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papotex
12-06-2007, 10:09 PM
just watched the tuskegee airman in history chanels dogfights, what a great show!

sluging it out against 109s 190s and 262s!

the history chanel should had aired these shows at the begining of their second season, instead they aired aparently old shows left over from their first productions, making lots of people lose interest.

in these shows they have been showing this week is obvious the quality of production is better

papotex
12-06-2007, 10:09 PM
just watched the tuskegee airman in history chanels dogfights, what a great show!

sluging it out against 109s 190s and 262s!

the history chanel should had aired these shows at the begining of their second season, instead they aired aparently old shows left over from their first productions, making lots of people lose interest.

in these shows they have been showing this week is obvious the quality of production is better

CraigNT
12-06-2007, 10:53 PM
Yea, I just got through watching that also, and I agree it was am awesome show!! I didn't realize that they were so successful in aerial combat... I knew of their discipline with regards to escorting the "heavies" but didn't know that they had so many kills and even with Me-262s!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Y0RGO
12-07-2007, 12:37 AM
P51 is spectaculere aeroplan and Afrika American is spectaculere piLot, yes?

http://www.jetplanes.co.uk/vintageaircraft/mustangandcorsairformation12cm.jpg

Esel1964
12-07-2007, 01:21 AM
I've watched most of the "Dogfights" since the beginning,and I think that was one of the best yet! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bearcat99
12-07-2007, 05:51 AM
You all know how I feel.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Charles McGee is a member of my chapter of TAI.. (Tuskegee Airmen Inc.) What a nice man... I thought the episode on Pruitt & Archer was good too.... Pruitt was killed in a training accident in 45.. It would be so great if we could get the kinds of airplane skins like on that show..

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 08:24 AM
The episode was very good and the pilots all show that they are a quite classy bunch of excellent guys. Their outstanding exploits are well known by anyone that follows ww2 aviation.

What I didn't particulary like was all the emphasis on the airmen shooting down the Nazi wonder weapon the me-262. This is how the show's producers always go light on the details in most every episode.

If one knows a little historical fact about that time the Germans were putting many many very low time begining pilots in that aircraft. People who should have never been at the controls of any plane and especially a brand new experimental jet fighter.

The shows producers kept going on and on about how wonderful an accomplisment this was. In actuality this wasn't all that hard to do. Most of these pilots could barely fly the plane! They certainly had no clue how to use it properly. A few 262 units were different and had outstanding pilots but these were the exception. From the numbers of jets the unit was involved with these weren't one of them.

The airmen certainly were outstanding pilots and real heroes for what they accompolished and had to put up with while doing it and deserved a lot more then they got from the airforce that is for certain.

I just wish the shows producers would get their facts a little straighter in all shows. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LEBillfish
12-07-2007, 08:28 AM
Without going into a lot of detail and most deffinately no debate.....Kudo's to the Tuskegee Airmen who endured like mountains unmoving and rose above the expectations of others. That alone regardless of combat accomplishments earning my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

waffen-79
12-07-2007, 08:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

excellent episode, I want to sse it again this weekend

pacettid
12-07-2007, 08:55 AM
A big ~S~ to the Tuskegee Airmen!

"Dogfights" definitely has its "warts" but it sure beats the heck outta watching the latest "Britney Spears" sound bitehttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Y0RGO
12-07-2007, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Most of these pilots could barely fly the plane! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are say most?

What is evidense you presents for suport this felling?

You are have track, yes?

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Y0RGO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Most of these pilots could barely fly the plane! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are say most?

What is evidense you presents for suport this felling?

You are have track, yes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tracks? no... This isn't Il-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif This is real historical fact.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

give you one source right now though.

"Rolling Thunder" by Ican Randall

Jet combat from ww 2 to the Gulf war

Please don't ask my to quote passages Better for you to look this all up in depth and see for yourself. That way you will really learn someihing.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

besides mu eyes are too tired for all that nonsense.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Y0RGO
12-07-2007, 10:45 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

papotex
12-07-2007, 12:41 PM
about the 262s being easy to shoot, well i understand that if the mustangs were within range and in a good position to shoot at the jet in the first place, since the 262s were mostly going in a straight line trying to gain speed to get away....

we still kicked their uber *** non the less

clayman_52
12-07-2007, 01:06 PM
That was one of the best ... and like some of you I've seen all of them.

Showed it to our classes at school and the kids where stunned. My co-teacher is Charles Bussey' son (302nd FS). That made it real special.

Swivet
12-07-2007, 01:17 PM
Now if the guns in game were as deadly as those CGI mustang models http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif....Great episodes tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Xiolablu3
12-07-2007, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Y0RGO:
P51 is spectaculere aeroplan and Afrika American is spectaculere piLot, yes?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, you are right Yorgo, Billy, Bandit, HayateAce !


P51 won da war!!

Xiolablu3
12-07-2007, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The episode was very good and the pilots all show that they are a quite classy bunch of excellent guys. Their outstanding exploits are well known by anyone that follows ww2 aviation.

What I didn't particulary like was all the emphasis on the airmen shooting down the Nazi wonder weapon the me-262. This is how the show's producers always go light on the details in most every episode.

If one knows a little historical fact about that time the Germans were putting many many very low time begining pilots in that aircraft. People who should have never been at the controls of any plane and especially a brand new experimental jet fighter.

The shows producers kept going on and on about how wonderful an accomplisment this was. In actuality this wasn't all that hard to do. Most of these pilots could barely fly the plane! They certainly had no clue how to use it properly. A few 262 units were different and had outstanding pilots but these were the exception. From the numbers of jets the unit was involved with these weren't one of them.

The airmen certainly were outstanding pilots and real heroes for what they accompolished and had to put up with while doing it and deserved a lot more then they got from the airforce that is for certain.

I just wish the shows producers would get their facts a little straighter in all shows. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It was mostly Aces and well experienced piltos who got to fly the Me262.

Y0RGO
12-07-2007, 02:47 PM
I am not understanded in yours?

Rjel
12-07-2007, 04:22 PM
I hadn't realized any of the Red Tails had made Ace status. Not that not having an Ace in their group would've made their accomplishments any less spectacular, but it must have been a tough pill to swallow for some of those who fought against their even being able to fly a combat airplane. Great episode.

M2morris
12-07-2007, 04:39 PM
I saw that show too, it was excellent! The RedTails really put a wuppin on em. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
The Tuskegee AirMen
S! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Schwarz.13
12-07-2007, 06:50 PM
Well i haven't seen this episode - i live in the UK so the only Dogfights episodes i can see are the ones posted on YouTube.

As for the Tuskegee airmen though (and correct me if i'm wrong) - i love how the the US Air Force Top Brass set up this fighter group to 'prove' that Afro-Americans could not possibly be efficient combat fighter-pilots, like they were somehow less capable due to the hue of their skin!

The words Predjudice, Irony and Poetic Justice come to mind! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 07:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The episode was very good and the pilots all show that they are a quite classy bunch of excellent guys. Their outstanding exploits are well known by anyone that follows ww2 aviation.

What I didn't particulary like was all the emphasis on the airmen shooting down the Nazi wonder weapon the me-262. This is how the show's producers always go light on the details in most every episode.

If one knows a little historical fact about that time the Germans were putting many many very low time begining pilots in that aircraft. People who should have never been at the controls of any plane and especially a brand new experimental jet fighter.

The shows producers kept going on and on about how wonderful an accomplisment this was. In actuality this wasn't all that hard to do. Most of these pilots could barely fly the plane! They certainly had no clue how to use it properly. A few 262 units were different and had outstanding pilots but these were the exception. From the numbers of jets the unit was involved with these weren't one of them.

The airmen certainly were outstanding pilots and real heroes for what they accompolished and had to put up with while doing it and deserved a lot more then they got from the airforce that is for certain.

I just wish the shows producers would get their facts a little straighter in all shows. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It was mostly Aces and well experienced piltos who got to fly the Me262. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly. This was what I thought for quite a while too. Yes there were special ace units that used the plane but as more of the 262's became available and as the supply of aviation piston engine fuel became quite scarce the luftwaffe transisioned many if not most of it's new pilots into jets. This had really bad results. These pilots were not even close to being ready to fly the experimental jet. Heck even seasoned ace pilots had trouble with the completely different operation of the engines and operational procedures for the jet.

Then there was their operational use. The jet was really not a fighter in true fighter terms. It was a bomber interceptor. many of these pilots tried to dogfight in the jets which could easily be outmanauvered. They never realised that the only thing that would save their hide was the speed of the 262. The 262 could be called the original jet fighter "blow through interceptor" One pass and away was where it was most effective. Any pilot that forgot that fact and by that I mean any pilot and he was certain to be dead meat.

btw this is exactly how the new Luftwaffe many many years later used their older F-4 Phantoms when newer more manauverable advanced Mig fighters came out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bearcat99
12-07-2007, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
I hadn't realized any of the Red Tails had made Ace status. Not that not having an Ace in their group would've made their accomplishments any less spectacular, but it must have been a tough pill to swallow for some of those who fought against their even being able to fly a combat airplane. Great episode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There should have been more.... but in many cases the 332nd had claims denied... plus the fact that their job when flying escort was to protect the bombers.. and Ben Davis was adamant about that and all the men respected him.. even the ones that didnt like him, so when the attacking fighters were driven off they went back to the bombers. Plus unlike some other units, especially towards the end of the war ground kills were not counted.

Rjel
12-07-2007, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:


There should have been more.... but in many cases the 332nd had claims denied... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has there been any effort made in recent years to document any of the disallowed claims? It would seem that with the information and archives available nowadays some of those claims could be confirmed.

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">disallowed claims </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every fighter squadron in every airforce in the world in ww2 had disallowed claims. I can't think of any that didn't. Also flying close escort was a requirment for all american fighter squadrons in ww 2 until that requirment was changed after many more long distant fighters and pilots became available to cover both the missions of attack and also of defense meaning escorting the bombers.

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 07:56 PM
from what I have heard the american airforce really shoot themselves in the foot if they wanted to prove black airman were inferior to white airman. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One ). They took only the absolutely smartest and brightest and most worthy black applicants they could find.

and two). Not wanting them to join the airforce all that soon they trained them far better and more comprehensively then any other fighter pilots coming out of the aviation schools! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Rjel
12-07-2007, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">disallowed claims </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Every fighter squadron in every airforce in the world in ww2 had disallowed claims. I can't think of any that didn't. Also flying close escort was a requirment for all american fighter squadrons in ww 2 until that requirment was changed after many more long distant fighters and pilots became available to cover both the missions of attack and also of defense meaning escorting the bombers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't my point. The USAF has revised victory claims in the past. Many WWII era pilots had their totals revised, in most cases revised down. My thought was that perhaps with solid evidence some other deserving Red Tails might claim their rightful place along side other U.S. fighter aces.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
from what I have heard the american airforce really shoot themselves in the foot if they wanted to prove black airman were inferior to white airman. Big Grin

One ). They took only the absolutely smartest and brightest and most worthy black applicants they could find.

and two). Not wanting them to join the airforce all that soon they trained them far better and more comprehensively then any other fighter pilots coming out of the aviation schools! Too Happy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. The wash out rate was very high for all U.S. pilots. The only major requirement that was relaxed as time went on was the need for two years of collage before flight training in the USAAF.

BSS_Sniper
12-07-2007, 08:32 PM
I think this is the first thread having to do with the History channel that not one person flamed. Why is that? Not to go OT, but it makes me wonder.

stalkervision
12-07-2007, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not true. The wash out rate was very high for all U.S. pilots. The only major requirement that was relaxed as time went on was the need for two years of collage before flight training in the USAAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the washout rate was of course high. I believe you may find the tuskegee airmen weren't just "average" college students.

BillyTheKid_22
12-08-2007, 11:04 AM
I know!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif