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funkster319
04-30-2008, 06:21 AM
Ok this might have been discussed before but after searching I can't seem to find anything relevant so.....

When fighting in MP, I'm finding that the AI gunners in bombers etc are overpowered! They are absolutely, unrealistically (IMO)accurate!

Is there a suitable tactic to avoid being gunned down by them? I have tried BnZ to some effect and also side attacks using high / low yo yo's but they still seem to be able to get thier little beady AI eyes right on me.

Also are blind spots modeled at all in IL2? As I've also tried a low six attack from a boom to NO effect :O(

Any suggestions?

funkster319
04-30-2008, 06:21 AM
Ok this might have been discussed before but after searching I can't seem to find anything relevant so.....

When fighting in MP, I'm finding that the AI gunners in bombers etc are overpowered! They are absolutely, unrealistically (IMO)accurate!

Is there a suitable tactic to avoid being gunned down by them? I have tried BnZ to some effect and also side attacks using high / low yo yo's but they still seem to be able to get thier little beady AI eyes right on me.

Also are blind spots modeled at all in IL2? As I've also tried a low six attack from a boom to NO effect :O(

Any suggestions?

general_kalle
04-30-2008, 06:54 AM
blind spots are moddeled.
gunners cant shoot all over.

dont attack from behind or you will be swiss cheese.
everything else is better.

SeaFireLIV
04-30-2008, 08:11 AM
I can see this becoming a looong thread!

AI gunners are somewhat unrealistically accurate in IL2 in that they do not seem to suffer from the kind of inaccuracies a real gunner would in real life. Shake, appears not to bother them, or clouds, or even spinning to a fiery death!

However, you should never attack any bomber from it`s dead six as you will end up as Swiss cheese, as in reality. there are blind spots in all bombers, but you need to know the bomber! Check a plan on each bomber type you see and discover its position and basic arcs of fire. I`ve sideled right up to enemy bombers on their lowish 5 oclock cos the gunner can`t reach me there... of course, I still can`t get a shot, but I can fly by him all day in that position!

High B&Z attacks (with some rudder) work well as long as you keep the speed up. With practise, you`ll be picking them off.

Just don`t daredevil them in that fixated way because hitting the gunner area will NOT spoil their accuracy at all unless you kill them!

BWaltteri
04-30-2008, 09:44 AM
U-2's - try to down them with a Ki-27!

DKoor
04-30-2008, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BWaltteri:
U-2's - try to down them with a Ki-27! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Snipe 4 PK...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Could as well be best chance to down it.

DKoor
04-30-2008, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Ok this might have been discussed before but after searching I can't seem to find anything relevant so..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, was discussed many times, issue was/is that popular.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
When fighting in MP, I'm finding that the AI gunners in bombers etc are overpowered! They are absolutely, unrealistically (IMO)accurate! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's quite true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Is there a suitable tactic to avoid being gunned down by them? I have tried BnZ to some effect and also side attacks using high / low yo yo's but they still seem to be able to get thier little beady AI eyes right on me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>BnZ is the only way if you want to avoid hit... I've tried even with head ons (H2H), but sometimes they hit me hard even this way, especially if my approach is with no corrections in heading.

Anyhow... you may see these tracks and see that it can be done effectively thru BnZ;
P-40M vs 4xHe-111's (http://www.esnips.com/doc/7bed0e22-1bc3-4ed4-b270-f3ecfcdefa4c/DKoor40M-4xHe111-405)
Hurricane vs 4xHe-111's (http://www.esnips.com/doc/efa646ab-a81e-4ade-9201-58b51d5487da/KunaHurri-vs-4xHe111-405)
these are both offline tracks, featuring BnZ attacks on Ai ACE bombers... however take note that humans, while are generally smarter than Ai can give you either harder or easier time that Ai bombers - no rules with humans.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Also are blind spots modeled at all in IL2? As I've also tried a low six attack from a boom to NO effect :O( </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't really know about this... as it is, I always resolve to attacks that provide min danger and max efficiency vs bombers... i.e. most cowardice 4 best effect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Any suggestions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Wildnoob
04-30-2008, 03:22 PM
I don't think AI gunners are overpowerd. ok, maybe in veteran or ace difficult level.

but in fact, you have to know that the gunner have a stable gun plataform, and he will probably be prepared to fire at you much more sooner then you.

when I play with bombers online, the most comm scene I see is figthers get behind me and trying to fire from behind.

the gunner is waiting you, give him a surprise is the best tactic (I know AI is not human http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif).

try fire at front, try fire in high speed passes. I never have many problems to hit bombers using this tactics. in fact, wat happen is that chances of the gunner hit you will drop, but will remain, mainly with allied bombers like the B-29 and the B-17 wich have gun stations on virually every point.

the best way is on high speed passes.

funkster319
04-30-2008, 03:29 PM
Yeah I've tried High Speed Boom passes coming in on the bombers 8 o clock with a step rudder dive...still they seem to be able to hit me a few times....which brings me to another point...do they have 88's in the bombers or what!!!! seems to me they do ALOT of dmg!! It's like one hit and your engine is toast!!!!! and probably missing half your aileron too!

DKoor
04-30-2008, 03:33 PM
Also offline...

Check the map, check all possible circumstances...

Meaning... if enemy bombers are going to do fly for a long time especially if over territory which is controlled by your forces, damage like black smoke from one engine or fuel leaks play important part! In some particular cases vital, really...

For instance in Pacific make one spray pass on G4M and make him fuel leak... he's usually dead in the water - Pacific maps are large they need to fly for "hours" (doesn't matter if you skip time that is).

Also with thick black smoke pouring from wing tanks they are prone to heavy fuel waste and from engine - soon engine stoppage...

It all plays important part, really.

All you need to know is what's your target vulnerable point and hit that hard.

In most cases it'll be enough, i.e. you don't need to set them on fire, PK them, dewing them etc. to eventually score a kill.

Now online DF is totally different in that, bases are usually closer and "kill steal" plays part. However COOPs rectify this problem somewhat.

R_Target
04-30-2008, 04:46 PM
Use overhead, high-side, and flat-side gunnery runs. Hit the leader first. Don't stick around to observe damage.

VW-IceFire
04-30-2008, 05:20 PM
They may be a bit overdone but most of the time I see people making attacks online from dead 6 or with very little angle meaning they are an easy mark for even the worst of gunners. The IL-2 gunners don't suffer from some real world maladies but employing the proper techniques will allow you to attack unscathed except of course the random chance shot from a bomber box spraying shots all over.

Does someone remember a link to that RAF bomber attack tutorial with the Meteors or Vampires attacking B-29s (simulating an attack on Russian Tu-4s)? That was a great technique that the AI gunners cannot cope with at all.

Involved attacking from the side and slightly high.

Wildnoob
04-30-2008, 05:44 PM
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1812595429445699346

jarink
05-01-2008, 09:26 AM
Don't fly in a straight line. The AI gunners usually have problems tracking a curved (or better yet, irregular) pursuit line.

BWaltteri
05-02-2008, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BWaltteri:
U-2's - try to down them with a Ki-27! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Snipe 4 PK...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Could as well be best chance to down it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried head on passes, but apparently I hit the pilot in the one I brought down.

LovroSL
05-02-2008, 04:22 AM
BnZ from their high 5, 8, 2, 10 o clock in a slight curve an than yoyo left and right until you feel that you will not be able to vertically escape their killzone in the next pass, break away climb and repeat.

You still may get peppered a bit but generally the only thing that can stop you is running out of ammo.

IDF_Raam
05-02-2008, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:

Meaning... if enemy bombers are going to do fly for a long time especially if over territory which is controlled by your forces, damage like black smoke from one engine or fuel leaks play important part! In some particular cases vital, really...

For instance in Pacific make one spray pass on G4M and make him fuel leak... he's usually dead in the water - Pacific maps are large they need to fly for "hours" (doesn't matter if you skip time that is).

Also with thick black smoke pouring from wing tanks they are prone to heavy fuel waste and from engine - soon engine stoppage...

It all plays important part, really.

All you need to know is what's your target vulnerable point and hit that hard.

In most cases it'll be enough, i.e. you don't need to set them on fire, PK them, dewing them etc. to eventually score a kill.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is very correct, but the main goal and challenge is to stop them before they hit the target.

In most cases - at least to my observation - they continue to fly to target even after getting hits.

So when I get a late kill, after the bomber have completed the bombrun, I still fill it is a failure

SeaFireLIV
05-02-2008, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IDF_Raam:



In most cases - at least to my observation - they continue to fly to target even after getting hits.

So when I get a late kill, after the bomber have completed the bombrun, I still fill it is a failure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forget the fuselage, you`ll fill her up with a lot of holes before anything gets affected if you haven`t run out of ammo by then. If you want to take a bomber down quickly you must focus on things like the bomber engines, wings and if possible, the cockpit. I often just aim at ONE main wing and just keep shooting until part of it falls off, then it`s most likely to drop bombs early and try to head home.

Look at it this way... There`s only so much one fighter can do against a group of bombers. In reality, a fighter would be pleased just to down one bomber. The job is for you all as a group to take down 4-5 bombers or more.

DKoor
05-02-2008, 01:47 PM
Yeah... IRL rest of the bombers in the group would probably pi$$ in their pants to see their buddies dying... it would certainly shake their morale and it wouldn't be a big surprise if they just jettison their load and run for home.
I read such several accounts of Ju-87 groups on Eastern Front... when they spotted VVS formation they sometimes just jettisoned their bombs and run away.

Also, if the interception is made when they are on their final bombing run (aligning on target - final approach with bomb bays open) they are unable to evade unless they want to hit the target!
That must be exploited as well...

M_Gunz
05-03-2008, 12:54 AM
On one of the IL2 release disks, maybe it was AEP, there was tracks made showing attacks on
bombers just to show how to and it can be done without AI gunners hitting you. Tracks, not
stories. From threads then and since I would guess that very few watched those at all.