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Stafroty
01-27-2006, 06:52 AM
Hi, does anyone really bothers to think how realistic are those explosions when plane blows up totally in air/ground?

I find then really inaccurate in realism way, say, i shoot at enemy plane which caught in fire, i fly pass it and then it explodes some 50m behind me and i lose wing or such, not so realistic.
How can this be possible? is there any valid point which says its realistic? or is it also hollywoodism "trick" that makes game more (movie)"realistic".

There is Document made for TV, called Myth Busters, its shown in discovery channel at least in US. There they testes how they can make Fuel to explode when vaporized in air, in closed container. they couldnt make any of those BIG bangs which we have in game. and in game, we have only fuel and vapours of it in fuel tank, not correct mixture of both, which is needed to make gentle BUFF effect, still its not even close to high explosives power, far far back from blast effect power.. Fuel air explosivs are different thing (FAE) but those are not using fuel for making that effect, but an easy to light up explosive powder, dunno what type off. but its not fuel (gasoline)

so, i say that plane explosions are way off when compared to reality, so to say they are unrealistic.


This is the thing which makes its REALLY dangerous to shoot up planes are close range, and thats what was the tactics what top aces used for being sure of the kill, gettin close as possible before opening fire. if planes would blow up like that, there would not beeen that kind of tactics used, at all, or if used, no pilots survived after using that tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 06:52 AM
Hi, does anyone really bothers to think how realistic are those explosions when plane blows up totally in air/ground?

I find then really inaccurate in realism way, say, i shoot at enemy plane which caught in fire, i fly pass it and then it explodes some 50m behind me and i lose wing or such, not so realistic.
How can this be possible? is there any valid point which says its realistic? or is it also hollywoodism "trick" that makes game more (movie)"realistic".

There is Document made for TV, called Myth Busters, its shown in discovery channel at least in US. There they testes how they can make Fuel to explode when vaporized in air, in closed container. they couldnt make any of those BIG bangs which we have in game. and in game, we have only fuel and vapours of it in fuel tank, not correct mixture of both, which is needed to make gentle BUFF effect, still its not even close to high explosives power, far far back from blast effect power.. Fuel air explosivs are different thing (FAE) but those are not using fuel for making that effect, but an easy to light up explosive powder, dunno what type off. but its not fuel (gasoline)

so, i say that plane explosions are way off when compared to reality, so to say they are unrealistic.


This is the thing which makes its REALLY dangerous to shoot up planes are close range, and thats what was the tactics what top aces used for being sure of the kill, gettin close as possible before opening fire. if planes would blow up like that, there would not beeen that kind of tactics used, at all, or if used, no pilots survived after using that tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rr9
01-27-2006, 07:12 AM
If a plane explodes, there will probably be quite a few plane parts flying nearby. These could and did cause all sorts of damage: engines stopping and so on. So it's not just the pressure effect.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 07:36 AM
rr9, and then, where comes the force, which causes those parts to fly faster than plane itself in way where plane before explosion was going? where comes that pressure/blast which puts em in motion?

Can you explain me this please?

MercilessFatBoy
01-27-2006, 08:19 AM
Stafroty dont u know that planes are flying bombs? wiht all that fuel in their fuel tanks... oxigen tanks and so on.... besides u need to be real close to get blasted by airplane explosion... tray not to fly along a burning plane.. it is not smart... i imidietly brake away if i set on fire a plane.... and blasting them at close range it is not good idea... joyfull but dangerous....

havent you ever seen a real car explode???

Odranoel1
01-27-2006, 08:46 AM
Since the 402m patch I have also found out the hard way that the attacked plane could become a deadly bomb for the attacker.

I usually bomm and zoom and open fire at very high speed (700+) and very near target (150 m). At this sort of speed, it is a half-a-second burst before collision. But the hitting power is ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Whether what I used to do is historically correct I dont know. Whether the power of the explosion is now exggerated, I dont know either.

But the fact is I now have to open fire from farther away and break asap to survive! Less adrenalin, less success, but still an awesome game!

-S-Odranoel1

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 09:34 AM
"havent you ever seen a real car explode???"

what is unreal car?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and yea, i seen fire in cars fueltank, in hole where you input gas in tank. still no detonation as we got in game. and, about Oxygen bottle, it isnt as big to create such BIG blast as in game. Just compare the explosion force to 100kg, 250kg and 500kg bomb explosion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif in game Plane explosion is way off. I know that parts that departs from plane are dangerous, but, i dont understand what force is affectin them to fly faster than the plane itself. in rearwards of forwards. that what i dont understand.

MercilessFatBoy. please, give me some source how you can exlode fueltank better than 100kg of HE with bigger effect when fuel is as liguid state in fuel tank, or as with fuel vapours and vapurs only with no air in it. how can you explode it as we can now in game? to make FAE bomb, you have to spread fuel in air, get it vaporize at really exact state of mixture between air and fuel fumes,. and still you dont get big kaboom from it. in engine, there is as well high pressure when air/fuel fume mixture is lighted up, to make power enought to make engine create power for it to move parts and itself for being useable.

tigertalon
01-27-2006, 09:37 AM
I can recall a story of an allied escort pilot, who reported B17 blew up suddenly (probably due to direct 88mm or 128mm flak hit), and the explosion was so strong, it ripped the wing off another nearby B17.

Don't have a source tough...

rr9
01-27-2006, 09:41 AM
I've seen several cases where a fighter plane gets hit, probably to a fuel tank. This causes an explosion which sends big pieces of plane flying in the air. If the attacking plane happens to hit such piece, it's very possible that it causes enough damage that both planes go down. Sometimes the explosion didn't rip the whole plane apart, but sent this torch towards the ground. When it hit the ground/sea, then there was this big fireball. But sometimes big part of the plane just vanished in blast. No idea how close you'd have to be to lose a wing or such. There were also cases where bombers fly in close formation. One explodes and one or more others also crash.

Are those exaggerated in power or do some planes explode too often? Very difficult to say.

If I'd pick some explosion that is too powerful, some bombs for sure. Look what V1s now do.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 09:42 AM
also. take information that was that B17 on on a way at target or going home? and also, did it just fell over another B17 or what? or did wing depart and hit plane next to it bit behind or such?

Chuck_Older
01-27-2006, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
rr9, and then, where comes the force, which causes those parts to fly faster than plane itself in way where plane before explosion was going? where comes that pressure/blast which puts em in motion?

Can you explain me this please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can. These are very loose terms, but this gives you the general idea here:

The 'force' is the release of energy caused by the explosion...the energy was stored in whatever exploded, of course. Fuel comes redily to mind

The shock wave is the thing that causes the real damage in this case. The explosion makes the air compress into a wall of force that extends outwards

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">big pieces of plane flying in the air. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea, pieces departed from plane, still keeping same vector with plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and if oxygen bottle is hit, it isnt as critical as some want to think it would be. There is at least one such thing happened in Finland war against Russia, where russian AAA /fighter , cant remember which one, hitted one Finnish Fighter, under the pilot seat with cannon, there was Oxygen bottles under pilot seats, which stopped the ammo, but exploded up, sended coverage of the plane bottom away as pressures exited that way, cos pilot seat was so strtongly tightened to plane strugture, there was only one way where pressure could go and it was down. so plane didnt go down and pilot did survive, i think he didnt get a scratch from it. only mental probs and worry for a bit when it happened. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chuck_Older
01-27-2006, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
also. take information that was that B17 on on a way at target or going home? and also, did it just fell over another B17 or what? or did wing depart and hit plane next to it bit behind or such? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're wondering if that B-17 had it's bomb load detonate, something to remember is that when explosives are set off in a way that they weren't designed to be detonated, a "low order" detonation can occur. It's almost impossible to predict what kind of force the low order detonation will be, but typically it is les than it's intended force from what I understand

Read up on explosives a little, I think you may be under some miscobceptions about them and how they work

Oh-

And Myth Busters...they didn't do that test correctly. They forgot a few things. For instance- they did that to se if a car would explode...and they didn't do it with a car, with it's hot exhaust pipe right there, a pressurised fuel line with a pump drawing fuel out of the tank (run by electricty!). They didn't simulate the test very well at all. I saw the episode you are talking about. I also saw another one concerning ballistics that they totally messed up because they didn't think it through

Good show, but don't take it as Gospel

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 09:55 AM
Chuck Older, then tell me how you can fume up the fuel in correct mixture rate before you light it up, oh, of course, you gotta Spread it widely, to make use of all that Energy from fuel to make it an Blast wave with capability to do something, if you cant, it just burns up without doing anything.

you have seen burnign Zeros going down in flames. you seen lots of planes takin hits. why in hell did they even make self sealin tanks in Britain, if germans were using cannons, if fuel tanks were in "real" so easy to make explode??? there is not much sense what you guys think. Think something which not from Films what you learned? and about exploding car. Ca you fatbiyHK tell me where did you seen car explode?
ive seen in films cars explode when bumbers hit eacttogether, in some cases no explosion, i can see same thing happen in real.
I was part in one film what was made when i was in army, there was situation where Car was shot with Anti tank rocket, and HEAT round, hollow charge or how you name it there, anyway, car exploded , not beceuse of hit but because we wanted it to explode by installing in it some 2kg (4 pnds) of TNT which we exploded almost at same time when rocket hit the car http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifin shows they use dynamite quite often for same result, if its kind of stunt act.

Chuck_Older
01-27-2006, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
Chuck Older, then tell me how you can fume up the fuel in correct mixture rate before you light it up, oh, of course, you gotta Spread it widely, to make use of all that Energy from fuel to make it an Blast wave with capability to do something, if you cant, it just burns up without doing anything.

you have seen burnign Zeros going down in flames. you seen lots of planes takin hits. why in hell did they even make self sealin tanks in Britain, if germans were using cannons, if fuel tanks were in "real" so easy to make explode??? there is not much sense what you guys think. Think something which not from Films what you learned? and about exploding car. Ca you fatbiyHK tell me where did you seen car explode?
ive seen in films cars explode when bumbers hit eacttogether, in some cases no explosion, i can see same thing happen in real.
I was part in one film what was made when i was in army, there was situation where Car was shot with Anti tank rocket, and HEAT round, hollow charge or how you name it there, anyway, car exploded , not beceuse of hit but because we wanted it to explode by installing in it some 2kg (4 pnds) of TNT which we exploded almost at same time when rocket hit the car http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifin shows they use dynamite quite often for same result, if its kind of stunt act. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No

You don't understand combustion at all. Liquid fuel doesn't burn. It's the vapor. If I pour gas out of a can, and toss a match into the puddle...the match might even just snuff out

Complicate that with the need for a set volume of air to cause an explosion

The puddle of gas I just described will NOT burn. It's vapor will.

If that same puddle of gas is in a colsed container, it may explode when the vapor is ignited

You are asking why things are like this both in the game, and in real life. You don't really know what they do in real life, but you're telling me I'm wrong about it...please, read up on things like combustion and flashpoint and such, don't just assume you're right because you saw a TV show

I'm not saying you're wrong about the ggame. You asked why an explosion could do certain things, and I explained it

I'm sorry if you don't beleive me, but that isn't really my problem

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:02 AM
High explosives wont explode easily, depending what HE are used. like TNT needs some 5000m/sec power to explode, Pentrite much less.

if AAA round, which were HE rounds, was timer type, whihc hit bomb load, entered inside bomb, exploded there, it for sure was more than enought to exolode bomb and bombs around it, for sure.

do you happen to understand, thatn you can hold 10KG of TNT over your head, while friend of yours shoots thru it with assault rifle?
it wont Go off. but it will , if you set it in fire and then shoot at it.

and yea, i didnt take it as gospel. but that was one point for many of you that things aint such as many would want to think.

Still, you are not to understand, that how can you make fuel explode, if they werent able to make it explode violently enought to make some true damage, as you remember, they did it inside, and still they werent even able to broke that buildings windows off.

I just ask you to think with own brains.
I know that Oleg is capable of thinking himself, as he is wise man. and thats what is needed.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:07 AM
that is true that vapors are the one which burn. same thing is with wood what you burn, its the smoke which burn. or woodgas.
Im not lookin for Physical terms here, but how things are. you can use what ever terms to explanate things, still truth is there and stays, no matter how much we articulate, make fights and wars about it, truth never chances, only thins where to believe.


and about closed container, yea, it will "explode" if there is mixture good for lightin up, but explosion means that its just pressure which wants to come out from container, after that, there isnt a real explosion.

what is explosion? what rate of burning is defining when its explosion when just fast burning? i rate fuel "explosion" just as fast burning.

Chuck_Older
01-27-2006, 10:07 AM
You're assuming two different types of things are the same- you are mixing the idea of detonation with combustion

Think whatever you like, I'm not wasting any more of my unpaid lunch half-hour trying to explain thigns to you

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:13 AM
chuck older, why you attack against terms im using, but not the idea i am here sayin is wrong? yo have to notice, that im not an native english speaker, so, i cannot and will not use some kind of translator for just using the right terms you seem to need to understand the issue. Look not the words, but the meaning of my message. only this way you can understand the other.

Said a traveler to one of the disciples, "i have traveled a great distance to listen to the Master, but i find his words quite ordinary."

"dont listen to his words. Listen to his message."

"How does one do that?"

"Take hold of a sentence that he says. Shake it well till all the words drop off. What is left will set your heart on fire."


----
MEANING
A Meditation by Anthony de Mello, SJ

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:14 AM
i am not wasting my time with you, you are with me as you assume and think just not what i say here.
Blame yourself for not understanding the message.

rr9
01-27-2006, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">take information that was that B17 on on a way at target or going home? and also, did it just fell over another B17 or what? or did wing depart and hit plane next to it bit behind or such? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are according to what I've read. The pilot descriptions weren't detailed enough that I could answer these question.

"you have seen burnign Zeros going down in flames. you seen lots of planes takin hits. why in hell did they even make self sealin tanks in Britain, if germans were using cannons, if fuel tanks were in "real" so easy to make explode??? there is not much sense what you guys think. Think something which not from Films what you learned?"

The German fighters I've seen explode did so because of US fighter MG hits. I don't know which parts of the plane were hit or why exactly there was an explosion, but it *did* happen sometimes. And the films I refered to were B&W gun camera, not some after war made up stuff.

"pieces departed from plane, still keeping same vector with plane"

No, that's how it looks when you cause small damage and pieces "fall off". When there's a bigger explosion, pieces fly first to many directions before they start falling down.

Damage modeling is supposed to be improved in BoB. With fewer planes maybe these explosion effects will also get closer to how it really was. But how accurate can it get? I'd think in most such crash cases they might have known some area where a plane went down, but not things like "oxygen bottle was hit". If plane exploded, not many crew members survived.

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 12:01 PM
Pre-V4.01, you could fly 10m over a plane exploding into the ground and it did absolutely nothing to you.

Now, I feel they've gone the other way too far. There is a definite "safe" zone one would like to be past when a plane they are shooting at explodes mid-air or while hitting the ground. Plane explosions are a little too much, IMO.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 12:40 PM
in film, guncamera film, yuo see pieces goin away from plane, but, pieces have still same way, you see only one aspect from view of guncam.

and, you can make explosion in real life(not one like in game) when you hit: oxygen bottle, fuel tank, ammo storage, like the round tips with HE inside em, or just powder shell of the shell, all em makes boom of its own.
Still,
gasoline dont go big boom as we have in game
Oxygen bottle dotn go big boom as in game
ammo storage wont make such big boom as in game
or anything else in real world can cause such unrealistic boom where all the plane goes off..

and , its not the pieces which does the damage in game now,its the shotwave, you cant see any particle hit ur plane, still you get damage. so its shock wave. or same explosion model what bombs have. i rate explosion damage to be same as 250kg bomb has. same radius. is that realistic?

so, what we got in plane which makes our planes explode totally, which were not in real planes, real planes lost their wing, when exploded, or engine departed when nose ammo stogage box exploded, but most of the plane kept intact. not like in game. so, game concept defenders, prove me WRONG with information, not with your believings. believing in something isnt information, its just an opinion.

rr9
01-27-2006, 01:20 PM
Stafroty wrote:
"in film, guncamera film, yuo see pieces goin away from plane, but, pieces have still same way, you see only one aspect from view of guncam."

Yes, when there is a *small* explosion. The kind that in game is shown with a puff of smoke and then some small pieces of debris flying towards you if you're firing from 6. But there are also bigger blasts, like where the whole plane is inside the explosion. If you happen to see some part coming off, it may fly quite different route, depending on the direction where the blast sent it.

Like in my previous message I already wrote, I am not saying that the blast power isn't exaggerated or that some effects aren't too common. But those explosions did really happen.
I made a quick web search and found a link that maybe has more than just opinion. I haven't seen those films, but there are some descriptions on what is happening in them.

Go here
http://rareaviation.com/guncaaceu19v.html

and scroll down a bit to see those dates like "March 6, 1944"
You can see several examples of those things you write didn't happen.

Jetbuff
01-27-2006, 01:55 PM
At 50m, I doubt the concussive effect is enough (barring a massive explosion like a large bombload) to affect another aircraft aside from bouncing it around. However, flying shrapnel from said explosion will most definitely damage/destroy a nearby aircraft if it reaches it. Indeed, wasn't Hartmann damaged that same way several times?

Maybe - and this is just a guess - the game does not track the actual aircraft pieces that fly off in an explosion but instead uses a simple blast radius calculation to apply damage to nearby objects. It makes programming sense for performance reasons to not try to bother tracking whether or not an actual piece of shrapnel (or several) hit a nearby plane and just use a blast radius.

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 02:11 PM
I've actually hit "live" pieces from an exploded plane. Like the way B-25s explode into large pieces and not just disintegrate.

However, it does appear that they are applying a specific sized radius to the blasts, starting in V4.01.

Jetbuff
01-27-2006, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
However, it does appear that they are applying a specific sized radius to the blasts, starting in V4.01. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My guess is that to reduce CPU workload, only the graphical representation of the aircraft bits and pieces that fly off during an explosion is being modelled. i.e. there is no collision-modelling attached to these components once they separate from their parent aircraft in an explosion; although perhaps larger pieces like a wing that gets sawn off do get treated properly. To compensate, the blast radius is used instead.

This could be verified I guess with arcade mode in slow-motion to see if the flying bits and pieces actually correspond to the projectile arrows or not.

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 02:30 PM
The larger pieces do get treated as such. I've definitely been damaged by larger pieces of an exploding plane.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 04:17 PM
anyway, the blast effect of an plane is way too big, if its not carrying any bombs, and even if it would, the bombs would not go off pretty easy, if they are in safe mode.

hartman indeed was hit by enemy plane debris. how many times he got killed by them? or was he stupid as he did use that kind of tactics? i bet not, i bet he was well aware that he might get hit by plane debris, but he understood it lesser risk, way lesser risk than what we have now in herehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif we can be killed in our cockpit from debris of an exploding plane, which exploded behind our back, and the plane which exploded was flyin some 500kmh as were you, still those fragments or concussion damage kills you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif yea sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

there is something really wrong in this game. Game doesnt prefer of use historical tactics.
you cant go near enemy, or you smoke ur own engine if you shoot really close, because, fragments of your own cannon shells damages ur engine if you shoot close enought, sending you down, the the enemy you just shot at http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif is that realistic as well? i bet not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i can smoke my engine with 20mm cannon or with 30mm cannon, even machine guns sends some fragments, that you can notice when you nose down your plane on ground, when ur plane is upside down, you can hear hits on plane when u open fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so, i ask also that Maddoxs makes planes withstand own guns fragments http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and i hope that in bob at last, planes would lose covering plates whatever plane is covered with to depart from plane BEFORE plane explodes, and if that happens, they flew of in air and hits the following plane, with force depending the size and mass of an depris http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif there would not be needed many size and masses http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but still it would be nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
i would suck that "truth" from the balls more that this "truth" we have now, which we have to suck from the brown hole.

Jetbuff
01-27-2006, 05:03 PM
I have never had a problem avoiding the blast radius and I close to point blank range all the time. I suggest you try harder to avoid it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Is it realistic, I don't know, and will not get worked up over such a minor issue, especially if it is simply an artifact of a necessary computational shortcut.

Bottom line: it's a game and while more realism is welcome, there are limits to what can be achieved on a home PC with a $40 piece of software.

ronison
01-27-2006, 06:58 PM
Stafroty a few things here.

First off a gas tank can cause quite an explosion if the situation is right. Years ago there was a fire at Oregon State University. This was at the old printing building and was casued from a tar truck catching fire and "bubbling over" into the parking lot.

I got through the fire lines to find a friend and ran into another friend that was on the volenteer fire department there. He pointed to a burned out S-10 pickup truck and said "Do you see anything strange about that truck?" I didnt at the time and he pointed out to me that the frount axle was broken. He told me that he and a police officer, also standing and talking with me, had been standing about 70 yards away when the gas tank blew and sent the truck about 50 feet into the air. That officer and another volenteer fire figher confirmed what my friend said.

Now I dont know about you but to me sending a S-10 pickup truck into the air 50 ft into the air would take alot of force and the only sorce of energy that was there was heated gasoline in a 10 gallon tank.

Remember these planes are burning and so the pressure before detonation would be high to begin with, same with the S-10 truck, and so when detonated would cause a larger explosion than a tank that wasnt heated. Another possible cause of a greater explosion from a burning plane could be from ammunitions.

Now as for mith busters as said before they dont always run good experiments. One I saw that I can say is wrong was the one with the pop can in the car exploding from heat. I had this happen in my car and there was nothing esle but the 100 degree day we had to cause this to happen. I know it was an explosion also because the push in tab was actully pushed out. No one got into my car and shook the can and there is no way to "push" the tab out unless the contents did it.

When they ran that experiment they used a generic pop can not one from a known company. In the US most generic cans are made with heavier grade alunimum than the cans that Coke and Pepsi use. This would make the seal that gives way to need a higher pressure than a coke can. The other thing they did was set their oven at 350 degrees and left the can in there for five minutes. Now my question is was that enough time. What would have happened if they had left it in for an hr?

As for your original question on how can it take your wing off.... Well maybe some from the modling and some from fragments from the plane that blew up. Yes some fragments could get going into balistic speeds and some even large pieces could do this if shaped right, Im talking real life here. As for the game I can see this happining and I dont think it is wrong becaues of my for mentioned S-10 pickup and other potential explosives on board aircraft.

VW-IceFire
01-27-2006, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
Hi, does anyone really bothers to think how realistic are those explosions when plane blows up totally in air/ground?

I find then really inaccurate in realism way, say, i shoot at enemy plane which caught in fire, i fly pass it and then it explodes some 50m behind me and i lose wing or such, not so realistic.
How can this be possible? is there any valid point which says its realistic? or is it also hollywoodism "trick" that makes game more (movie)"realistic".

There is Document made for TV, called Myth Busters, its shown in discovery channel at least in US. There they testes how they can make Fuel to explode when vaporized in air, in closed container. they couldnt make any of those BIG bangs which we have in game. and in game, we have only fuel and vapours of it in fuel tank, not correct mixture of both, which is needed to make gentle BUFF effect, still its not even close to high explosives power, far far back from blast effect power.. Fuel air explosivs are different thing (FAE) but those are not using fuel for making that effect, but an easy to light up explosive powder, dunno what type off. but its not fuel (gasoline)

so, i say that plane explosions are way off when compared to reality, so to say they are unrealistic.


This is the thing which makes its REALLY dangerous to shoot up planes are close range, and thats what was the tactics what top aces used for being sure of the kill, gettin close as possible before opening fire. if planes would blow up like that, there would not beeen that kind of tactics used, at all, or if used, no pilots survived after using that tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not discounting what your saying but there is some great footage I've seen, in colour, from B-17 daylight raids where at times you'll see a bright plume of smoke and light in the sky...and you wonder what sort of bomb went off and the description was "exploding FW190". I was quite shocked...but after that I stopped ragging on the exploding aircraft thing. It can happen...not all the time but they can spectacularly explode...and from the picture I saw the explosion is far more dramatic and smoke filled than anything we can currently render.

MercilessFatBoy
01-28-2006, 01:35 AM
remember that aircraft fuel is more potent than normal veicles fuel... i was looking on internet for the b17 video that is trailing smoke from one of it is riht engines... they are been recorded from another aircraft from it is 11 oclock... sudently huge explosion... when the explosion clared... there was no wing... and all the fuselage forward of the wing had banished.... it was the explosion of fuel tank... not bombs... it was enough to desingtegreat not only the wing but the fuselage by the force of the explosion.... what would had hapen to an small aircraft flying close by..

you are been blown up cus u fly too close.. dont do.... i fly campaings.... and only times i have been blown up by explosion is flying closer that 10 metters... not 50 like you say... at around 20 metres when i make explode enemy aircraft i just hear some impacts on my plane nothing mortal

La7_brook
01-28-2006, 04:14 AM
alot of fires in ww2 planes was cause by hydraulic hoses been hit

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 04:34 PM
still not an single comment here has made me chance my opinion.
that if fuel truck gas tank has exploded, has "bit" different thing that as with plane fuel tank which mostly was just rubber bag, as like in 109, it was surrounded kind of cardboard box as well. not that kind of tighly sealed and metallic tank which sure can keep pressure inside it before its construction gives up for the high pressure. Rubber cant much withstand pressuse as metal can, or what you think if its as well penetrated already with mg or cannon ammo. can it build inside it a huge pressure?

what you guys say as explosion is that you see fireball, that isnt an explosion, fireballs doesnt much advance in air at huge speeds like 5000m/sec or does it?

i want to see one video where plane or car explodes from fuel fumes and from fuel fumes only. not assisted with hidden explosives inside em.

what i say is that fuel tanks should light up in flames with quite gentle poof effect, not as like explosion.

if fuel really was SO effective in fuel tanks to make such HIGH damage as in game we now have, why did they bother to use HE stuff or such? if the plain fuel was enough for the job?

take you brains in ur hands and rub em, insert back and think. think with own brains.

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 04:36 PM
fatboy, again you tend to forget, that planes in air are moving, quite fast, think how much would the speed of air help for tearing parts away? huge help.

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 04:53 PM
lets try this this way. Think all the aces who said how to surprise enemy and WHEN to open fire. as close as possible, when enemy plane fills the windscreen. try that in game, try with different planes which has nose mounted guns, like 109 with 20mm, or P38 or what ever. How did hartman got kills that much with that tactics?

i cannot kill even 10 planes if i go near 6 and open fire. some just lose tail, some lite up and explode after XXX some explode right away and kills me as well. try to find how "close" you can go to fill your windscreen with enemy fighter. at 100 m is long distance.
i never ever readed that enemy plane would have exploded like in sim in real life. i have heard that plane has lost parts and they have hit plane attackin it behind, but that was rare thing to bring attacked down, really a rare thing. just make quick mission builder, take some plane, and attack different fighter planes of any type with different types of plane u have. go at REAL close as they did go back in history. bet you get killed before you reach 10 kills. and you call that as realism.
i never heard/read that planes did explode like bombs in air killin the attacker as well.
i cant remember any pilot to comment that they did fear enemy fighter explosions as more as their attacks on himself.

Jetbuff
01-28-2006, 05:20 PM
Stafroty, maybe planes didn't explode as easily irl. Even when they did though, perhaps it wasn't a hard and fast rule such as "if attacking plane is within Xm it is destroyed." Unfortunately, the latter is exactly how most computer games work.

I think you're getting way too close though, or using one hell of a big cannon perhaps? Because I have little trouble avoiding the debris/blast of my victims and I regularly shoot from under 100m.

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 05:35 PM
first of all jetbuff, visible debris dont hurt ur plane. as least didt mine as i got killed.

and with cannon calible, no matter what 20mm cannon you use, if u engage under 100m , you sure get ur bits from hits if enemy has delayed explosion, if you attack under 50m, you sure kill yourself almost every time enemy explodes.

DM sucks or game code when enemy plane got hits. Oleg should remove that complete explosion thingy from game, except if hit with bomb or rocket.

and once again from that truck thingy, there was only half from the direction left for the pressure released from explosion, and it was not towards ground, well was but ground reflects it back up. and what broke the axel, was that when truck fell back in ground. or was there everything ripped off by pressure fromt the truck? doors`? roof of cockpit? windows? i bet that even the windows in surroundin area were ok.

Jetbuff, yea, big cannon like mk108 is almost useless now in game, if one thinks for his own lief, from range over 50m you cannot hit where you aim, cos its accuracy is same rate as unrifled musket rifle, first rifles ever made. so you need to go close and when you do that, you kill you self.

try with hispano, mg151/20 or russian 20mm cannons, same result, you say kaboom
and i think its about incendiary effect of the rounds, if those shells hit gas tank, whole plane say bye bye, so there isnt enought code for different damage models, which then ends results like we have now.
that is odd that ppl say its realistic, and only because its in game, still something else in game isnt realistic on those same ppl opinions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

world is crazy ppl says, i say they got problems for admitting own stupidy.
world isnt crazy, we are, well you.

SeaFireLIV
01-28-2006, 06:22 PM
Stafroty, you need to go and study on explosions and the like. I`ve seen some really logical explanations put before you, but it seems you are absolutely certain to deny them all in preference of your own obviously unexperienced view.

Explosions are not like in Unreal tournament 2004. They are very, VERY dangerous and often have a bigger blast radius than you might think. And actual depicted parts of recognisable aircraft debris in IL2 DO cause damage (there`s a recorded example of this somewhere). I think the way explosion radius is depicted is well done, but I have only very rarely been incapacitated by an explosion. I also believe that an invisible radius shockwave is represented with parts.

In fact, I think I was actually buffeted up by one when a 109 I chased into the ground exploded, I should have gone in, but instead was `pushed` up slightly and away. Even my wingman online thought i`d exploded with it - and I took no damage either.

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 07:46 PM
seafire, how can you say how "qualified" i am with explosives and stuff?

where do you compare that? your own believings how things are?

what is blast wave? does it always rip ur wing? or does it just gently blow on ur face?
does it suddenly stop after some range? is it at max power till range where it just should blow gently on ur face?

NonWonderDog
01-28-2006, 10:50 PM
Come on now, explosions are dangerous, but aviation fuel is not a high explosive. The worst you're going to get is a fireball and a bit of shrapnel... you're generally not going to get any kind of shockwave from an "exploding" fuel tank. About the only thing carried that could cause an explosion dangerous to another plane is a bomb.

Debris should damage a plane that flys through it, of course... and it seems to do so in the sim. Most of the debris seems to vaporize in the huge explosions we keep getting, though...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

MercilessFatBoy
01-29-2006, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
seafire, how can you say how "qualified" i am with explosives and stuff?

where do you compare that? your own believings how things are?

what is blast wave? does it always rip ur wing? or does it just gently blow on ur face?
does it suddenly stop after some range? is it at max power till range where it just should blow gently on ur face? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the guys has made his mind up bofore he even posted this topic.. lets dont waste our time wiht him

MercilessFatBoy
01-29-2006, 02:05 AM
now i understend i can stand next at a fuel tank make it explode and walk away unharm

besides u guys forgeting the heat of the explosion that melts metal right away

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 02:41 AM
fatboy... hehe , well, i HAVE been next to pieces of TNT, 200g soaps as we said, its bit over 4lbs of TNS, closest one of em was some 2m(6feets) from me when it exploded, i was there on all open, only clothes between me and explosion, nothing more. and it only shake my clothes like BASS drums in heavy metal consert, it didnt rip my arms away or throw me hundreds of meters.
and about heat, yopu cannot make gasoline to explode like it would heat up and vaporize metal right away, for that you need torch and gas. be sure that plane can easily fly thru fire ball from cas without riskin to melt up.

you can stand next to fuel explosion, you just get ur skin and hairs burned, of course.

joeap
01-29-2006, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:


you can stand next to fuel explosion, you just get ur skin and hairs burned, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That happened to you right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am not an expert either way but would point out it is not polite to ask for opinions and then dismiss and ignore others input in such a rude manner becasue it doesn't agree with your own. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Even if you were right.

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2006, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
you can stand next to fuel explosion, you just get ur skin and hairs burned, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s rubbish. Absolutely.

Brain32
01-29-2006, 05:03 AM
I don't think air explosions are so dangerous in the game, ofcourse it can scre* up your engine and worst of all cause windshield oil splatter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif but I think this is acceptable especially because I used mk108 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
What bug's me is when you shoot the plane down he crashes into ground and takes you with him. I mean if we are both going 400kph, 20m above the water, I shot him and fly ahead even slightly climbing, he crashes into water!!! and I either get dewinged or loose my elevator, I think that is a bit too much(he had no bombs) especially because there is no difference if he crashes into water or into ground(resources for calculation?). Also who says a plane would immidiatley(instantly) explode every time he crashes?

NonWonderDog
01-29-2006, 05:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
you can stand next to fuel explosion, you just get ur skin and hairs burned, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s rubbish. Absolutely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what should it do, if not burn you? Gasoline does not explode like TNT or dynamite. There's really not much overpressure. Perhaps if in a drum at the perfect concentration you'd have to worry about getting pieces of fuel drum through your head... but most fighters have some kind of tank inerting, right?

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2006, 05:38 AM
I`m not going into detail because certain minds are not for changing but there`s much more to it than that. Sure, a fuel explosion is not the same as an explosives detonation, but you can`t just stand next to one and just get your skin and hair burned - much more than that happens (of course explosion size is important too).

And no, I`m not doing your homework, google it and find out.

NonWonderDog
01-29-2006, 06:04 AM
A fuel-air explosive dispersed over a wide area that destroys through overpressure has very little in common with a fuel tank explosion.

A fuel tank filled with a lean, explosive vapor, unless rather large, will not have enough energy to destroy through overpressure. It will be mainly a frag bomb with a big fireball. Again, though, don't most fighters have some form of tank inerting with exhaust gases?

And when someone says "gasoline bomb," the common understanding is a molotov-like device. Unless you have a VERY large molotov, you wont get much more than a fireball that damages by burning.


That covers heat, fragmentation, and overpressure; what's left? Gamma radiation? If there is something we don't know about here, you really don't need to be intentionally obtuse and hide it from us.

Viikate_
01-29-2006, 06:47 AM
Has anyone Googled "gasoline explosion"??? This one was quite big: http://www.brightok.net/chickasaw/ardmore/county/explo.html

MercilessFatBoy
01-29-2006, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
fatboy... hehe , well, i HAVE been next to pieces of TNT, 200g soaps as we said, its bit over 4lbs of TNS, closest one of em was some 2m(6feets) from me when it exploded, i was there on all open, only clothes between me and explosion, nothing more. and it only shake my clothes like BASS drums in heavy metal consert, it didnt rip my arms away or throw me hundreds of meters.
and about heat, yopu cannot make gasoline to explode like it would heat up and vaporize metal right away, for that you need torch and gas. be sure that plane can easily fly thru fire ball from cas without riskin to melt up.

you can stand next to fuel explosion, you just get ur skin and hairs burned, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW THAT mean i can use TNT as fire crackers too ...

lets get this straight Stafroty just answer this 2 questions..

Is a fuel tank explotion powerfull enough to turn a metal plane into hundreths of little fragments?

if yes (the answer is yes) dOES that mean that the blast it cause can damage a plane flying next to it?

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 09:46 AM
if fuel tank would explode, it sure would need that it would KEEP PRESSURE in itself long enought for making explosion, now, we got fueltanks whihc are made from rubber or such.

sure you can blow up barrel which has air and vapors inside it. but the vapors itself aint making big bang, only flame.


yea, i cant see it possible that fueltank "explosion" is able to make plane in pieces. maybe in 2 bigger pieces tail and nose section separated like we have now in sim when construction gets damaged enought so tail falls off. i would use that kind of graphical display for gas tank "explode" more than total explosion what we have in sim..

again, how many has tested with different planes with ICONS on offline to kill friedly planes in QMB? try shoot some 10 planes under 100 m and under 50m distace http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif see what happens. IF they explode, you sure notice it right away. and pieecs of those planes doesnt damage the plane, anymore, they did but not more.

IF these same ppl still claims that sim is realistic in this issue, they sure live in dream land.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 09:50 AM
and about using TNT as firecrackers, yea, you sure can use them as firecrackers purpose, IF; you dont dig them in ground, put anything over them or make any container around them.

They just make blast wave which really ISNT EFFECTIVE agaisnt human from meter or so away, just shakes ur clothes. yea, i know, you dont have any experience yourself about TNT, but you have readed books and watched films. its like you would listen your friend as he talks about his feelings, but still, you would never understand how he really feel. same in vice versa. no one can really know how you feel.

MercilessFatBoy
01-29-2006, 10:52 AM
lmao man you are just some one who doesnt know anything about ww2, and u r here arguing wiht none bassed... it isnt enough for u to see gun cameres where airplanes turn into million pices... not only 2 big pices.... rubber fuel tanks... sure what ever kid... go read a book fr onces.... the wing it self is enough to hold the presure... planes not getting damaged from enemy explodint... well in reality it was very comon... u ever read anything at all??

about the test.. u shuld go test it... take screen shots and post it here.... i tell u u just got to be siting next to the exploding plane to die... thats what noobs do 50m wont do

MercilessFatBoy
01-29-2006, 10:59 AM
makes us all a favor, buy aviation fuel... put it in containers.. and set it on fire... sit next to it.... tell us the result

Viikate_
01-29-2006, 11:21 AM
So if we would blow up this:
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/index.dsp?level=70&equipment=131
(20kg of TNT cased in paper) you could stand few meters away and not be harmed?

Maybe 20 kilos of TNT isn't quite as same as few grams.

And since when self-sealing tanks were made of rubber only? They were metal tanks covered with "liquid" rubber (vulkanoitua kumia). I dunno what's the english word, but I have handled this stuff. Gasoline and hot summer day melts it. For example Fokker D.XXI's had regular metal tanks during winter war and after that they were covered with rubber layer and leather layer top of that.

If 250 barrel tank car explosion can wreck hundreds of houses (and break windows half a mile away) and kill 50 people, then why plane's fuel tank explosion couldn't wreck the plane and another plane 10 meters away.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 12:13 PM
10m away?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

boy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
you kill ur own engine at 10m distance if you shoot at it with cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif by your own ammo shrapnels http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and what comes to 20KG of TNT, its still pressure it makes, no fragments, and of course, bigger amount of it means bigger bang and bigger pressure at longer distance.

how you make it up with gasoline which is inside fuel tank, not spread all over the sky with just right mixture, you still not get such bang with fuel than with explosives.

how many times you got that perfect mixture made up before ignition in real? do planes first spread their fuel in air, then you light it up?

if you penetrate fuel tank, it means it alreade has an hole where pressure will leak, and where gas tank will rip when pressure comes high enough, it still is puff of flame, not an huge explosion.
and about guncam films, how can one be sure what is exploding there in plane? and what is it hit with?

if plane goes off, i think its 100m distance where biggest arrows affect when arcade is on, while smaller ones affects at 50m and so on, dunno accurately how many types of damage plane explosion makes, but one thing is sure, that the exposion force sends those fragment arrowns which models consussion damage to every direction no matter the speed and vector of an plane where it goes. its like static round bomb with fragment shell.

it is not realistic in any way.

planes were made no paper, or did they do em?

does planes sustain lots of pressure from high speeds without brakin up? yes
but not when pressure comes from explosion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oleg can keep that modellin way if he wants but im saying it cuold be tweaked and toned down, as it makes historical and realistic tactics unwise to use. its HIGH risk of death if you go for sure kill at close distance. you never know when you pop the balloon in game.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 12:16 PM
anyone seen that SU27 which fell in ground in airshow?

there is somewhere video of it and there isnt any big kaboom when that Jet hit the dirt, yea, gasoline in it did flame up nicely, but still it was just fireball, which raised up calmly, not exeeding some thousands of feets per sec speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 12:20 PM
http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos/

there is some vids, notice one where B52 hits the dirt, that isnt explosion which has huge pressures in it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif its just flame with little pressure effect. should that kind of "pressure" torn wings out from fighterplanes? or cut plane in two?

look em all, notice as well when russian fighters fell down too, yea, HUUUUGE explosion once again, half of the planet disappeared on that one, glad we live at the other side http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rr9
01-29-2006, 12:22 PM
Just a comment on this Stafroty's line:
"i have heard that plane has lost parts and they have hit plane attackin it behind, but that was rare thing to bring attacked down, really a rare thing."

I was wondering if it was rare because pilots quickly learned from other pilots and from their own combat flights that attacking from some directions was a lot more dangerous? That if you got close enough, the risk of being hit by plane pieces was big enough that pilots tried to stay far enough.

I just read this Hartmann's interview where he said that when getting his first kill he shot an IL-2 from underneath to hit the oil cooler. The Russian plane went down, but Hartmann flew into the debris and had to make forced landing. "I learned two things that day; get in close and shoot and break away immediately after scoring the kill".

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 12:41 PM
does hartman say that after scorin the kill (after he has shot at target at close, that enemy explodes totally?
or is it just depris which fells off by his cannon effect? like tail section or such http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif now you cant get in safe even IF YOU break away, if enemy explodes, cos, debris isnt the problem like harman says, but pressure from explosin which still is modelled as fragment damage as game DM doesnt model pressure at all.

here is link to pics where is FUEL AIR EXPLOSIVES, a bomb which uses something else than gasoline for the effect. it is this what makes your head wonder wtf im talkin BS; that u heard that its effective mothafuka wpon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.air-and-space.com/20020625%20China%20Lake/DC...%20Explosive%20l.jpg (http://www.air-and-space.com/20020625%20China%20Lake/DCP00502%20BLU-95-96%20Fuel%20Air%20Explosive%20l.jpg)

NonWonderDog
01-30-2006, 02:43 AM
Yeah, fuel air explosives have nothing to do with any of this at all. They work by spreading a highly explosive powder out over a wide area and then igniting it. The main damage mechanism is overpressure from the blast, followed by a momentary vacuum. Stand next to one of *those* and you'll have all your ribs broken, no conciousness, and no air to breathe... not to mention the 3rd degree burns over most of your body.

This is *NOT* anything like a fuel tank explosion until you start talking about 10,000 gallon tanks like in the link. In addition, fuel tanks are only explosive when they are somewhere between 5% and 20% full. More fuel will only *prevent* an explosion... as would tank inerting.

If you throw a bunch of avgas in a pan and light it you'll get a nice mushroom cloud and you might set yourself on fire, but that will be the extent of your injuries. Put it in a can and blow it up and you might be on fire with bits of can 4" deep in your forehead... but you won't have your arms ripped off or anything silly like that.

rr9
01-30-2006, 09:57 AM
In that Hartmann interview it read that he flew into debris. I don't know if there's more accurate description on this in his book. I haven't had much trouble with those explosions, maybe you shoot from so close distance.

If you want to really model those explosions well, you have to take into consideration quite many things about the structure of different planes. I don't think current models include all those things, so it's not possible using this game engine.

I hadn't seen that air explosion pic before, but I'm sure you wouldn't want to be standing 2 meters from that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stafroty
01-30-2006, 10:50 AM
some under 100m is not so near, or 50m. you kill urself most of the time if you fire at enemy fighter at 50m distance and it explodes right away when you hit it. it sure is not realistic. and when you go shoot at enemy at under 10m, and enemy dont explode, you still get damage from your own cannon hits on enemy plane, ur hits on enemy makes fragmentation effect at it sure damages urself too . many times ive smoked my engine with own gun fire at enemy, still enemy has been the one who survived http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i got few ideas what could be done here. Reduce that explosion effect range to some 10m or take it away totally and make again those depris make damage when it hits plane, as it now doesnt do it in air.

Philipscdrw
01-30-2006, 12:54 PM
If a plane drives into the ground 50 metres in front of you, while you're flying fast at 30 meters above the ground, won't bits of debris (from the aircraft and from the ground) be thrown into the air and hit you?

I'm not talking about any kind of explosion, just the kinetic collision of an aircraft onto the ground, throwing material into the air which strikes the aircraft.

Has anyone else ever been damaged by shrapnel from their own weapons? I think it has never happened to me.

There is a wierd feature of the weapons debris in Il-2 - when you hit an aircraft with your guns, a little black speck of debris will appear in the air and hang completely still. I wave my machine guns at someone 400m away, and three seconds later I fly through a little cloud of small black dots. They are strange things...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
do you happen to understand, thatn you can hold 10KG of TNT over your head, while friend of yours shoots thru it with assault rifle?
it wont Go off. but it will , if you set it in fire and then shoot at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It must have been fun to do that experiment! :P

Stafroty
01-30-2006, 02:44 PM
it might throw debris in air, depends the angle and speed on what plane hits the ground, but i would say it would not be a threat that to take care for, like in sim now.

if you never got hit by own weapons, you can make it happen really fast, just get ur plane upside down on ground without explosion, and then start to shoot when ur nose points down, you plane takes secondary damage even from light machineguns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif this at least with FW and 109. you hear hit sounds and you might ignite ur engine, or destroy ur own guns etc.

yea, flyin debris what machineguns make is there for no reason. i dont understand how would machinegun hits make pieces fly so easily from plane. it would be realistic if only High explosive rounds would have that kind of effect.



more i trust accuracy of an assault rifle than an bow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif wilhelm tell took it with big risk http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Philipscdrw
01-30-2006, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
it might throw debris in air, depends the angle and speed on what plane hits the ground, but i would say it would not be a threat that to take care for, like in sim now.

if you never got hit by own weapons, you can make it happen really fast, just get ur plane upside down on ground without explosion, and then start to shoot when ur nose points down, you plane takes secondary damage even from light machineguns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif this at least with FW and 109. you hear hit sounds and you might ignite ur engine, or destroy ur own guns etc.

yea, flyin debris what machineguns make is there for no reason. i dont understand how would machinegun hits make pieces fly so easily from plane. it would be realistic if only High explosive rounds would have that kind of effect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, that's true - I have noticed the 'Firing guns at zero range into ground' damage effect. I've never noticed it against aircraft - but I don't fly the big-cannon types often, and don't get very close very often. I'll go home and try to damage my plane with my own guns!

Stafroty
01-30-2006, 02:53 PM
20mm isnt big gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
take QMB and fly really near friendly plane. see what happens when u open fire at 50m range, big chance that screen goes black http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stafroty
01-31-2006, 03:09 PM
bumb

Stafroty
02-01-2006, 05:45 PM
bumb

Stafroty
02-04-2006, 01:47 AM
bumb

SeaFireLIV
02-04-2006, 03:00 AM
It may not be obvious to you, Stafroty, but people are getting bored of arguing the same point over with you ad-infinitum, no matter how often you `bumb` it!

Stafroty
02-04-2006, 08:27 AM
same applies correctly to you, as you havent bring up any "proof" yet, only things what you believe is. prove me wrong.

Jetbuff
02-04-2006, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
same applies correctly to you, as you havent bring up any "proof" yet, only things what you believe is. prove me wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure you understand the concept. Proof of what? You're the only one making an assumption, and that is what a proof is for: to prove/disprove such assumption. Show us a track of what you think is wrong and why and then we can debate its merits. So far, all we have to go on is your outrage and some anecdotal evidence. That is hardly proof.

Stafroty
02-05-2006, 06:36 AM
how hard it is to test against friendly planes in quick mission builder? there you would be able to SEE it all yourself, as fast as lookin the track. or are you such an lazy ar$se that you cant do it urself? still you can bash ur mouth as you would know something about what im talkin. test it, observe it, understand it.

Nubarus
02-05-2006, 08:34 AM
LMAO, you want to prove something so show what it is without telling other people they are lazy.

You started this discussion because you think something is wrong so the ball is in your court pal.

Start a thread, do the work to prove your point instead of keep on rambeling on about it and then after 4 pages tell other people they are lazy and should perform your tests themselves.

Like you said yourself eh: "how hard it is to test against friendly planes in quick mission builder?"

So, then shut your big mouth and go do it so we can actually see what your point is....... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Stafroty
02-05-2006, 11:27 AM
yes, Nubarus, it seems you cant understand almost anything. What is the truth for you? what is the more realistic, the way things are in game than in real life. Ive put URL to video site where you can with ur own eyes look how fuel "explodes" in collision with ground, with different style of planes. Can you see in those videos, that its like HUGE pressure in those when fuel lights up?

what is the truth you lean on to?

Can you in urcase see that you see only that everything is right? if its always ben like that, why are you even bothering to come in these forums to say that theres something wrong if in your way of thinking there isnt. there is something fishy in the way you think, and yes, you yourself are not capable to see it, some otherppl are.
in other words. this sim is more than realistic when you compare it to real world, yes? Real world isnt realistic for you? is that what you are trying to say? that what i understand you to say, you cant believe that there could be something wrong Just because you happen to believe that this issue is Just the absolute truth how things goes(in virtual real life).

Im myself tryin to get this game to be as much realistic as it would be with the real world.
i dont know what you are trying.
with your way of thinking nothing would ever go forward in science, as everything is already known, right?
if the target of realism isnt that, can we even anymore talk about Ô┬┤realism`??

Lemme Say, Theory isnt same as Truth.
And Truth isnt same as what people believe. Believe is like Religion, and Religion is one way to explain how things are, but is it still the truth`?
if the target of realism isnt that, can we even anymore talk about Ô┬┤realism`??

Jetbuff
02-05-2006, 12:35 PM
Stafroty, just think for a moment. Do you really think insulting people is the way to make them listen to you? Take a good long moment to think about that one.

Hawgdog
02-06-2006, 10:14 AM
Ok, if a plane explodes close to me, I get damage, seems real enough.
When someone plows a fully loaded plane into AAA or a small ship why doesn't that object get destroyed?

regards-

rr9
02-06-2006, 10:49 AM
"When someone plows a fully loaded plane into AAA or a small ship why doesn't that object get destroyed?"

It does.

NonWonderDog
02-06-2006, 02:05 PM
It's a bit hard to create a track for this on purpose, but surely everyone's seen this happen at least once? Aircraft explosions in the sim can damage another aircraft in flight within *at least* a 50 meter radius... even when the exploding aircraft carries no bombs.

The only substantive explosions from an unladen aircraft should come from burning fuel tanks depleted to an explosive level, but I'm not sure how often they would actually explode. Oxygen bottles can undergo explosive decompression when shot, but that would only blow a hole in the plane (or pilot...). Ammo storage can explode with enough force to rip a wing off, absolutely, but the blast radius would be pretty small. Perhaps you'd get some bullet-shaped "shrapnel" headed off in various directions, too, but the chances of being hit by it in another plane are essentially nil.

Yet in the sim, planes can explode with a force equal to a 100kg bomb or larger. I've had my plane damaged as to be uncontrollable by simply flying to close to the ground as another fighter crashes! Surely this can't be correct!

NonWonderDog
02-06-2006, 02:42 PM
Alright, here's a track, whatever good it does:

http://www.umich.edu/~rgmorris/Explosion.ntrk (http://www.umich.edu/%7Ergmorris/Explosion.ntrk)


I used a Ki-84-Ic (big guns) and fired on an F2A2 Buffalo (explodes a lot) from 50-60 m. As you can see, the giant explosion that resulted set my starboard fuel tank on fire. You might want to pause the track when it starts and view it in slow motion... I was a bit close when I started recording, sorry.

My first attempt to record a track, I used a Ki-61 and was only 30m away when the Buffalo exploded. My plane lost 3 control surfaces, both wings were shredded, and the engine died. I tried getting another Buffalo to explode from further out in the Tony, but had no luck.


Now honestly, why would this happen? Not even the damage, specifically.... why would that Buffalo be completely annihilated in a huge fireball to begin with?

Stafroty
02-06-2006, 10:24 PM
Feeling instulted is different thing that the issue here, everuyone who feels insulted by other ppl words have some kind of problems with self esteem. They Themselfs let the words of the others hurt their own feelings. they all make that hurt feeling in their own mind, but yes, its much easier to blame others from own flaws, as it always been.

About the issue itself. yea, wonderdog has been testing it, as he has been playin this game, so he knows that it happen, other forum jockeys dont even have a glue what is the issue here, but sure they are ready to be professionals about it.

Nubarus
02-07-2006, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
yes, Nubarus, it seems you cant understand almost anything. What is the truth for you? what is the more realistic, the way things are in game than in real life. Ive put URL to video site where you can with ur own eyes look how fuel "explodes" in collision with ground, with different style of planes. Can you see in those videos, that its like HUGE pressure in those when fuel lights up?

what is the truth you lean on to?

Can you in urcase see that you see only that everything is right? if its always ben like that, why are you even bothering to come in these forums to say that theres something wrong if in your way of thinking there isnt. there is something fishy in the way you think, and yes, you yourself are not capable to see it, some otherppl are.
in other words. this sim is more than realistic when you compare it to real world, yes? Real world isnt realistic for you? is that what you are trying to say? that what i understand you to say, you cant believe that there could be something wrong Just because you happen to believe that this issue is Just the absolute truth how things goes(in virtual real life).

Im myself tryin to get this game to be as much realistic as it would be with the real world.
i dont know what you are trying.
with your way of thinking nothing would ever go forward in science, as everything is already known, right?
if the target of realism isnt that, can we even anymore talk about Ô┬┤realism`??

Lemme Say, Theory isnt same as Truth.
And Truth isnt same as what people believe. Believe is like Religion, and Religion is one way to explain how things are, but is it still the truth`?
if the target of realism isnt that, can we even anymore talk about Ô┬┤realism`?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the insults.

Now can you on your part please point out where I actually agreed or disagreed with your point?

I have read my post several times and I cannot spot where I actually said that you are wright or wrong.

So instead of flaming everybody all the time you might actually read and better understand what is actually written before insulting other people and telling them they don't understand anything........

Stafroty
02-07-2006, 06:15 AM
Nubarus, is it tickin u off? why should i? just for pleasing you or others? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif maybe i just ask you to think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

you quoted my words: "how hard it is to test against friendly planes in quick mission builder?"

yes, ive done my tests,i know how it goes, all im askin, for YOU and others test it too. how hard it is to get in ur mind? are you too proud to admit something which isnt even your fault or your design?

how about if i dont have a place where to put my evidence ?? i can send those things to you if you are too lazy to fly it urself, but look it urself? you say its impossible for you to experience Ô┬┤truthÔ┬┤ but you can read about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nubarus
02-07-2006, 07:30 AM
Sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to imply in your last post.

Your English grammar is really poor.

So instead of opening topics like this you might be better off collecting your evidence and send it to pf@1c.ru and ask the game developers to look at it.

Maulovitz
02-07-2006, 07:37 AM
On Dart's page you can see this blast-"problem" in the end of the movie called "Boom and Zoom":
http://www.darts-page.com/movies/Zoom_and_Boom.zip

Another thing (in reverse, actually): I've played the Iwo Jima campaign as a japanese, and when I'm trying to divebomb these poor marines in their sea-half-track-transportation-somethings I can't make them go boom unless I get a direct hit - no matter the size of the bomb. This is regardless of them being situated on the beach or in the water. I have skipped bombed them, and that sure helped but still - when a 250kg bomb hits 3m from your vessel - shouldn't it explode?!

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
Feeling instulted is different thing that the issue here, everuyone who feels insulted by other ppl words have some kind of problems with self esteem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who mentioned anything about being insulted? I said using insults, (calling people names) irrespective of whether people are actually insulted by them, does not help your cause that is all. As for self-esteem, funny you should mention that since it is psychological fact that insults are an esteem-linked defensive reaction. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I really was trying to help out because it is a valid issue (planes probably should not explode as frequently as they do) and so I was hoping a change of tone might actually get it addressed instead of ignored. In other words, you were shooting yourself in the foot with the name-calling. This is sociology 101 btw; no one will actually hear what you are saying when you yell at them. But apparently very few simmers take that course. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Stafroty
02-08-2006, 09:56 AM
Jetbuff, some people can take things what are meant just for pointing out things, as an insults. its like someone would have sh1tted in his pants, and someone says that have you noticed that you got stuff in ur pants, someone can become insulted about that. and thats telling the truth.
and also, does it chance the thing how i make up my point? does it chance the thing what we are seeing as problem? i didnt come here to act as saint or such, ive never could been something i am not, ive tried and didnt feel good as doin it. now i say what i see and understand is wrong in this game, some get annoyed about it, and some even insulted because they really dont have guts to jump over own proud way of thinking, they take it as attack againts themselfs, even if i bring up issue what is not realistic in this sim. its not my problem if people want to be brainswashed in gentle way. i could do it, but still it would not chance the thing. Adult ppl should be able to stand up and would not need to be talked like for the childrens some would think to be needed to talk.

and yes, Jetbuff, i still havent met anyone perfect human, no one. even i myself have problems of somekind, but im trying to develope myself in my life and i got lots to develope, not stick in same old song for rest of my life.
some might think they are perfetct and everyone other is wrong just cos they think differently than Ô┬┤myselfÔ┬┤.

but issue what ive bringed here, i shown links to videos where is clearly seen how fuel tanks or fuel itself "explodes" when planes crashes. and everyone is able to find out more of these films. im still not denyin that fuel cannot "explode" in right circumstances, but whe you compare it to REAL explosives, you would like to call fuel explosion more as an fart.

Stafroty
02-11-2006, 12:17 AM
BOOOOOOMM!!

LeVola
02-11-2006, 12:45 AM
Plane explosions are ok in this game. But power of that explosion is too effective to other planes.
Like if plane crashes on the ground and you are 50-100 meters away, and flying away from that place you should be safe. I mean that crashing plane is not carrying any big bombs.

No plane with only fuel onboard cant make more damage than a 50kg bomb.

Of course if B29 full fuel load is exploding in perfect way the case could be different.

Stafroty
02-11-2006, 02:59 AM
Good way to open this subject Levola http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
YEa, there is need for planes to go totally in pieces like when they hit the dirt.
but in skyhigh, the planes go too easy in pieces, and the pieces themselfs are needed to hurt planes near them, blast wave effect isnt itself enought, gasoline doesnt have power itself to create pressure effect to rip planes in pieces, if its not spread all over in air, and people HAS seen in guncam films, where planes leak fuel, before it is ignited in fire with more gunfire, or engine heat. still the fillowing plane ISNT destroyed by the leaking fuel which should as well explode as it is already spreaded in air, and plane flies inside that cloud http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif what an terrible danger pilots put emselfs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

yea, Plane debris should do the damage, not the blast effect which is instant "fragment" damage to all directions.

Stafroty
02-11-2006, 09:36 PM
boom!

Stafroty
02-14-2006, 07:33 AM
Kaboom

JG52_Cyanide
02-14-2006, 08:06 AM
Somebody rang bomb disposal?

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 02:10 AM
so, is there someone who still thinks that fuel tanks should make BIG KABOOM when they are hit with He or incendiary or tracer ammo?

i got many videos of TRUTH in here, which for sure shoes that how gentle the firetank "explosions" are. nothing like the real HE explosion.
I see no parts going anywhere on those explosions or such, what would hit the nearby objects. of course the plane wreck could roll or fly bit at same direction like where plane was flying before crash.

is it them possible to prove, like with videos like these in here:

http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos/

can i have link to videos here where as well are planes crashing and fuel flames out with powers where everythign goes up from surrounding terrain with no fire makin it go up, but blast wave.

PapaFly
02-15-2006, 03:38 AM
Yep i also have the impression that damage caused by nearby exploding planes is way too strong.
I fly 190s, opening fire at 150-100m, lots of damage, many planes explode.
The first plane i took down in 4.03m exploded when i passed some 50m above it. Whammmm, my wing went off!

In earlier versions, i just had the impression that the blast radius of planes hitting the ground was too high. I went down or took damage many times because of that.

Now it looks like we have a similar situation when planes explode in midair.

What do you do when using the mk108? 1 of 3 planes hit will explode in front of you!!!

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 04:00 AM
and what is effective range of that cannon papafly? is effective range that where you have certain capability to hit target or is it dependand on range cos of KE, or is it HE based like mortar? now, usefull range is really short if you want to shoot something else down as well, and thus you want to shoot something else down as well per sortie, you gotta go NEAR, and that way your sortie is over. yea, people can whine about im being biased on here. cos they see that only one side gets advantage of this, no matter how they think it.

sim isnt even realistic in using tactics used in WW2, cant do what they did in WW2, cant even go close before opening fire. Hartman would have died only some 100:s of times if world in real would have been like we have in simulation.

Viikate_
02-15-2006, 05:35 AM
Anyone remember this fuel tank explosion?
http://tc.engr.wisc.edu/UER/uer00/author2/content.html

Fuel tanks CAN make BIG KABOOM if conditions are right. History has showed this many times.

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 06:02 AM
they still not know what exploded the tank. and they how big kaboom you think it really was after all? enought power to make whole plane smaller than half meter pieces?? or did the crash broke the plane in ground in small pieces?

did the fueltank blow hole on fuselage of the plane, which then was made bigger because of airstream?

you know, when you drive car at 60mph (100kmh) that airstream really has effect on your hand when you stick it out from the window, doesnt it?
same thing happens when elevators and other control surfaces goes stiff, as air is "tighter" then.
Just when you are swimming, you can move your hand under water slowly with less force, but try to move it as fast you can, does it make kinda "friction" ??

how does it feel it speed is 800-1000kmh??

any better Viikate? is that your proof?

Viikate_
02-15-2006, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
they still not know what exploded the tank. and they how big kaboom you think it really was after all? enought power to make whole plane smaller than half meter pieces?? or did the crash broke the plane in ground in small pieces?

did the fueltank blow hole on fuselage of the plane, which then was made bigger because of airstream?

you know, when you drive car at 60mph (100kmh) that airstream really has effect on your hand when you stick it out from the window, doesnt it?
same thing happens when elevators and other control surfaces goes stiff, as air is "tighter" then.
Just when you are swimming, you can move your hand under water slowly with less force, but try to move it as fast you can, does it make kinda "friction" ??

how does it feel it speed is 800-1000kmh??

any better Viikate? is that your proof? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't you read the article? The whole front section of the plane exploded away in midair.

How do you explain that tanker car explosion in 1915 that killed 50 people? Fuel tanks CAN explode and create huge damage. period.

Almost anything that burns can create deadly explosions in right conditions. Sawdust can explode in factories, propane gas at your summer cottage...

I'm not saying that planes explode correctly in game now. Maybe it occurs too often and spread too much deadly fragments... I dunno.

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 06:41 AM
no ****? did you read what exploded? so, now you say that every time there is hit on fuel tank, it leads to explosion? what if there IS NOT RIGHT MIXTURE FOR EXPLOSION??? do it still explode?

how narrow is the right mixture? can you clarify that, and also tell how ofter the fumes in tank are just exact right mixture?

isnt it in few % or range where mix is right to cause ignition? lets say 5%
so, there would be 95% safe zone right?

makes point?


oh, and were those fuel tanks full when that tanker pop off sky high? or empty? why doesnt every one of vehicle or object explode just cos theres gas or vapors inside?

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 06:45 AM
what you think im trying to say here Viikate???

that fuel doenstn burn? that grain dust doesnt "explode"??

does it Still explode like TNT even if it burns quite fast? i bet it would not burn 5000m/sec speed, what you think?

and what is point of this thread`?
to make those explosions toned down or deleted completelly from game or getting Fixed because its always 250kg-500kg bomb when plane goes off. does that eat immersion and joyness from this game when own plane is gone if enemy happens to explode behind your back?

Viikate_
02-15-2006, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
so, now you say that every time there is hit on fuel tank, it leads to explosion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Show me where I said that. I just wanted to comment this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
so, is there someone who still thinks that fuel tanks should make BIG KABOOM when they are hit with He or incendiary or tracer ammo? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now you say that fuel tanks can't explode at all?

et vaan osaa...

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
so, now you say that every time there is hit on fuel tank, it leads to explosion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Show me where I said that. I just wanted to comment this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
so, is there someone who still thinks that fuel tanks should make BIG KABOOM when they are hit with He or incendiary or tracer ammo? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now you say that fuel tanks can't explode at all?

et vaan osaa... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Can you just say what you were thinkin when you were replying in here??

have you not read the name of he thread? have you no connection capability?

hve you now defending role?
and if you have, what you defend?

PapaFly
02-22-2006, 04:50 AM
Bump! We need oleg's opinion here!

Stafroty
02-22-2006, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PapaFly:
Bump! We need oleg's opinion here! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

remeber, even if Oleg does give an opinion, it would still not be the truth, its would be his opinion, and, i bet, he would for sure have more information about this issue, than many others.
i just hope he will use it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nubarus
02-22-2006, 11:37 AM
If you really want his opinion on this possible issue your better off recording some tracks and send a detailed information email and attach the tracks to it.

Not that it hasn't been posted enough already that that is the way to report possible bugs though...... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GR142-Pipper
02-22-2006, 09:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
Hi, does anyone really bothers to think how realistic are those explosions when plane blows up totally in air/ground?

I find then really inaccurate in realism way, say, i shoot at enemy plane which caught in fire, i fly pass it and then it explodes some 50m behind me and i lose wing or such, not so realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree completely. It's like the planes are filled with dynamite. It's a gimmick that the game could well do without.

GR142-Pipper

ECV56_Rolf
02-22-2006, 10:59 PM
Wasn't this flying bomb effect introduced after PF to help kamikaze attacks? (now impossible on-line...)

Stafroty
02-23-2006, 03:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
Wasn't this flying bomb effect introduced after PF to help kamikaze attacks? (now impossible on-line...) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that kamikaze attack could be also be done with KE attack on the nose of the plane (engine) rest could be bluff.
now, all the damage is Ke based fragments. Even Fire damage is. you can test that with IL-2m3 with VAP-250 thingys against Blenheims, fly just over Blenheim, drop Vap-250 fire on it, it will explode right away. Use arcade mode, and you see that the bomber was hit with something really Explosive and hard, as it takes out the plane right away on hit, you see the arrows left from it, and those come only when something hits the plane or your plane, of course, your plane explodes just because the AI plane explodes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

with fighters exploding, you can test diffedent guns at under 100m range at them, friendly AI planes, just try to make them explode. if they do, many times, will you too, if you are close eneought. most often, plane is disabled totally and PK.

oh, btw, why are Skash mg.s more effective causing fire than .50cal againts Blenheims? is there no incendiary ammo on .50cals or how is the fire ignition made in this game?
just certain number of hits needed to one area, for disablin it, or makin it burn, if its determined to be burning part? i would think that .50cal would be much more effective on setting something like fuel to burn.
when light cal bullet hits the fuel tank, it sure doesnt have enought E to make blast wave (big enought) with the liguid inside tank, like would have .50cals have, or cannons even more.
Blast wave forces the gas fly ouf from tank thru the holes there is, more if bigger cal and even more if faster bullet/Explosives, might even tear it apart, depends how elastic the tank is.
anyway, apart from the issue. others whines if want.


no more those magic explosion powers in online? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)) sounds good, maybe too good to be true.

Stafroty
02-23-2006, 02:13 PM
i think the blast radius is bit smaller on online now, not so sure, but still im able to die when enemy goes off next to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif we did do some tests about it as well online.

anasteksi
02-23-2006, 03:30 PM
the blast radius is ridiculously big.. I was flyin b25 and zero chased me. I shot that zero with tailgunner and zero blew up. Distance was something like 50 meters. I lost my wing, allmost all gunners and pilot died. Is this realistic?! If you fly away from the explosion the blast effect won't affect you allmost at all.

Stafroty
02-23-2006, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anasteksi:
the blast radius is ridiculously big.. I was flyin b25 and zero chased me. I shot that zero with tailgunner and zero blew up. Distance was something like 50 meters. I lost my wing, allmost all gunners and pilot died. Is this realistic?! If you fly away from the explosion the blast effect won't affect you allmost at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just because it sends hit "fragments" (arrows) to every direction, some big and some small, less of those big ones whihc fly longer distance, more those little. and, more you make you small toward explosion direction, less you get hits.

VMF-214_Pappy
02-24-2006, 11:49 AM
I find it totally unrealstic that planes explode and vaporize into nothing. All the guncam footage I have watched I have never seen this. I have seen fuel tanks explode yes,but most of plane stays intact.In order for fuel to explode in must vaporize, liquid gasoline just ingites and burns.

Stafroty
02-24-2006, 12:14 PM
and, how much vapours does come from gasoline, which is at high altituded at Freezin temperatures, i think there isnt much Vapours coming from it without heating it first with something.

If fueltanks Would Explode with such an force, or Oxygenbottles, why doesnt the plane itself where they are located, disapper Really totally, if the force of the explosion is so huge, that it Still hurst at some 50m distance alot `?

it seems that the range was bit reduced, im not sure. is sure got tracks from 4.04m where that explosion still is present in offline as in online.

oh, and does it really make any point, that now, we are reduced in Gun/cannon accuracy alot, and in that way, we are forced to go near to score hits, which then leads to suicide because of doing so??? what is the sense of thinking behind this ideologic thinking?

Stafroty
02-27-2006, 04:54 AM
we still have this issue, a little smaller but its there, still.

jjtasker
02-27-2006, 12:29 PM
Depnding on what blows up, a high order explosion travels outwards at 30,000 fps or more.. gasoline should not have the same effect because it is mainly a large fireball fuels tanks get opened and liquid becomes vapor. In general, fuel burns..vapor explodes.. While they would apply tremendous forces on the airframe, they would not produce the shockwave that a high order detonation would. Fragmentation is another story.. most of what I've seen in video's of planes is slow velocity particles.. unless ammunition or a bomb pre detonates.. I would think that engine damage or leading edge damage would be quite possible though..through ingesting flaming liquids or debris.

Stafroty
02-28-2006, 02:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">. most of what I've seen in video's of planes is slow velocity particles.. unless ammunition or a bomb pre detonates.. I would think that engine damage or leading edge damage would be quite possible though..through ingesting flaming liquids or debris. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but, in the movies everything in destroyed when there is fireball explosion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif cant you understand that? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif