PDA

View Full Version : Petrol and synthetetic gasoline



zugfuhrer
03-29-2007, 02:37 PM
Before the attack of the soviet union Nazi germany got many strategic material from the Soviet Union, like petrol from oil. I dont know but Ive been told that this fuel is much better than the synthetic "benzine" derived from coal.
In that chase LW would have preferred fuel instead of benzine.

Where there any changings in the engine settings when powered from benzine instead of petrol?
Or did LW use Benzine all the time?

zugfuhrer
03-29-2007, 02:37 PM
Before the attack of the soviet union Nazi germany got many strategic material from the Soviet Union, like petrol from oil. I dont know but Ive been told that this fuel is much better than the synthetic "benzine" derived from coal.
In that chase LW would have preferred fuel instead of benzine.

Where there any changings in the engine settings when powered from benzine instead of petrol?
Or did LW use Benzine all the time?

-HH-Dubbo
03-29-2007, 05:15 PM
This is a good question. Interestingly I heard that when the Luftwaffe used captured Russian fuel, the quality was that poor that it adversely affected their engines to the point that they avoided using it. Was the Russian petrol worse than German synthetic then??

Ratsack
03-30-2007, 02:14 AM
The German synthetic fuel was fine. They had continuous problems with shortages throughout the war. These became acute after the US resumed attacks on oil targets in the second half of 1944, at about the same time that the Soviets captured Ploesti.

However, shortages are not the same thing as poor quality. The C3 fuel used in the DB 601N and BMW 801 D-2 motors is generally regarded as being somewhere between Allied 100/130 and 100/150 octane avgas. One American report states it to be the equivalent of US 100/144 octane juice.

Whatever it was, I use it to highlight the fact that there was nothing wrong with German synthetic fuels.

cheers,
Ratsack

M_Gunz
03-30-2007, 03:12 AM
Synthesis did not end with benzene nor was that the only thing they cracked from coal.
Benzene exposure causes leukemia btw.

Sergio_101
03-30-2007, 03:12 AM
"benzine" has a base octane rating of about 90-95.
It has similar fuel air ratio (13.7:1) as
"gasoline".
Before TEL doped av gas was available benzine
or a benzine blend was preferred in racing planes.

As a motor fuel Benzine has no obvious disadvantages. However it is very poisonous.

Sergio

zugfuhrer
03-30-2007, 06:31 AM
With 110 octane flight fuel you can raise the manifold pressure and give the engine extra power. I have read that LW capacity was reduced because FW-190 used higher octane than the 109, and high octane benzine was in short supply.

JG14_Josf
03-30-2007, 07:00 AM
RON (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=124)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It should be noted that the power output of an engine also depends on the energy content of its fuel, which bears no simple relationship to the octane rating. Some people believe that adding a higher octane fuel to their engine will increase its performance or lessen its fuel consumption; this is false - engines perform best when using fuel with the octane rating they were designed for.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Another pointed out in reply that: This historical "issue" is based on a very common misapprehension about wartime fuel octane numbers. There are two octane numbers for each fuel, one for lean mix and one for rich mix, rich being always greater. So, for example, a common British aviation fuel of the later part of the war was 100/125. The misapprehension that German fuels have a lower octane number (and thus a poorer quality) arises because the Germans quoted the lean mix octane number for their fuels while the Allies quoted the rich mix number for their fuels. Standard German high-grade aviation fuel used in the later part of the war (given the designation C3) had lean/rich octane numbers of 100/130. The Germans would list this as a 100 octane fuel while the Allies would list it as 130 octane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poison (http://www.cadu.org.uk/)

general_kalle
03-30-2007, 07:06 AM
typical german. just like their tanks and weapons it was more Quality and upgrading than quantity.

while russian was direktly opposite

zugfuhrer
03-30-2007, 07:48 AM
This forum is a a big well of knowledge, thx.

High manifold pressure givs, more fuel/air mix in the engine, higher compression. This gives more power. Its like an 1.6 L engine takes the same amount of fuel/airmix as an 2.0 L and gives the same power.

Octane is simplified how high compression a mix of air and fuel can get without exploding, and explosion is not the same as ignited controlled combustion inside the cylinder of an engine.

General Kalle you are right, your statement about german quality exactly match how it is in this game, almost every aspect of LW a/c is high quality, damage profile, weapons, acceleration, stall behaviour, etc etc.

M_Gunz
03-30-2007, 10:34 AM
Manifold pressure and cylinder compression are separate things.

Manifold pressure lets you put more air (and fuel) through the engine faster, but,
compressing the air rasies the temperature of it so higher octane is needed to keep
that mix from pre-detonating. Some engines have fuel or additives sprayed right
into that compressed air (before, during, or after compression I am not sure which
did which way or where nitrous oxide of methanol/water mix was added) just to cool
it down and allow fuel of less octane or even higher boost/compression to be used.

Compression is a matter of how far the piston squeezes air after it is in cylinder
which also heats the mixture which needs higher octane to keep from pre-detonate.

And they both work together however -- you can have high compression with low or no
boost at all and you can have boost without high (cylinder) compression.

Supercharge started as only a way to have normal air pressure at higher altitudes.

Manifold pressure is measured before the throttle plate. The throttle plate then
regulates air (fuel adds by mixture, rich/lean) sucked into the cylinders.

It is engineering, how many ways to run the most air and fuel through engines in a
controlled manner that could be thought of... and then there were jet turbines, we
know how that worked out!

I mixed up benzine with benzene... one is not the other misspelled.
Benzine is petroleum ether by this below. Is that the same as engine starting ether?
If so then it must need pressurized system and be different to fill from gasoline.
If not then what? Dissolved into some other fuel/base?
As ether it would make a kickazz fuel but be also a hazard to service and in case of
fire, bail out!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia:

Petroleum ether, also known as benzine or X4, is a group of various volatile, highly flammable, liquid hydrocarbon mixtures used chiefly as nonpolar solvents.

Petroleum ether is obtained from petroleum refineries as the portion of the distillate which is intermediate between the lighter naphtha and the heavier kerosene. It has a specific gravity of between 0.6 and 0.8 depending on its composition.

Benzine should not be confused with benzene. Benzine is a mixture of alkanes, e.g., pentane, hexane, and heptane, whereas benzene is a cyclic, aromatic hydrocarbon, C6H6. Likewise, petroleum ether should not be confused with the class of organic compounds called ethers, which contain the -O- functional group.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: A little more looking down and there is Ligroin, possibly more fuel-usable?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ligroin is a refined saturated hydrocarbon petroleum fraction similar to petroleum ether used mainly as a laboratory solvent. It predominantly consists of C7 through C11 in the form of about 55% paraffins, 30% monocycloparaffins, 2% dicycloparaffins and 12% alkylbenzenes. It is nonpolar. Generally laboratory grade ligroin boils at 60 to 90 ?C, but the following fractions of petroleum ether are commonly available: 30 to 40 ?C, 40 to 60 ?C, 60 to 80 ?C, 80 to 100 ?C and sometimes 100 to 120 ?C. The 60 to 80 ?C fraction is often used as a replacement for hexane.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MORE EDIT JUST FOR BOFFO (somewhat on topic, a German group too!) LAFFS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Benzin" is a song by German band Rammstein, released as the first single from their album Rosenrot. Rammstein first played "Benzin" live at Berlin's Wuhlheide Park in June 2005. Theatrical flames shot twenty meters into the air during the live performance. Concert goers have stated that the song was on the same hard level with "Amerika".

Benzin is (arguably) about pyromania. Part of the song could also be interpreted as a political reference to the high gas prices being experienced in many countries around the world (Ich brauche Geld für Gasolin/I need money for gasoline). "Gasolin" is not actually a German word, but an English word made German. There was, however, a German chain of gas stations called "Gasolin."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

djetz
03-30-2007, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
typical german. just like their tanks and weapons it was more Quality and upgrading than quantity.

while russian was direktly opposite </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A quote attributed to Stalin: "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

M_Gunz
03-30-2007, 10:49 AM
There is something to say about equipment with 1/5th to 1/10th as many working parts being
easier to support logistically. For US equipment it was critical since all was used a long
way from manufacture. I have seen one source saying Tiger I had 370 working parts to stock!
Those are not all critical to every use of the machine but required for some use of would
not be there. To fix the machine was more work also same as fixing far more complicated
car. But, I would rather if I could afford it have the Porsche than the Chevrolet!

zugfuhrer
03-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Lets say that you have an engine and you have fuel with higher octane, you can raise the manifold pressure and get more power out of the engine. At the same engine higher manifold pressure gives higher compression in the engine. That is what I mean.
The best way of make air/fuel mixture pass through the engine faster is to increase the RPM.

You can also reduce the compression space but then it is not the same engine.


The water/ethanol mix for WEP is a trick to increase the weight of the air and therefore put more fuel into the mix and more power.

There is not much benefit in giving an engine water/ethanol if it is not running att maximum power. Alcohol makes the fuel/air mixture tolerate more compression. A methanole engine can work at much higher compression than a benzine engine.

In a fuel injected engine the throttle not necessary have the same importance as in a carburator engine.

To put Nitrogen into the engine is to add more oxygene into it and therefore you can add more fuel and give more power out of the engine. This also increase the compression, and can sometimes ruin the engine.

Dont mix the meaning of detonation, explosion and combustion.
TNT detonates, black-powder explodes and the process inside an engine is combustion.
It is an oxidation that gives heat that gives energy in all cases but the speed of the process is significant different.

Turbo-charge or supercharge are two different ways of pressurise a engine. In both cases a carburator feed engine is not as good as fuel injected one.

Sergio_101
03-30-2007, 06:03 PM
"Manifold pressure is measured before the throttle plate. The throttle plate then
regulates air (fuel adds by mixture, rich/lean) sucked into the cylinders."

Incorrect.
Manifold pressure is measured at the last phase of intake.
At the manifold between the intake valves and the
last supercharger or carb deck.

Gross compression is in fact the combination or compression ratio and boost pressure.

Ignoring detonation, higher compression yeilds
more power from a given volume of fuel/air.
Increased compression also yeilds greater effincy.

Higher boost pressures yeild more power from a given displacement.

Now add the detonation issue.

Higher compression forces lower boost pressures
because of detonation.

Lower compression allows for higher boost pressures.

It's all a trade off.

For all out power from a given displacement low compression
ane extreme boost are best, but the loss of effincy
is a problem.

Generaly in a gasoline Otto cycle engine between 6:1 and 8:1
is best for a supercharged engine.

Few combat worthy aircraft engines used more than 7:1 compression.
All were supercharged in some manner. Yes, even the Allison in the P-39
was supercharged.

The tricks to allow more boost were many.

Most combat worthy engines used intercoolers/aftercoolers for charge cooling.

Some used ADI (water/water methanol/methanol.)

A few used NiOx (Nitrous Oxide). NiOx carried extra Oxogyn and required
additional fuel, and was a power boost also.

Extremely high PN (Octane) ratings were the key to high boost
at a reasonable compression ratio.
This was also a trade off as lead fowling became a major problem.

Any octane rating over 100 becomes a performance number.
115/145 means 115 PN lean, 145 PN rich.

Civillian grades are always listed by the lean rating.
100LL grade is likely to yeild 120+ PN rich.

Sergio

luftluuver
03-30-2007, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Few combat worthy aircraft engines used more than 7:1 compression. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The DB605 compression ratios:

7.5/7.3 (B4 - 87 octane )- 8.5/8.3 (C3 - 96 octane)

Sergio_101
03-31-2007, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Few combat worthy aircraft engines used more than 7:1 compression. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The DB605 compression ratios:

7.5/7.3 (B4 - 87 octane )- 8.5/8.3 (C3 - 96 octane) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said, few used more than 7:1 compression.
The DB 605 was a notable exception.

Allison, P&W, RR, /Wright all tended to stay at 7:1 or lower
compression.
RR Merlins were 6:1 and later marks could be run at extreme boost pressures.
Packard developed the V-1650-9 (Merlin) to over 2,380 hp!

Bristol sleeve valve engines were typically of 7.2:2
compression while Napier Sabres were 7:1.

Splitting hairs are we luftluuver?

Sergio

M_Gunz
03-31-2007, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sergio_101:
"Manifold pressure is measured before the throttle plate. The throttle plate then
regulates air (fuel adds by mixture, rich/lean) sucked into the cylinders."

Incorrect.
Manifold pressure is measured at the last phase of intake.
At the manifold between the intake valves and the
last supercharger or carb deck.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't mind me, I did get that backward. It's measured AFTER the throttle plate, not before.

luftluuver
03-31-2007, 08:33 AM
No Segio, just pointing out one engine that was in the few. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif DB made some 56,000 engines.

jurinko
03-31-2007, 09:46 AM
Russian avgas was of poor quality, some 78 octane number if I remember well. They mixed it with lend-leased 100 octane fuel, while guard regiments flew on pure 100 octane.
L-L avgas of figh quality made 60% of Soviet overall avgas consumption during the WWII.

Sergio_101
03-31-2007, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
No Segio, just pointing out one engine that was in the few. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif DB made some 56,000 engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very few when you compare to all others. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sergio

Heliopause
04-01-2007, 04:38 AM
When British Hurricanes flew in the Murmansk area to help the russians out, they had to work on the russian fuel aswell. Read something about this but cant find the article at the moment. A Brit came with an idea of processing the fuel which seem to work.
Maybe someone on the forum knows a bit about this also.

Heliopause
04-01-2007, 12:09 PM
I was thinking about Broguet:

"The true story of Broquet began in 1941 when Henry Broquet, then
aged 26 and an RAF engineer specialising in Hurricane fighter aircraft
engines, was posted to Russia with 151 Wing. At that time the fuel
available in Russia proved incompatible with the Hurricane's engine
and therefore modifications to the fuel were necessary. Consequently
Henry Broquet was seconded to a team of chemists and engineers
who were given the crucial task of perfecting a means by which the
aircraft engine could perform to its maximum efficiency using only
local fuel. As some of the team already had experience in tin catalysis
they concentrated their efforts in this area, eventually developing a
simple but very effective fuel catalyst."