PDA

View Full Version : Suggestion for Manual pitch and trim



Fehler
09-10-2005, 04:00 AM
After doing some catch-up reading in the forums I got an idea which I derrived from some of the posts I came across...

1. Manual prop pitch exploit:

Perhaps it would be possible to force a person interested in using manual pitch in the Bf109 to lower his RPM's before switching from manual to auto or auto to manual similar to the way one must do to engage MW-50. This would totally eliminate the exploit and force the full penalty fro over-reving the engine in the plane.

2. Trim exploit:

Allow instant trim for only the first 5-10 degrees but then add in a time penalty similar to that we had in previous versions. That way one could have the ability to trim for level flight like real world planes could trim, but the exploit of going to full negative or full positive trim in the flick of a thumb would cease to exist.

I am suggesting these ideas as work arounds for the limitations imposed by the game and as a concession to appease both sides of the debate.

Thoughts, ideas, criticisms?

Fehler
09-10-2005, 04:00 AM
After doing some catch-up reading in the forums I got an idea which I derrived from some of the posts I came across...

1. Manual prop pitch exploit:

Perhaps it would be possible to force a person interested in using manual pitch in the Bf109 to lower his RPM's before switching from manual to auto or auto to manual similar to the way one must do to engage MW-50. This would totally eliminate the exploit and force the full penalty fro over-reving the engine in the plane.

2. Trim exploit:

Allow instant trim for only the first 5-10 degrees but then add in a time penalty similar to that we had in previous versions. That way one could have the ability to trim for level flight like real world planes could trim, but the exploit of going to full negative or full positive trim in the flick of a thumb would cease to exist.

I am suggesting these ideas as work arounds for the limitations imposed by the game and as a concession to appease both sides of the debate.

Thoughts, ideas, criticisms?

jeroen-79
09-10-2005, 04:36 AM
How about just implementing them properly, instead of employing fake measures to counter fake exploits.

If a pilot of plane x could directly control pitch in real life then so should he in the game.
If the engine of said plane blows up under condition y in real life then so should it in the game.

Auto pitch should be there as an aide.
When it is off the pitch works as in real life, when on the pitch works in an easy way.
Servers could prohibit it's use.

Likewise, trim should be there to easy the pilot's work on the stick.
It should not change the plane's flying behaviour, increase it's turrate, keep it from stalling longer or what not.

Timedelays on a trim axis IMHO only make it difficult for those who actually want to trim their planes.

There is nothing wrong with the use of aides in a game.
If people object to others getting teir cake and eating it then a server could force an aide to be on or off.
Or force people to choose at the start and stick with it.

HeinzBar
09-13-2005, 09:22 AM
S!,
Not bad ideas Fehler. I believe that the 'pp exploit' is being dealt w/ in the upcoming patch. So, that should be water under the bridge. However, the trim has not been mentioned as an object of interest. I understand what you're saying, and it sounds like a good compromise. I currently like the instant trim even if I don't have rotaries on my throttle. I can't see how this would be a problem for most people trimming their planes to level flight. It would only hamper the notorious trim slider aces that one sees on occassion.

I'm at work now and my mind doesn't see things as clearly as it should while I'm here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe I'm missing something, but the ideas sound good to me.

HB

JG53Harti
09-13-2005, 09:45 AM
How about a correct prop-pitch for all planes ?
Not flying all the time with 100 % without having problems

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Good ideas Fehler. Perhaps Oleg could do away with neutral trim hotkeys as well. This is most likely why is exploited so much. Crank the trim and with a press of a button your back to neutral. This makes it far to easy to exploit trim.

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 02:36 PM
If the aircraft had no trim, then that adjustment should not be available .. IIRC, 109 had no elevator trim in cockpit .. therefore any trim adjustments should not be possible .. correct ?
Same as early zero has no rudder trim.

Also .. if you are trimming for level flight, you would not need "instant trim" so a delay of a half second per 10% of adjustment (to simulate turning the trim wheel - have you ever done that in real life ?, it takes a few seconds).
A half second delay per 10% adjustment would make it 5 seconds to go from neutral trim to full up or down .. not an inordinate amount of time when trimming for level flight, but enough to kill off the trim slide aces, perhaps.

Even if Havok's suggestion was not implemented .. by this method clicking on the neutral trim key would still take the trim tab 5 seconds to go back to neutral ... also helping to eliminate the trim exploit.

carguy_
09-13-2005, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
1. Manual prop pitch exploit:

Perhaps it would be possible to force a person interested in using manual pitch in the Bf109 to lower his RPM's before switching from manual to auto or auto to manual similar to the way one must do to engage MW-50. This would totally eliminate the exploit and force the full penalty fro over-reving the engine in the plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you and many guys missjudge normal manual pitch usage and cheating by it.

Normal:I switch to manual and instad of 2700RPM at 110% power I go to 2950RPM.Thus I risk faster engine overheat and breakdown but I get more power.

Exploit:Switching between manual and auto.I enable manual,go to 3100RPM(too much) and immediately enable auto pp.This way I get even more power but I avoid engine overrev consequences.


My proposition:

1.Limit RPM to 2900 even on manual.
or
2.Delay manual/auto (auto/manual) switch time by 3 seconds.

2. Trim exploit:


My proposition:

Implement ignoring 2 trim 'clicks' out of 3.This way if you make 30 clicks only 10 are counted as actual clicks by the aplication.
This slows down trim significantly and forces the player to use trim only in combat-free conditions.

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 03:10 PM
Assuming you "click" your trim .. what about if you have a rotary, or a slider ?
I don't want to stop people from being able to use a slider or rotary .. indeed, I have a rotary programmed for my rudder and elevator trim .. but a delay, much the same as the flaps slowly lower, even of you kick in full flaps immediately .. would take away most of the trim exploitation, but leave the trim usage viable.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 03:14 PM
We saw the results of trim delay and it crippled the simulation and development of flight modelling for years.

Some of the more honest Online simmers here report that the slider trim exploit no longer works (or is not as advantageous as it used to be) -- I don't know since I don't have a slider. I suggest if sliders are still an Online dogfight game cheating problem, then don't use a slider (I suggest mapping elevator trim to mousewheel). But "others" use it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I guess I am saying Oleg should just make seperate trim options or a different sim version for the Online FB/PF dogfight shooter, where flying and trimming aircraft was never popular (only the Online Kill is popular http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

Grey_Mouser67
09-13-2005, 03:45 PM
The trim exploit, to me, is most obvious and harmful in high speed turns where elevator authority is modelled. The trim negates that disadvantage.

I like the idea of being able to instantly trim, but it is its affect on the turning ability that is disturbing. I feel like, based on things I've read, that trim did in fact ease control forces but never to the degree which I have witnessed in this game....if there was a way to trim but not increase turning ability that would be the way to go, but without an understanding of how it is programmed, I can't comment whether it would be easy or hard.

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 03:51 PM
Luthor .. in what way did it cripple the simulation ?
having a half second delay per percentage shopuld do nothing but cripple the exploit.
I f someone wants to set the trim at full up and battle it while flying level on the off chance it will help them in a fight ... more power to them, but I think it would keep the ability to trim at a reasonable level, whilst making it too slow to exploitm mid combat.

Anyway .. I'm not a programmer, and it might not be possible, but it seems to me that it would work.

FritzGryphon
09-13-2005, 04:09 PM
As far as trim, I liked the way it was pre-4.01. Slower response, but by no way difficult to trim for level flight.

But, if 1C and crew thinks trim could realistically be changed quickly, I full agree with it being how it is. My only experience with trim wheels, and probably most of the posters here, is with civilian planes. In a Cessna 152, for example, the wheel is partially hidden so it's difficult to turn quickly (for safety reasons, probably).

As far as trim reducing control forces, it's supposed to do that, so I don't see any reason for that to change. Pilots historically used trim to pull out of dives, and lessen elevator heaviness in turns.

One factor that the game doesn't model, however, is forces on the trimmer itself. Pilot accounts indicate that, at high speeds, the trim wheel becomes stiffer and more difficult to turn, due to forces on the trim tab and/or stabilizer. If the game would model this, the trimmer behavior would be even better.

So, like flap deploy rate varies with speed, so would trim.

This would also eliminate any percieved 'exploit' concerning high-speed turns, by making the trim respond slower at those speeds. At lower speeds, the trim would respond instantly, like it does now.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 04:15 PM
RAF74_Poker, you know very well that pre-4.01, Oleg delayed trim to stop Online slider cheating (only partially successful), and this made trim *completely* unusable for correctly flying the aircraft. Oleg crippled his own simulation so a tiny 5% of purchasing customers would not lose their valued internet Brownie Points.

And we are seeing it again. Oleg please "slow down" FB/PF trim so we won't lose interent Brownie Points from those cheaters.

Kuna15
09-13-2005, 04:16 PM
About trim proposition Fehler, I'm not an expert but I think your proposal is maybe better solution than totally delayed (before) and no delay trim at all (as it is now).

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 04:27 PM
Fritz:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">as far as trim, I liked the way it was pre-4.01. Slower response, but by no way difficult to trim for level flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Elevator trim is used for steady flight...ie...trim for level, climb or descent. This was the most common sloppy mistake made by the gamers here who complain about trim cheating, even those who "claimed" to fly real life airplanes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fritz, I too have flown Cessnas if you wish to play this game at this webboard, and 4.01 is closer than the slow trim of earlier versions.

I also notice Online dogfight gamers only care about elevator trim being "excessive" but all other trims are just "too hard" to use. This Online community focus on elevator trim and the loss of Brownie Points is so transparent its funny, and is one indication of the arcade game nature of Oleg's Online community that he develops for (and has crippled his sim for in the past).

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 04:29 PM
Kuna:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">About trim proposition Fehler, I'm not an expert but I think your proposal is maybe better solution than totally delayed (before) and no delay trim at all (as it is now). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The solution is don't use a slider. Problem Solved. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Very Simple.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 04:35 PM
Basically, my real problem here is...

So, only elevator trim is not realistic? Rudder and aileron trim is "okay?"

Or is elevator trim the only trim abused by Cheaters in the Online communty? So, delay the elevator trim (make more "realistic" we huff and puff) but leave rudder and aileron trim alone?

WWMaxGunz
09-13-2005, 05:04 PM
Prop pitch mode switch exploit could not happen if the default pitch on
change to manual is not 100%. Simple as that. No need for the platform
of people wanting to take manual mode for 109's away.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try holding the trim key down a few seconds and see if there is no delay.

And the instant neutral is a definite key exploit enabler. Will we get a
timed neutral?

Really, fighter pilots did adjust trim for more than pullouts. You are
supposed to trim for whatever speed you are at, whenever your speed changes.
You do that to relieve stick forces. You might not go for zero force at
center but if you are slowing way down in turns, you trim the nose up as
you are able otherwise your plane is out of trim. That is real, ask those
pilots who are still around or just read, Bud Anderson wrote explicitly.

Of course if you have a lack of any experience and some kind of anal phobia
then you won't trim except in the tamest of circumstances. At that point,
anyone who flies right will seem like they must be cheating and you probably
will "get all righteous" on them even though the mistake is yours.

PFS_BlackBird
09-13-2005, 06:12 PM
Whatever happens, manual mode should stay. It was there in real life and the aces of aces did use it. I am for realism instead of fake solutions to fake exploits.

Keep up the good work Oleg and team!


BB

I am not a blue pilot btw.

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 06:26 PM
Luthor .. you seem pretty anxious to keep this exploit in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So far as realism ..... please let me know which WW2 plane ... or even a modern one could go from full up elevator trim to full down elevator trim in half a second like you can with a slider.
I'm not saying trim should adjust at a slow rate .. but maybe at the average rate that could be adjusted in real life ... if anyone has access to WW2 planes, or pilots of said birds .. maybe they could test it and let us know.

What's the time to turn the elevator trim wheel from full one way to full opposite of the 109 ? Spit ? 190 ? 47 ? 38 ? La5 ? Yak 9 ?

take the average times and let that be the mark by which trim is adjusted.... now that would be realistic ! (I merely used a half second per 10% as an illustration of the concept)

After all, Luthor .... that's what you are asking for, right ? realistic trim ?
Obviously .. any plane that had no elevator, rudder, aileron trim would not be able to have trim in game - that's being realistic.
And this should apply to all trims ... rudder and aileron too ... after all, kicking in full aileron trim would help you roll, right ?? So let's slow the speed of trim on all aspects ... not so that it is unrealistic ... but to a point that it is realistic.

And, Luthor ... since you don't have a problem w/ the trim, and apparently trim via a keypress ... this would obviously not affect you and your trimming since it wouldn't affect usual inflight trimming... right ? So, I fail to see the grounds for your disagreement. It's not like you're using the exploit, so you're obviously not argueing to keep it for that reason ......................... right ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 06:44 PM
RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So let's slow the speed of trim on all aspects ... not so that it is unrealistic ... but to a point that it is realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its realistic already, as agreed by all the All real life pilots here...as long as you don't use your Online gamer slider on the dogfighter servers. How many times must we cover this with this Online dogfighter community? How many times?

Don't use slider and you won't get instant full trim response. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

lol


RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Luthor...please let me know which WW2 plane ... or even a modern one could go from full up elevator trim to full down elevator trim in half a second like you can with a slider. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stop using slider on your Squad dogfighter servers. We covered this already. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I suggest you map elevator trim to mousewheel.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 07:06 PM
This may be worth a good response...sorry for all the hammers above!!!!

RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And, Luthor ... since you don't have a problem w/ the trim, and apparently trim via a keypress ... this would obviously not affect you and your trimming since it wouldn't affect usual inflight trimming... right ? So, I fail to see the grounds for your disagreement. It's not like you're using the exploit, so you're obviously not argueing to keep it for that reason ......................... right ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I play Offline only right now, so I don't use a slider to cheat any gamers out of their kill scores. To prevent the Online slider cheat, old versions of FB/PF trim control were radically slowed down with the result that you could not reliably trim the aircraft for steady flight. However, Oleg's old FM did not require much trimming, and so very few Online and Offline simmers actually trimmed their aircraft -- this came into view easily after 4.01 New FM when the old timer and highly hehe "experienced" Online dogfight community floundered because the New FM required trim and fast trim response to control it. The old timer "experienced realistic" Online dogfight community never had to trim before this, and so they never learned. That's the biggest lesson I take from this webboard and Online community that huffs and puffs how "realistic" they are.

As you have read in my above posts, I map trim to the already slow moving mousewheel. Its far more realistic feeling than keyboard button, and even in the days of crippled or "online" trim, the mouswheel could not offer the Online dogfight slider cheat. I am still freaked that flight sim developer Oleg MADDOX once crippled his own simulation just because a very few Online dogfighters were cheating each other out of their internet kill scores.

Its often said that Oleg killed Offline simming with the old slow trim in an attempt to save Online play, but since the crying after 4.01, Its become apparent that Oleg hurt the Online community too because he encouraged them to fly without using any trim (also, the simplistic Old FM just didnt' need much trim).

New idea...slow trim only hurts Online play in the long run even if a few use sliders to cheat.

Recon_609IAP
09-13-2005, 07:43 PM
Luthor:

"What you do is not use a slider. Try it without slider.

just...try it.
"

What are you talking about mate? I simply said I like to make small incremental trim adjustments that are applied 'instantly'. What does a slider have to do with that? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Edit: I meant to hit reply not edit. oh well continue on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 07:59 PM
609IAP:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I like to make small incremental changes to keep my aircraft well trimmed. I do not like the delays. So, that being said I like the idea of 'quick trim' up to a certain percentage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you do is not use a slider. Try it without slider.

just...try it.

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 08:51 PM
The point is, Luthor ...and I'm going to try and type slowly so you actually understand it this time ........ that it is possible to have unrealistic trim by way of the slider - you aknowledge it yourself .... so slowing the trim down ... even by only a small margin will kill off the trim exploit ... and the fact that you use the "slower" mouse wheel, means you will never even know that the change has been effected. Get it ??
I propose that the trim movement is slowed only enough to block the exploitation of the slider, but not enough that those who use the trim correctly... be it by a slower "wheel trim" or by only making small incremental adjustments will never even notice the difference !
Now do you understand ???
It's not like I'm saying the trim should take 30 minutes to change ... I'm saying it should be controlled so that you cannot exploit it .. but that it should work as normal .. if the trim is deployed at a normal speed ... whatever that may be, then the exploitation is minimised.

While you may think you're the most realistic deployer of trim flying iL2, it doesn't mean that everyone else is.
And there's quite a few people who fly online, just because you don't care for it, doesn't mean it should be dismissed.
Simply saying not to use a slider is a cop out.
You're envisioning some radical reduction in the trim movement, and I'm simply saying to slow it slightly .. only to the point it cripples the exploit, but not the normal use.

Now, I hope you understand, and can manage to avoid your standard glib answer that is no answer at all.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 09:27 PM
RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You're envisioning some radical reduction in the trim movement,... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We have seen 3 years of FB/PF trim slowed to useless in an attempt to prevent Online dogfight slider "exploit" at the request of a tiny Online dogfight community. Here we go again?

But, the simple Old FM flight model didn't require much elevator trim, so very few people used it including myself to some extent, and I often gave up the trim was so slow and useless. If Oleg plans to continue with a more realistic FM he will need matching realism in fast trim response. I don't know if Oleg can do the slowdown changes you and Fehler request, but I think he should not because the Online dogfighters here are asking for elevator trim *alone* to be slowed down to prevent loss of Online skill score...more on this below...

We shall repeat; do not use a slider for elevator trim control. I understand that "other" Online dogfighters may use the slider to cheat, but the focus on slowing down elevator trim *alone* (ignoring rudder/aileron trim) shows there is no substance and in fact, blatant Lying, on the part of this arcade game Online community in their claims of slow trim is more realistic -- only with Slider may this be true, but no, this Online dogfight community fails to make that distinction -- this Online dogfight community fails the larger FB/PF community.

Anyway, the more honest Online simmers here have reported that the old slider trim cheat does not work anymore, or is less advantageous now than it used to be. There may (or may not) be nothing to fix except the raw fear of Online gamers losing their kill score (I suggest the best BnZ attacks are never seen so the slider trim is largely a moot point).

Did I mention....until Oleg can find a different way to program elevator trim, do not use slider for elevator trim control. Problem Solved. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

RAF74_Poker
09-13-2005, 10:59 PM
Obviously I didn't type slow enough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 11:02 PM
Nope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

triggerhappyfin
09-14-2005, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So let's slow the speed of trim on all aspects ... not so that it is unrealistic ... but to a point that it is realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its realistic already, as agreed by all the All real life pilots here...as long as you don't use your Online gamer slider on the dogfighter servers. How many times must we cover this with this Online dogfighter community? How many times?

Don't use slider and you won't get instant full trim response. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

lol


RAF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Luthor...please let me know which WW2 plane ... or even a modern one could go from full up elevator trim to full down elevator trim in half a second like you can with a slider. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stop using slider on your Squad dogfighter servers. We covered this already. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I suggest you map elevator trim to mousewheel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LMAO...The entire reason to all this arguing is that most of you fly with crippled planes by not using the trimfeature on the best way...on a slider. It´s the closest RL usage we get.
The fact that most people use keyboard or dont bother with it at all dont make it a cheat.
Make use of it and enjoy it better.
Set prop pitch and flaps on a slider too and there you go.
I have it all on slider...don´t make me ace tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
But it´s a lot more fun and easier to trim the plane out at any speed and throttle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

RAF238thKnight
09-14-2005, 05:03 AM
I cant believe we are back on this subject. I really dont like to post here because of the flamer ZOO crew. I see only posts from professed german aircraft fliers on the trim issue, not gonna work fellas. The 2 British planes you are attacking is quite evident. Hurricane and Spitfire. Both planes used a wheel to adjust trim. On that note if anyone has flown either plane PLS inform this community the percentage the wheel had to be turned to get a reaction out of the PLANE. Dose trim help yes especially against an overmodeled 109G2 LOL. Now the flaming begins.

Leave the trim alone most can't bat turn any more and as the FM gets harder they will pay with over triming in a turn they will stall and dye.

Try it in FS 2004 Hurricane Series from SOH or the CFS 3 1% Hurricane from Avhistory. Stall being one characteristic Under modeled in this game. Objective is to keep moving forward.

Knight

triggerhappyfin
09-14-2005, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
I cant believe we are back on this subject. I really dont like to post here because of <span class="ev_code_RED">the flamer ZOO crew.</span> .............
Knight </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the "flaming" indicates a question is getting ppl´s attention in one or other way.
Discussions on any matter is healthy to the community. During a discussion one might even discover some errors in ones owne views(hard to admit tho) but the major acchievement is that an issue is highlighted and some learning from it is available to everyone who cares to read.

If the "flaming" includes personal attacks or insulting in any way, it should be deleted by the mods without hesitation. Actually insults we can just consider as what they really are...evidence of the posters lack of manners, and leave them as such.

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 05:35 AM
You know what...
This is unrealistic (using insta-wheel), on that everyone agrees. I never use it, never really bothered, it ain't my style.

But why not remove elevator trim control from HOTAS control section? It would solve trim wheel problem. However, it wouldn't prevent someone to pre-program script for full elevator up.

Anyway I am more offline player like Lexx. Also I never used it while online, so I can live with this or 3.04 trim, this whole thing don't bother me too much and I will be satisfied with whatever you guys can agree on.

RAF238thKnight
09-14-2005, 05:46 AM
So are we discussing which is much different then what I have noticed here on this forum. Now on the possible error in the FM of evelvator trim development(which there is none IMHO)or are we talking about changing it back.

Being an Allied Confessed flyer, why I just prefer the British planes. Am I a noob, Not that I am awhere of. Do I understand the problem yes.

Other Solutions:
1. More Aircraft Stress Damage when trim is not applied correctly. BATTURN DEATH will call it.
2. Increase Stall if over applied.
3. Blackout Quicker.

These changes can be added with out distroying the Simulation of the FM.

Knight

triggerhappyfin
09-14-2005, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
So are we discussing which is much different then what I have noticed here on this forum. Now on the possible error in the FM of evelvator trim development(which there is none IMHO)or are we talking about changing it back.

Being an Allied Confessed flyer, why I just prefer the British planes. Am I a noob, Not that I am awhere of. Do I understand the problem yes.

Other Solutions:
1. More Aircraft Stress Damage when trim is not applied correctly. BATTURN DEATH will call it.
2. Increase Stall if over applied.
3. Blackout Quicker.

These changes can be added with out distroying the Simulation of the FM.

Knight </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this "batturn" possible? I´ve tried it but not achieved any. Only thottle down and deploy flaps for a brief moment helps me turn quickly. Best done on top of a zoom, othervise you loose all your energy.

exos_
09-14-2005, 07:23 AM
With v4.01 re-introduced instant trim...mapped to a slider, you can actually fly the plane with nothing but trim inputs from the axis.

During a normal "blackout", you have no stick control...however, you still have control over throttle, flaps, and TRIM throughout the "blackout"

Coupled with third party video software, you can set hotkeys for Gamma settings so you can hit a key while in flight raising your Gamma settings that allow you to "see" through the "blackout". Thus, you have full control, and enough vision to stay on the offensive.

We add all these together, and we see maneuvers like very highspeed split S's, highspeed dives to pulling straight up and still maneuvering etc. etc. The online guys see these all too often.

Most likely, if trim, flaps, and throttle input were eliminated during blackout (like stick input was in FB 1.0)....trim would not have to be changed from what it is now, and we wouldn't be seeing these wild maneuvers online.

What we would be seeing, is alot of lawndarts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RAF74_Poker
09-14-2005, 07:57 AM
Exactly !!!!!!!!!!!

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 08:01 AM
Good idea exos, trim is not a Cheating problem but seeing through blackout is. Interesting, and refreshingly different.

exos:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">With v4.01 re-introduced instant trim...mapped to a slider, you can actually fly the plane with nothing but trim inputs from the axis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With 4.01 I can do that now with keyboard or mousewheel, as my instructor did the same thing in Cessna152..."hey watch this for awhile" ... which shows 4.01 brings more correct fast trim response, and thankfully a flight model that needs it.

Kuna15:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But why not remove elevator trim control from HOTAS control section? It would solve trim wheel problem. However, it wouldn't prevent someone to pre-program script for full elevator up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, HOTAS is where mousewheel is located. Do Not Mess. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

triggerhappyfin
09-14-2005, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exos_:
With v4.01 re-introduced instant trim...mapped to a slider, you can actually fly the plane with nothing but trim inputs from the axis.

During a normal "blackout", you have no stick control...however, you still have control over throttle, flaps, and TRIM throughout the "blackout"

<span class="ev_code_RED">Coupled with third party video software, you can set hotkeys for Gamma settings so you can hit a key while in flight raising your Gamma settings that allow you to "see" through the "blackout". Thus, you have full control, and enough vision to stay on the offensive. </span>
We add all these together, and we see maneuvers like very highspeed split S's, highspeed dives to pulling straight up and still maneuvering etc. etc. The online guys see these all too often.

Most likely, if trim, flaps, and throttle input were eliminated during blackout (like stick input was in FB 1.0)....trim would not have to be changed from what it is now, and we wouldn't be seeing these wild maneuvers online.

What we would be seeing, is alot of lawndarts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Cheaters we cannot fully avoid. There will allways be something they come up with, but the cheat you mention here sounds too complicated to have a lot of users.</span>

I thought all inputs were locked during blackout http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 08:07 AM
Maybe trimming with slider in a blackout works... I never tried it. Offliner players are just slow and not very competitive!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WWMaxGunz
09-14-2005, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF74_Poker:
Luthor .. you seem pretty anxious to keep this exploit in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So far as realism ..... please let me know which WW2 plane ... or even a modern one could go from full up elevator trim to full down elevator trim in half a second like you can with a slider.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have a slider to use unless I want to sacrifice the throttle that I'm totally self
trained on (ie, in a fight I automatically use it as a throttle so I'm no good at using it
for trim come fight time) so don't get me wrong here:

IL2 series limits arm strength to one arm steady use ability. So you can look at fast trim
as a way to use both arms. It is not perfect but it's not worse than the system itself.

BTW if you've ever used trim in a real plane flying, you'd know how different the press
and guess key trim we have is. But then given the way our joysticks work, there is no
way that manual set trim in the sim can be the same as real.

WWMaxGunz
09-14-2005, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exos_:
With v4.01 re-introduced instant trim...mapped to a slider, you can actually fly the plane with nothing but trim inputs from the axis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a real thing as long as the control is not fast.

The big trouble with delayed trim in the sim is that it's far too easy to under or over
trim and almost impossible to trim as real where you can feel the stick force go to zero
while you hold the controls where you want them. Impossible to do with non-FF PC
joysticks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">During a normal "blackout", you have no stick control...however, you still have control over throttle, flaps, and TRIM throughout the "blackout" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting indeed. I'd be willing to bet that Oleg and crew missed that entirely!
Really, if Ivan can get that across the plate unless it's already known, it'd be good.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Coupled with third party video software, you can set hotkeys for Gamma settings so you can hit a key while in flight raising your Gamma settings that allow you to "see" through the "blackout". Thus, you have full control, and enough vision to stay on the offensive.

We add all these together, and we see maneuvers like very highspeed split S's, highspeed dives to pulling straight up and still maneuvering etc. etc. The online guys see these all too often.

Most likely, if trim, flaps, and throttle input were eliminated during blackout (like stick input was in FB 1.0)....trim would not have to be changed from what it is now, and we wouldn't be seeing these wild maneuvers online.

What we would be seeing, is alot of lawndarts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good synthesis of understandings!

Already one part has been added with stick control during blackout.
Now it's time for the rest as BoB will need this also.

Jetbuff
09-14-2005, 10:25 PM
Fehler, to answer your original question: I think that the compromises you suggested are among the better ones. However, I don't think a compromise is necessary in the first place.

WRT the prop-pitch-pulse thing I find it hard to believe that whatever advantage it offers is significant enough to warrant the hooplah. Then again, I fly with people I trust to not go to such lengths and I almost never use manual pitch on the 109. Even on the 190, I usually prefer to let the kommandogerat do it for me. My only fear is that we might once again be subjected to some stop-gap measure that does nothing to address the problem like the sloth-trim.

WRT the trim-so-called-exploit; it simply is no longer an issue. What exactly is the advantage of blacking out, snapping a wing or going into an accelerated stall? People have simply got to stop finding something to blame besides themselves when they get shot down.

FYI: It wasn't that slow in the real world either:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">[In the 109]... Five three-quarter turns of a 11.7" diameter wheel on the pilot's left are needed to move the adjustable tailplane through its full 12-degrees range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's 5 turns stop to stop. Thinking that achieving full trim in 1 second instead of 3 is that big of a deal is truly preposterous for both the complainer(s) and the would-be exploiter(s) - they are both deluded.

Jetbuff
09-14-2005, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exos_:
During a normal "blackout", you have no stick control...however, you still have control over throttle, flaps, and TRIM throughout the "blackout" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting indeed. I'd be willing to bet that Oleg and crew missed that entirely!
Really, if Ivan can get that across the plate unless it's already known, it'd be good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now this is a valid gripe. Blackout should equal complete loss of control, all controls. It's logical, realistic and prevents a potential exploit - still feel sorry for people who will go to such lengths though. These are the same people using video driver hacks to reduce their cockpit to a wire frame so they can see through it and reading the log while in flight. Sad, sad people for whom winning in this simple game seems to be their ultimate objective. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

NonWonderDog
09-15-2005, 11:49 AM
Uh, guys, why don't you actually test the trim instead of going along with whatever the sensationalism of the moment is?

Trim is *NOT* instant. This is incredibly easy to test. Just sit on the tarmac and hold the arrow keys down to trim, recording the amount of time it takes to go lock to lock. Then bind trim to your throttle and do the same thing.

I think you'll find that it takes *exactly* the same amount of time to trim the plane, no matter what method you use. There's a small repeat delay in the keyboard so you can still use clicks instead of holding the key down, but once it starts moving freely it's every bit as fast as the "evil" slider trim.

WWMaxGunz
09-15-2005, 12:31 PM
Only "Please Fix" issue (that has a chance of happening) I can see is fixing trim
to not be changing in blackout, even without being GLOC just because of cheats
able to see during blackout. Really, it'd be neat to have trim not usable when
G's (they must have some way of knowing when to grey/black out even if devicelink
doesn't report G's) rise above some amount.

exos_
09-15-2005, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
Uh, guys, why don't you actually test the trim instead of going along with whatever the sensationalism of the moment is?

Trim is *NOT* instant. This is incredibly easy to test. Just sit on the tarmac and hold the arrow keys down to trim, recording the amount of time it takes to go lock to lock. Then bind trim to your throttle and do the same thing.

I think you'll find that it takes *exactly* the same amount of time to trim the plane, no matter what method you use. There's a small repeat delay in the keyboard so you can still use clicks instead of holding the key down, but once it starts moving freely it's every bit as fast as the "evil" slider trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One dimensional thinking is the reason after all these years so many people still don't understand "trimsliding".

It has ALWAYS been more than just the trim.

Reread my previous post,and pay attention to all the elements that have to come together in order to produce the kinds of maneuvers we see.


My use of the term 'instant trim', was refering to the difference in trim delay between previous versions and 4.01.

NOT that it was different between keyboard and slider.
The advantage to slider in this instance is immediate and precise response, allowing precise flight through nothing but trim input. (not unlike the difference between flying from a joystick as opposed to the keyboard)

Yes, they crippled 'trimsliding' with delayed trim (at the expense of rl trim) in previous patches...It IS back in full force now.

I believe they could kill it, simply by eliminating ALL input during blackout.

Kuna15
09-15-2005, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
It's logical, realistic and prevents a potential exploit - still feel sorry for people who will go to such lengths though. These are the same people using video driver hacks to reduce their cockpit to a wire frame so they can see through it and reading the log while in flight. Sad, sad people for whom winning in this simple game seems to be their ultimate objective. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not know that such things could even be done. One more reason for sticking with offline more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Jetbuff
09-15-2005, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
I did not know that such things could even be done. One more reason for sticking with offline more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, there are other solutions like joining a good squad with reputable opponents. I have rarely had reason to doubt an opponent's integrity since back in VEF days. Now, we host Clash of Titans and the sportsmanship is incredible: http://simjunkie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78

WWMaxGunz
09-15-2005, 09:15 PM
Well yeah but JG1 and JG2 have always held high standards, also RAF74 and the Escadrille.
Oh did I like to tangle with the Esc fliers in 1998! That Uriel was one hot pilot!
Sadly, many good squads have also disappeared over the years.

Pentallion
09-15-2005, 11:50 PM
I've been seeing bat turns again since the trim slider came back. They were gone after the trim got delayed. Now they're back. Funny, I guess I was just a better pilot who didn't get shot down so much and so wasn't grumpy at coincidentally the exact same time instant trim capability disappeared and then, just when delayed trim vanished, I got back into the habit of blaming "cheats" on my dying. I just am imagining all those bat turns I keep seeing.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RAF238thKnight
09-16-2005, 05:02 AM
I believe the best solution is to:

1. Fix stall speeds or Add torque.
2. Remove Surface controls to work while blackout is occuring.

Again my aim is realism I have always spoken that way here on this forum. If there are things wrong with allied and axis fighters then get them as close to real as you can then as a pilot I will deal with my rides short comings and still find a way to shoot people down and get shot down lol.

Good luck on the NXT patch hope you come up with the nxt level we are going to see in the BoB.

P.S. PLS add a way to set Netspeed on the server side, So If you are running a highend environment everyone is on the same speed.

Knight

NonWonderDog
09-16-2005, 07:51 AM
Well, being able to trim the plane while blacked out is a problem, but not what the original poster was focusing on.

This:
"Allow instant trim for only the first 5-10 degrees but then add in a time penalty similar to that we had in previous versions. That way one could have the ability to trim for level flight like real world planes could trim, but the exploit of going to full negative or full positive trim in the flick of a thumb would cease to exist."

...is not very different than the way it is now. The trim wheels take time to move to position, no matter how fast you input your trim settings. The "delay" is still there, it's just shorter and no longer completely aggravating. The big change from 3.x is that the keyboard is directly tied to the wheel instead of setting the end position. If you hold down the key, the trim wheel will now stop at the exact moment you let go of the key.

Jetbuff
09-16-2005, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pentallion:
I've been seeing bat turns again since the trim slider came back. They were gone after the trim got delayed. Now they're back. Funny, I guess I was just a better pilot who didn't get shot down so much and so wasn't grumpy at coincidentally the exact same time instant trim capability disappeared and then, just when delayed trim vanished, I got back into the habit of blaming "cheats" on my dying. I just am imagining all those bat turns I keep seeing.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's called the "placebo" effect Wildcard... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Ritter_Cuda
09-16-2005, 09:22 AM
ok I've read though most of this 3 pages and I think it can be sumed up with :
keyboard trim ok slider to fast
why not just slow down the slider?
Cuda

WWMaxGunz
09-16-2005, 11:13 AM
Slow trim never stopped the turn exploits, just made them less flexible.
The new FM makes the exploit itself less of an exploit but if you don't
trim for your speed then anyone who does must seem to be cheating.

Learn to fly better!