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hueywolf123
05-30-2006, 08:53 PM
http://uboat.net/men/willenbrock.htm
This is him, the real Kaluen, the one on which the book was based.
I did say 'based' as I'm sure someone will say "but he died in the final scene", the book was based on the journalists experiences over the entire war, the patrol he set out on was with this man in his boat.
I hope I haven't shattered any illusions with this link, well worth a look though

hueywolf123
05-30-2006, 08:53 PM
http://uboat.net/men/willenbrock.htm
This is him, the real Kaluen, the one on which the book was based.
I did say 'based' as I'm sure someone will say "but he died in the final scene", the book was based on the journalists experiences over the entire war, the patrol he set out on was with this man in his boat.
I hope I haven't shattered any illusions with this link, well worth a look though

Celeon999
05-31-2006, 02:28 AM
Yes he didnt died like U-96 was not sunk.

This was only created to give the movie a more dramatical end.

The problem was that U-96 was really an exception. And that became a big problem for the movie makers.

It was among the very few boats that had enough luck to make it through the war and the movie would had displayed a totally wrong image of the entire fate of the u-boat fleet if they had shown the real story ending.

Just imagine : Hundreds of u-boats sunk and the entire crew killed.

And someone makes a movie about one of a handfull of u-boats that made it through the war and doesnt come up with a word what happened to all others.

The audience would get a wrong picture of the real fate the u-boat fleet beside U-96 suffered.

It would become a real Hollywood movie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

They pick the 10 Happy End and Hero stories out of the war stories box and leave the 1000 horror and gore stories in it.

That fills the cinemas but also fills the heads of the audience with a total distorted picture of what war is like.

JU88
05-31-2006, 03:28 AM
Das Boot 2:
A U-boat leaves for her maiden voyage out of Lorient in 1942, upon her exit though the bay of biscay she strikes a mine laid by a british submarine, sunk with all hands lost. -The End http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kaleun1961
05-31-2006, 09:41 AM
I think the saddest and most ironic death of a U-boat Kaleun was that of Heinz Wolfgang Luth. He survived to the last days of the war, only to be shot onshore by a nervous sentry when he hesitated to give the password.

Celeon999
05-31-2006, 09:58 AM
What about Kaleun M├╝tzelburg a friend of Teddy Suhren ?

He broke his neck while practicing tower diving from the conning tower of his boat in the famous "atlantic gap" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Imagine you are the number one of the boat and have to explain to D├┬Ânitz how your commander died ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Suhren warned him that this is dangerous but he would not listen to him !

Kaleun1961
05-31-2006, 10:12 AM
Never read of that one until now. I guess you could call that a training accident. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? You'd think they could have put a training tower ashore for such purposes, maybe put some padding on it so it wouldn't be so dangerous. Instead, we have a veteran doing such training in an operational area.

What I found so tragic/ironic about Luth's death was that he survived everything the enemy could throw at him, only to be killed by one of his own men. This sort of thing happened too many times to men from all sides of the war. There's a scene in "Band of Brothers" where an American officer, behind the lines and "out of danger" is shot by a nervous sentry. The stupidity of it! It reminds me of Patton, a great warrior who gets taken out by a careless driver.

Celeon999
05-31-2006, 10:43 AM
Well his explanation was :

"Its sometimes so darn hot inside the boat and the water of the atlantic is so cool and refreshing in the summer"


The entire crew was bathing but he was the only one who liked to jump from the tower. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


The small one on the left is Suhren the other is M├╝tzelburg


http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1464/pic00032dp.jpg

Coffee_N_Donitz
05-31-2006, 11:48 AM
Another nervous sentry accident was Stonewall Jackson, during the American Civil War.

Kaleun1961
05-31-2006, 03:46 PM
Celeon, it is just dawning on me what you originally meant. I thought he died while practicing diving INTO the conning tower, like a practice alarm. Now I realize you meant that he was diving FROM the tower into the water for a swim. Gives a totally different understanding to the situation.

hueywolf123
05-31-2006, 07:43 PM
A very expensive swim. I wonder what they wrote on the letter to his family?
As the Kaluen, you would have not credited him with doing something so stupid. Maybe he just wasn't watching, we all make mistakes but there's no come-back on that one

The_Silent_O
06-01-2006, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Coffee_N_Donitz:
Another nervous sentry accident was Stonewall Jackson, during the American Civil War. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is amazing how far medical care on the battlefield has come. If Gen Jackson was in the same situation today...he'd be back up on his horse (Stryker) in a week.

Instead...infection took his arm first, then his life in a week.

The_Silent_O
06-01-2006, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Celeon, it is just dawning on me what you originally meant. I thought he died while practicing diving INTO the conning tower, like a practice alarm. Now I realize you meant that he was diving FROM the tower into the water for a swim. Gives a totally different understanding to the situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know about this accident, Mutzelburg was just fooling around...Donitz ordered no diving from the conning towers after that (as if he had to make that an order)

I forget the boat now...but there was also a Kaleun that committed suicide (shot himself with his pistol) in the mid atlantic and the 1WO had to take over.

Rab09
06-03-2006, 05:02 AM
It was U-505 and the Kaleun was Oblt.z.S Peter Zschech. He shot himself on October 24th, 1943 at 7:54pm. Berlin time. In the control room and lingered more than 90 minutes before death overtook him at 9:29pm. The next morning he was sewn inside a hammock and put over the side. The officer who assumed command was 26yr. old Oblt.z.S. Paul Meyer at the time was the new First Watch Officer, after Thilo Bode left U-505. He was replaced on November 18, 1943 by Oblt.z.S.d.R Harald Lange.

Kaleun1961
06-03-2006, 02:08 PM
What prompted him to commit suicide? Had he shamed himself or failed somehow, or was it combat stress? I recall of at least one Kaleun who was killed in a suicidal attempt to ensure the scuttling of his boat. If I recall correctly, it was Fritz Julius Lemp, who was shot as he attempted to swim back to his boat after abandoning it and realizing it wasn't going to sink in time to prevent the British from boarding U-110. The British captured an intact Enigma machine and some current code books. But I'm reciting this from memory, so I may be mistaken. I'm sure one of you sharp folks will correct me if I am in error.

The_Silent_O
06-05-2006, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rab09:
It was U-505 and the Kaleun was Oblt.z.S Peter Zschech. He shot himself on October 24th, 1943 at 7:54pm. Berlin time. In the control room and lingered more than 90 minutes before death overtook him at 9:29pm. The next morning he was sewn inside a hammock and put over the side. The officer who assumed command was 26yr. old Oblt.z.S. Paul Meyer at the time was the new First Watch Officer, after Thilo Bode left U-505. He was replaced on November 18, 1943 by Oblt.z.S.d.R Harald Lange. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hah...I should have remembered it was U-505...a boat destined by more bad luck and shame as it would flauntenly be captured as a war trophy by the U.S. Navy. Now displayed at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.

I have no idea why he committed suicide, Clay Blair doesn't mention why in his book either. Sometimes you never know.

Rab09
06-05-2006, 02:55 PM
To quote Loewe: "As an officer up to that time, he might have been considered a good average. Without dough he was a capable seaman.. But command of a sub demands a strong constitution, both physically and psychologically, and Zschech had reached a point where he no longer possessed either. Add to that his bad luck and lack of success... so it came about that at the end of his moral and physical strength, in a situation that was in no way critical, he lost his nerve and killed himself. The main responsibility for this lies not with Zschech, but with the leadership who failed to take him out of combat and did not recognize his condition. Here was a man asked to give more than he had."
This was taken from the book "Hunt and Kill U-505 and the U-Boat war in the atlantic" Edited by Theodore P. Savas.. Aver good book on the life of U-505 and a very good read..

Kaleun1961
06-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Rab, thanks for the info.

Rab09
06-05-2006, 04:38 PM
Kaleun1961, you are welcome. After so many years reading the forums here and at IL-2, it's good to be able to give back, a bit of knowledge.
Salute Sir and good hunting.

J_Weaver
06-05-2006, 07:44 PM
Wow, that is interesting, thanks for posting Rab.

I don't think I've ever heard an eerier sound than that of being pinged. I can't imagine it being for real.

Rudeltaktik1963
06-07-2006, 05:16 AM
Another Kaleun who is said to have taken his own life, is different circumstances, was KorvettenKapitan Werner Henke.

He is said to have been shot attempting to escape in 1944, from Fort Hunt in Virginia. He simply walked up to the wire and stated to climb, and was shot when he continued to climb after being order to stop by the guards. It is believed that he choose this way out as he had been told he was to be tried as a war criminal.

http://uboat.net/men/henke.htm

Coffee_N_Donitz
06-13-2006, 02:59 PM
Heh, you forgot the middle step

Airlifted to another country 1,000 miles away, then treated....

back in the Napoleonic day limbs were often lopped off due to injury, not due to a lack of knowledge of treating wounds or limited resources, but because the musket ball traveled at such a slow velocity and was so soft that the energy of the impact was transfered to the offending bone (the one that got in the way) and the bone would just simply turn to pulp, nothing to fix or knit together.

Mind you... nothing like a good maggot for taking care of gangrene, as true today as it was back in 1812.


It is amazing how far medical care on the battlefield has come. If Gen Jackson was in the same situation today...he'd be back up on his horse (Stryker) in a week.

Instead...infection took his arm first, then his life in a week.[/QUOTE]

U301
06-13-2006, 05:57 PM
In a situation like that the crew must always come first. One must feel sorry for the crew after the death of too my mind a coward.
It is a very selfish act.
KUrtz

hueywolf123
06-13-2006, 08:49 PM
U301, Different people react to different situations in different ways. It was not just the Kaluens who did themselves in, there are reports of IWO's and of crew members on leave doing this also.
Without any of us not having been there, it is very hard to judge a man on such a decision. The decision to do this is never thought over for long periods by those who are suicidal.The Kaptain is the only person on board with a service pistol, this makes the job easier for him than anyone else.
Yes, we must also feel for the crew, who during a depth charging, would probably also like that as an option.
Lets be realistic, I'm not having a shot at you, but these guys in this service had among the highest loss of life in all theatres, and surely they must have known or felt that. After a couple of years of that, I'd be looking for another way out too, so would most of us here. Lets just be happy it wasn't us, and pray for those who were there