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Tvrdi
07-01-2005, 03:42 PM
if ur chased by your enemy in most of the planes all you need is making wild moves for insane stall...then fast recover and hes yours....

Tvrdi
07-01-2005, 03:42 PM
if ur chased by your enemy in most of the planes all you need is making wild moves for insane stall...then fast recover and hes yours....

PBNA-Boosher
07-01-2005, 05:07 PM
in real combat this would be suicide. 1 vs. 1 it may work, but you have more of a chance of killing yourself. Trust a person who flies for real. YOU NEVER want to stall your aircraft. It burns too much energy. What if, just after you got that 1 kill, another bandit comes screaming out of the sky and rakes you to pieces?

Not a smart move.

Tvrdi
07-02-2005, 03:00 AM
yes, but unfortunately, in this sim its very smart move after 4.01....

FritzGryphon
07-02-2005, 03:09 AM
I don't see how throwing away all your airspeed, then falling a few hundred meters, could possibly help your situation.

Not only that, spinning gives the enemy a nice, predicatable, broadside shot at your plane. Then another easy shot after you recover.

Lucius_Esox
07-02-2005, 03:53 AM
Depends on the quality of the enemy nearby ?

F0_Dark_P
07-02-2005, 04:03 AM
with my experiace of stalls, i say dont do it
but sure it might work if you fly with noobs and dont kill your self doing it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but i am with the other guys on that tactic, it is not worth it

73GIAP_Milan
07-02-2005, 04:09 AM
I bet he means that this kind of "stall fighting" only works on Air-Quake servers ??

I tried it once with good result and 2 times with very bad results then i stopped it..
It's not a good way to fight.

also not historical aswell..

ClnlSandersLite
07-02-2005, 04:42 AM
Well, IMO, if you've tried everything else to shake the guy and he just WON'T budge, it MAY be worth a shot. Anything's better than giving up... I think that you'll usually find better action to take though.

Freelancer-1
07-02-2005, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tvrdi:
if ur chased by your enemy in most of the planes all you need is making wild moves for insane stall...then fast recover and hes yours.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this does seem to be the tactic du jour.

On Greatergreen last night-Korea map- it was fairly raining spits. These guys were tumbling all over the place.

As soon as they saw some tracers they'd spin it and hope for an overshoot. Here's the thing. Quite often it works! You need to really manage your speed if you want to nail one of these guys.

Once you know what to expect, though, it's not as effective a defence. As people learn how to deal with this, you will see it used less and less. It's an inherently bad tactic as it robs you of your energy.

Like they say, fool me once...

Freelancer

F0_Dark_P
07-02-2005, 08:01 AM
how can you be sure they do it deliberately?

they mabee got stressed and pul to hard on the stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

kweassa
07-02-2005, 09:08 AM
Works only once.

Sacrificing unnecessary amounts of E to just pull off one overshoot is as dumb as it gets. Any good stick would rather execute a timed reversal in hopes to turn the situation and actually think of winning the fight, instead of merely futzing with the stick to cause a stall to evade one gunning pass.

willyvic
07-02-2005, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
how can you be sure they do it deliberately?

they mabee got stressed and pul to hard on the stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't kid yourself. The tactic is happening with increasing frequency. Rather easy to spot as stalling a wing and inducing an end over end are quiet different visually. Virtual pilots who employ this kind of strategy deprive themselves of, imho, learning to fly and fight their aircraft. They will miss out on the joy of besting an opponent and will, in all likelihood, become frustrated in the long run.

But as stated, it is only a matter of time till most vets will anticipate and decimate.

Tvrdi
07-02-2005, 10:38 AM
I think ppl will master deliberate stalling for making advantage situation..and in RL, in most cases, they crashed after goin into non-deliberate stall..or being ripped...

carguy_
07-02-2005, 10:45 AM
I see it happening quite often.Going into deliberate stall is a big loss of energy even if you recover quickly but it is a great getaway n00b move because a good pilot will not be willing to waste energy to go after a spinning plane.

In this game even if it is completely unrealistic,it is a desperate move nonetheless.

JG5_UnKle
07-02-2005, 10:52 AM
I've seen this for years. The real pain in the *** is when you collide with one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Don't try it in the P-39 though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Lucius_Esox
07-02-2005, 01:38 PM
A real desperation tactic, and a viable one on rare occasions. Do this against a good stick intent on your virtual life and you will virtually die http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-02-2005, 02:59 PM
The way I see it is this:

To use this as a tactic on your regular evasive tactic pallete, is just stumpid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It can be used only in pure desperation, but then again turn with blackout is far better solution IMO.(both manoeuvres required decent alt).

Unlike high speed "turn untill blackout" evasive manoeuver, stall manoeuver provides 0% chance of survivability against serious player.
Situations
1.Attacking plane is on your 6 and approx. same speed -- if you stall, he will go up vertically above you and down on you doing "hammerhead". There is no thing you can do against him.
2.Attacking plane is BnZing you, you "stall" -- he is pulling up for another pass untill he succeed.
3.If you "stall" too early, when attacking plane is on greater distance, you will get "Swiss cheese" look.

That are basically all situations possible with "stall" manoeuvre.

The only way that "stall" manoeuvre can be succesfull is if player in attacking plane is careless or newbie.
I have witnessed guys doing "stall" when I got on their six, I put few bullets in their planes and they regularly managed to escape initially, but few seconds later after hammerhead they were toasted. 1-2 times they get out because of other fighters showing up in combat, but they were nowhere near to threat me.

kweassa
07-02-2005, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think ppl will master deliberate stalling for making advantage situation..and in RL, in most cases, they crashed after goin into non-deliberate stall..or being ripped... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a seriously exaggerated allegation. Why would anyone even bother teaching stall recovery if that were the case?

Accidents did happen. Some planes did have notoriously bad stall characteristics. And when normal airflow is terminated, the unbelievable will happen occasionally.

But that doesn't mean that every stall is lethal. Stalls are inherently dangerous, when left to develop into harsh spins. However with a quick recovery the plane will tend to correct itself quite easily.


For all its worth, this belief circulating among the boards that all stalls should be nauseaously serios and super difficult to pull out, and no plane would just correct itself with simple stall recovery methods... is a big sham. It's they typical, misinformed, "if it's realistic, then it should be super hard" way of thinking that plagues sim gamers.

Sorry if it sounded a bit harsh, but this criticism wasn't directed at you personally.

VW-IceFire
07-02-2005, 04:56 PM
Stalling just makes you an easier target for the guy covering the first guys tail.

Or should be.

MEGILE
07-02-2005, 05:01 PM
I tried it in the 109, but she kind of just.. floated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

LStarosta
07-02-2005, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
in real combat this would be suicide. 1 vs. 1 it may work, but you have more of a chance of killing yourself. Trust a person who flies for real. YOU NEVER want to stall your aircraft. It burns too much energy. What if, just after you got that 1 kill, another bandit comes screaming out of the sky and rakes you to pieces?

Not a smart move. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to stall my aircraft in real life. Sorry, Boosher, you are wrong. Stalling is fun. Admit it. ADMIT IT DAMMIT.

You prolly do it all the time.


It's fun doing unauthorized maneuvers in totally underpowered and undermaintained aircraft. Nate is an expert at low altitude acrobatics in Cessna 172's. People are so jealous of his skills, they threaten to report him to the FAA. What a pity.

JG7_Rall
07-02-2005, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
in real combat this would be suicide. 1 vs. 1 it may work, but you have more of a chance of killing yourself. Trust a person who flies for real. YOU NEVER want to stall your aircraft. It burns too much energy. What if, just after you got that 1 kill, another bandit comes screaming out of the sky and rakes you to pieces?

Not a smart move. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to stall my aircraft in real life. Sorry, Boosher, you are wrong. Stalling is fun. Admit it. ADMIT IT DAMMIT.

You prolly do it all the time.


It's fun doing unauthorized maneuvers in totally underpowered and undermaintained aircraft. Nate is an expert at low altitude acrobatics in Cessna 172's. People are so jealous of his skills, they threaten to report him to the FAA. What a pity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SECRET skills...SECRET!

LStarosta
07-02-2005, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
in real combat this would be suicide. 1 vs. 1 it may work, but you have more of a chance of killing yourself. Trust a person who flies for real. YOU NEVER want to stall your aircraft. It burns too much energy. What if, just after you got that 1 kill, another bandit comes screaming out of the sky and rakes you to pieces?

Not a smart move. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to stall my aircraft in real life. Sorry, Boosher, you are wrong. Stalling is fun. Admit it. ADMIT IT DAMMIT.

You prolly do it all the time.


It's fun doing unauthorized maneuvers in totally underpowered and undermaintained aircraft. Nate is an expert at low altitude acrobatics in Cessna 172's. People are so jealous of his skills, they threaten to report him to the FAA. What a pity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SECRET skills...SECRET! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SH1T, sorry man!

Xiolablu3
07-03-2005, 01:13 AM
This would be stupid in real war. Its a 50/50 chance that u dont get shot up as he closes fast on you,

THEN he overshoots you and u may get a snap shot in if u can recover quickly but as he still has his speed he will be gone in a second, then he will climb into the air, dive back down on you and finish you off, slowly this time.

You forgot one crycial line, stalling to kill works if your adversery is pretty clueless or you are very lucky.

Trust me I have tried the 'hit the brakes and he'll fly right by' many times, and half the time he just presses his guns and has a massive target he cant miss in his crosshairs, however wildly you manouvre.

JG5_UnKle
07-03-2005, 01:24 AM
Yes it would be stupid in real life, but that isn't what Tvirdi is really getting at http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Basically Tvirdi is predicting that with the relaxed stall model in 4.01m we will see more of this behaviour.

I have seen a lot of it already, for years in fact. Normally Yaks going into a spinning cartwheel right in front of you. The only annoying thing is that it makes collisions all the more probable.

The Fw-190 "Fish-Flop" is another variant on the same thing, but faster.

Tvrdi
07-03-2005, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
Yes it would be stupid in real life, but that isn't what Tvirdi is really getting at http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Basically Tvirdi is predicting that with the relaxed stall model in 4.01m we will see more of this behaviour.

I have seen a lot of it already, for years in fact. Normally Yaks going into a spinning cartwheel right in front of you. The only annoying thing is that it makes collisions all the more probable.

The Fw-190 "Fish-Flop" is another variant on the same thing, but faster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unkle mate your right....thats what i wanted to say....and another thing...in CW we have now ppl goin into deliberate insane/wild stall at low level just to evade the attack and recover fast..this is really.....you know..

LStarosta
07-03-2005, 09:39 AM
I actually use stall tactics quite often in LOMAC, if the tactical situation allows for it. For example, if I have a more maneuverable lone bandit on my 6 o clock, I switch radar to flood mode, arm my Sparrows (I guess Sidewinders would do okay, too) I hit the breaks, leave some of my speed for maneuvering, and as the enemy aircraft shoots past, I can usually maneuver my aircraft enough to either get him in my flood cone or get a lock with a sidewinder, and usually that works extremely well. Sidewinders especially will love this because they excel at rear aspect attacks for obvious reasons.

JamesBlonde888
07-03-2005, 10:16 AM
Just like in 'TopGun' eh? No offence. I see the wisdom in your tactics there. I do not see the wisdom in attempting this in an aircraft without Sidewiders and radar however.

Folly.

Hydra444
07-03-2005, 10:55 AM
this is why i make it a point to fly with a wingman.with a wingman,if the bloke in front of u pulls some whack-a$$ stall trick,ur wingman is still far enough behind u that he can give the jerk a nice wallop for his troubles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LStarosta
07-03-2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Just like in 'TopGun' eh? No offence. I see the wisdom in your tactics there. I do not see the wisdom in attempting this in an aircraft without Sidewiders and radar however.

Folly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. In LOMAC, I use this as a last ditch effort and I try not to use it when I need to keep my E up immediately after the maneuver. Granted, these jets accelerate a whole lot quicker, you still don't want to pull this if you are going to make yourself even more vulnerable afterwards.

In IL2 I see this as a last ditch tactic as well, though a lot more desperate, and it usually doesnt, (or shouldn't) end with a reversal.

AH_Gonzo
07-03-2005, 12:16 PM
The stall and spin has been used since the beginning of aerial warfare as a last ditch method to get away from a pursuer. It might be dangerous and if control is lost you€re toast, but if you€re desperate enough to think about trying it, there isn€t much hope anyway.

Using this kind of maneuver in a furball, lots of aircraft al over the place, just makes you an easier target for some one else, but in a 1v1 fight with a low energy state and altitude to lose, it can momentarily shake a guy off your 6. How he maneuvers after that and how well you can regain energy will decide the fight after that point.

If you have an aircraft with better acceleration and slow speed turning ability, he€s yours. If he uses the vertical and maintains E, he€s back on your six.

NOTE: One of the many maneuvers demonstrated by modern fighters is slow speed, high Alpha (AofA), and in some case beyond stall maneuvers. The F-18 (High Alpha flight), MiG-29 Tialslide with auto recovery), and the Su-27 family (Cobra) are cases in point.

JG27_Stacko
07-03-2005, 10:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tvrdi:
if ur chased by your enemy in most of the planes all you need is making wild moves for insane stall...then fast recover and hes yours.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be flying against noobs. I have tried this sometimes and it will work, but only against the noobs who overshoot. EG the spitfire is one of the easiest planes to force an overshoot on, but by doing what you are suggesting, gives any half decent pilot a few seconds of fire time. For any decent pilots like Abuh or PFS_Blackbird this is a few seconds more than they need. They will paste you and you will of deserved it. Still I have tried it successfully against some of my lesser experienced opponents. But when I make the mistake of trying it against guys who are good - I pay for it, usaully with a wing or a pilot kill.

darkhorizon11
07-04-2005, 12:13 AM
I think this post should only be restricted to real life pilots since FB aircraft stalls are totally unrealistic.

IRL you would want to SPIN not STALL. A stall means you've exceeded the critical angle of attack. The wings aren't creating enough lift so your probably descending (if its a power off stall) and slowing down making you an easy vulnerable target.

Spins aka auto-rotations are much wilder since the aircraft is spinning about an axis which is probably some where in front of the aircraft making them harder to track for shooting. At the entry phase of a spin the jerk is ussually pretty wild and sudden also.

Mind you spins and stalls differ very much per aircraft so IRL it would depend exactly what you were flying...

FB is just a computer dream land in this category...

darkhorizon11
07-04-2005, 12:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
in real combat this would be suicide. 1 vs. 1 it may work, but you have more of a chance of killing yourself. Trust a person who flies for real. YOU NEVER want to stall your aircraft. It burns too much energy. What if, just after you got that 1 kill, another bandit comes screaming out of the sky and rakes you to pieces?

Not a smart move. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to stall my aircraft in real life. Sorry, Boosher, you are wrong. Stalling is fun. Admit it. ADMIT IT DAMMIT.

You prolly do it all the time.


It's fun doing unauthorized maneuvers in totally underpowered and undermaintained aircraft. Nate is an expert at low altitude acrobatics in Cessna 172's. People are so jealous of his skills, they threaten to report him to the FAA. What a pity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spins are better if your plane can take it. In fact neither maneuver is inherently dangerous unless your too low to the ground. The only exception being accelerated stalls but thats a whole other animal entirely.