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terriblysilly
09-15-2007, 04:27 AM
Hello! I have read mention that one can use elevator trim to make a plane accomplish tight turns that otherwise it would not be capable of.

Which planes is this good for? Do you have a guide on this I can read? Thank you!!!

terriblysilly
09-15-2007, 04:27 AM
Hello! I have read mention that one can use elevator trim to make a plane accomplish tight turns that otherwise it would not be capable of.

Which planes is this good for? Do you have a guide on this I can read? Thank you!!!

JG53Frankyboy
09-15-2007, 04:35 AM
try it in a 109 at higher speeds, there will you see the benefit (as one of the best examples)

gdfo
09-15-2007, 04:52 AM
Yes but now it is toned down some from earlier patches. That earlier trim in many of the luft planes resulted in the bat-man manuevers. LOL

JG53Frankyboy
09-15-2007, 05:59 AM
you could do those so called "Bat turns" in almost every plane............ because in those times the trim reacted directly.
nowadays there is a timedelay in the trim reaction.

anyway , the first thing i do in almost every plane (Ki-84 and P-51 as exceptions, these i fly always in heavy nose trimm)) is when entering combat from the march setting is to neutral my elevator trimm.

DKoor
09-15-2007, 07:14 AM
Franky said well........

Trim works for bat turns but not really for sustain.....but who cares for sustain anyway.

P-38 is also a monster if trim is deployed correctly, its quite fearful in combination with "airbrake".

terriblysilly
09-15-2007, 08:29 AM
I do not understand yet how to use it. Do you know of guides?
Also, is there a guide to tell me how to use "prop pitch" for good results? Thank you!

SeaFireLIV
09-15-2007, 09:35 AM
Trim takes skill to use in combat now that it is delayed. A good thing too as fighting and flying feels a lot more realistic.

knightflyte
09-16-2007, 08:22 AM
Here's a great guide for engine management, terriblysilly.

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_cem.htm

tagTaken2
09-16-2007, 08:44 AM
If you haven't already, map a joystick axis- such as throttle- to elevator trim, and see what a difference it makes.

(I don't fly online, so don't judge me for this.)

super71957
09-16-2007, 09:09 AM
You may want to study using combat flaps to do some very tight turns.
At or a second before turn entry you can pop down combat flaps for a second or two to help tighten up your turn radiius.
Be aware though that it is at the cost of speed.
Works great if your trying to shake an e/a of your six and just otherwise can"t.
I fly the Corsair alot and against the nimble Zero"s and such, I can stay out of trouble more often than not.
Just remember only a second or two , don"t drop them and leave them there,or forget there down.
Try it in some practice QMB"s,works great. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gdfo
09-16-2007, 03:03 PM
get one of 2 utilities.

With them you can map trim to controls on your j stick.

IL-sticks or Il joycontrol

buzzsaw1939
09-18-2007, 11:30 AM
gdfo.. Could you please elaborate on those utilities, I have a botton mapped to my Cougar stick, but it still lags, totaly unrealistic, theres enough things in game that aren't accurate, but that one drives me nuts!

gdfo
09-19-2007, 04:03 AM
Either of the 2 utilities will open a menu that can and will access the part of the game that maps the sensitivites of the controls.

None of them allows you to reasign key board commands to your stick. You have to do that in game.

In prior versions of IL-2 the trim tab commands worked instantly just like a real plane. In our current version a delay has been added due to some players complaining about a couple of planes ( I guess they performed too well)

I think this added delay is exagerated depending on the type of stick you use and the power of your pc.

buzzsaw1939
09-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Thanks... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-19-2007, 12:58 PM
Using trim-on-a-slider in combat is an exploit...period.

RBJ said so.

Scen
09-19-2007, 06:06 PM
Aren't trims on sliders in real life? Start cranking that wheel and its essentially trim on a slider...

LEXX_Luthor
09-19-2007, 06:42 PM
No. Trim mapped to mousewheel is the more realistic method.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-20-2007, 07:06 AM
but in real life they required you to take your hands off the throttle or stick to manipulate. Not a simple finger-push manipulation.

But hey, it doesn't matter to me. I've flown against enough slider-trim-bat-turn-109's. I've even mapped it and flown it myself to better understand my enemy's capabilities. These days, it's not that big a deal, though there's still a slight advantage to be had by doing so.


TB

buzzsaw1939
09-20-2007, 01:31 PM
Thunderbolt...I understand your perspective! But in real life, if we had to chase our trim through half the mission, there would have been no air combat.

In real life, trim is as important as stick and throttle, you are constantly changing it with speed and attitude, a real pilot spends more time with his hand on the trim, than on the throttle, I don't care if it's a wheel, knob or button.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

UgoRipley
09-21-2007, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
gdfo.. Could you please elaborate on those utilities, I have a botton mapped to my Cougar stick, but it still lags, totaly unrealistic, theres enough things in game that aren't accurate, but that one drives me nuts! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Buzzsaw, if you have the Cougar, like me, and if you have mapped trim function on a button with the /A "slash modifier" in your Foxy file, I think there's no better way to achieve its control. I'm mostly thinking of elevator trim here.
Then you would want to create a macro (in Foxy) to neutralize trim, on whichever axis you want, even all 3 of them simultaneously, and map it to another button.
If Oleg has put a delay in the trim reaction, you'll always have it, be it on the mouse wheel, on a slider, or wherever else you want.
I always and constantly trim when I'm cruising, sometimes when I'm fighting.

I'm at work now, when I go home I'll post my snip of Foxy code if you still need, but it's really nothing complex.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-21-2007, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Thunderbolt...I understand your perspective! But in real life, if we had to chase our trim through half the mission, there would have been no air combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, not really, trim was something that was applied and adjusted mostly for cruise. Rarely (if ever) was it used DURING a fight. They just dealt with their settings when the **** hit the fan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
In real life, trim is as important as stick and throttle, you are constantly changing it with speed and attitude, a real pilot spends more time with his hand on the trim, than on the throttle, I don't care if it's a wheel, knob or button.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


In real life...I AM a pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Recreationally though. Not any jets, or fighters, but plenty of hours in 4-seat Cessnas with some Soaring planes, and taildraggers thrown in. I adjust my trim...occassionally.

Just saying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
09-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Ok!.. I'm not trying to make you look dumb, honest!..but you should know what I'm talking about, and yes they did use trim in fights, many accounts of arms being tired when they got back, just for that reason!

Being a real pilot, I'm puzzed that you would say "occassionally".

terriblysilly
09-21-2007, 12:43 PM
Why would they change it constantly?

When I play IL2, I never change it...

Is this why I die always on HyperLobby? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

berg417448
09-21-2007, 12:56 PM
Some pilots felt the need to trim constantly:

"Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

buzzsaw1939
09-21-2007, 02:36 PM
Good explanation berg!... Thats been my experience also, a friend of mine, back in the 70's was 51 driver, on escort missions into Germany, things he told me, backs up every thing your saying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

UgoRipley
09-21-2007, 05:59 PM
Here you go, as I said there's really nothing complex to learn here.
Just keep button depressed for a second or so to see a change in pitch, then fine-adjust with few taps.


TMM Foxy file

trim_elevator_up = USB (DE0 D51 U51 UE0) rem CTL DARROW
trim_elevator_down = USB (DE0 D52 U52 UE0) rem CTL UARROW



TMJ Foxy file

BTN H2U /I
/O /A trim_elevator_down
BTN H2R /I
/O
BTN H2D /I
/O /A trim_elevator_up
BTN H2L /I
/O

Bikewer
09-21-2007, 07:18 PM
Since I use TrackIR, I have my trim controls mapped to the joystick hatswitch. Seems to work very well, single "jabs" at the button for slight corrections, or just hold it for big ones.

I remember playing with this some number of patches ago, it was easy to pull a 109 out of "impossible" dives with heavy use of the trim control.

buzzsaw1939
09-21-2007, 08:07 PM
Thanks UgoRipley..(what a handle) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks for your replys.

I never did get a chance to figure out my Foxy, I lost it when I cleaned my system, sense I have to clean it often, I never reinstalled it! been trying to build a profile for the TIR.

I have the trim button on my stick, and it works, it's just that lagg that drives me nuts,(not realistic) are you saying that the Foxy can correct that? I was under the impression that theres nothing you can do about it! maybe I'm misunderstanding somthing here!

Bikewer.. When you say hold it, are you talking about because of the lagg? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Thanks guys for trying to help.

UgoRipley
09-22-2007, 05:05 PM
No, I'm not saying that Foxy can correct that delay. Not at all.
If the delay is a programmed variable into the code, and it's not a value you can change in a "conf.ini" file, for example, you can't do anything about it. And I'm quite sure 200% it is programmed into the game, I never heard of it being editable.


But.....WHAT did I read ????????? Are you NOT using Foxy ??????????? You didn't even reinstall it ????? Noooo it can't be true ! ;-)
James Hallows will not be happy to hear it !!
Your Cougar becomes such a powerful "toy" with that fine piece of software, for me it's a MUST ! Just start with any IL2 profile (you can find them on CougarWorld)
All that programming can be a bit daunting in the beginning, I admit it, but folk at CougarWorld are so kind, you can ask whatever you want and they always come up with a smart solution. And in that forum there's so much info and sooooo many threads that you'll always find what you need.

buzzsaw1939
09-22-2007, 07:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif... Yah, it dose sound kinda lame, dosen't it? I'm getting kinda old and slow, if I try to do to many things at once, nothing gets done, any Ideas why I lost it when I unpluged my controls? I'm thinking it's because I didn't put it back in the same USB, but I would think that whouldn't matter, I'm just glad I didn't have it all programed, or I'd really be ripped, thats why I haven't botherd to reinstall yet.

UgoRipley
09-23-2007, 02:48 AM
I'm not sure I understand when you say "I lost it".
What did you loose, Cougar or Foxy ?

Anyway, programming the Cougar it's a matter of:
1) Installing Foxy
2) Choosing a user-made profile to start with
3) Matching your in-game controls with the ones used in the profile (or viceversa)
4) Downloading it into Cougar

Then you're done.
You don't need to do it everytime if you only (or mostly) play 1946.
Maybe you don't even need Foxy, because IIRC you can download profiles to Cougar directly from CCP.
.....Errrrr......Do you have CCP (Cougar Control Panel) installed, don't you ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To go back to your original problem, THE TRIM, I bet you are not satisfied with it because you don't take advantage of Foxy's programming. Cougar without Foxy (and its CCP) is like a Ferrari with bicycle wheels.

Those lines of Foxy code I posted before include the /A "slash modifier". It means to "autorepeat" the command associated to a specific button AS LONG AS that button is pressed.
I think that in the way you use your Cougar (just as a generic windows joystick) everytime you press your "trim" button you only get ONE single trim impulse. With "my" solution you get a fast (as fast as possible) stream of trim impulses with ONE button press. In fact I never thought about all this "delay problem" that disturbs you so much.

For example, I use the same /A slash modifier on another button for those airplanes that have manual gear. I just keep the button pressed until I read "Gear up/down". Simple!
And the /A "slash modifier" is just one of those available.

Anyway, head on to CougarWorld before any change you might decide.
Cougar is indeed a delicate piece of hardware and there are some issues one must know and consider before fiddling with it (like throttle disconnection when upgrading firmware).

Hope that helps you.

BTW, my handle comes from my name (Ugo) and the nickname (obviously Ripley) I received years ago from my family when I had to fight with cancer... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

buzzsaw1939
09-23-2007, 12:04 PM
Ugo....First, I need you to know, that wasn't a poke at your name, I like it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I try to look at life with a sense of humor, but it doesn't always show in writeing, (thank God for smileys)

As far as my probs with the cougar, I've got it working with all buttons keyed to my likeing, learning computers is a slow process for me, started after retirement.

Before I could figure out the foxy program, which was like Latin to me, I cleaned my computer, and when I hooked everything back up windows says my cougar controls aren't working, and would you like windows to find it, I think thats where they tell you to reinstall your disk, my controls are working but my foxy seems to be half missing, I just don't want to go through this every time I clean my comp, hope that makes more sense.

As for the trim, when I hold down the trim button, it does move the trim, it just takes to long before it moves, I think thats the lagg every one is talking about, they put that in intentionaly to stop cheating or something, makeing something unrealistic is not a fix in my world!

if what your saying about foxy will even speed it up a little, then I need to reinstall it and try to save my settings to a disk of something, what do you think?

Crash_Moses
09-23-2007, 07:07 PM
Durn retired bush pilots...think they know everything! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Y'know...there's something I noticed about that annoying trim lag. There's absolutely no lag when using UDPSpeed. What I mean is, when I adjust trim the UDPSpeed monitor moves instantly (with my optomized gauges of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) but the ingame climb indicator still lags behind.

By using the UDPSpeed monitor I get a much better sense of where the trim is set which tells me the devicelink data is more accurate.

So, my question is...does the trim effect actually lag or just it's representation on the ingame gauges?

buzzsaw1939
09-23-2007, 07:32 PM
MMMM...I guessing it's actual lagg, sense I've never checked my gauges while trying to get that &*%#$ nose down! ...now that I think of it, thats the way I used to fly too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-23-2007, 11:14 PM
terriblysilly:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why would they change it constantly?

When I play IL2, I never change it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct. The "lite sim" flight models don't really require trimming, so you can "get away" without trimming in most combat flight The Sims.

Analyze Bud Anderson's story, and you see that in combat, airspeed and angle of attack are constantly changing, which means more stick forces are required to maintain any new angle of attack, so Bud constantly trims. That's how I look at it. Bud didn't use the trim to make "bat turns" as some Online players accuse Bud of having done 60 years ago, but to ease stick forces during flight, which may have removed limitations to turning based on stick forces. Or something like that. He was a fine pilot though in a plane that seemed to have good trim controls. If you play, say, the I-16 which has no trim at all, you can see that you can "get away" without using it if needed. I doubt any sim really models aircraft trim. StrikeFighters has no trim modelling at all. FB/PF and StrikeFighters are "lite sims" as far as flight modelling goes out of box.

UgoRipley
09-24-2007, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ugo....First, I need you to know, that wasn't a poke at your name........
.............
if what your saying about foxy will even speed it up a little, then I need to reinstall it and try to save my settings to a disk of something, what do you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No problems at all with my nickname http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I never used the Cougar without its dedicated software - CCP and Foxy - so I don't know if without it, Windows kind of "struggles" a bit more and induces more lag than intended. &gt;Maybe&lt; that could be the case, but I don't know.

You could also create (or copy and paste) a simple Foxy profile, just to program ONE single button (for trim tests purposes), and let all the other buttons behave as they do now.
But for any specific question about your Cougar, try to post in the CougarWorld forums.

I'm at work now and I must be concise...sorry.
Bye

gdfo
09-24-2007, 03:56 AM
If using trim on a joy controller is an exploit then using trk IR is a cheat. Trim is a mappable part of the controls in the game. Joysticks are made with multiple mappable controls for a reason.

If the use of trim and how it is controled in the game is exagerated then the Flight models are incorrect.
Oleg should take the trim delay out.

buzzsaw1939
09-24-2007, 05:51 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.... Agree! But somehow I don't think that will ever happen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

bolox00
09-24-2007, 11:38 AM
devicelink does give some interesting readings compared to ingame- to me it seems devicelink reads the 'actual' figure whereas the position of say elev trim is limited by a 'rate of change' function. this seems to apply to different 'functions' also- the vsi being particularly noticeable.

luft single engine planes also have a degree of fixed right rudder trim applied according to devicelink.

thats how it appears to me anyway

Tator_Totts
09-24-2007, 09:04 PM
I gather in real life trimming was a must to reduce the fatigue factor so in combat they would have more strength to turn. We in sims do not have fatigue factor.

LEXX_Luthor
09-24-2007, 10:13 PM
Tators:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I gather in real life trimming was a must to reduce the fatigue factor so in combat they would have more strength to turn. We in sims do not have fatigue factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. In our "lite sim," trim is best use for easing the job of working the sensitive game controller joystick while in cruising or setting up stable climbs and descents and so allow the ideal hands off joystick flying condition -- my flying instructor liked to demonstrate flying the Cessna with trim alone with no hands on the wheel. Correct fast working trim response is crucial for finding the correct trim setting. Recall that many aircraft had no trim (I-16) and Bf-109 had no rudder trim. In the game, players flying such aircraft have difficulty maintaining stick pressure when flying at speeds above and below the cruising speed. The last I played this sim, the I-16 in game is trimmed by Oleg for level flight at cruise speed, as I suspect the real thing was, like the Bf-109 rudder trim tab was set for trimmed cruising speed (I suppose, 109 experten may know better). Flying I-16 and maintaining proper stick positioning in, for example, level flight requires constant physical attention to the sensitive joystick when flying faster or slower than the cruise speed. This would be relieved with trim controls like later aircraft had.

LEXX_Luthor
09-24-2007, 10:24 PM
When I used to play the I-16, I'd select a throttle setting that would achieve a speed that would allow hands off joystick flying. That would be the cruise speed, at least in game. I "forgot" this speed, but the throttle setting was maybe 70 to 80 percent -- if I recall. Its been almost 2 weeks(tm)...um...2 years since I've played The FB.

polak5
09-24-2007, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Using trim-on-a-slider in combat is an exploit...period.

RBJ said so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
I use it for cruise only or if Im coming in for a dive and my speed will be changing....

But to use it for every turn in a dogfight? Come on guys... not that it matters, but you get no respect from me. Just my $.02

Sometimes I wish I recorded every dogfight on fraps just for a laugh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 12:46 AM
Right on LEXX... couldn't have said it better myself! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Here"s my problem in a nut shell!

With my Cougar, the springs are so stiff, that if you don't get it level by the time your in a dog fight, you might as well hit escape and start over, you will be bobbing up and down, scattering your shots all over the sky like that goofy AI rear gunner in Crashes SBD, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Once it's stabalized, it's not that big a deal in a sim, with my old 20$ Saitek, I didn't have to touch it at all, and I never missed.

I like the realism of the heavy stick in a fighter, but that trim lagg bugs the sheat out of me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

personaly I belive a lot of the complaints about defferent planes being unstable in here, isn't the plane model it's self, it's that stupid lagg! and no! I'm not going to use my old stick! I love all the buttons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

UgoRipley
09-25-2007, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
.........With my Cougar, the springs are so stiff, that if you don't get it level by the time your in a dog fight, you might as well hit escape and start over, you will be bobbing up and down, scattering your shots all over the sky........ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This bobbing up and down suggests me you could have some calibration problems...

Ok, it's hard to accept http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you don't use Foxy, but do you have at least CCP installed ?? Did you calibrate the Cougar through CCP and &gt;not&lt; through Windows control panel ?? Did you try to configure the "curve settings" of your axis (Y axis, for that matter) ????

LEXX_Luthor
09-25-2007, 08:55 AM
A Cougar? Aren't those rather touchy, especially with use?

Actually, I don't think the artificial trim lagg is as bad as it used to be. 4.0 New FM brought a more responsive trim -- the more advanced pre-BoB FM required functional trim controls, or so I figured when I tried it...for the first time in FB, I actually found myself using trim to ease attention paid to the joystick -- it was finally working. Or has Oleg crippled his flight models again by slowing down trim since 4.02 or 4.03? I've not flown this sim in maybe 1.5 years.

UgoRipley
09-25-2007, 11:53 AM
I tell you this, before stumbling upon this thread I never noticed the existence of a trim lag.
Even if I own the whole series from "IL-2 Sturmovik" on, I don't remember how it was modelled in those days, but now, with 1946, for me there is NO trim lag at all.

That's the reason why I'm focusing my replies more on a configuration problem (regarding Buzzsaw's Cougar) rather than anywhere else.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-25-2007, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!.. I'm not trying to make you look dumb, honest!..but you should know what I'm talking about, and yes they did use trim in fights, many accounts of arms being tired when they got back, just for that reason!

Being a real pilot, I'm puzzed that you would say "occassionally". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lmao! Maybe I should have said that I DO use it "consistently" but still not constantly. But I'm also not constantly changing AOA or airspeed while simply cruising around in fun-rides.

Also,...you can't make me look any dumber than I do myself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 01:27 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif... Belive me, Thunderbolt, I've read many of your post, and you don't look dumb!

I just can't help compareing this sim to reality, it's all I know.

Ugo... I'm thinking that maybe you've been flying the sims so long, you just don't notice it, try this in 46.

set up a QM with a p-51D, soon as it starts, go to 75 or 80% power and don't touch the stick, when it climbs to about 30 or 40 degrees above the horizon, now trim the nose down without moveing the stick, it takes almost 2 seconds before it moves, it should be instantaneous, even with a stick without heavy springs.

Emagine your going to shoot a rabbit with a rifle, and theres a spring under the barrel pushing up, and you have to pull down to get a bead, you will get a slight bobbing affect, it makes your aim unstable, the stronger your control springs, the worse it will be.

by ccp, if you meen the sliders in the input in game, I havent messed with them, as I don't have a problem with the default settings, once I get the plane stabalized in level flight, I don't have to mess with it again till I'm in a high speed dive, and thats no time to be fighting with the lagg in the trim.

Lexx.. Touchy is a good word for it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-25-2007, 01:43 PM
UgoRipley:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't remember how it was modelled in those days, but now, with 1946, for me there is NO trim lag at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can believe it. Before FB 4.0, nobody used trim for its true purpose. I didn't. There was almost none it was so slow and frustrating to use (no slider). The old flight models from FB 1.0 were so lax that trim was not really needed anyways to ease flying with the joystick...and I never tried it with a slider like Bud Anderson, I, and other Offline players have been accused of hehehee. If you were not here at the time of 4.0 New FM, I'll describe the spectacle. We had multiple threads by "experienced" long time Online players/board member asking what aircraft trim is for, and why they now have to learn it. They never had to use trim before 4.0 even if it would have worked.

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 01:51 PM
Makes sense to me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

UgoRipley
09-25-2007, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ugo... I'm thinking that maybe you've been flying the sims so long, you just don't notice it, try this in 46.

set up a QM with a p-51D, soon as it starts, go to 75 or 80% power and don't touch the stick, when it climbs to about 30 or 40 degrees above the horizon, now trim the nose down without moveing the stick, it takes almost 2 seconds before it moves, it should be instantaneous, even with a stick without heavy springs.

....

by ccp, if you meen the sliders in the input in game, I havent messed with them, as I don't have a problem with the default settings, once I get the plane stabalized in level flight, I don't have to mess with it again till I'm in a high speed dive, and thats no time to be fighting with the lagg in the trim.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only flew 1946 in the last months, and I uninstalled all the previous versions (FB, PF...).

I don't have much experience with the P51s, I'll try what you suggest.
But I DO have it with BF109s and trim action is instantaneous in there.

Let's understand each other well on what this "instantaneous" means:
In my Foxy example I posted earlier in the thread, my trim command "autorepeats" itself as long as I keep it pressed, as if I was continously pressing and releasing, pressing and releasing, 10, 20 times, the trim button (as fast as only computers can do).
In this way I really dont'see and don't feel any "lag". Believe me, that's the way to go (with the Cougar).
On the other hand, without using Foxy and Cougar programmability (sorry, Foxy again!) I guess you have to phisically push it those many times, and maybe you are just expecting too much reaction from ONE single trim press. Maybe it's you who is inducing some of the lag, too. See what I mean ?

Let's say I take off, level the airplane at 500 mt. high, pushing the stick forward, so I start accelerating. I trim the nose a bit down, keeping the trim button pushed, for, say, a second or so: it is about 8-10 trim impulse-burst and the nose goes down smoothly and instantly. I release stick pressure, I accelerate and more speed generates more lift. I check the nose attitude, if I am not trimmed well enough, more lift will still push my nose up (or down, if I exaggerated), so I quickly tap the trim button in order to get very few impulses this time. When I reach top level speed I'll be perfectly trimmed.
In that way trimming becomes a nearly "constant" thing to do, to adapt it at your current speed at level flight, alway looking for those extra kph you can squeeze out of it. During combat I generally don't have the time of trimming so finely, as things happen too quickly, but I still try.

Sorry for being so longwinded, but I like to share my experiences. I'm just trying to be helpful, don't misunderstand me.

Just an idea: have you tried to map (in the Control section of the game) the trim function to one of the wheels of the Cougar trottle ("ANT ELEV" or "MAN RNG/UNCAGE") ?? Maybe it's less laggy, who knows.

Regarding CCP, your question shows you don't know what it is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
It's the "Cougar Control Panel" application, and lets you calibrate it, manage the curve response for each axis individually, set deadzones if you need them, save everything as a default, and whatnot !

Its icon looks like this

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb1/UgoRipley/Forum/CCPandFoxy.jpg

I'm sure it came with the original CD, but on this page (http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/updates.php) at CougarWorld you'll find the latest XP release, called 3.HCO.2004. In their forums there are also many threads regarding Vista CCP versions, should you have it.

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 04:12 PM
Ah Ha!... Now I think were getting somewhere!

I've never looked at that Cougar control panel, is it in the program files?

I can't use my Ant elevation knob, as it doesn't work right, I saw a thread on that some time ago, it seems to be a common problem.

Thanks for your help, I'll go check it out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Ok... It is on my desk top, I thought that icon was the foxy program, it says the device is in error, and thats what I lost when I cleaned my computer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I'll have to reinstall it, and just hope I don't lose it again!

UgoRipley
09-25-2007, 06:07 PM
Before you rush doing anything with the CCP, please pay attention to the issues mentioned on Cougarworld.

First and foremost, if you do something called "flashing the firmware" (which is the same as if you'd run the "hotasupdate.exe" file in your HOTAS folder) first DISCONNECT the cable of your throttle from the joystick base !!!!!!!!!!!
If you're not familiar with it, you risk ruining the throttle potentiometer (I did !).

Maybe you don't need to reinstall CCP, maybe just a "restart device" command could do good (you find it in the CCP).

buzzsaw1939
09-25-2007, 06:59 PM
Thanks Ugo... I was going to follow the instructions in the book just in case.

Just checked, the restart button is not active!

DooDaH2007
09-30-2007, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In that way trimming becomes a nearly "constant" thing to do, to adapt it at your current speed at level flight, alway looking for those extra kph you can squeeze out of it. During combat I generally don't have the time of trimming so finely, as things happen too quickly, but I still try. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have it setup the same on my micosoft FF2...
Using the tophat, auto repeated presses left/right for rudder trim and same for elevator trim on up/down...
Diagonals are reset trim...

I may only be flying for a short time in this game, but I use trim all the time...

Dash_8
10-01-2007, 07:37 AM
The trim in 1946 doesn't have that horrible lag that was put in to stop the 'bat turns'. I don't understand why Oleg changed the trim in the first place. If he really wanted to stop the instantanious full aft trim and full aft elevator turn, which was known as the bat turn, all he had to do was implement structural limitations to the aircraft.

The aircraft in this game DO NOT suffer any damage from too many G's. For example, if you were flying along and rolled into an 85 degree bank, pulled the stick all the way back and ran the trim full nose up, you are going to bend or break some structurally important part of the aircraft due to exceeding its load limit.

Every aircraft has a limit to how many G's it can withstand before something bad happens to it. I have over 6000 hours in real life and every airplane manual has these limits published in them. A Cessna 172 is limited to 3.8 G's in the normal catagory, but if it is lightly loaded, can go to 4.4 G's in the Utility catagory. The Dehavilland Dash 8 I currently fly is in the Transport Catagory and limited to 2.8 G's. I don't know the exact load limits of all the fighters in this game, but there is currently no punishment for exceeding them.

Oleg implimented the high speed limit to the planes but NOT the high G limit. Yes you can cause catastrophic structual failures if you go to fast in the game, but not for exceeding the load limits, or G forces of the aircraft.

Some of the manoevers that we see people in the game do would have bent, wrinkled the skin, or caused importand parts of the plane to detach. These planes couldn't pull a lot of 6G+ maneuvers without breaking up in flight.

So changing the way trim works was not a good solution. Just impliment the load limits to the aircraft and if a pilot does something stupid like a bat turn, they break their aircraft in some way. Trim on a slider cheating problem solved.

buzzsaw1939
10-01-2007, 08:24 AM
Dash_8.. I've been hopeing another high timer would come along to help me with this, where you been? I was starting to think I should just forget it! I'm getting to old to explain my self very good anymore.

Right on about the g-force damage, I think what they did was count on the black out instead, which by the way is too sensitive, as I'm sure you would agree, originaly I left it off for that reason, but sense every one insist on full real, I thought I'd give it a chance.

I'm confuzed when you say theres no lagg in 46, I diffenatly have a 1 to 2 second lagg when I start in flight, in qmb, in any air craft! and am constantly chaseing it for level flight! I would call that "horrible" I'm starting to think theres another version of 46 or something, any ideas?

Have you tried my test mentioned above?

Dash_8
10-01-2007, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Dash_8.. I've been hopeing another high timer would come along to help me with this, where you been? I was starting to think I should just forget it! I'm getting to old to explain my self very good anymore.

Right on about the g-force damage, I think what they did was count on the black out instead, which by the way in is too sensitive, as I'm sure you would agree, originaly I left it off for that reason, but sense every one insist on full real, I thought I'd give it a chance.

I'm confuzed when you say theres no lagg in 46, I diffenatly have a 1 to 2 second lagg when I start in flight, in qmb, in any air craft! and am constantly chaseing it for level flight! I would call that "horrible" I'm starting to think theres another version of 46 or something, any ideas?

Have you tried my test mentioned above? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried your test and I don't have any lag at all in my elevator trim. The plane begins to pitch down the momment I roll the trim wheel on my Saitek X45 forward. I have elevator trim assigned to Rotory 1. In fact, I flew the plane around for a while just using the trim wheel, ailerons, and rudder. I tried to land the P51 with out using the elevator and almost did it on my first try. I bounced and didn't react fast enough and broke the landing gear on the second impact. Not bad for just using elevator trim to control pitch. I think I would have lived.

I had that HORRIBLE 1 to 2 second lag that was implimented to stop the 'bat turns' and 'trim on slider' cheats in the original version of FB, but that has been gone since Pacific Fighters I think. I know there was a 2 second lag in the trim in FB+AEP 2.04, but I think it was removed with PF. I definately don't have it in 1946. It is instantanious and I can fly by trim alone on 'full real' settings.

I've been lurking around here a few times a week. I just haven't had much to say the past few months, but I've been waiting a long time to vent about the aircraft having no limit to how many g's can be pulled in them. I read that even an F-4 Phantom had around a 6g load limit. The blackout doesn't stop the high g manoevers people do because even though you can't 'see' while blacked out, I can still fly the airplane in game.

I don't know why you have the trim lag in 1946. I live in the US but my copy of 1946 is from Australia. I haven't had the trim problem in a long time.

JG53Frankyboy
10-01-2007, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dash_8:
.............................
Oleg implimented the high speed limit to the planes but NOT the high G limit. Yes you can cause catastrophic structual failures if you go to fast in the game, but not for exceeding the load limits, or G forces of the aircraft.

................. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i will try to remember this next time when i will loose my wings in a P-51, Ki-84, Go-229 (as examples) in a high G maneouver............

anyway, sure, the game engine has its limitations - and the high G restrictions are not very good made (and for sure not like in real ! ), but the games has limitations , IIRC its 15Gs for all planes.

Dash_8
10-01-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dash_8:
.............................
Oleg implimented the high speed limit to the planes but NOT the high G limit. Yes you can cause catastrophic structual failures if you go to fast in the game, but not for exceeding the load limits, or G forces of the aircraft.

................. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i will try to remember this next time when i will loose my wings in a P-51, Ki-84, Go-229 (as examples) in a high G maneouver............

anyway, sure, the game engine has its limitations - and the high G restrictions are not very good made (and for sure not like in real ! ), but the games has limitations , IIRC its 15Gs for all planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is news to me. I have never had an airplane lose a wing or break up in flight in this sim due to excessive g's. I've seen them break-up if I fly to fast, like nearing 900 kmh, but not from to many g's. Not saying it hasn't happend to you, but I personnally have not seen it since the original IL2 up to 1946.

Maybe it is because of the 15g limit you speak of. I have never pulled any manoever like that. I try to fly the planes like a fly in real life. I never would have even thought of the trim cheats and bat turns that people did. I just fly the way I always have and use the controls like I do in a real airplane. I try to be smooth and coordinated. Not just 'game the game' as they say.

Maybe some more realistic load limits would be a good fix instead of the 15g limit across the board?

buzzsaw1939
10-01-2007, 11:14 AM
Dash_8.. thank you for the quick reply... it helps a lot trying to figure this out! I know you would know the difference if there was lagg, no disrespect to the simmers, theres just a big difference in RL, It sounds like if I can change my trim to a wheel on my throttle, it might work, thanks again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I also fly in game like I do in RL, like you, to many hours to change that!

It saved a lot of hassle to fly all day with trim alone! like you said, even landing!

buzzsaw1939
10-01-2007, 04:55 PM
Ok!... I can get instant response with the man rng knob, but it only works in one direction and is a pain to use, pressing it in over the top of the throttle while turning it! the ant elev knob would be better, but it didn't work out of the box! (Cougar) I wish I'd never bought this expensive piece of junk! Its just proof that you don't always get what you pay for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Dash_8
10-02-2007, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!... I can get instant response with the man rng knob, but it only works in one direction and is a pain to use, pressing it in over the top of the throttle while turning it! the ant elev knob would be better, but it didn't work out of the box! (Cougar) I wish I'd never bought this expensive piece of junk! Its just proof that you don't always get what you pay for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have my trim on the wheel next to my left thumb on my Saitek X45 throttle. It really does work pretty close to the real thing. It even has a slight detent at the neutral position and rolls forward and back from there.

I did go and try your test after setting my trim to the hat switch and you are correct, it did have about a 2 second lag. Much harder to trim properly with buttons than the rotory on my X45. I can see and feel, because of the detent, exactly where my trim is set with the wheel.

Some times you do get what you pay for. I have 2 buttons on my X45 that are broken and the trigger will stick in once in a while; what a waste of ammo when that happens, but I only paid 75 dollars for a hotas set up.

buzzsaw1939
10-02-2007, 08:12 AM
Dash... I truly thank you for doing that test I was starting to loose my mind with frustration, I think theres a lot of guys in here that would like to help, but are afraid of the rules about cheating, with sliders and wheels, I guess my values are old fashion, because I still think in terms of, how is it cheating to want the planes to operate realisticly in your own game and computer and with your own controls, guys like us don't need to cheat, matter fact, I don't know if I know how! that in it's self would be hard for me to do.

There is a slight detent on the rotor of the Cougar throttle, I tried to set up trim from the detent clock wise, and down trim from the other, all I get is up trim, I don't know if that knob is not working or theres a trick to it.

Is that rotor wheel on your stick supposed to be a throttle option? I ask because of the detent!

Heres some irony, the last set of controls I built for an experimental plane cost less than this piece of pot metal I'm trying to figure out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Thanks again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-02-2007, 08:30 AM
Yep. I have my elevator trim on primitive mouse wheel, and I get the same response as dash~8. It works.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-02-2007, 09:13 AM
Lexx.. I'm not sure what you mean by primitive mouse wheel, I tried a second mouse and even a roller mouse, couldn't get the wheels to take, I even tried hooking up my old Saitek to see if I could use the throttle slider for the trim, nothing seems to work, I'm feeling pretty dumb! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Dash_8
10-02-2007, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Lexx.. I'm not sure what you mean by primitive mouse wheel, I tried a second mouse and even a roller mouse, couldn't get the wheels to take, I even tried hooking up my old Saitek to see if I could use the throttle slider for the trim, nothing seems to work, I'm feeling pretty dumb! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When assigning an axis to a control, like a mouse wheel or a rotory device, be sure you assign it in the HOTAS section of the control list. This is at the bottom of the control list in the game, NOT the entries of "Elevator trim up" and "Elevator Trim Down" that are near the top of the list. At the bottom under the HOTAS section is one for "elevator trim axis".

You probably already knew this as you have been playing for a while. I made this mistake a few years ago when I first got my X45.

Dash_8
10-02-2007, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is that rotor wheel on your stick supposed to be a throttle option? I ask because of the detent!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the rotory wheel is on my throttle by my left thumb. It seems like it was intended to be elevator trim and it works great for it.

I would not even think to use the "elevator trim on a wheel" cheat. I too just want my trim to be like it is in a real airplane.

I just wish the planes had a realistic limit to the amount of G's they can pull before something bad happens to the airframe. That would end the 'bat turn' and other 'trim on a slider' cheats because if you did it, you would overstress the airframe and damage something. No need for the delay in the trim function to prevent cheating if we had proper load factor limits.

buzzsaw1939
10-02-2007, 10:36 AM
Thanks Dash... I agree about the g's, it would solve a lot of problems.

About the hotas control section, thats it! the funny thing is, I thought of that last night just before I went to sleep, because I did know that, but totally forgot about it this morning! duh! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif thanks again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Dash_8
10-02-2007, 11:52 AM
Glad I could help. I made the same mistake with the assignment of controls when I first went to a HOTAS from a 'regular' joystick. I just had to make sure the positive or negitive symbol was correct in the axis setting. The first time I set elevator trim in the HOTAS section I had it backwards, so the trim ran backwards. After I fixed that, the trim on a wheel has been great.

buzzsaw1939
10-02-2007, 12:09 PM
Rodger that,.... I did the same thing, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

matter fact I still do it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-02-2007, 12:53 PM
YAAAAYYYY!.... Got it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thank you so much for your help, now I can fly!

LEBillfish
10-02-2007, 11:16 PM
Too funny, the exploit/cheat becomes a feature....Maybe if we're lucky they'll make elevator trim lose any ability to game the game come SoW.

buzzsaw1939
10-03-2007, 09:13 AM
LEBillfish...I'm not sure if your laughing at an old retired commercial pilot trying to get more realizim, or laughing with me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Come back....

LEBillfish
10-03-2007, 04:34 PM
Neither....

In this simulation elevator trim has been used as an exploit since before I started flying here (the day of the release of FB, so apparently in IL2 original). As others have described clearly....By shifting the trim from one extreme to another rediculous manuevers that the planes were never able to accomplish were able to be performed.

Placing the action on a "slider", one could shift from full negative to full positive and back in a matter of a second....So even porpoising to evade fire became a rediculous action.

First off.....Though I can use spinning tires, E braking and hard excelleration as I turn the front wheels the opposite way to make a turn....It's not the correct way to turn it just like using "trim" is not the correct way to manuever an aircraft.....Just because you "can" do it doesn't make it right.

Secondly, trim on these old planes came in the form of little tabs for fine tuning quirks of that plane, and slightly larger movable surfaces within the elevator itself....So essentially 3 actual working surfaces...In some others the entire surface itself was moved. Clearly the smaller surface of the former did not have the area to work like the full elevator...The latter very slow in its adjustments as mechanical movement achieved the action and to minor degrees.........Here in the sim, it's as though the force of an entire elevator surface could be controlled to it's limits....Yet that simply not the case with used for minor adjustment.

Want real life?....Ok, lets talk more real life....Real life be it a "tiny" hand crank like on the Ki-61, or large wheels of the Bf109, you cranked away to have it reach its limits as it was a mechanical motion trying to fight against strong forces....So giving you the mechanical advantage cost you speed for power.

More so....You could not shift from one limit to the opposite in a split second.....Lastly, to work the trim would of taken something akin to the following in a fight....

reach over chest with right hand and crank trim 20x...WHile you work the throttle, and prop pitch with the left barring any other switching, as you rudder with your feet yet control the stick with your knees swinging your legs wildly back and forward and side to side as you crunch over and fire your guns with your chin....

uh huh....

Trim was NEVER as responsive as it could be abused here...Nor did it have the equivalent affect of the control surface used correctly, nor did it take as little effort as here...On and on....

So.....back and forth they went from no delay to having trim delay until finally those abusing the exploit as it works in the sim were stopped once more as they re-added the delay...

To fix how trim works, to be more like real would entail remaking the entire sim.....They're not going to do that so the delay is our only way to beat the cheats. So, your best hope is for BoB-SoW.

Lurch1962
10-03-2007, 05:17 PM
LEB,
You practically took the words right out of my mouth (or the three fingers I "type" with! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Yours so far is the best explanantion in this thread of the game's implementation of trim.

The fundamental point is this, lads (lady already knows). When you command trim, the game ALWAYS implements that ~2 second delay before internally adjusting the trim tab, be it by keyboard, slider or stick macro. If your stick were to send a macro of 10 key presses every 0.5 second, that macro would take 5 seconds to run. But each and every one of those sent key presses would be acted upon only after the two second delay applied to each has expired. So, when the macro's key press #4 is being sent (2 seconds after #1), key press #1 is just beginning to take effect.

==========================

Here's how the delay could have been better implemented. Do it like you would filter the output of a stick's (noisy) potentiometers. In other words, if the player commands a huge trim adjustment in a short period of time (as on a slider), do begin to apply trim immediately, but ramp up at a reasonable rate so as to "simulate" what a real pilot could do when cranking a trim wheel over multiple revolutions, which must occur at a necessarily reduced rate.

As it does for Buzzsaw, the current delay does drive me a bit bonkers!

--Lurch--

LEXX_Luthor
10-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Beating the cheats is not PC air combat simulation, but it is arcade Online dogfight shooter gaming. Hopefully, Oleg can create a full flight model for Offline play, and a disabled but "cheat free" flight model for Online play.

If Oleg is smart, he'll allow the more interested Online players the option of the full flight model, as the only true anti-cheat protection is fly with people you know. These are the people worth spending the time to fly with or against.

buzzsaw1939
10-03-2007, 07:07 PM
LEBillfish...I truly appreciate your explanation, it is the best I've heard so far! being rather new to this sim, and computers, its been a real pain trying to figure this stuff out.

Lurch.. I like your your idea for a fix, makes more sense to me!

I am getting used to the lag, its just so unrealisticly annoying, after all those years in the real world.

LEXX... I agree! I've never been on line with IL2, but I would think this bat turn thing would be easly spotted, and the person would be removed, I would also think that kind of a manuever would cause a high speed stall instead of giveing someone an edge, I just don't see how it can be called a fix! but what the hey do I know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEBillfish
10-03-2007, 07:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Beating the cheats is not PC air combat simulation, but it is arcade Online dogfight shooter gaming.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To a point...Yet a PC or even full flight simulator can NEVER exactly simulate air combat...Also, programming is tried, works and amazingly many instead of trying to master a simulation devote their time to gaming the game, or finding little loopholes in the program...

The only counter is to either fix the loophole, or worst case if impracticle make it so it cannot be abused.

In the case of trim (using a Ki-61 as example), elevator "movable trim" as it also had fixed tabs was done with the tiny hand crank into the box at your left elbow...a worm gear in the box provided some mechanical advantage, then sprockets and pullies further....The adjustable surface was lets say 1sq.foot total, compared to an elevator of maybe 24 sq. feet (just guessing as to both).......So there is NO way a trim surface could generate the effect of the elevator...More so, where as the elevator could be yanked to full almost instantly, the tabs couldn't as then you'd lose the mechanical advantage AND the fine tuning they gave.

The best fix would be, remaking trim to only have the effect proportionaly equal both in time and force to r/l....That would take remaking the sim, and to a degree would make trim almost pointless as it would do so little.

So a compromise is made, make trim do more then it could so you would HAVE to trim, hence experience an additional aspect of flying you wouldn't if they made the PC sim real (as we'd not notice the effects on a PC)......Sadly, that then forces countering the exploiters, hence the delay.

So in the end it's a fair compromise, as really once in hard turning combat you'd most likely not be trimming...Running or pursuit maybe, not hard turning while fighting.....Funny, just as I use it in the sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-03-2007, 08:40 PM
Not bad!...If I understand you correctly, I would only argue the point that if they could just slow it down, like a 5 to one ratio, instead of a lag, it would be more realistic, and would be kinda hard to use it in a bat turn!

LEBillfish
10-04-2007, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Not bad!...If I understand you correctly, I would only argue the point that if they could just slow it down, like a 5 to one ratio, instead of a lag, it would be more realistic, and would be kinda hard to use it in a bat turn! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not the point really though..........Trim in the sim is required much more then in r/l as its effects are more dramatic so you MUST trim, hence forcing you to perform somewhat the tasks of flight.

So if made any quicker, it's possible (as it still sadly is) to utilize trim in a turn fight to added benefit........Any quicker and the ability to exploit it only becomes worse.

However reducing the need to trim (to make it more realistic) addressing the exploitation then takes away that aspect and makes the sim even more a game....

Sometimes it is simply a matter of lesser evils.

buzzsaw1939
10-04-2007, 08:16 AM
Now I understand what your saying, I agree! given the fact that you can't duplicate stick forces, there can be no comparison to reality, however, I keep hearing excuses for Olegs "adjustment" and I can't quiet buy it, as I have said in other threads, MSFS's are not that realistic, but they did get the trim right! so it can be done.

Thanks for hanging in there on the replys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEBillfish
10-04-2007, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
MSFS's are not that realistic, but they did get the trim right! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However....In MSFS you don't have people gauging their self worth by how many people they shoot down online at any cost, honest or cheat either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
10-04-2007, 11:39 AM
Right on!!... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Metabaron2005
10-05-2007, 03:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terriblysilly:
Hello! I have read mention that one can use elevator trim to make a plane accomplish tight turns that otherwise it would not be capable of.

Which planes is this good for? Do you have a guide on this I can read? Thank you!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tight turns are boring ... if I loved tight turns I would have bought FSX to fly an Airbus A380 ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Outlaw---
10-06-2007, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Secondly, trim on these old planes came in the form of little tabs for fine tuning quirks of that plane, and slightly larger movable surfaces within the elevator itself....So essentially 3 actual working surfaces...In some others the entire surface itself was moved. Clearly the smaller surface of the former did not have the area to work like the full elevator...The latter very slow in its adjustments as mechanical movement achieved the action and to minor degrees.........Here in the sim, it's as though the force of an entire elevator surface could be controlled to it's limits....Yet that simply not the case with used for minor adjustment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trim tabs do NOT provide the aerodynamic force that trims the airplane. They provide aerodynamic force THAT MOVES THE CONTROL SURFACE-which trims the airplane. For example, to trim nose up, the trim tab moves DOWN. The aerodynamic force created by the trim tab pushes the elevator UP. The way it's implemented now, I do not believe there is anything wrong with the effects that trim has on the aircraft. Note that I'm not saying it's 100% accurate in the game, but it is well within the order of magnitude and probably much closer than that.

Although I can't say for sure, IMO trim can be applied a bit too quickly when using an axis (the FW-190 and any other aircraft that had electrically powered trim may be the exception). Unless the trim wheels of old are very different from GA aircraft of today, it took multiple turns of the wheel to go from full up to full down trim and since you could only turn it a little bit at a time (it's kind of like moving the cursor a long distance with a mouse that can only move 1/2 an inch- you have to keep picking up the mouse and moving it back to where you started) it took a few seconds (at least) to make a full deflection change. In the game it feels too quick, although I've never checked it with devicelink.

--Outlaw.