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View Full Version : bomber hit ratio and fighter guns ???



f.ip2
08-01-2007, 10:13 PM
Hi

I was playing few hours testing out the different planes, from ME 262 to Mustang always trying to shoot down the same bombers, b17, b29 etc.

what i started to wonder was the effectiveness of spitfire and other planes without cannons. while having 6 guns i hardly was able to inflict serious damanage to german bombers. i thought that with few hits you down the bomber but i needed to have few attempts to even down one bomber.

in addition what i started to wonder about was the effect of the cannon on the ME-262 flight pass. when fired it seems to shake the plane like if you are using the left and right rudder like crazy.

f.ip2
08-01-2007, 10:13 PM
Hi

I was playing few hours testing out the different planes, from ME 262 to Mustang always trying to shoot down the same bombers, b17, b29 etc.

what i started to wonder was the effectiveness of spitfire and other planes without cannons. while having 6 guns i hardly was able to inflict serious damanage to german bombers. i thought that with few hits you down the bomber but i needed to have few attempts to even down one bomber.

in addition what i started to wonder about was the effect of the cannon on the ME-262 flight pass. when fired it seems to shake the plane like if you are using the left and right rudder like crazy.

berg417448
08-01-2007, 10:24 PM
One correction...The Spitfire does have cannons.

I assume by 6 guns you refer to the 50 caliber guns on the Mustang. 50 calibers were good weapons but are not nearly as effective as 20 mm cannons. Many people find that 50 calibers are most effective when you set a shorter convergence (200 meters) and as with any gun it is more effective if you shoot from close range.



Some interesting reading for you:

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/G...ilot_Perspective.htm (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/%7Ejosephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm)

"The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required."


more food for thought here:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm


I have read comments from a few Luftwaffe pilots about the 30mm MK-108 cannon shaking the plane when it was fired but I have no idea if the effect is correctly modeled in the game.

Lurch1962
08-01-2007, 11:34 PM
The damage potential among various calibres of ammunition varies widely. As you'd expect, in general the larger the round the more destruction it can wreak. And in most cases explosive cannon ordnance are even more damaging.

When trying to down bombers (or any plane, for that matter) it's best to NOT fire from dead astern. Your bullets are less effective due to the way the damage model is structured. Rather, go head-on or try deflection shots. Cockpit, engines and (generally) wing roots are good spots to aim at.

After looking at many gun camera films over the years, I feel that plane shake due to firing of guns is for the most part overdone in this game. Even when your field of view (FOV) is set to the widest, i.e., lowest magnification, for some planes the shake is just too pronounced.

--Lurch--

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Mh I assume there is a lot left to learn. I started playing those games with the old Lucas Film games. But than cause I never was on Windows I never had access to play any other. I got this one because I wanted something realistic.

I can only marvel about how the programmed everything.

However I agree with the 30 mm cannon shake with the HE 162. A shake like vibration maybe, but not a heavy sidewards movement. This seems odd.

I have quite good results with diving onto or climbing up and hitting the bombers along the z axis with the cannons. Few hits only.
However hitting the engines from straight behind tru thats quite hard with guns only.

I had not very much investigated how convergence and hit impact helps with let me say the Cosair.


Aiming at special body parts ... well I find this to be the most difficult part. I do not even want to think about fighters.

The main problem I have flying with a Saitec ST290pro and having the elevation trim set to the throttle level to balance out the plane, it still shakes a lot when adjusting flight directions - and you do not want to sit dug behind a bomber rear gunner.

But to be honest I also still have quite some issue with getting the Revi running. I understand the basic idea of 1/10 rule, bomber filling the ring means 300 meters away, so lets fire. problem for is that at this distance the ace gunners can very often get me. so to precisly aim at around 400 or less seems to be tricky ...

specifically deflective shoots are hard for me to understand where to somehow I have to aim. specifically when the spot i need to aim at forces me to lift the nose sofar that the bomber itself is out of view.

well i could turn of the cockpit but well we do not want to do that.


i read about the gun sights at other planes having even a gyro provided impact pointer. how do you active and use the other gun sights? specifically can you do anything with the dials shown there, Spitire for example?

Widowmaker214
08-02-2007, 02:17 AM
fip2, The only aircraft with the gyro gun sight is the P51 D-20. Once you activate it, you can change the tic mark spacing for different targets. I forget which key activates it.. I use Alt-Del but it may be different in your bindings.
And deflection shooting is an art. For those of us that skeet shoot and hunt its a ot more easy. But its something you have to work at.
There are many ways to do it..
coming in from an angle...
putting the plane into a slip and banking a bit..
If you fly to where he is going to be..and let him fly in front of you, you can let him fly INTO your bullets. It just takes time and practice to get it down.
The more you fly, the easier it will get. Many times Ive shot down fighters that I did not see. In a tight turn, I pulled ahead, the bandit down below my nose... fired off a burst.. then let up on the stick only to see flaming derbies scattering out in front of me.


As far as the bombers go. The heavy's take a lot of damage before going down regardless of what you shoot at them (well, the 30+ cannons are the exception lol). Thats something Id expect.
But some, like the D3A, G4M, and even the stuka, R10, SU2, seem to be damage hogs when flown by the AI. More so than you'ld expect. Pacific pilots have always spoken about how the Japanese bombers went up in flames quite easily.
And that is only with the 50 cals. If you've got cannons, you can shred the medium bombers quickly if you hit them right.

I think its give and take at this point. I am of the opinion,(other than combustibility) that the 50s are fine. They do a good bit of damage, just perhaps they don't penetrate or combust like we might expect, but I can take down most fighters with one or two well placed bursts. I notice I get a lot more pilot kills with 50s. I'll make one pass, and the bandit will just slow roll and go down. The key is getting in close and shooting at your convergence. maximize your damage and your hit location.
The more you are on his 6 chewing his tail, the more ammo its going to take. The more of a tracking/deflection shot you get where you can get your bullets into the forward part of the aircraft, the quicker you can end it.

You can sit on a guys *** and blow a wing off with one cannon round... but you cant do that with the 50s


A few tips

Bombers : Attack head on and go for the cockpit or engines. You can take down even the biggest bomber with one burst if you take out the pilot.
Attack from the sides, top, or bottom and go for the engines. Stay away from the 6:00 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I usually fly up dead even with my target and make quarter circle turns into them and attack broad side. Minimizing my exposure to their guns.

Gun covergence should be set somewhere between 150 and 250.. which ever you are most comfortable shooting at. if you are not comfortable getting that close... then you best start working at it.


fighters...

Get in close. You cant hit what you cant see.

Wait for a tracking shot. Dont sit on his ***, get him in a turn and work your rounds towards the engines,cockpit and lastly the wings. You do more damage that way then firing from a dead 6 position.

TRIM YOUR AIRCRAFT. If you aren't trimmed out, you are wasting a lot of ammo. You'll get more bullets into your target when you are trimmed out. You're working your stick, and every time you ease up on it, if you aren't trimmed, you're gonna bounce the nose. Wasting ammo.


I usually hit with between 12 and 20% of my rounds.. and thats a fairly good percentage.

Its good to check those stats as it lets you know if you are on target or not.
(if you have G15 keyboard, a guy just released a nice applet to monitor such info right from the keyboard. Its on this forum here somewhere)

If you aren't hitting, 9 times out of 10 you are firing behind the guy. Thats one of the most common problems. Lead computation. Most people, tend to shoot behind. Try aiming more to the front.. lead your targets a little more than you are used to.

Short, controlled, bursts. Fire in short bursts and only when you KNOW you are gonna hit. No sense spewing off rounds.. then when you finally get the kill shot... oops. out of ammo.
Its a knife fight. Fight like it. Short quick jabs.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 11:02 AM
mh I see what you mean.

is there actually a online flight school
or flight sessions?

I looked into the p51 Gyro. The strange part
is that it is different when you hit shift f1 to
hide the cockpit. shouldn't the place of impact dot similar at least???

berg417448
08-02-2007, 11:18 AM
If you are speaking of the small "floating" circle when you are in no cockpit view...that is not a gun sight. It is a vector velocity indicator. It can be used as an aid in carrier landing.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 12:35 PM
that is true, but it also marks a point of the path of the shells.

berg417448
08-02-2007, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f.ip2:
that is true, but it also marks a point of the path of the shells. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in my experience. Try a test. Go to no cockpit view and then hold hard left or right rudder and also fire the guns. You'll see that the tracers are nowhere near where the floating VVI dot is.

A previous discussion on this subject:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/507...681031314#2681031314 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5071090314?r=2681031314#2681031314)

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 03:35 PM
why isnt the game manual more in detail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

never mind me, I made a logical thinking mistake.