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Chevy350
09-15-2008, 10:50 PM
could someone explain what the hammerhead maneuver is? or have a video or something?

same with immelman, i always here it but dont know they are

Chevy350
09-15-2008, 10:50 PM
could someone explain what the hammerhead maneuver is? or have a video or something?

same with immelman, i always here it but dont know they are

WTE_Galway
09-15-2008, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chevy350:
could someone explain what the hammerhead maneuver is? or have a video or something?

same with immelman, i always here it but don't know they are </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Part of the confusion is that the same terms get used for different things depending on the time period and whether you are talking aerobatics or combat.


The modern Immelman is a half loop upwards followed by a half roll. So you basically end up reversing your direction and gain height.

To execute a modern Immelman just start an upwards loop but as you approach the top (you will be upside down) roll the right way up and resume level flight going back the other way.

Its totally useless in combat ... it is better in combat to do a "split S" where you roll upside down first and then half loop downwards as you have a better chance of losing the guy on your tail as you disappear beneath his nose.



My limited understanding is that the traditional WWI Immelman started with a dive attack and then a climb out followed by a direction reversal back towards the target that was achieved with either a hammerhead or a wingover depending on the situation.



In a Hammerhead you pull completely vertical, kick full rudder either way as you stall, and come down vertical again before pulling out facing a different direction (usually 180 degrees) to the way you went up.

Here is a hammerhead (note how the pilot comes back down following the smoke trail he made on the way up):

http://www.fightercombat.com/clips/hammerhead_high.wmv

http://www.fightercombat.com/vid_hammerhead.htm


A wingover is basically a lazy hammerhead you climb at a less extreme angle (say 45 degrees) and kick the rudder in before you stall and reverse direction a bit more gracefully. I used to use wingovers against bombers in game all the time. It works well.

P.FunkAdelic
09-16-2008, 03:41 AM
The p-38 can apparently pull a mean hammerhead if you can manipulate the throttles independently, the rudder kick being aided by one engine at full throttle while the other is at idle.

Fehler
09-16-2008, 09:04 AM
When attempting a hammerhead, also keep in mind that the plane will tend to come back down on nose (so to speak) differently depending on which way your kick the rudder. This is because of the torque effect in the game.

Knowing this, and knowing which way your opponant turns better will give you an added advantage in combat maneuvers.

M_Gunz
09-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Learn the wingover, Chevy!
In a hammerhead you stop at the top and go back the same path you came up which leaves you
being a sitting duck for quite a while. In a wingover you arc over a tilted turn at the
speed of your choosing (if you're not in competition aerobatics) and come back down to the
side of where you came up. In combat you can change the exit direction again by rolling,
it's technically not a wingover then though.

Modern Immelmann is useful when you see a slow target pass overhead going the other way.
Even if it isn't, you can change the exit direction by rolling as you go pure vertical
in the half loop. If he didn't see you (you being under his nose) and you are careful
to come up a little below and directly behind him then chances are you can stealth him.

general_kalle
09-16-2008, 10:55 AM
the other day i had a very succesful use of the hammerhead in my P47 (didnt know the name of it thought)

maybe it was not quite a hammerhead but nearly

i was being chased by two AI Ki43's (coop) and to escape i made a vertical climb, they stalled before i did. at the top of the climb i fell over backwards, and on the way down i took out my chasers wingman in a beautiful burst then i dove down and came up on the lead aircraft.

M_Gunz
09-16-2008, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
the other day i had a very succesful use of the hammerhead in my P47 (didnt know the name of it thought)

maybe it was not quite a hammerhead but nearly

i was being chased by two AI Ki43's (coop) and to escape i made a vertical climb, they stalled before i did. at the top of the climb i fell over backwards, and on the way down i took out my chasers wingman in a beautiful burst then i dove down and came up on the lead aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With a hammerhead you kick hard rudder at the top and your propwash yaws your nose 180 deg to
one side. There is a better direction to rudder towards, it is the same way the plane wants
to yaw at the start of the takeoff run.

You'd only be a sitting duck to another plane say above you or fast and not far below however
high the hammerhead went, or if those Ki's were able to get vertical before stalling.
Bud Anderson and a German went twice through the same kind of thing swapping who followed
who before he managed to shoot the sitting duck 109 above him. That first pass where the
109 almost lined up on him gave him nightmares for a long time afterwards, he wrote.

Stingray333
09-16-2008, 11:49 AM
Some links may be helpfull:

http://www.citabria.co.nz/PAS/Aerobatics.htm
(see the Stall Turns powerpoint file)

http://www.fulldeflection.com/index.php/manoeuverscatal...rofab1/46-manoeuvers (http://www.fulldeflection.com/index.php/manoeuverscatalogue/34-aerofab1/46-manoeuvers)

http://www.fulldeflection.com/index.php/manoeuverscatalogue/42-catalogue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver

http://www.dubairchobbies.org/aerobatic_maneuvers.htm

Pay particular attention to the control inputs mentioned in these links, namely full rudder, full opposite rudder and sometimes nose down (depending on the plane)

For a long time I was working on hammerheads and trying to only use the rudder, and it would end up stalling out and rolling rather than the desired hammerhead. Also experiment with decreasing the throttle near the top to reduce the gyroscopic forces torquing the plane, and try to go in the direction that the engine torque is trying to move the plane anway, rather than fight it.

It is also good to work on tail slide maneuvers as well, where you go vertical straight up, and stall coming straight back down tail first, you know you did it right if your airspeed goes negative in IL-2

Stingray

R_Target
09-16-2008, 08:53 PM
Hammerheads have been difficult for me since v4.03 rudder lag was added.

M_Gunz
09-17-2008, 12:48 AM
rudder lag?

DKoor
09-17-2008, 07:36 AM
Gotta say there's something in R0NNC0's words.
Hammerheads prior to v4.00 or perhaps should I say v4.01 (for me) were piece of cake, now they are harder to perform that clean as they could be in the past.
It was my fav tactic in 109 because barely anything can hang out on prop so long.
And if bandit follows you in a nice hammerhead, you have a clean shot with no deflection where even a child could score.

M_Gunz
09-17-2008, 08:28 AM
Prior to 4.0 we had some degree of auto-rudder.
Remember the big thread the pilot's and CFI's all posted in about not being able to ride stalls?