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View Full Version : the power of 20mm hispano?



skabbe
02-20-2005, 07:04 AM
hello, every one seem to agree with that hispano is really powerfull. as a tempest fan i finde that very nice. but i dont really know why they are so powerfull. is the bullet formed and processed in a special way? or do the gunpowder have a special mix?

Foxtrot-Hotel
02-20-2005, 08:08 AM
maybe they are just overmodelt...like a lot of things in game...

JG7_Rall
02-20-2005, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Foxtrot-Hotel:
maybe they are just overmodelt...like a lot of things in game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

IBTL

or

IBTW (in before the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

VW-IceFire
02-20-2005, 08:24 AM
Hispano is generally considered the most effective of the 20mm cannons of WWII.

There's a bunch of reasons.
1) Very high muzzle velocity. The length of the barrel has something to do with this (and the Hispano barrrel is really long). So the shell strikes the target at a higher rate than on other cannons.
2) Larger shell. The Hispano is a 20x110mm shell.
3) It also is firing a heavier shell than the competition.

Go here and scroll down to the 20mm cannon section: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

If you compare the cannons, the Hispano really does come in with a very good combination (weight+speed+size). It was also probably the least reliable at the start of the war (although by the end it was roughly as reliable as the other two competitors). And its refire rate, although slower, is still quite high.

As a Tempest fan, you should also be looking at the Hispano Mark V. It was fitted to all but 100 of the Tempests and it was a lighter cannon, shorter barrel (so that it was flush mounted with the Tempests wing), and with a higher fire rate. It does loose a bit of muzzle velocity but its still higher than the others. The Hispano Mark V is pretty much the ultimate WWII era cannon. You're still paying a price in ammo duration with the bigger shells (the MG151/20 equipped German aircraft generally had a bigger ammo supply).

Also keep in mind that the Hispano was one of two major methods of operating a 20mm cannon. The other was the German MG151/20 which was a ligher shell, slightly lower muzzle velocity, higher fire rate, and featured a special high explosive round. This made it almost as destructive as the Hispano. Unfortunately, in-game, there is some sort of bug thats still being discovered, that makes the MG151/20 hit without that high explosive effect.

skabbe
02-20-2005, 08:49 AM
thank you icefire, i thought that the good answer would come from you. did hispano make any explosive bullets?

LStarosta
02-20-2005, 09:06 AM
Real men use 8mm Mauser.

skabbe
02-20-2005, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Real men use 8mm Mauser. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not if they can carry more...

Atzebrueck
02-20-2005, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The Hispano Mark V is pretty much the ultimate WWII era cannon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would describe the Mauser MG 213/20 as the ultimate 20mm cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif:
1300 rpm
1065 m/s

It was meant to replace the MG 151/20.

(... it wasn't used in serial production planes, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

DmdSeeker
02-20-2005, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skabbe:
thank you icefire, i thought that the good answer would come from you. did hispano make any explosive bullets? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All Hispano rounds in aircraft were explosive. That's pretty much the difference betweena cannon and a machince gun ('tho it's not a 100% definaition). There were some solid armour piercing Hispano rounds made; but I don't think they were ever used.

Have a look here:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

3.JG51_BigBear
02-20-2005, 03:09 PM
I have some great videos of these things in action. I'll thumb through some of my back up CDs and see if I can find them. They are just unbelievably effective air to air weapons.

chris455
02-20-2005, 03:33 PM
If ya can't kill it with Ma Duece you prolly shouldn't be huntin' it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Loki-PF
02-20-2005, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
If ya can't kill it with Ma Duece you prolly shouldn't be huntin' it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats why the M2 is still in combat service to this DAY! Can't say that for alot of its contemporaries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Galaboo
02-21-2005, 03:59 AM
German 20mm Cannons can't tear a wing off any plane in more than 3 seconds of non stop firing.

Allied 20mm Cannons can blow a plane up in less than 1 nano second (No sarcasm).

"Oh your a whiner Galaboo, boohoo... don't change it because the only way I can get kills in this game is by using the Spitfire, if they reduce the damage of that plane what other uber plane is there for me to fly?", you'll probably say. Get some skill Rookies...

People who call others Whiners are just ignorant to the facts, because if the game is corrected they'll start losing their precious (read: worthless) points.

Fehler
02-21-2005, 04:20 AM
On the 8th day, the creator made the .50 cal and the Hispano!


Seeing this, the Dark One attempted to thwart the Creator's plans of air superiority by creating the MG 151/20, but alas the Creator relegated the Dark One to "Luftwhiner" status and refused him the Minengeschoss round... forever forcing the balance of power in favor of the red team.


"...and the Blue Team shall forever be cast into saddness and dispare and forced to feed on marshmallow cannon..."

So sayeth the Sheppard, so sayeth the flock. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-21-2005, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
On the 8th day, the creator made the .50 cal and the Hispano!


Seeing this, the Dark One attempted to thwart the Creator's plans of air superiority by creating the MG 151/20, but alas the Creator relegated the Dark One to "Luftwhiner" status and refused him the Minengeschoss round... forever forcing the balance of power in favor of the red team.


_"...and the Blue Team shall forever be cast into saddness and dispare and forced to feed on marshmallow cannon..."_

So sayeth the Sheppard, so sayeth the flock. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif I'm still wondering if this will be rectified in the pending patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

TB

VW-IceFire
02-21-2005, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galaboo:
German 20mm Cannons can't tear a wing off any plane in more than 3 seconds of non stop firing.

Allied 20mm Cannons can blow a plane up in less than 1 nano second (No sarcasm).

"Oh your a whiner Galaboo, boohoo... don't change it because the only way I can get kills in this game is by using the Spitfire, if they reduce the damage of that plane what other uber plane is there for me to fly?", you'll probably say. Get some skill Rookies...

People who call others Whiners are just ignorant to the facts, because if the game is corrected they'll start losing their precious (read: worthless) points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMHO, the Hispanos effectiveness seems about right with whats been written on it. The MG151/20 on the other hand is not living upto that potential. I'd rather not see any of the other 20mms (Japanese, Allied, Russian, any) loose effectiveness or they will become heavy machine guns which isn't right either.

PBNA-Boosher
02-21-2005, 06:39 PM
POWAH! RAW POWAH!

There are many factors to consider:

caliber
muzzle velocity
projectile weight
bullet size
explosive force
shell weight

All of these things add up to produce the power of a shell. I'm not sure what the exact factors of the Hispano shell are, but give me a few hours and I'll edit this post with that info.

EDIT: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html

This link has the information on those factors listed above. It's that which contributes the power to the shell. Look to find out whether the shell is a Hispano Mk. II or Mk. V.

Bull_dog_
02-21-2005, 07:09 PM
Its all about Foot-lbs. and ballistic coeficient in terms of energy and then penatration is also heavily influenced by how a projectile holds its shape and weight during penatration....

To better understand the relationship between the various rounds from a quantitative aspect calculate or look up the foot-pounds of hitting energy of various ammo...all things being equal (and they aren't exactly but it is a start) if one round has 20% more footpounds of energy at a constant range, it should do approximately 20% more damage....now the x factor is what kind of projectile...an explosive round will only penatrate till it explodes...a AP round will penetrate until it runs out of energy...and icendiary round/tracer will lose weight and is lighter I believe to begin with but does a nice job of lighting leaking fuel tanks up. Armor piercing ammo and ball ammo only do damage if they hit something solid like a strut, gas tank, engine block etc where those items are likely to cause periphery damage due to flying debris. Explosive rounds do more damage to the skin of the aircraft and surrounding stuff like cables, struts etc....ball ammo can pass right through fabric and not damage anything unless it hits something...wood splinters badly and can cause sheer failures and bending failures depending on the hole etc..

In the end, I like where the hispano is and I'd like to see it used as the benchmark round and bring all other rounds to where they need to be relative to the hispano...my reasoning is that I really don't know what it was to shoot at another aircraft, but I'd rather error on the strong side for weapons than the weak side...not getting shot is always the key to survival. I believe the HMG rounds and the Mg151/20 to be slightly inferior from a relative standpoint...not lots, but some. I have maintained that the DM's of many Russian aircraft are part of the problem...too tough structurally given what they are made out of. Some would rather the ammo loads be on the light side, but in the end I think that to be personal preference based on what people have read....no aircraft could take damage from any of the above weapons at convergence for more than a split second...nose mounted weapons like the Lightning, Yak and 109 are always at convergence and should really be damaging out to 500 meters and beyond.

One last thing that I don't think is modelled is the effect of range and direction of the aircraft...I could be wrong about that as I have never heard anything from Oleg, but particularly small caliber ammo, was effective at close range...under 300 meters but was very ineffective outside of that. In game, everything is tuned to short range shooting....I suspect that is because of the tendency for some aircraft and ace pilots saying you had to be close....there was a reason for that...the 109 for examle, had not rudder trim and the pilot had to use his feet to get a shot and that combined with the snatching of wing slats made the 109 very inaccurate...top aces got real close so that stuff didn't matter....you won't hear that same thing from lightning pilots...they will tell you long shots were common...no torque and lots of ammo to use. Odd how these things translate into the game though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Enofinu
02-22-2005, 12:51 PM
every cannon is undermodelled in this sim. should be at least 2 times more effective. now you have to pour enemy with hits when in real life few hits from cannon was enought for downuing the plane

Secudus2004
02-22-2005, 03:37 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/WhirlyBomber.jpg

The Whirlwind was the first British fighter to carry the Hispano-Suiza Mk I 20mm cannon... As can been seen from the Photo above, it had a concentrated fire pattern! If only Westlands had built the MkI with the proposed MkII nose. This would have had four Hispano-Suiza Mk II 20mm cannon with a continuous feed and 120 rounds per gun, three 0.303-in Browning guns with 400 rounds per gun, and a 30 gallon fuel tank, instead of the Hispano-Suiza Mk I with standard 60 round drum magazines...

Yimmy
02-22-2005, 05:07 PM
If only they had given the Whirlwind Merlins....

WTE_Galway
02-22-2005, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
If only they had given the Whirlwind Merlins.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

griffins

NORAD_Zooly10
02-23-2005, 11:56 AM
IIRC all the Merlin engines were earmarked for Spits and Hurris, however the Whilwind would have been much more sucessful (and potentially devasting) if it had them.
~S~
Zooly
(no longer NORAD_Zooly)

Yimmy
02-23-2005, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
If only they had given the Whirlwind Merlins.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

griffins <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Griffins were just a late evolution of the merlin.