PDA

View Full Version : Elevator Authority, Trim & Structural Limitation Tests



BigKahuna_GS
06-04-2004, 11:28 AM
S!

Please no flames just test data, and please try this for yourself. I did about 50 quick dives from 3000m with the P51D,190A6,190D9,109G6 A/S. During the dive the object was to break the plane-cause a wing failure. During this time, I also saw some interesting reactions to speed & G related blackout or lack there of.

I have just been doing some short tests to figure out how the new structural limits work. I pulled the joystick full straight back as a quick and violent maneuver to purposely induce wing failure. Because the P51 has more positive elevator authority, I gave german planes more positive trim until I could induce a wing failure. I don't have a trim wheel, so these were taps of the keyboard. I used the islands map and a 25% fuel load for all planes. Here is what I've found so far :

P51D wing failure 100% of the time at 670kph neutral trim

190A6 wing failure about 1 out every 3 attempts at 670kph with 20 taps of nose up trim

190D9 (1945) wing failure about 1 out of every 4 attempts at 670kph with 30 taps nose up trim

109G6 A/S got to 50 taps nose up trim and could not make the wing fail until 750kph at around 1 out of every 4 attempts.
At 770kph wing failure was at around 95%. Thats 100kph faster than the Mustang for wing failure with probably full trim.

At 720kph with 50 taps of nose up trim and full stick pull back, I could not get a black out--just a bad gray out in the 109 --that's at 447mph with full stick and probably full trim----that just can't be right.

Would 50 taps of the keyboard be full trim ?

SPEED CONVERSION
720 Kilometers per hour equals 447.387 Miles (statute) per hour

Luft pilots can you give this a try with the 109 and see what you come up with ? Generally speaking all these planes did much better than the 51 in the blackout/grayout department. What I don't understand is if the 109 had poor elevator response especially at high speed-how come it pulls up so well ?

I have tracks but dont know how to post them sorry.


______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-04-2004, 11:28 AM
S!

Please no flames just test data, and please try this for yourself. I did about 50 quick dives from 3000m with the P51D,190A6,190D9,109G6 A/S. During the dive the object was to break the plane-cause a wing failure. During this time, I also saw some interesting reactions to speed & G related blackout or lack there of.

I have just been doing some short tests to figure out how the new structural limits work. I pulled the joystick full straight back as a quick and violent maneuver to purposely induce wing failure. Because the P51 has more positive elevator authority, I gave german planes more positive trim until I could induce a wing failure. I don't have a trim wheel, so these were taps of the keyboard. I used the islands map and a 25% fuel load for all planes. Here is what I've found so far :

P51D wing failure 100% of the time at 670kph neutral trim

190A6 wing failure about 1 out every 3 attempts at 670kph with 20 taps of nose up trim

190D9 (1945) wing failure about 1 out of every 4 attempts at 670kph with 30 taps nose up trim

109G6 A/S got to 50 taps nose up trim and could not make the wing fail until 750kph at around 1 out of every 4 attempts.
At 770kph wing failure was at around 95%. Thats 100kph faster than the Mustang for wing failure with probably full trim.

At 720kph with 50 taps of nose up trim and full stick pull back, I could not get a black out--just a bad gray out in the 109 --that's at 447mph with full stick and probably full trim----that just can't be right.

Would 50 taps of the keyboard be full trim ?

SPEED CONVERSION
720 Kilometers per hour equals 447.387 Miles (statute) per hour

Luft pilots can you give this a try with the 109 and see what you come up with ? Generally speaking all these planes did much better than the 51 in the blackout/grayout department. What I don't understand is if the 109 had poor elevator response especially at high speed-how come it pulls up so well ?

I have tracks but dont know how to post them sorry.


______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Magister__Ludi
06-04-2004, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:

What I don't understand is if the 109 had poor elevator response especially at high speed-how come it pulls up so well ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


May I ask you where did you read this this cr@p??
Bf-109, the real plane, could start a 6G! pull out at speeds higher than 750km/h TAS just by releasing the stick, NO STICK PULL WAS NECESSARY, if trim was in tail heavy config. Problems in pull out were encountered only if the trim was in nose heavy config, which was used to ease the stick forces for the pilot during dive.

Bf-109 pilot, just like pilots of any other ww2 fighter had to push the stick forward to keep the plane in dive (otherwise the plane pitches up at high speed, of course not higher than the speed at which nose tuck occurs) - nose heavy trim eased the stick forces, but the plane had to be retrimmed to neutral before attempting dive recovery (a tail heavy trim made the dive recovery so strong that overstressing the aircraft was very easy and extremely dangerous).

That was the reality, how is the reality is reflected in FB is completely another matter. At speeds above 450km/h the stick in neutral trim become solid, making impossible to blackout the pilot, which of course never happened in the real aircraft. Now with MW-50 equipped 109s you cannot blackout in neutral trim, which from realism point of view is simply outrageous! A fighter that can't pull more than 4G! I wonder what will come next, there was always a lot of creativity invested in crippling the 109, which is definitively the plane with the highest number of FM changes in whole Il2 sim history.

Returning to your problem Kahuna, of course you cannot break the 109's wings, simply because you cannot pull enough Gs to overstress it.

BigKahuna_GS
06-04-2004, 12:08 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ __________________________
Issy-Bf-109 pilot, just like pilots of any other ww2 fighter had to push the stick forward to keep the plane in dive (otherwise the plane pitches up at high speed, of course not higher than the speed at which nose tuck occurs) - nose heavy trim eased the stick forces, but the plane had to be retrimmed to neutral before attempting dive recovery (a tail heavy trim made the dive recovery so strong that overstressing the aircraft was very easy and extremely dangerous).
__________________________________________________ _____________________



But that is exactly what I did---"a tail heavy trim made the dive recovery so strong that overstressing the aircraft was very easy and extremely dangerous)."

I think I had max trim on the 109 (50 taps)--I was trying to break the airplane. Also I could not black out at 447mph pulling the stick back as fast as I could. From the exterior view of the track the 109 changes directions quickly no problem.

Also at 670kph in the 190D9 I pulled hard enough to momentarily stall the airplane with no blackout.

something seems amiss.



______________________



__________________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Fillmore
06-04-2004, 02:37 PM
"Generally speaking all these planes did much better than the 51 in the blackout/grayout department."

Huh? That's an odd spin to put on it. Looks to me like the P51 was the best, it pulled the most Gs the quickest with the least trim input (none), so blacked out the most and broke its wings the most.

Unless you think lack of elevator authority and inability to pull enough Gs to even black out, more less break the wings, is a good thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

BigKahuna_GS
06-04-2004, 04:58 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ _______________________
fillmore---Huh? That's an odd spin to put on it. Looks to me like the P51 was the best, it pulled the most Gs the quickest with the least trim input (none), so blacked out the most and broke its wings the most.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


There is no spin and did you try it for yourself ?

Yes I do think it a little odd that a 109 can be fully trimmed out nose high and you can pull the stick around as hard as you want without stalling, blacking out or breaking its wings off at 720kph--thats 447mph.

If you try this for yourself and look at the track from the external view you will see the 109 pulling out hard without any problems or side effects.

So you are getting the best of all worlds--manuevering hard without blacking out at an extremely fast speed. At 720kph, it would seem any excessive movement of the stick would cause a blackout.


_______________



At 720kph with 50 taps of nose up trim and full stick pull back, I could not get a black out--just a bad gray out in the 109 --that's at 447mph with full stick and probably full trim----that just can't be right.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Fillmore
06-04-2004, 11:14 PM
"So you are getting the best of all worlds--manuevering hard without blacking out at an extremely fast speed. At 720kph, it would seem any excessive movement of the stick would cause a blackout."

I think not. What you aren't getting is instananeous Gs like with the P51 and other planes. It may seem like a hard pullout, but it isn't, if it were you would be blacking out, and if it had high instananeous Gs then you would be ripping wings. I see the lack of wingripping and blackout as evidence that you aren't pulling the Gs, not that the structural/blackout limits are any different.

Now with the latest patch you can get this data directly from the sim via DeviceLink.

LEXX_Luthor
06-04-2004, 11:22 PM
Onset of Blackout may be a gradual thing, even at a constant gee, and the screen gets blacker and blacker with time.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WWMaxGunz
06-04-2004, 11:28 PM
Stick movement is not performance.

You say the 109 elevator was hard to move and the sim gives you that but you do not
know how the sim works so you judge your joystick angle the same for all planes? No?

The sim does not move the modelled controls the same angle as your stick always.
What you do with your stick is control the pilot, how hard he pulls the control stick
or steps on the rudder pedals. He has limited strength. If your final stick
senstitvity slider is 100 the when the stick is all the way to the edge he is pulling
with I think it is 50 lbs force no matter what plane. Yes, it is very possible to
pull with more but even a strong man can't do that all day and when under G-forces
50 lbs pull is allowing extra. It's a game decision not made in haste, "be sure".

So in your P-51 with no trim the pilot can move the stick how far for however much
you pull your joystick? Somehow I bet you yank the thing back full and fast with the
goal as breaking wings off, but you can say about that. However much the controls
move as opposed to your physical stick, the control surfaces move and the plane gets
X-number of G's.

Then you do the same in the 109-whatever and even with a pile of trim helping (20 or
30 taps? is full trim 50?) the pilot still moves the =controls= only so far and gets
Y-number of G's.

The comparison isn't if the wings snap off, it's when. And if you don't have some
indication of G's then you aren't saying much. The program to let you see G's and
more is in a file named UDPSpeed.zip which uses the DeviceLink capabilities of the
sim. I have a copy but no link to it, it was from a private source but may be up
somewhere.

Edit: check the simple device autopilot thread for the link to UDPSpeed.zip

At 670kph can you pull the P-51 out without breaking the wings? Betcha can. Is that
IAS or TAS and what alt? Go high enough and you're running into mach either way I
believe.


Neal

[This message was edited by WWMaxGunz on Sat June 05 2004 at 12:59 AM.]

JG77Von_Hess
06-05-2004, 03:13 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifHello Kahuna.
As u say no flaming. I have a track for u, cant host a link for it but will mail it to u.

P51D. 1030kph+ at around 3000M various pull outs and rolls at high speed 900kph+ low alt w max out left hand turn at 750kph+. no wing breaks.

Its recorded without the speedbar so watch it with manuel wievs and ctrl+F1 for bringin up the gauges.

I Think after testing that the P51 is the NO1 High speed fighter in FB. it perfoms well into compresseability. It might not be as rugged as the FW190A-D.

I cant reproduse any of ur test results btw. might be my stick settings tho??

Regards.

VH.

Fred_77
06-05-2004, 11:06 AM
S! BK

Full nose up trim is 80 taps from neutral, or just hold down the nose up trim key for 4 seconds. With this much nose up trim you can rip the wings off of just about any plane in a dive pullout, including all the 109's. In fact, just releasing all forward pressure on the stick will do the trick in most cases.

S!
Fred.

ElAurens
06-05-2004, 11:15 AM
The real problem is the frequency of P51 wing failures. In game they all break wings. In real life this was simply not true. Not every P51 tore it's wings off in pullouts at high speed.

Eventually, many of the P51 wing failures were traced to faulty locking mechanisms on the inner landing gear doors. The inner door would come open at high speed and the result was a wing root failure. This was fixed with an improved door latch.

I will agree that in game the P51 is a pretty good high speed fighter, but I have serious doubts about the kidd glove flying style that is necassary to survive in it.

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

BigKahuna_GS
06-06-2004, 05:31 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ _______________________
Fillmore--I think not. What you aren't getting is instananeous Gs like with the P51 and other planes. It may seem like a hard pullout, but it isn't, if it were you would be blacking out, and if it had high instananeous Gs then you would be ripping wings. I see the lack of wingripping and blackout as evidence that you aren't pulling the Gs, not that the structural/blackout limits are any different.
__________________________________________________ ________________________



I was hoping more people would actualy try flying and then comment. I am not sure instanues G's are all that good at high speed considering that it will shread the wings off a Pony every time.

Another thing even with kidd glove flying the pauses and lag online exacerbate the structural failures. I have experienced this first hand several times.

I am experimenting and it looks like heavy nose down trim acts like a "govenor" on the elevator to prevent over-stressing the P51 airframe at very high speed.



__________________________________________________ ________________________
JG77Von_Hess

posted 05-06-04 02:13
Hello Kahuna.
As u say no flaming. I have a track for u, cant host a link for it but will mail it to u.

P51D. 1030kph+ at around 3000M various pull outs and rolls at high speed 900kph+ low alt w max out left hand turn at 750kph+. no wing breaks.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Thanks Von Hess for trying it first and then commenting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would very much like to see your track, please private message me and I will give you my email address.



__________________________________________________ _______________________
Fred_77

posted 05-06-04 10:06
S! BK

Full nose up trim is 80 taps from neutral, or just hold down the nose up trim key for 4 seconds. With this much nose up trim you can rip the wings off of just about any plane in a dive pullout, including all the 109's. In fact, just releasing all forward pressure on the stick will do the trick in most cases.
__________________________________________________ _________________________




S! Fred,

thanks I never knew holding down the key would do anything. Instead of tapping can I hold it down for 1 or 2 sec --what would that be equivlent too ?

80 taps if full trim---wow and i thought 50 was tapping alot --LOL



______________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-06-2004, 05:59 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ _______________________
MaxGuns-So in your P-51 with no trim the pilot can move the stick how far for however much you pull your joystick? Somehow I bet you yank the thing back full and fast with the goal as breaking wings off, but you can say about that. However much the controls move as opposed to your physical stick, the control surfaces move and the plane gets X-number of G's.
__________________________________________________ ______________________


Max did you even read my first post?

I was purposly trying to break airplanes so I could figure out some sort of baseline for the new structeral limit settings. It was purely by accident that I noticed Luftwaffe planes even with heavy doses of nose up trim did not black out at high speed when pulling the joystick back hard.

I dont know if this is correct or not. But I thought any quick full movements of the stick at high speeds would cause major redouts/blackouts, especially the speed I was going in the 109--447mph.

So you can bet all your money Max---yup I was trying to break wings !

By the way Oleg says it is 15g's accross the board for structeral failure.



________________________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

WWMaxGunz
06-06-2004, 10:06 AM
Yup I read your first post, every word except the sig lines.

And I'm saying that the sim behaves with the 190's as you expect was real, your own
exercise shows that although you don't seem to understand. You seem to equate angle
of your joystick to angle of controls on the modelled plane which it ain't. It's
not about elevator response per stick angle from one plane to another. It's about
pilot strength and control stiffness not just from plane to plane but also as speed
changes.

All you've shown is that as modelled, the 109's have a very stiff stick at very high
speeds indeed, the modelled pilot could pull the plane out with 5/8's total trim (50
taps out of 80, 62.5% full) but not shear the wings while the P-51 pilot could shear
wings easily at neutral trim.

Hurrah. Does that mean the P-51 wings are weak as you seem to claim? You want to
show weak wings then get the G-meter and show em breaking at lower G's because the
thing you show so far says nada about G forces. If anything, it may show that the
P-51 stick is too easy to pull at high speeds but then it may not.

Try re-reading what I wrote.


Neal

JG77Von_Hess
06-06-2004, 03:26 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifHello Again Kahuna.

Sorry for my lack of ubi forum skills, ive added u to my list but cant seem to find a way to send private messege http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Regards.

VH

BigKahuna_GS
06-06-2004, 09:56 PM
S!
____
__________________________________________________ _____________________
MaxGuns-And I'm saying that the sim behaves with the 190's as you expect was real, your ownexercise shows that although you don't seem to understand.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Oh boy, how do you know what I expect to be real ? There is simply a new patch out with new structeral limitations and I am trying to experiment to understand flight envelopes.



__________________________________________________ _______________________
Maxguns-- You seem to equate angle of your joystick to angle of controls on the modelled plane which it ain't.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Negative. I am with the help of trim trying to peform violent quick manuevers at high speed that you would not normally perform to induce a wing failure. As Fred77 said-depending on the amount of nose up trim applied you could just about rip the wings off any plane in a pull up. By breaking wings you start to understand where the boundries are and how far you can push flight envelopes.



__________________________________________________ _________________________
MaxGuns-Hurrah. Does that mean the P-51 wings are weak as you seem to claim?
__________________________________________________ __________________________


Negative. I did not claim anything. I am trying to findout the best way to fly these aircraft with the new structeral limitations. With more trim position experiments, I have learned you can control most wing failures in the P51--that's a good thing to me.

As a byproduct of this elevator/trim/dive experimentation, I noticed that generally speaking even with heavy doses of nose up trim german a/c did not suffer blackouts like the Brit and US planes I flew.

I would think any sudden movements at high speed would cause redouts/blackouts and I did not see this with german a/c. Like I said in the beginning, I was hoping people would experiment before commenting.



____________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Ugly_Kid
06-06-2004, 11:52 PM
If you make trials with the device link based "flight recorders" you will notice that onset of the blackout is the same for all. You will probably also notice that the structural limit might be the same. The latter I do not know and it would not need to be so. This tells only that you're not able to exercise as violent manouvers with Bf as with P-51...

BBB_Hyperion
06-07-2004, 06:03 AM
We have now Devicelink Data and we have tracks none of them i saw here. Also the testparameters should be clear map etc. As well as some reallife dive tests wouldnt be bad to compare the claim.

Regards,
Hyperion

Fehler
06-08-2004, 12:09 AM
Kahuna, what is your conclusion then? If I am reading your posts properly, it looks like you are concluding that the P51 wing is weak and you blackout in it faster than in say a 109.

OK, lets examine that as I also did a few tests. Blackout happens at X amount of G's in all planes. So, if you are able to blackout in a P51 faster than a 109, you are obviously pulling more G's sooner. That means you can turn tighter at higher speeds than a 109. That's what your test shows. What that really means is that you cant pull the G forces required to black out in a 109 because of simulated stick forces. It would also stand to reason then that you couldnt rip a wing off since you cant get to (X) G's.

In other words, you are saying that you can drive one car to 100 MPH, cut the wheel hard left and the car rolls over. But in another car you can get it to 200 MPH and cut the wheel hard left and it WONT roll over. What you are failing to realize is that the second car doesnt turn as sharply as the first car, so it's poor turn radius wont allow you to roll it over. That's a two dimensional way to look at what you are saying, and I agree.

You can easily rip the wings off of a P51. Why? Because you can turn so sharply at a high rate of speed. You cant rip them off a 109. Why? Because you cant get the thing to turn fast enough to do it. It has nothing to do with wing strength, just how fast you can turn one from another at high speeds.

Now lets look at trim. Trim has always been FUBAR in this sim. Before they put in the 15 second trim fix (Which is not a fix it is a repair of something that doesnt work correctly to begine with) you could do amazing bat turns at super high speed. You can still do them, it just takes 15 seconds to get the trim to full while doing it. So adding in any trim into your test makes the test inaccurate.

At neutral trim, a 109 will not turn fast enough at high speeds to break a wing off (Because it cant pull enough G's) A P51 can, however. (Because the thing has much more elevator authority than the 109!)

Thus you prove my suspicions that the P51 turns way better at high speeds than the 109. The only thing is that you can pull so many G's so fast that you black out or rip the wings off.

Conclusion? The P51 is a better high speed plane. Historical? I dont know, never flew either in real life. But in the game, that's the way it is. So, know your G limitations and feel confident that if you are in a high speed dive and pull out the 109 cant follow you if you stay just under your blackout/structural failure limits... Because he cant pull the G's with you. In fact, he cant even turn tight enough to black out unless he uses trim! That means you can turn faster than him which means you have the upper hand in a P51!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

BigKahuna_GS
06-08-2004, 01:52 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ _________________________
Ugly_Kid
posted 06-06-04 22:52
If you make trials with the device link based "flight recorders" you will notice that onset of the blackout is the same for all. You will probably also notice that the structural limit might be the same
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Rgr that UglyKid. Oleg has already told me that structeral limitations is set at 15g's for all planes. I also had a discussion about blackouts and G-suits with Oleg. He said that russian and german planes held an advantage because of a reclined seat position. He also said that was modeled in FB, maybe something else has happened since the patch. I brought up G-suits and that blackouts would at least be even or a slight advantage. Nothing ever came of it. I will have to try the flight recoder.



__________________________________________________ _______________________
Fehler wrote---Kahuna, what is your conclusion then? If I am reading your posts properly, it looks like you are concluding that the P51 wing is weak and you blackout in it faster than in say a 109.
__________________________________________________ __________________________


Negative Fehler. I did not claim anything and I dont have a conclusion yet-too early for that. I am just trying to findout the best way to fly these aircraft with the new structeral limitations. With more trim position experiments, I have learned you can control most wing failures in the P51--that's a good thing to me.

I agree trim is the most unrealistic part of this sim, but we are stuck with it. I dont use a trim wheel but many do. There is a relationship between trim & elevator leading to wing failure. I am just experimenting trying to understand the new G parameters and structeral failure limits while adjusting trim.

I understand what you are trying to say but I dont think the car analogy is quite applicable and yes I do understand that 109 does not turn as hard as the P51 at high speed.

What i am trying to say is that given a high enough speed-any rapid movements of the stick should induce (no matter how well a plane turns)blackouts/redouts. I thought that the speed of 720kph/447mph and 50 taps of nose high trim would be enough for a blackout.

If you look at the external view, there is a rapid change of direction up with the 109. I dont know, maybe 447mph isnt a fast enough number yet to cause any plane a blackout with quick movements. I'm still trying to find out.



_____________________________________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-08-2004, 01:58 AM
S!

If you look at the external view, there is a rapid change of direction up with the 109. I dont know, maybe 447mph isnt a fast enough number yet to cause this plane a blackout with quick movements. I'm still trying to find out.


typo meant "this" plane not "any" plane.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

WWMaxGunz
06-08-2004, 02:13 AM
Get the program Ivank gave the link to in the simple autopilot thread.
Follow the directions in his earlier post to make it show a G-meter.

See for yourself. I'm waiting on a new HD for my gaming machine and
I'm not making threads asking why either, so it's up to you.


Neal

BigKahuna_GS
06-08-2004, 02:47 AM
S!


Rgr that maxguns I'm already working on the G-meter.

I am about done posting here ORR. If you post anything the staus quo is to jump to conclusions first. I was hoping more people would test and post some findings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not once did I say the Mustang had weak wings. In fact I said thru trim adjustments you could all but eliminate wing breakage. Which I found out after more testing.

Sadly, only one person actually tried to replicate what I was talking about with G induced blackouts and high speed, but it seemed many wanted to comment just the same.

oh well there are better things to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


_______________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"