PDA

View Full Version : Bf109 'red 7' has crashed



JG52Uther
07-16-2005, 09:18 AM
I saw this plane at the Oppenheim show,now things are looking bad.
http://www.suedwest-aktiv.de/region/zak/freizeit/170171...00a93cbe56e1c82b46e8 (http://www.suedwest-aktiv.de/region/zak/freizeit/1701715/artikel.php?SWAID=4f554c5c882b00a93cbe56e1c82b46e8 )

JG52Uther
07-16-2005, 09:18 AM
I saw this plane at the Oppenheim show,now things are looking bad.
http://www.suedwest-aktiv.de/region/zak/freizeit/170171...00a93cbe56e1c82b46e8 (http://www.suedwest-aktiv.de/region/zak/freizeit/1701715/artikel.php?SWAID=4f554c5c882b00a93cbe56e1c82b46e8 )

AerialTarget
07-16-2005, 09:23 AM
Nicht sprechen sie Deutsche!

FI_Willie
07-16-2005, 09:56 AM
Here ya go;
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The legendary Messerschmidt ME 109 of the air
sport association Degerfeld. It is the result of a landing failed
yesterday afternoon. The ENGINE of the historical fighter was torn
out.

The legendary Messerschmidt ME 109 of the air sport association
Degerfeld is destroyed. Yesterday afternoon failed an experienced
pilot the landing; the fighter rolled on the runway, the engine bored
itself into the meadow and was out torn. The pilot is intact.

Albstadt according to police data has itself the accident against
14.45 o'clock in approximately so to course-carry: To one for instance
15-minuetigen practice flight of an experienced 69-jaehrigen pilot
with the legendary Messerschmitt ME 109 of the air sport association
Degerfeld came these with the machine with the landing into
inclination, touched down first with a wheel of the chassis, tilted on
the second wheel and came with the bearing area of this side on the
fastened underground of the runway. The airplane was abruptly braked
and pulled by this contact on this side. In the consequence the
machine tilted forward away and bored themselves with the propeller
into the meadow. To an estimate it did not come. The engine was almost
torn from the trunk.

Manfred Birk, the first chairman of the air sport association, is
close to the tears; some of its colleagues hardly bring a word raus: '
it was luck in the misfortune, and the most important: Nothing
happened to the pilot.' It is according to Birk an old hare, extremely
experienced and world-wide one of the recognized specialists for this
old German fighter.

The ' ME 109 ' was the whole pride of the air sport association. In
approximately seven years and over 30,000 working hours of the
vierkoepfigen private mounting plate my shank laboriously on the
Albstaedter airfield restrauriert, was European-wide the hunter an in
demand star. ' the appointment calendars were fully ' report Manfred
Birk with betruebter voice: ' only recently it is returned home from a
large flight flugschau from Paris.' Where it also emerged, the
Albstaedter Messerschmidt with the characteristic ' D-FMWE ' was a
eyecatcher. Finally it was world-wide still the only flying copy.

Now a wreck, is questionable it whether the ME 109 will rise again
into the sky. ' pure one could repair it perhaps already again
together, only whether the quartet this insanity work aufhalst itself
again, is theoretical with difficulty conceivable ' says Manfred Birk.
The developed damage is, as it says to number only with difficulty: '
that was naturally everything idealistic, but if one could add the
troubles, 100000 euro might come.' The airplane was not insured. The
Federal Office of Aviation was informed. The kriminalpolizei took up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

translation by. http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box

Nick_Toznost
07-16-2005, 10:10 AM
"The pilot is intact", that's a relief. I love the German language, so literal.

Taylortony
07-16-2005, 10:14 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif that looks rebuildable to me, the fuselage is a very simple contruction and can easily be repaired, more of a worry is the spars, but the gear if i remember correctly is fue****e mounted, the engine may not be that bad either, it will be shock loaded but the wooden prop may well have saved the crank.... the disturbing part is the insurance issues, if it wasn't, its going to be a long rebuild, but i can see that flying again...

F0_Dark_P
07-16-2005, 10:21 AM
thanx for the translation FI_Willie

but this is really sad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
that 109 was a very unique airplane, i really hope they can menage to fix her, they just have to

all to many 109's have been scraped

VW-IceFire
07-16-2005, 10:28 AM
Its always a shame to hear about these stories.

Its good to hear that the pilot is alive and seemingly well. At least the plane didn't burn...or doesn't look to have. I hope the damage can be repaired...

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 10:31 AM
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz

Taylortony
07-16-2005, 10:52 AM
Thats not totally true, The problem is not such with the airframe but with a core Engine to use for the rebuild.... Airframe parts bar castings etc can be knocked up relatively easily, it becomes a problem when you need some of the more individual items, I know one company had to have a limited run of seals manufactured at a cost of just under ‚£1000 a go... this is because rubber degrades over time and 60 yr old seals are even stored under the most perfect of conditions are somewhat dubious.... Take the Beau on rebuild at Duxford, the problem they are having I believe is sourcing some Engines for it, The ones they have are from a different aircraft and later in design, so are heavier and bigger than the correct items, also the props are wrong and that much weight shift is not a simple thing to engineer round........

As an Aircraft engineer I will tell you from experience, an aircraft that has sat and done nothing will be in a worse state than something that has flown regular. Moisture will build up inside structures that simply sit on display and can often result in the dreaded tinworm... take the Beverly outside at the RAF museum, no amount of work could have saved that baby from the scrapmans torch....... if it had been possible to have flown it every now and then, the tale would have had a different outcome..

F0_Dark_P
07-16-2005, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i think a vintage plane/car deserves to be used, but i am a little split

i agree with you on the same time, couse you are always risking destroying unique and wery rare airplanes when using them, when you can use a replica that dont have that high historical value instead

Vike
07-16-2005, 11:11 AM
Oh no,Rote Sieben down...Scheisse! It's a shame http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Thanks for the Info JG52Uther http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
The pilot survived,fortunately.

Indeed,a wood-made propeller should have save the engine -perhaps- ,but the performances of the BF109G4 would have been quite bad (no prop pitch) and would have been historically unexact...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.flugwerk.de/new/me109/bild4.shtm

But,this association which made the 109G4 reviving is diserving nevertheless...

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i think a vintage plane/car deserves to be used, but sure i am a little split, i agree with you on the same time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vintage cars are a totally different story. When you have an engine failure or a flat tire it's no problem. Vintage aircraft on the other hand will pay a heavy price.

At the rate they are crashing these rarities, there will be nothing left for our grandchildren to see, accept for replicas. Replicas are nice but they lack history; they weren't there. Replicas are much cheaper and when one crashes it's not much of a loss.

If they do decide to repair "red 7" it will be no more than a replica to me. By the look of the damage I would say it "cartwheeled". The engine was ripped from its mounts. The firewall will be damaged. The wingtips hit the ground. The wingmounts and supporting structure will be damaged. The tail was nearly torn off. The 109 fuselage does not have a frame. The skin is actually the frame. Atleast the last two sections will have to be replaced.

With anyluck all that's left is the cockpit and possibly the main part of the wings, as long as they weren't bent. As for the engine I don't think it's such a big deal. If "red 7" has seen any amount of real action then I'd be sure the engine is not the factory original.

If it flies again it will only be a replica built around a few spare parts.

Black 6, Red 7, next?

Fritz

Taylortony
07-16-2005, 11:15 AM
you are missing the point a restored aircraft is not an original warbird.......... there are very few original aircraft left.......... define original.

A rebuilt genuine Spit that was done here consisted

A. the Data Plate
B. the leading edge of one wing.
C. some fittings.
The rest was brand new. A lot of these that you see are built around the data plate....

Ok another example using a modern light aircraft, one I know has had the Engine changed about 7 times, most of the instruments radio fit, One complete wing, both Undercarriage legs, wheels, tyres, control systems, fuel tanks, Prop, Windscreens, interior trim... need I go on? now these have happened over a period of about 25 years, as you can see what is actually left of the original plane is very little........ magnify that for 60 yrs and throw in a vague history even if it hasnt been totally restored, thats one reason why there is a Spit data plate for sale on ebay at ‚£3,100.. That is all you need these days to produce a "genuine WW2 Warbird"... purists will say its wrong and I tend to agree, but as in the modern example I gave, you could end up with that in the first place through wear and tear. You have to do it, safety is paramount in my business..


There is only one untouched 109 in the world I believe it still retains its original paint and that is in Australia..

Look at the Lancaster that has been respared and reskined, do you now say that is a replica? you are being a bit nieve there.

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
Oh no,Rote Sieben down...Scheisse! It's a shame http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Thanks for the Info JG52Uther http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
The pilot survived,fortunately.

Indeed,a wood-made propeller should have save the engine -perhaps- ,but the performances of the BF109G4 would have been quite bad (no prop pitch) and would have been historically unexact...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.flugwerk.de/new/me109/bild4.shtm

But,this association which made the 109G4 reviving is diserving nevertheless... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was in Augsberg last week. Gammelsdorf is very close by. I wanted to go on a "pilgramage" to Flugwerk but none of my buddies were interested. The "Augustine's Bier Halle" in M√ľnchen was the site of our groups pilgrimage.

BTW, I did visit Willy Messerschmitt's home in Bamberg. It's been converted into an expensive hotel. There's nothing more than a plague on the wall mentioning it was his home and birthplace.

TaylorTony, I have a friend in Bamberg who is doing an interesting bit of research and treasure hunting for hobby. After the war and during the occupation there was a stash of DB's in crates at one of the airbases. The Americans didn't know what to do with them so they used them as landfill, still in crates. They buried the whole lot. My friend is trying to pinpoint the location.

He also owns an airfield and flying club. Every year he hosts a "Last of the Luftwaffe Aces" meet. Last year Rall and Jaeger participated. I was invited this year but don't think I can make it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
you are missing the point a restored aircraft is not an original warbird.......... there are very few original aircraft left.......... define original.

A rebuilt genuine Spit that was done here consisted

A. the Data Plate
B. the leading edge of one wing.
C. some fittings.
The rest was brand new. A lot of these that you see are built around the data plate....

Ok another example using a modern light aircraft, one I know has had the Engine changed about 7 times, most of the instruments radio fit, One complete wing, both Undercarriage legs, wheels, tyres, control systems, fuel tanks, Prop, Windscreens, interior trim... need I go on? now these have happened over a period of about 25 years, as you can see what is actually left of the original plane is very little........ magnify that for 60 yrs and throw in a vague history even if it hasnt been totally restored, thats one reason why there is a Spit data plate for sale on ebay at ‚£3,100.. That is all you need these days to produce a "genuine WW2 Warbird"... purists will say its wrong and I tend to agree, but as in the modern example I gave, you could end up with that in the first place through wear and tear. You have to do it, safety is paramount in my business..


There is only one untouched 109 in the world I believe it still retains its original paint and that is in Australia..

Look at the Lancaster that has been respared and reskined, do you now say that is a replica? you are being a bit nieve there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, believe it or not I have pondered this question. The best answer I can come up with is this. If it is 50% or more original, then it's not a replica. But when you get into things such as the spit you mention, then that is a replica carrying a name plate.

Reskinned isn't so bad, although I do frown upon it. But I also understand it has to be done, like changing a tire.

To be honest, I know nothing about "red 7's" history. But, if it was just carrying a name plate then it wasn't such a big loss. I have seen so many pics and have heard so much hype about it, I thought it was one of the more than 50% originals.

What about the Emil in M√ľnchen? IIRC, it is almost completely original. I know it's the oldest 109 in captivity. It's number was 790 I believe. I can sleep at night knowing they will never fly it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 11:45 AM
Obviously things have changed a little over at Flugwerk. Last time I read their site they were offering the 109's with original engines.

This is what they are posting now.

"Due to the current non-availability of DB-601 / 605 -powerplants, Flug Werk decided to produce structural components for the Bf 109 only -including landing gear assemblies-, in order to supply those to rebuilders of original airframes who are in need of Airframe-Assemblies at affordable prices."

Guess I see your point TalorT when you mentioned your concern over the engine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

From what they posted before it seemed the originals were not so hard to get. Reality wins again.

Fritz

p1ngu666
07-16-2005, 11:56 AM
lots of 109's in museums.

and u really need to see these aircraft in there element, same with old cars. thats why goodwood is so popular...

Kurfurst__
07-16-2005, 12:03 PM
****, it so sad to see an old, rare warbird wrecked like this... I hope they can restore her, if by no other means, the Messerschmitt Foundation should lend a hand..

Too bad, I think its the same that flew in Zeltweg not long ago, I missed because I had other things to do but hoped I will see it next years show... appearantly, not. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Tully__
07-16-2005, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
There is only one untouched 109 in the world I believe it still retains its original paint and that is in Australia.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>..only a few kilometres from where I type this, hanging in our national war memorial. A G6 if memory serves correctly.

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Hey Tully, got pics or links?

BTW, although it's been a while, when I see your name on a thread in GD I still get the impression it's been locked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 12:39 PM
Since we are on the topic of 109's and what's left today, I'll post this link. It's not much but some stuff is interesting.

http://www.taphilo.com/photo/pictures/BF109/index.shtml

Fritz

NorrisMcWhirter
07-16-2005, 01:02 PM
Hi,

That's a shame. Hopefully, it can be repaired relatively quickly as these seem to be a lot rarer than other flying warbirds.

On that link, there is a picture of a 109 with "Bf 109E nose showing the hub 30mm cannon The Germans devel..." next to it. I wasn't aware that 109E's could carry 2x20mm in the wings and 1x30mm in the nose...

Was this a retrofit to older aircraft or just a mistake?

Ta,
Norris

Enforcer572005
07-16-2005, 01:23 PM
the E could moutn a 20mm in the nose, bt it rarely done due to the wieght.

was the crashed bird a G, or what? most of the few 109s, even on static display, are buchons. i know a canadian bought teh hulrricane and the 109e that were for sale a couple of yrs ago in calif.

i have no problem with flying original planes, if there are a few of them in existance. to fly an original 109, regardless of pilot experience, is not wise, as a landing accident is inevitable due to the landing gear. authentic 109s should only be flown a few times after restoration (maybe once) and then maintained inside on display. this happens to all of them, even the Buchons. thats why so many of those spanish jobs were floating around for yrs, but so few are flying now...just too dangerous to land.

flakwagen
07-16-2005, 02:08 PM
Here is an article about BF109-G6 Red 7. At least I think it is the same Red 7:

http://www.saflyermag.co.za/warbirds/bf109.html

Apparently it was built from a Buchon airframe. The engine was an authentic DB605, but the whole thing was cobbled together from parts one man accumulated over time. The loss isn't as bad as it could be, but it is still bad.

Kocur_
07-16-2005, 02:20 PM
That "E" was E-2 with armament like E-3 i.e 2 x7,92mm MG17 + 2 20mm MG FF in wings plus 20mm Mauser C3L/30 (different from MG FF, very heavy 180kg!)firing through the hub. Short series or, much more probably, only 3 planes were built.
Until late all E's had this hub suggesting there is a weapon behind it, but thats only memento after B armed with 3 x 7,92 MG17.

Crimea_River
07-16-2005, 02:34 PM
A real shame this is. Interesting how the 109's notoriety for poor ground handling characteristics is plaguing these latest examples. I believe Black 6 suffered a similar fate.

Hopefully we'll see this one rebuilt and other flying examples live a longer life.

Slater_51st
07-16-2005, 02:38 PM
Speaking of 109s, I get to see this one very soon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.taphilo.com/photo/pictures/Me109-G10.jpg

Grue_
07-16-2005, 03:23 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst, thankfully the pilot is unscathed albeit hungover and it might be possible to rebuild her.

Red 7 had no WWII history but could still wow the crowds at air shows starved of German warbirds.

There's a flyable 109E in Canada that actually took part in the BoB and must be the most valuable German WWII aircraft left.

Picture at this link

http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/friendlyfoesniagara/de...dnm=2b62.jpg&.src=ph (http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/friendlyfoesniagara/detail?.dir=9902&amp;.dnm=2b62.jpg&amp;.src=ph)

Tully__
07-16-2005, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Hey Tully, got pics or links?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pics may come soon. I plan to visit again in the near future.

Autralian War Memorial (http://www.awm.gov.au/)

PBNA-Boosher
07-16-2005, 08:37 PM
NOOOOO!

I'm glad the pilot made it out alive, but I hope the plane can be re-built and continue to be flown.

GT182
07-16-2005, 08:54 PM
here's more on Rote 7... Sorry I did see this post of the crash by JG52Uther and started a new one ... which I've deleted. I kept what I posted and added it here.

The only flying Bf190/G4, Rote 7, has crashed in Germany on it's return from a Paris airshow back to Oppenheim. The pilot is ok but she's a mess. It's also doubtful she will be rebuilt as the 4 owners had no insurance. Est. cost to rebuild, 1,000,000 Euros.

Pictures of the crash. http://www.nonstopnews.borgmeier-media.de/meldung.php?ID=2470&JG=0&sst=2470 (http://www.nonstopnews.borgmeier-media.de/meldung.php?ID=2470&amp;JG=0&amp;sst=2470)
Jusr click on the picture to see more.

Video of her back in May 2005 at the grass field at Oppenheim. http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=3671
You can download the video... on the right side of page is the link.

Enforcer572005
07-16-2005, 09:11 PM
that 109E was featured in airclssics magazine a whle back. i believe the owner had won some kind of lottery and was a ww2 enthusiast so he bought both of them. if that thing is flown regularly, it WILL wind up like ALL the other flyable 109s. ive been photographing these birds at airshows for over 2 decades,and ive kept up with this movement since i saw the "battle of britain" as kid 36 yrs ago, and its inevitable. only the buchons should be flown, not a historically important one like the originals. its not like p51s where theres about 100 flying, or hurricanes with thier stable wide landing gear.

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
that 109E was featured in airclssics magazine a whle back. i believe the owner had won some kind of lottery and was a ww2 enthusiast so he bought both of them. if that thing is flown regularly, it WILL wind up like ALL the other flyable 109s. ive been photographing these birds at airshows for over 2 decades,and ive kept up with this movement since i saw the "battle of britain" as kid 36 yrs ago, and its inevitable. only the buchons should be flown, not a historically important one like the originals. its not like p51s where theres about 100 flying, or hurricanes with thier stable wide landing gear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the game my favorite 109 is the G2. In reality, it's the Emil series. Something I find strange is the fact that no one cares about the Buchon, including myself. It has historical value and is older than the other series. The Buchon was the foundation for the 109's and proven in combat.

Although I know this, I still care little about the Buchon. Shame , shame, shame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Fritz

LStarosta
07-16-2005, 09:53 PM
More proof that the 109 is a mediocre aircraft.

Enforcer572005
07-16-2005, 09:58 PM
well Fritz,now im a little confused. the buchon was the spanish version produced after the war with a merlin engine. i dont think the buchon ever saw actual combat to my knowledge.i could be wrong of course.

its not that i dont care about the buchons, i love the things. as an airshow photo enthusiast id love to see a buchon with an origional DB engine. but as we see here, its bad enough to see one of those get wrecked. its especially bad with the originals, like black 6, the F that had seen combat in n.africa. it should hve been flown a few times for photos and at a couple of major airshows, then just pulled out on ground display or slow taxi runs by the crowds. the us navy doesnt enter the USS constitution in too many regattas, even if the only original piece is probably the spikes and the guns. just too unique and valuable. that E in the above photos just shouldnt be risked that much.

VW-IceFire
07-16-2005, 10:10 PM
As much as it is sad to loose a flying warbird or have one damaged...I've been watching these things fly since I was 4 years old.

The value of history, experience, and awe that these birds in the air present is very important to me. There can be nothing that replaces my memories of the beautiful Lancaster bomber flying over my head with its 4 engines rumbling along or the Firefly doing a fast pass with its Griffon engine cooking up a storm.

The sound, the sight...I value these memories and experiences. So in my mind, there can be nothing better than to restore some examples to flying condition...put them in their element. Where they were meant to be.

Hopefully, Red 7 will fly again one day. If they can't, then hopefully it will be restored to static display at the very least.

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 10:26 PM
Ha ha ha, who is Col "Kit" Carson? Did anyone read what what he said in an interview in the link I posted at the top of the page?

I'm feeling a little sarcastic today.

KC says "Cancel the camouflage paint and go to smooth bare metal. Besides the weight, about 50 pounds, the grain size is too large when it dries and it causes turbulent friction over the entire airplane surface. That may take a phone call to the brass. They're emotional about paint jobs. "Image," you know.

Me says " Great idea Kit, that way we can utilize the sun to ensure no pilot looses his formation. Also, in between combat sorties the pilots can take the time to relax and polish their planes."

KC says "Modify the cockpit canopy. Remove the inverted bathtub that's on there now and modify as necessary to fit the Me-209-VI canopy. That's the airplane that set the world speed record in 1939."

Me says "Another great idea! They had more aerodynamic but replaced them with the "inverted bathtubs" starting with the Emils. The excuse was protection for the pilots from a headon attack. Lame excuse, pilots are a dime a dozen."

KC "Get rid of the wing slats. Lock them closed and hand fit a strip, upper and lower surface, that will close the sheet metal gaps between the slat and wing structure. That gap causes the outboard 15 feet of each wing to be totally turbulent."

Me says " Wow Kit! You da man! Stall fighting was only a theory and never happened in reality."

KC says "As aerodynamic compensation for locking the slats, setup jigs and fixtures on the assembly line to put in 2 degrees of geometric twist from the root to tip, known as "washout."

Me says "Sure, Hitler could instruct B√¬∂ring and Girbles to call the Allies and put a pause on the war long enough to retrain the workers and set up a new wing assembly line."

KC says "Modify coolant scoop inlet fairings. The square corners that are there now induce an unnecessary amount of drag. Also lower the inlet 1 to 2 inches below wing surface to get it out of the turbulence of the wing surface."

Me says "Totally agree. Um, were there inlets behind or above the wings?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Kit says "Install complete wheel well fairings that cover the openings after the gear is retracted."

Me says "Sure, and to make sure snow doesn't build up between the wheel and fairing and freeze solid as a rock at 5000 meters, we'll change all the wheels from lightweight spoke moulded rims to to something smooth and heavier. Even if they did freeze up, 109's are the easiest to land."

KC says "Retract tail wheel."

Me says " http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Kit, Tom says it's been done."

Kit says "All of the above could have been done in 30 days but it wasn't. I don't know why. Someone would have to ask Willy...it's for him to say."

Me says " http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif you go Kit!"

This was not meant as an insult to Col. Carson but it really annoys me when the experts(assumption based on the fact he was interviewed by a aircraft magazine) speak sometimes. I have no idea of who he is but being that I am by far no expert, why should I find what he says to be silly and uneducated? Have I misunderstood what he was saying? This is by no means sarcasm but I have more faith in the experts in this forum.

This is exactly why I take "the experts"(such as Carson) opinions and testimonies with a few grains of salt.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-16-2005, 10:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
More proof that the 109 is a mediocre aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got a license LStar? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fishery Officer Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GT182
07-17-2005, 08:33 AM
VW-IceFire, it's sad when any of these old warbirds are lost. No matter which side they were on.

VFS-214_Hawk
07-17-2005, 08:41 AM
Can someone translate that into southern redneck english? The pilot was landing and the landing gear did what? The pilot then did what? Then the airplane groundlooped?

Ruy Horta
07-17-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick_Toznost:
"The pilot is intact", that's a relief. I love the German language, so literal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the german language, since the original text describes the pilot as being "unhurt", it is a crappy translation...

Ruy Horta
07-17-2005, 09:52 AM
Black 6 was an emergency landing, almost a crash landing...not a botched up landing.

FliegerAas
07-17-2005, 11:17 AM
Seven years and 30 000 hours of work gone... It's doubtable that it will fly again... oh noooohooo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

VW-IceFire
07-17-2005, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GT182:
VW-IceFire, it's sad when any of these old warbirds are lost. No matter which side they were on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Definately...

Bearcat99
07-17-2005, 06:46 PM
Thats a drag..... I hate to see stuff like this.... I didnt read the whole thread... was the pilot ok?

Enforcer572005
07-17-2005, 07:00 PM
yeah, the pilot was "intact", as the Germans put it. He was pretty lucky i guess.

in that photo you posted at kermits museum, is the Mossie there, or is it still in oshkosh? and im wondering if he rebuilt the grumman duck after the hurricane tore the place up he was formerly at...i got some great shots of it at titusville.

blakduk
07-17-2005, 07:25 PM
Shame to see such priceless aircraft being damaged, but its inevitable when they get flown. Good to see the pilot was unscathed.
As for the argument over 'what is genuine versus a replica'- it reminds me of the story of my Grandfather's axe.
'Its had 2 new heads and 10 new handles- best axe i've ever had. They dont make 'em like that anymore' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jumoschwanz
07-17-2005, 08:33 PM
Fly them until they are all wrecked. You can always take what is left and patch it together into a non-flying display.

I know a guy that has an antique motorcycle that is irreplaceable, he still races it! If he blows the engine and throws it down the track, then put it into a museum, you don't have to have a plane flyable, or a motorcycle running to be a static display.

Jumoschwanz

Gibbage1
07-17-2005, 10:55 PM
Thankfully it was just a 109 that crashed. Im glad the pilot is OK.

In recent years, they seem to be rather prone to landing up in grassy fields....

Pirschjaeger
07-17-2005, 11:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Thankfully it was just a 109 that crashed. Im glad the pilot is OK.

In recent years, they seem to be rather prone to landing up in grassy fields.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Consider it a fresh example for the DM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-17-2005, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
yeah, the pilot was "intact", as the Germans put it. He was pretty lucky i guess.

in that photo you posted at kermits museum, is the Mossie there, or is it still in oshkosh? and im wondering if he rebuilt the grumman duck after the hurricane tore the place up he was formerly at...i got some great shots of it at titusville. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was "unharmed", as the Germans put it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

TAGERT.
07-17-2005, 11:17 PM
I dont know.. the pics actully dont look that bad! I have seen worse at chino that ended up flying again.. It might take 10 years to do it.. but most of it looks intact.. it is in better shape that glaser girl was and she is flying now

Abbuzze
07-18-2005, 01:40 AM
Yes it‚¬īs real pity!
It seem they want to repair it again, I just hope this old guys live long enough to finish their work. The 69 year old pilot who crashed was the mechanic of the team.

hmm, 33% of all flyable 109 are down again. Just two left http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LeadSpitter_
07-18-2005, 02:39 AM
Im very glad the pilots ok, but...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/white7.gif

Grue_
07-18-2005, 02:46 AM
Fool

AerialTarget
07-18-2005, 03:05 AM
While I'm no Me-109 fanatic, this is still a great loss, in particular for the owners. Can you imagine their sorrow? They must be heartbroken. I would have shed many tears had I been one of the owners. Not only have they lost their baby, but they do not have the money to fix it or replace it with something else. I feel so badly for them, even more than for others who lose their warbirds in such accidents. These men sound like they could afford such a loss even less than most.

Xnomad
07-18-2005, 04:54 AM
wow there are some real morons on these boards. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
How can you delight in an historical object being destroyed? Simpletons!

JG53_Goetz
07-18-2005, 07:35 AM
yeah, some morons here have kind of humour which is totally stupid and waste....but you could not expect any other comments by some guys here...

Pirschjaeger
07-18-2005, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53_Goetz:
yeah, some morons here have kind of humour which is totally stupid and waste....but you could not expect any other comments by some guys here... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you guyz are referring to my post then you took it out of context. Gibbage is a modellor and fisherman and what I wrote was sarcasm aimed at him and his comment. His fishing isn't as good as his moddeling but obviuosly he still catches a few. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Abbuzze
07-18-2005, 09:27 AM
More pictures from the crashed 109:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-uebersicht/ueberl...gabe.php?flugzeug=83 (http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-uebersicht/ueberlebende-ausgabe.php?flugzeug=83)

JG7_Rall
07-18-2005, 09:41 AM
Rall, no name calling please.

3 days for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ivan.

Hoarmurath
07-18-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Thankfully it was just a 109 that crashed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why i'm not surprised

LStarosta
07-18-2005, 01:44 PM
I could not have phrased that more poetically, Nate.

LStarosta
07-18-2005, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
More proof that the 109 is a mediocre aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got a license LStar? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fishery Officer Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naw, sorry officer, seems I forgot it. The fish aren't biting much anyway. Perhaps I lost.... that loving feeling... whooooaaa

Stackhouse25th
07-18-2005, 02:29 PM
doesnt surprise me at all...109's are pretty picky planes.

Slater_51st
07-18-2005, 03:18 PM
Every time someone laughs at a warbird's destruction, God kills a kitten....

Think about it....


S! Slater

VFS-214_Hawk
07-18-2005, 03:30 PM
They restore, rebuild airplanes that come up out of the water and you guys thgink that is unrepairable? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bring it to the USA, we can fix it!

LStarosta
07-18-2005, 03:32 PM
Nate, me and our Sherpa found an La-7 in a Russian lake last summer while boogey boarding and we put it back together in two weeks. Fact.

JG7_Rall
07-18-2005, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Nate, me and our Sherpa found an La-7 in a Russian lake last summer while boogey boarding and we put it back together in two weeks. Fact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


We made the sherpa drag it a few hundred miles back to civilization as well. Did you happen to tip him, Luke?

LStarosta
07-18-2005, 10:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif



No, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2005, 09:28 PM
if there is enough servicable parts (or semi servicable parts), there is a thing called reverse-engineering, the costs would be
1. Material (correct metals) (correct ams metal numbers of db 600 series engines)
2. Labor (people who have time and knowledge of reverse engeneering)

Hanglands
05-15-2007, 03:10 PM
A slight BUMP here (almost two years!)

But, I've heard that this aircraft is almost in a 'nearly' airworthy condition again. Is this true? I dont know where to look for details.

Anybody enlighten me?

Regards

EFG_beber
05-15-2007, 03:19 PM
http://shop.me-air-company.de/index.php?cPath=2_4

Hanglands
05-15-2007, 03:24 PM
I couldnt have asked for more, EFG_beber.

Excellent link.

Thank you.

Regards.

Tromplamort
05-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Let's hope we will see her soon to her normal appearance.
I took this photo at the Fertť-Allais 2005 airshow. Weather was ugly, pilots of these unique warbirds didn't lack of courage that day...
http://www.tromplamort.france-simulation.com/Fert%e9-Allais-2005/Photo-138.jpg

Vike
05-15-2007, 05:07 PM
Great news and great photos! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@+

Hanglands
05-15-2007, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tromplamort:
Let's hope we will see her soon to her normal appearance.
I took this photo at the Fertť-Allais 2005 airshow. Weather was ugly, pilots of these unique warbirds didn't lack of courage that day...
http://www.tromplamort.france-simulation.com/Fert%e9-Allais-2005/Photo-138.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, theres a desktop pic if ever I saw one! Cheers!

JG52Uther
05-15-2007, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the update! Saw her fly at Oppenheim in 2005,and hope to see here again soon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Airmail109
05-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Why not stuff these 109s full of real time flight data software and a computerized landing aid. You know, engine telemetry and all that so you could have prior warning that the engine was going to go tits up...even if the signs were only minute im sure with a good trained eye and good software you could pick up any slight anomalies....hell some of this new software automatically senses problems itself....you could fit a *****ing betty and a small diagnostics lcd into the cockpit.

Honest to god, why dont people do the sane thing.

If engineers can get an 800cc 4 stroke engine to do 18,000 rpm and make 230bhp, using electronics to fine tune and keep an eye on the insanely tight parameters needed to attain such power yet with reliability...it would be perfectly possible to do the same with a 20 odd liter engine

Viper2005_
05-15-2007, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't fly it then it might as well be so much furniture IMO.

If you replaced the world's static museum exhibits with well-made plastic models then the vast majority of the viewing public would be none the wiser since they're not allowed to touch!

IMO real airframes should be flown whenever possible.

If they run out of safe life and are no longer airworthy then they should be used as instructional airframes.

If they are no practical use for real instruction, then they should be sent to museums. Ideally one side should be sectioned so that people can see what's going on under the skin (which is often more interesting than what you can see on the outside).

It's actually relatively easy and cheap to repair damaged aeroplanes to satisfactory condition for static display such that again the majority of the general public would never know the difference. As such I don't see any reason to ground otherwise airworthy aeroplanes for their historical value.

It is in the nature of things that aeroplanes crash from time to time. Life is full of risks, and this must be accepted. Park an aeroplane in a museum for long enough and the chances are that entropy will catch up with it in the end. For example the museum might burn down, or be destroyed by an earthquake or a storm.

Nothing lasts forever, no matter how careful you are; no matter how healthy your lifestyle the chances are extremely high that you will die eventually.

Personally, I would rather enjoy life first. Likewise, let's fly these aeroplanes and get some joy out of them before their inevitable demise.

Charos
05-16-2007, 02:59 AM
AWM BF109 (http://www.awm.gov.au/striking/planes/german/bf109.asp)

"Colour scheme This is the last example in the world still displaying its original camouflage and markings: a 1944 day-fighter scheme, with variations resulting from service repairs and replacements.

Some more pics. (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcambg_2.htm#W%20N%20r%20.%20%20%201%206%203%20 8%202%204%20%20%20%20P%20h%20o%20t%20o%20%20%20G%2 0a%20l%20l%20e%20r%20y)

WOLFMondo
05-16-2007, 05:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As long as we have a company like Flugwerk GmBH building flyable exact replicas there is no reason in the world, other than stupidity, to be flying something so rare. How many rare birds do we lose each year? The list of survivors is shrinking very quickly. This is rediculous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't fly it then it might as well be so much furniture IMO.

If you replaced the world's static museum exhibits with well-made plastic models then the vast majority of the viewing public would be none the wiser since they're not allowed to touch!

IMO real airframes should be flown whenever possible.

If they run out of safe life and are no longer airworthy then they should be used as instructional airframes.

If they are no practical use for real instruction, then they should be sent to museums. Ideally one side should be sectioned so that people can see what's going on under the skin (which is often more interesting than what you can see on the outside).

It's actually relatively easy and cheap to repair damaged aeroplanes to satisfactory condition for static display such that again the majority of the general public would never know the difference. As such I don't see any reason to ground otherwise airworthy aeroplanes for their historical value.

It is in the nature of things that aeroplanes crash from time to time. Life is full of risks, and this must be accepted. Park an aeroplane in a museum for long enough and the chances are that entropy will catch up with it in the end. For example the museum might burn down, or be destroyed by an earthquake or a storm.

Nothing lasts forever, no matter how careful you are; no matter how healthy your lifestyle the chances are extremely high that you will die eventually.

Personally, I would rather enjoy life first. Likewise, let's fly these aeroplanes and get some joy out of them before their inevitable demise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like my kids one day to see these planes whole, rather than burnt out wrecks. It would be a shame in 50 years that no more of these 'real' planes exist because they've all be crashed and wrecked beyond repair by some rich guy with a hard on for flying WW2 planes. Bits of history are lost flying these aircraft.

We can now make 100% replicas. Fly those instead.

Bewolf
05-16-2007, 05:38 AM
There are enough static planes on display already. And I prefer one flying 109 or any other warbird to 100 on static display. The sound of the engine, the turbo whistle when it comes roaming at you, this all gives you a vast more intense feeling then a plane sitting on the ground like lame duck.

If one crashes, it is comparably easy to put it back together to show in on static display. Even a pure mock up would suffice, as the casual viewer does not know any differences at all.

Planes on static display are like corpses, or lions in cages, bare of life and vibration.

P.S. What some ppl commented here is probably the ugliest I have ever seen. Flamewars and personal dislikes are one thing. But to diss and denounce a very rare warbird that crashed is just so low. Whatever respect was left, for contributions to the community/IL2 or productive posts in the past, gone with the wind.
No matter if for fishing attempts or not.

Viper2005_
05-16-2007, 05:41 AM
(Airworthy) Replica airframes are easy. (Airworthy) Replica engines OTOH are not...

But this doesn't really matter in a museum since most of the time the viewing public isn't ever going to look "under the hood". As I said, if you replaced all the museum aircraft with plastic models (as was done with quite a few RAF gate guards some time ago), the viewing public wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

If OTOH you fly a 109 with a real DB605, it's very easy for anybody with eyes and ears to tell the difference between it and a Buchon...

Far better to fly the real aeroplanes and put the replicas in the museums, since aeroplanes are designed to be flown, whilst replicas are designed to be looked at.

If you crash a few, then usually if nothing else they can be repaired to static display condition for exhibition in a museum, or else used as instructional airframes to train the maintenance staff. Again, the viewing public can't tell the difference between air-worthy repairs and repairs that simply look ok from behind the barriers.

JG52Uther
05-16-2007, 06:16 AM
I tell you once you have been priveledged enough to see one of these babies fly in real life then it would be a tradgedy to see it static in a museum.

WOLFMondo
05-16-2007, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:

If you crash a few, then usually if nothing else they can be repaired to static display condition for exhibition in a museum, or else used as instructional airframes to train the maintenance staff. Again, the viewing public can't tell the difference between air-worthy repairs and repairs that simply look ok from behind the barriers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THats in an ideal world. There have been plenty of fatal crashes where the aircraft has been totally destroyed, sometimes extremely rare aircraft such as 109's, Fireflys and P38's. I've seen these planes fly and I agree, its a spectacle to behold but there also historical artifacts and should be preserved.

I've seen a couple of those plastic replicas as well, they look plastic and nothing like the real thing.