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TheGozr
02-07-2005, 12:59 AM
The P51 D20 turn better on combat flat than the Yak 3.. ??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Il2 compare take the data from the game.

How is it possible.?

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/il2/images/comparey3_p51d20.jpg

Am i missing something?

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 12:59 AM
The P51 D20 turn better on combat flat than the Yak 3.. ??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Il2 compare take the data from the game.

How is it possible.?

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/il2/images/comparey3_p51d20.jpg

Am i missing something?

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 01:05 AM
I'm looking closer and trying La 7 vs P51. the la 7 win a bit on turn while the P51 smoke the la7 in many other places...???
And with the spits... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Try it.

WUAF_Toad
02-07-2005, 01:31 AM
Try looking or try flying?

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 01:49 AM
Yak9U vs P51

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/il2/images/comparey9u_p51d20.jpg


Geeezz!

Marc-David
02-07-2005, 02:00 AM
Which IL2 compare Version is it? I'm still with 2.3, for I coulnd't find a working DL-link for 2.5 . And in 2.3, it might be different than in 2.5...

Yours, MD

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 02:03 AM
Yes 2.5

Both D9 44 and P51D are killer... on low dogfighting

Badsight.
02-07-2005, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
How is it possible.?

Am i missing something? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
so , the Yak-3 should out-turn the Mustang at high speed ?

& ill take you on , you have the Mustang , ill fly the La http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hetzer_II
02-07-2005, 02:35 AM
Badsight.. look at the graphs.. were talking about speeds of about 300km/h.
A speed where a mustang should simply have no chance against a yak,109,spit....

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 02:56 AM
Yes Hetzer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is not data from the net or any other source but just from the sim it self.
and it's weird... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Hetzer_II
02-07-2005, 03:03 AM
take a look at p39 and 63... and you will get another shock...

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 03:19 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Hetzer_II
02-07-2005, 04:52 AM
call an ambulance quiekly....

Lazy312
02-07-2005, 05:32 AM
IL2Compare is a great utility but forget its graphs about turning..

Sig.Hirsch
02-07-2005, 06:44 AM
Il-2 Compare is a very good utility and is very accurate for speeds , a bit less for turnings because it doesn't show Sustained turn rates , and even less for climb rates (u should make average climb rates ) .

What Hetzer says , i do it personnally online , offline , with P-51 25% fuel , i turn with 109 G2 easy with combat flaps , with Yak-9 , like it is said in Il-2 Compare ( graphs are with 0% fuel i think in IL-2 compare ) .

Ingame P-51 D20 na is a very good dogfighter , in real life anybody honest knows it wasn't , but ...
so is the game .

VW-IceFire
02-07-2005, 07:45 AM
Where's the latest version of IL2 compare? I'd love to have a look.

Remember that the energy bleed thing isn't mentioned here at all. I'd never want to take a Yak-3 and a P-51 into a turn battle (as the P-51). The Yak-3 is going to win by a huge margin....but for a short snap turn the Mustang can probably follow enough to land some hits.

Also, why wouldn't the Mustang be a "average to good" dogfighter. Of the three main USAAF fighters, the Mustang is probably the best at dogfighting...its smaller, and when the fuel is depleted of a decent weight, and its very aerodynamic so I'm sure that counts for something. Nobody in this game should "dogfight" in a Mustang per say but I'm not affraid to mix it up in a closer battle as long as I'm on the attack with E advantage...on E disadvantage the 109 and Yaks win...every time.

lrrp22
02-07-2005, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
Ingame P-51 D20 na is a very good dogfighter , in real life anybody honest knows it wasn't , but ...
so is the game . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know you don't like the Mustang Sig, but don't let that cloud your objectivity. The Mustang should turn well at any speed with combat flaps, especially at 25% fuel- the trade-off lies in the fact that the use of flaps will bleed-off a large amount of speed and energy. Any sustained use of flaps without a height or speed advantage will leave the Mustang slow where it has a hard time regaining energy and ailerons become very sluggish.

If used wisely the combat, and even take-off flap setting should substantially increase the Mustang's turn rate for half a turn or more. If you insist an seeing the Mustang as nothing but a sleeker looking Thunderbolt then your probably going to find yourself hitting the silk.

On the other hand, go ahead and try and fight a Yak-3 in a low speed sutained turn fight in a P-51 and see what happens...

p1ngu666
02-07-2005, 10:04 AM
il2c shows sustained turns, if u did circles at say 300kph, then u should get what it says in il2c

HayateAce
02-07-2005, 11:31 AM
Quote: "...some garbage posted by Sig Hursh."

I know you are an accomplished US plane-hater sig, but this is over the top. Tell u what, get urself a P51 and I'll man the Yak3 and meet you at 100 meters.

Just let me know which portion of your ship you want shot off first. Might I suggest I take off your right aileron and then we move inboard. But mind that you don't snap the thing upside down in plunge into the dirt before I even get a chance to begin shooting. Oleg has the P51 nice and twitchy, per the luftwhiners' requests.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sig.Hirsch
02-07-2005, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
il2c shows sustained turns, if u did circles at say 300kph, then u should get what it says in il2c <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think because you never turn in flat turns in action http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

if you turn for instance with a spitVIII and you in G6 at 300 km/h at the beggining and you trust IL-2 compare , you'll think it's even but it's not when it lasts .
of course it's more or less reliable , but those turnrates are with 0% fuel and flat turns (you always are in a shallow dive or climb in turns) , so IL-2 compare often get you wrong if you believe it 100% for turnrates .

Hayatkid-hater ... thought you'd have more inspiration , who talked about Yak 3 ??

Sig.Hirsch
02-07-2005, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know you don't like the Mustang Sig <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the P-51 B and C lrrp22
the US planes i like the most are P-40 and P-47 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i fly them only alone in dogfight though cause my squad is Axis .

cheers ,

lrrp22
02-07-2005, 12:45 PM
Me too! Don't know why, but I'll take a B/C with a Malcolm Hood over a D anyday! I just wish that the B/C's in AEP/PF weren't limited to late '43/early '44 performance.

The B/C's should have some definite advantages over the D, but in-game they are completely outclassed by the bubbletop. If there is a difference in handling, I've missed it.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know you don't like the Mustang Sig <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the P-51 B and C lrrp22
the US planes i like the most are P-40 and P-47 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i fly them only alone in dogfight though cause my squad is Axis .

cheers , <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

faustnik
02-07-2005, 01:52 PM
Gozr,

I've flown both sides of the Dora/P-51 fight and can say that there is no way the P-51's relative turn is as good as that chart indicates. Maybe it is under a certain set of conditions but, not for general combat. The Mustang bleeds E as bad as any Fw190 so, you can't sustain a turning advantage very long. Once speeds get low, the P-51 flies like cr4p.

LeadSpitter_
02-07-2005, 02:40 PM
ask ross_youss on the accuracy of il2compair and for what version that data is from http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

you can find the latest here
http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#018


pf 3.02 was the latest data for the most current version of il2compair and here is the charts from it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/compair.jpg

what you have there is a really old version. To find 3.04 data you will need some of the devicelink programs such as udpspeed devicelink wrapper udpgraph and other udp tools.

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 02:41 PM
Even look at the P51 vs Yak9U The P51 get the advantage all the way.. That it's ameasing isn't it?

LeadSpitter_
02-07-2005, 03:02 PM
* Considerable effort was made to reduce production defects in the Yak-9M. The managers responsible had been personally and angrily reprimanded to their faces by Stalin himself when they informed him of problems with the delamination of the wing skinning of the Yak-9: "Oh, but do you know that only the most perfidious enemy could do such a thing?! Producing aircraft at the plant that proved unfit for service at the Front! The enemy could not damage us so cruelly! He could invent nothing worse! This is work for Hitler!"

Stalin did not make empty threats, and he rarely made a threat twice. Resolution of the defects became a top priority. They were fixed, and then Yakovlev and production engineers went on to add improvements. The result was the "Yak-9U", where "U" stood for "Uluchshenny / Improved". The Yak-9U was difficult to tell from the Yak-9M from the outside, but it incorporated a wide range of small changes to improve performance and survivability.

The Yak-9U was initially fitted with the Klimov M-107 engine, but problems with the engine led to the loss of the prototype in late February 1943. As a result, the Yak-9U retained the M-105PF engine. It also featured two UB 12.7 millimeter guns, as well as the ShVAK 20 millimeter cannon. The Yak-9U was regarded as equivalent in performance and handling to its American counterpart, the P-51D Mustang.

Over 3,900 Yak-9Us were built, the majority of them before the end of the war. Over 280 similar "Yak-9UTs" were built as well, the only real difference being that the design permitted the installation of a heavier cannon on the production line, a concept derived from the experimental "Yak-9TK" discussed below.

The last version of the Yak piston fighters was the "Yak-9P", which was introduced into service in 1946. The Yak-9P featured all metal construction, except for the earliest production, which retained wooden elements in the fuselage. It had four wing fuel tanks and various niceties such as a radio compass; an "identification friend or foe (IFF)" unit; a gun camera; and "glow in the dark" cockpit indicators.

------------------

Dont forget in 3.04 the mustang has been toned down alot, get those udp programs and look how much.

Maple_Tiger
02-07-2005, 03:11 PM
Sounds like someone was shot down by a good pilot, and he is having trouble dealing with it.

HayateAce
02-07-2005, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
... thought you'd have more inspiration , who talked about Yak 3 ?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, 3 or 4 people in this thread. Just look up M8. Regardless, I'll take a Yak1b, 9U or whatever. The P51 will be lunch, as it would have been in real life.

Up to proper speed, is a diff story. I've shot down plenty of Yaks with the Mustang just by using their poor elevators against them.

Don't AceHate Sig.

TheGozr
02-07-2005, 03:25 PM
Let be more on combat flap since this is the setting for dogfight at ~300 km/h

http://www.french.themotorhead.com/il2/images/comparey3_p51d20.jpg


We talked about this earlier..

The second generation of Yak-9 fighters began with the Yak-9U prototype, which first flew in December 1943. The "U" stood for Uluchshennyi ("improved" in Russian). The Yak-9U in fact represented a major redesign. It incorporated an improved airframe with a new wing of all metal construction, which had a greater span and area. It was intended to power the improved fighter with the Klimov VK-107A engine of 1,650 hp. Due to production difficulties, the M-105PF-2 engine was substituted until the Fall of 1944, when the VK-107A finally became available in quantity. The Yak-9U became the definitive interceptor/fighter version of the Yak-9 series.

Now if the Yak9-U has the older engine why the UT have the same performances? since it's a 1945.
so is the yak9U and Yak9UT performance is the 107 or 105 ?

I'm preparing all the data possible to compare .

p1ngu666
02-07-2005, 06:09 PM
we hardly ever do turns to stay at 300kph or whatever, mostly its to bring us round to a point, say 1km away.

besides they've toned down all the russian aircraft, il2 flies like a hunk of junk now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VW-IceFire
02-07-2005, 06:11 PM
I fly both the Yak-9U and Mustang on a semi-regular basis...they are both good fun to fly. In a sustain horizontal turn the Mustang is going to loose....BADLY.

Those charts have some meaning to them but not the whole picture.

Badsight.
02-07-2005, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
Yes Hetzer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is not data from the net or any other source but just from the sim it self.
and it's weird... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
its not wierd , its AI

you take the Mustang & ill take the Yak-3

you wont get one single win if you turn with me

EFG_beber
02-08-2005, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
Il-2 Compare is a very good utility and is very accurate for speeds , a bit less for turnings because it doesn't show Sustained turn rates , and even less for climb rates (u should make average climb rates ) .

What Hetzer says , i do it personnally online , offline , with P-51 25% fuel , i turn with 109 G2 easy with combat flaps , with Yak-9 , like it is said in Il-2 Compare ( graphs are with 0% fuel i think in IL-2 compare ) .

Ingame P-51 D20 na is a very good dogfighter , in real life anybody honest knows it wasn't , but ...
so is the game . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Il-2 compare give the instantaneous turn rate and with combat flaps p51d is good but the mustang will quickly loss is speed against 109 because laminar profiles and flaps aren't good in turn because you lose a lot of speed. In the 109 the slat and it's special flaps help the plane in hard turn.
In a sustained turn the light 109 is better and outurn the heavly mustang easly.

If you are ok we will test the 109 and the mustang online on dog 1vs1. I will take the 109G6(to easy with the g2) and you will take the Mustang.
Ok?
I'm waiting you on HL(EFG_beber).

p1ngu666
02-08-2005, 07:12 AM
whats special about 109 flaps?

dont think ive seen even kurfy saying how great the flaps where http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Sig.Hirsch
02-08-2005, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Il-2 compare give the instantaneous turn rate and with combat flaps p51d is good but the mustang will quickly loss is speed against 109 because laminar profiles and flaps aren't good in turn because you lose a lot of speed. In the 109 the slat and it's special flaps help the plane in hard turn.
In a sustained turn the light 109 is better and outurn the heavly mustang easly.

If you are ok we will test the 109 and the mustang online on dog 1vs1. I will take the 109G6(to easy with the g2) and you will take the Mustang.
Ok?
I'm waiting you on HL(EFG_beber). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ok http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No prob EFG_Beber , i 'm on hL awaiting you , i'm Flieger .
one condition though : we make a track and post it here , i think you will agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i take P-5120Na and you take 109 G2 and we make 1 VS 1 ok ?

see ya there ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EFG_beber
02-08-2005, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
whats special about 109 flaps?

dont think ive seen even kurfy saying how great the flaps where http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excuse me but my english is bad.
I want to say that the flaps on the 109 are continus to the wing and it's give better characteristic.
In the P-51 the flaps are under the wings, not continus when extended.

PE_Sushi
02-08-2005, 07:25 AM
I'm not sure at all 9U was just a 9M with the "skin problem" solved
I'll check

EFG_beber
02-08-2005, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Il-2 compare give the instantaneous turn rate and with combat flaps p51d is good but the mustang will quickly loss is speed against 109 because laminar profiles and flaps aren't good in turn because you lose a lot of speed. In the 109 the slat and it's special flaps help the plane in hard turn.
In a sustained turn the light 109 is better and outurn the heavly mustang easly.

If you are ok we will test the 109 and the mustang online on dog 1vs1. I will take the 109G6(to easy with the g2) and you will take the Mustang.
Ok?
I'm waiting you on HL(EFG_beber). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ok http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No prob EFG_Beber , i 'm on hL awaiting you , i'm Flieger .
one condition though : we make a track and post it here , i think you will agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i take P-5120Na and you take 109 G2 and we make 1 VS 1 ok ?

see ya there ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok

The190Flyer
02-08-2005, 07:33 AM
I think the P-51 is great! For some time a while ago I was flying the P-51 almost exclusively, but interests have turned to 109's and 190's again! P-51, 190 and 109 are the only planes I fly. Need to get some stick time in a 51 again, haven't flown it in awhile. But with a 51 compared to a Yak-9U, in the hands of an expierenced Mustang driver, I would say that it shouldn't have a very hard time downing a Yak as long as it meets the criteria of E fighting, Speed, altitude etc... I'd rather fly a Mustang than a Yak!!!

S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

a.k.a. BIFF P-51 PILOT in ubi.com lobbies

Sig.Hirsch
02-08-2005, 10:13 AM
So you see EFG_Beber that i was right , you couldn't outturn me at slow speed with your G6 75% fuel , and me in P-51 25 % fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree that below 270 kph , my pony was awful in turning , but it's also far much heavier plane . if you fly in turns with higher speeds in 51 , those planes are equal , P-51 is an excellent dogfighter ingame (not only boom and zoomer ) , now you know it .

With your G2 it was drawish , thx to your superior rollrate and below 250 kph better handling of the 109 i admit , you could equalize thx to it , but please admit that the P-51 could follow you in your two first tight turns almost always , and all this below 320 kph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
anyway very nice fun to fly with you mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(track sent to the address u gave me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

lrrp22
02-08-2005, 10:55 AM
The 109 and Mustang had similar flaps in design, if not dimension. The P-51's flaps were designed as combat maneuvering flaps from the beginning- the 109's were not. The Mustang's hydraulic flaps were easily deployed with a lever while the 109's required many turns of a mechanical wheel.

Were you referring to the 109's leading edge slats, as oppossed to its flaps?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EFG_beber:

Excuse me but my english is bad.
I want to say that the flaps on the 109 are continus to the wing and it's give better characteristic.
In the P-51 the flaps are under the wings, not continus when extended. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lrrp22
02-08-2005, 10:59 AM
Hey Hirsch,

Your description sounds just about right for the P-51's and 109's relative dog-fighting capabilities- especially with the Mustang at 25% fuel. Are you satisfied that its in-game performance is generally accurate?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
So you see EFG_Beber that i was right , you couldn't outturn me at slow speed with your G6 75% fuel , and me in P-51 25 % fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree that below 270 kph , my pony was awful in turning , but it's also far much heavier plane . if you fly in turns with higher speeds in 51 , those planes are equal , P-51 is an excellent dogfighter ingame (not only boom and zoomer ) , now you know it .

With your G2 it was drawish , thx to your superior rollrate and below 250 kph better handling of the 109 i admit , you could equalize thx to it , but please admit that the P-51 could follow you in your two first tight turns almost always , and all this below 320 kph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
anyway very nice fun to fly with you mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(track sent to the address u gave me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EFG_beber
02-08-2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
The 109 and Mustang had similar flaps in design, if not dimension. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excuse me, i mistake with an another plane.

EFG_beber
02-08-2005, 11:59 AM
in the test with Sig.Hirsch the 109g6 lose a lot of speed and when the turn lasts i can't outturn the mustang but at very low speed the 109 rollrate is better and i could make cissor but it's dangerous when the mustang is behind.
For G2 , the bf is slightly better in turnrate , but the mustang still dangerous with the browning range.
tks for the flight Sig.Hirsch i learn about the mustang.

TheGozr
02-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Thx guys it's great to test and have some repports.

robban75
02-08-2005, 02:25 PM
There were issues with the P-51 turning too well some patches ago, but that has been fixed IMO. In Olegs words, the P-51 should turn better than the Fw 190, and turn worse than than a Corsair. We can all agree that this is perfectly portrayed in-game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif