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Philipscdrw
05-31-2007, 09:51 AM
Aren't there more than one kind of 'manual prop-pitch' in Il-2?

There's real manual prop-pitch, where the slider sets the actual angle of the propellor blades. This makes the prop-pitch work like gears in a car.

There's a constant-speed propellor, where the angle of the blades are adjusted automatically to keep the propellor speed always the same. The 'prop-pitch' control sets the speed you want the propellor to keep, instead of directly adjusting the blade angles.

Then there's the completely automatic systems as used in the Fw190 and other aircraft, where the throttle lever also sets the prop speed - I think!

Now, which aircraft uses which system, and when you put the aircraft into 'manual prop pitch' mode, what is the 'prop pitch' slider actually doing? Because it certainly isn't directly adjusting the prop pitch!

And how exactly do the automatic propulsion management systems in the Fw190, Bf109, late Spitfires, etc work?

Philipscdrw
05-31-2007, 09:51 AM
Aren't there more than one kind of 'manual prop-pitch' in Il-2?

There's real manual prop-pitch, where the slider sets the actual angle of the propellor blades. This makes the prop-pitch work like gears in a car.

There's a constant-speed propellor, where the angle of the blades are adjusted automatically to keep the propellor speed always the same. The 'prop-pitch' control sets the speed you want the propellor to keep, instead of directly adjusting the blade angles.

Then there's the completely automatic systems as used in the Fw190 and other aircraft, where the throttle lever also sets the prop speed - I think!

Now, which aircraft uses which system, and when you put the aircraft into 'manual prop pitch' mode, what is the 'prop pitch' slider actually doing? Because it certainly isn't directly adjusting the prop pitch!

And how exactly do the automatic propulsion management systems in the Fw190, Bf109, late Spitfires, etc work?

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 10:43 AM
for all piston engined planes except:
Ki-27
J8A
TB-3s
Fw190 in auto mode
Spitfire IX and VIII in auto mode
Bf109, Bf110,Do335,Ta152C in manual and auto mode:
the prop pitch in game is controlling the engine revolutions - so 100% pitch here means you allow the egnine to run at max rpm if enough throttle/power is available.
in combat you shoud fly alwasys with 100%.
to lower your pitch is actually only necesarry if you want realy fly slow (that your comrades or the AI can close formation or you want safe fuel) , than you have to reduce the pitch like the throttle. same % rate or pitch 10% more than the throttle % is a good solution.

also using full throttle and useing only 90-95% pitch can reduce the overhat chance - usefull in some planes like the Tempest or the Corsair and Hellcat. that doesnt harm your speed/climb much, if at all !

very few planes in game are overrev in a power dive (full power, 100% pitch) - IIRC that are the Cr.42, G.50, Mc.200, Fw190A/F in manual mode, Fw190D/Ta152H, the Brewsters(not sure about that , may have changed in a patch)


Fw190 in auto mode
Spitfire IX and VIII in auto mode
Bf109, Bf110,Do335,Ta152C in auto mode:
have a one lever system, if you control the throttle, the pitch is automaticly also controled


Bf109, Bf110,Do335,Ta152C in manual mode:
thats totaly different, here you control the propeller pitch direclty ! no automatik will keep the rpm in a "good" condition. it brings you no benefit to use this manual settings anymore (there was a time ). so, dont bother it

the
Ki-27
J8A
TB-3s:
have fixed propellers, so nothing to control there

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

to lower your pitch is actually only necesarry if you want realy fly slow (that your comrades or the AI can close formation or you want safe fuel) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isnt necessarily true. Alot of planes will only achieve maximum speed at lowered RPM settings. Thus reducing prop RPM doesnt mean that you will fly slow. What increasing the prop angle (lowering the rpm) does is increasing the thrust while allowing you to reduce the throttle in order to save fuel. Rule of thumb as actually to have the prop pitch set to the same value as your throttle for cruising.

Using low throttle settings and 100% prop pitch on CSP equipped aircraft actually helps in slowing you down as the prop now acts as an airbrake (like downshifting in a car). Using high pitch settings and high throttle settings will help you climb and accelerate. Acceleration only to a certain point however...as the faster the plane goes, the more the prop will need to have higher degree of pitch angle (low rpms) so it doesnt hold you back.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:
.......................as the faster the plane goes, the more the prop will need to have higher degree of pitch angle (low rpms) so it doesnt hold you back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, but isnt this exactly the thing that the "automatic" controler system (called governor or something like that , spelling ?!) of a CSP is actually doing ?!

and i know that in game not all things, CEM related, are working as they should - having at least the "manual prop pitch" exploit (for CSP planes) in my minds. well , its still a game this software.

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 01:53 PM
The faster the plane goes, the more the prop will want to spin faster. So the governor adjusts pitch to keep the rpm at the setting you put it at. By doing that it acts as a brake and holds the plane back.

This is in real life though, I dont know about in game.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 02:02 PM
but isnt the governor so calibrated that at full pitch , as its is called, the engine rpms are at the engine's best poweroutput ?
and why you want than reduce the poweroutput if you want max speed. with the given bladeangle it should be the best available thrust. nothing would "hold" you back ?!?!

sure, only if the CSP is so calibrated that at full pitch the engine would run at its optimum rpm !! if the engine will "overrev" , the pitch have to be reduced to the best rated rpm.

BSS_Sniper
05-31-2007, 02:15 PM
CEM in here is not even remotely close to anything RL so I wouldn't really bother with it concerning PP. The only good it does you is to help with over heating. As far as going from auto PP to man in the planes that have it, the only use is as an exploit and I wish it would get fixed.

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
but isnt the governor so calibrated that at full pitch , as its is called, the engine rpms are at the engine's best poweroutput ?
and why you want than reduce the poweroutput if you want max speed. with the given bladeangle it should be the best available thrust. nothing would "hold" you back ?!?!

sure, only if the CSP is so calibrated that at full pitch the engine would run at its optimum rpm !! if the engine will "overrev" , the pitch have to be reduced to the best rated rpm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, its meant to give you maximum rpm, which isnt necessarily maximum power output. I think you have a few things confused here. The governor isnt calibrated to anything except the propeller's maximum rated rpm.

Its holding you back because there are 2 wind vectors hitting a propeller blade. Propeller blade theory is far too long and complex to explain in one thread. All I can tell you right now is that your logic is not flawed, but under the laws of physics and aerodynamics, you dont seem to have a complete understanding of how propellers and governor units work. You also seem to be mixing up CSP with fully automatic pitch like on german machines.

All I can suggest is to experiment with different power settings in the game.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 02:25 PM
at least the proppitch exploit that could be used in planes with DB engine (like 109) in the past was fixed in one patch.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:

No, its meant to give you maximum rpm, which isnt necessarily maximum power output. I think you have a few things confused here. The governor isnt calibrated to anything except the propeller's maximum rated rpm.

............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

than, as i said, its clear than with the max "pitch" a plane does NOT reach its max speed.

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 02:31 PM
Uh..I dont seem to be following. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:
Uh..I dont seem to be following. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

most propably language barrier - as im not a native english speaker http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 02:34 PM
Neither am I http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 02:44 PM
even more complicated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Philipscdrw
05-31-2007, 10:15 PM
Cheers Frankyboy, that's quite useful.

So am I right in saying: on all aircraft which don't have fixed props or one-lever power control setups, and on Fw190s in 'manual prop pitch' mode, the prop is constant-speed. And the control which causes "prop pitch: x%" messages to appear on the screen actually controls the prop speed. (If that's the case then the Fw 'manual prop pitch' mode should be renamed 'manual prop speed'. And the 'prop pitch' should be renamed 'prop speed' through the whole user-interface.)

For the Messerschmidts, Do335 and Ta152, 'manual prop pitch' does exactly that, and the 'prop pitch' control does what it says it does and directly changes the angle of the prop blades.

Ach. Jets are so much simpler! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I really hope 1C will be on the ball with this for BoB. At that time there were fixed-pitch, variable-pitch, and constant-speed propellors in service and entering service, and early auto-speed units. I really think these props need to be accurately simulated and also documented so we know how they work and how to use them best...

I read an interesting account of an early auto-speed unit fitted in a Bf109E of some variety or another - a pilot flying with a combat squadron got to test it, and found it wouldn't let him exceed 300kmph. I forget the details though - does anyone have a record of that story? Kurfurst must have heard of it!

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2007, 08:48 AM
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/AutopitchJG53.jpg

SlickStick
06-01-2007, 10:36 AM
As I almost always fly Spitfires, I always use manual prop pitch on one of my rotaries for the VIIIs and IXs especially. When fighting, climbing, it's at 100%.

I lower pitch to about 90% to gain a little more speed on the deck and in a dive. I'll also drop pitch to zero quickly in a dogfight, to drop engine revs faster, and then right back to 100% to try and get an opponent to overshoot me when he's being a bit overzealous.

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2007, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
.......
I lower pitch to about 90% to gain a little more speed on the deck ............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im curious, what is the speed difference at SL with 90% pitch and 100% pitch than ??

SlickStick
06-01-2007, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
.......
I lower pitch to about 90% to gain a little more speed on the deck ............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im curious, what is the speed difference at SL with 90% pitch and 100% pitch than ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll look again, but IIRC it's around 10km/h or so. It also seems to allow faster dive acceleration, as by lowering pitch, I'm reducing the resistance to air flow, no?

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
I'll look again, but IIRC it's around 10km/h or so. It also seems to allow faster dive acceleration, as by lowering pitch, I'm reducing the resistance to air flow, no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><span class="ev_code_yellow">Got Track? </span>

Or is it safe to assume that this, like your theories of cheating, is based on nothing but a feeling?

SlickStick
06-01-2007, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Got Track?

Or is it safe to assume that this, like your theories of cheating, is based on nothing but a feeling?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you're just mad about the way I spanked you with that "Oleg email" thing and poking fun at your useless testing, but please stop stalking me in every thread and trying to ruin what people are trying to discuss.

Thanks.

I provide insight, others can test it if they like, or not. Their choice.

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Got Track?

Or is it safe to assume that this, like your theories of cheating, is based on nothing but a feeling?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you're just mad about the way I spanked you with that "Oleg email" thing and poking fun at your useless testing, but please stop stalking me in every thread and trying to ruin what people are trying to discuss.

Thanks.

I provide insight, others can test it if they like, or not. Their choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is this your way of saying..

NO I don't have any proof and YES it is just based on a feeling?

SlickStick
06-01-2007, 11:11 AM
I'll send Franky a track via PM, if he wishes.

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2007, 11:30 AM
to be honest, i always doubted that (in game !!) the planes (with CSP) are faster with reduced pitch than at max pitch. leaving beside every possible expoit here !!

just made a fast test with A-20C and a Pe-2 - to have the level stabilizer to avaid any human influence on the stick...........

both of them gets and can hold their max speed only with 100% pitch..........

so im still curious - and im still doubting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - so yes, gimme a pm for that track please

SlickStick
06-01-2007, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
to be honest, i always doubted that (in game !!) the planes (with CSP) are faster with reduced pitch than at max pitch. leaving beside every possible expoit here !!

just made a fast test with A-20C and a Pe-2 - to have the level stabilizer to avaid any human influence on the stick...........

both of them gets and can hold their max speed only with 100% pitch..........

so im still curious - and im still doubting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - so yes, gimme a pm for that track please </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try a Mk. VIII Spit and then a 25lbs. I won't be at my game until tonight after 10PM EST, but will drop you a track ASAP thereafter.

Daiichidoku
06-01-2007, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
your useless testing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
I provide http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/mh5240.jpg , others can test it if they like, or not. Their choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fixed

JG14_Josf
06-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Setting aside the game for a moment it may be useful to identify what actually happens in real life.

The 109 and 190, according to evidence that can be presented, used a system where the throttle lever and prop RPM control lever was one lever and that was an automated control of both manifold pressure and engine rpm. Move the stick forward and manifold pressure increases while engine rpm increases. Move the stick back and manifold pressure decreases while engine rpm decreases.

Note: The game is backwards if lower engine RPM settings increase prop windmill effect (the plane decelerates faster at lower prop rpm settings) because windmill effect should increase as the prop angle of attack moves to a fine setting where the most windmill effect (most drag and fastest rate of deceleration for overshoot maneuvers or even maneuvers to get inside a hard turning opponent), the most windmill effect, occurs when the prop angle of attack is fully flat (fine). Therefore; adjusting the automated prop (engine) rpm governor (with the prop lever) to 0% (actually to lower rpm) will cause the governor to switch the prop drive to a higher (course) angle of attack and thereby decrease drag. The prop angle of attack is governed to a higher angle of attack as the governor is adjusting in the effort to decrease engine rpm (the governor assumes that the engine is driving the prop and the governor does not discriminate or know' that the air is driving the prop during wind milling). Lowering the control for prop rpm is asking for a higher prop pitch whenever the rpm is above the rpm setting requested'. [editing]

This may be confusing and this was confusing to me and my brother as we tested this effect with his Beech Bonanza. Lowering the prop governor rpm setting does, in fact, decrease drag when the plane is being decelerated by air resistance that does, in fact, drive the engine (while the throttle is closed).

If the game slows down the plane more when adjusting the manual pro setting to 0%, then, the game is backwards. The only time that would happen in real life is when the force of wind milling (air driving the prop) was sufficient to make the prop rpm lower than the prop setting. Can you see this? [more editing]

A. The most drag on a wind milling prop will occur at the finest pitch.
B. The least drag on a wind milling prop will occur at the full course pitch.
C. A prop that is feathered (stopped) does not wind mill (it is stopped).
D. Feather is FULL COURSE and minimum drag.
E. The prop governor moves the prop angle to course if the actual rpm is more than the rpm setting (the requested rpm). [more editing = easy for me to get this backwards] Course pitch creates more load on the engine = slows the engine down = brings the rpm from higher to lower = too much rpm is loaded up with course pitch to bring rpm back to the requested rpm.
F. The prop governor moves the prop angle to fine if the actual rpm is less than the rpm setting (the requested rpm). Less is more (more editing]
G. If the throttle is closed, then, the prop will be difficult to turn at any rpm above idle.
H. If the plane is flying fast and the throttle is closed, then, the finest prop angle of attack will make the engine turn fastest.
I. If the plane is flying fast and the throttle is closed, then, the most course angle of attack on the prop will make the engine turn slowest (or not at all if the angle of attack reaches feather).
J. If the plane is flying fast and the throttle is closed and the setting on the prop lever is set to the slowest rpm setting, then, the governor will make the prop angle go to fine only if the engine (and prop) are turning too slow. [thus a need to identify actual flight conditions]

This is confusing.

Picture a plane at full throttle in a dive with the rpm setting set to maximum rpm.

Manifold pressure (boosted) at maximum = 1.42
Rpm at maximum = 2,700

Now close the throttle and leave the rpm setting at 2,700 (something that cannot be done on the real Fw190).

The engine is no longer adding enough power to turn the prop to 2,700 rpm IF the plane is on the ground.

The plane can maintain airspeed in the dive = 700 km/h.

What happens to the manifold pressure?

Note: At this time it is important (to me) to communicate how this theoretical situation is not the same as the flight condition in reality that was conducted by my bother in his Beech Bonanza. This is simply another way of looking at what actually happens under specific flight conditions. The physical occurrences can be measured and confirmed better if the plane has a prop pitch angle dial (the Fw190 and 109 did have one).

The manifold pressure will change as the throttle is closed. It will be less than 1.42 ata.

The rpm governor remains at 100% (something that could not be done with the Fw190 or the 109) which is to say that the pilot continues to select maximum rpm (2700 rpm) because that is where the prop lever remains (at the 2700 rpm setting).

What happens to engine (prop) rpm?

This should be easy to understand. Engine power is no longer turning the prop. Wind power (windmilling) is not the only thing turning the prop (above idle = there remains some fuel and air mixture and spark to keep the engine going at idle).

The engine rpm lowers.

Manifold pressure lowers.

Engine rpm lowers.

The governor was set for 2700 rpm.

Engine rpm lowers.

What happens to prop pitch?

Imagine that the pilot increases the dive angle and the pilot maintains 700 km/h while the throttle is closed (manifold pressure lowers) and while the rpm lowers (not enough power to maintain 2700 rpm).

What happens to prop pitch?

I'll leave this as is because my wife can't stand listening to me type.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I'll leave this as is because my wife can't stand listening to me type.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>She sounds like a smart woman.

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
to be honest, i always doubted that (in game !!) the planes (with CSP) are faster with reduced pitch than at max pitch. leaving beside every possible expoit here !!

just made a fast test with A-20C and a Pe-2 - to have the level stabilizer to avaid any human influence on the stick...........

both of them gets and can hold their max speed only with 100% pitch..........

so im still curious - and im still doubting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - so yes, gimme a pm for that track please </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try a Mk. VIII Spit and then a 25lbs. I won't be at my game until tonight after 10PM EST, but will drop you a track ASAP thereafter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Make it aval to all and I show you how my 'usless' testing proves that your 'FEELING(S)' are wrong.

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
I provide http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/mh5240.jpg , others can test it if they like, or not. Their choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fixed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ROTFL

JG14_Josf
06-01-2007, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">She sounds like a smart woman. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tagert,

Is there no boundary on your troll?

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">She sounds like a smart woman. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tagert,

Is there no boundary on your troll? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Calling your wife smart is a bad thing?

I totally agree with her!

It has to be a anoying sound comming from the room where you do your 'thing'.

JG14_Josf
06-01-2007, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Tagert,

Is there no boundary on your troll? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that the answer is self-evident. I don't think the answer will ever originate from the source. I've been wrong in the past.

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I think that the answer is self-evident. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So?
Did you 'think' I give a rip about what you 'think'?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I don't think </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
the answer will ever originate from the source. I've been wrong in the past. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And the present

JG14_Josf
06-01-2007, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So?
Did you 'think' I give a rip about what you 'think'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tagert (Troll?),

Are you talking to me?

If you quote me and respond to me, then, your 'thinking' (more like conditioned response), is self-evidently evident no matter what spin you put on it.

Now; two obvious paths are before you.

A. Continue trolling.
B. Discuss the topic

If the choice is A then:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

I think what you are doing is called dictation. That makes you something. You volunteer to be that something.

**** tator?

I don't mean to suggest anything that isn't painfully obvious by now. Please do set me straight, or, how about sticking to the topic?

Daiichidoku
06-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Josf, you KNOW trolls need to be fed

why are you giving a smorgasboard(sp?) to TAGERT if you dont like it?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JG14_Josf
06-01-2007, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">why are you giving a smorgasboard(sp?) to TAGERT if you dont like it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daiichidoku,

You may have me confused with someone else; my actions are not dictated by a preference for things that I like - always.

Take the current example for example. I like discussing the prop pitch topic. I do not like having my words distorted as if I need someone to distort my words for me.

Example:

I cut off my post where I'm discussing the topic (prop pitch) and I explain one of the factual reasons why I cut off my post.

Someone else responds by quoting my words. That someone claims to be complimenting my wife. That someone happens to be propagandizing a particularly insidious straw-man whereby the village idiot is me. Am I being too honest or is this particular form of propaganda supposed to exist in our subconscious only?

Allow me to bring you up to date just in case you have failed to get the message.

I am the guy that is too stupid to get it' despite all the sincere efforts expended toward wising me up.

Is that accurate?

So...even my wife is in on the joke get it?

Do you get it?

Now, now, there poor thing, it is time to be sincerely helpful to the poor thing, as sorry as it may be, we are not meaning to be mean, you bring this on yourself, I can help, if you would only listen.

And just how far off topic can this go?

The fact is that no matter how much falsehood anyone throws upon me, as if by saying that I am as you perceive me (negative or positive), I remain myself. I really, if you want to know the truth, am inspired to know why people create these falsehoods. Any hurt feelings in me have long been exhausted to a point of numbness. Insulting me in any way whatsoever is, if I may offer, fruitless. That is my view. If someone receives some benefit at my expense, then, that is unknown from my view. I really do not get it'.

What is the point?

The prop pitch subject, in the other hand, is certainly interesting and worthy of what could become something similar to discussion.

If prop pitch can't be discussed, then, perhaps we can discuss what discussion is exactly.

My suggestion is to get past all the trite innuendo. Are we mature enough to get it'?

AKA_TAGERT
06-01-2007, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Tagert (Troll?), </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Josf (Soon to be single man due to excessive typing on the internet ?),

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Are you talking to me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I am 'typing' to you..

Those voices you hear in your head are not mine!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
If you quote me and respond to me, then, your 'thinking' (more like conditioned response), is self-evidently evident no matter what spin you put on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note I did NOT say 'I' was NOT 'thinking'..

I asked YOU if YOU 'think' I give a rip about YOU 'think'!

Two very different things!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Now; two obvious paths are before you.

A. Continue trolling.
B. Discuss the topic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what part of my 'discussion' with Slick about his 'FEELINGS' that PP makes a difference in level speed do you not understand?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
If the choice is A then:

What we have here is a failure to communicate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just so you know.. I never chose A!

But we do have a failure to communicate!

In that you 'think' that when I say I dont give a rip about what you 'think' means I have not give it any 'thought'

I have, and I concluded that I don't give a rip about what you 'think'

SAVVY?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I think what you are doing is called dictation. That makes you something. You volunteer to be that something.

**** tator? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So?

Did you 'think' I give a rip about what you 'think'?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I don't mean to suggest anything that isn't painfully obvious by now. Please do set me straight, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Set you straight?

DOOOD!

I am only human!

I can not undo here what with a few text message what must have took years of negative environment and conditioning inputs to produce!

IMHO a team effort along with a regiment of medication could NOT make a dent in you let alone set you straight!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
or, how about sticking to the topic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what part of my 'discussion' with Slick about his 'FEELINGS' that PP makes a difference in level speed do you not understand?

crazyivan1970
06-01-2007, 02:14 PM
I`ll make it simple....so all can understand.. here`s the list of options

1) You stop taking swings at each other, get on topic and take your personal feelings to PT
2) You stop taking swings at each other, get on topic and NOT take your personal feelings to PT and keep it to yourselves...

No more options... time to play a little Stalin here. I am not joking by the way, i will ban at will. Many of you already had that experiance, right?

Carry on.

Korolov1986
06-01-2007, 02:19 PM
http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/crazyivan_ban.jpg

Ares_336sqn
06-01-2007, 08:19 PM
What i experience in the game is rapid loss of speed if i set porp pitch to 100% and throttle to 0. Which sounds logical. The prop blades will move to the finest posible pitch to achieve the less rotational drag trying to keep max rpm and therefore present the maximum frontal area towards the forward moving vector of velocity, acting as an airbrake.

I do not get maximium speed in any plane when my prop pitch is at 90% flying low. Is there a plane where the maximum engine output is achieved at less than max RPMs? I have no idea if that could be the case in some planes, but which are those? I do not have the time to check every single one of them, so if anyone knows please, save mt the trouble to check more than 100 planes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

As for diving... That is blurry... I mean, acceleration is achieved by using maximum RPMs. If i dive starting with a low speed, don't i need that? When i gain some speed if i decrease the prop pitch i will get for a short period faster acceleration and after that, i hhave to increase my porop pitch again. This is really blurry too...Any ideas would be greatly welcome!

My take on this (diving), and i could be wrong, is that at first you need to accelerate (high prop pitch settings) then, if you decrease the prop pitch, the blades decrease their frontal area and bite more air passing theit stored kinetic energy due to rotation to extra thrust ( like rowing...). So the planes benefits from both of these. But then, when RPMs go down and the kinetic energy of the prop is gone, you need to increase RPMs again to achieve max power output /speed in a dive... Or is the weight of the plane more important providing forward "thrust" at this point? In game it does not seem to be enough ( to me)... i also need the extra engine thrust.

As for the game vs real life prop pitch use... well, no idea about that.

P.S. Sry for the typos, it is 5 am here, there is a certain amount of alcohol in my blood and every time i tried to correct them, i made them worst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ares_336sqn
06-02-2007, 08:28 AM
Bump..
This was a rare good on topic thread and it will be a shame if it is "killed" by green dogs, free energy and personal issues...

Philipscdrw
06-02-2007, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I`ll make it simple....so all can understand.. here`s the list of options

1) You stop taking swings at each other, get on topic and take your personal feelings to PT
2) You stop taking swings at each other, get on topic and NOT take your personal feelings to PT and keep it to yourselves...

No more options... time to play a little Stalin here. I am not joking by the way, i will ban at will. Many of you already had that experiance, right?

Carry on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you Ivan! What do we do with our impersonal feelings though? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Thinking of prop braking effect, if you cut the throttle and set the prop blades to full fine pitch, could that stall the prop blades? The air is moving over the blade in two directions - from the movement of the aircraft and from the rotation of the propellor. If prop RPM is low so the rotational motion of the prop blade is low, and the airspeed is high, and the blade is 'flat' (in fine pitch), the airflow around the blade will be at a high negative angle of attack, and it could stall.

Eh, I've just described a completely hypothetical situation when you've got a fast aircraft at low prop RPM with a fine-pitch prop. Maybe this happens with Lockheed Constellations halfway across the Atlantic but it's not really useful for this sim. Forget all that...

So there's four things to consider: engine power, prop speed, prop pitch, aircraft speed. These four things tie together somehow to make prop thrust (or braking). I'm getting the feeling I'm trying to reinvent the wheel here though.

By the way, does anyone ever use the low 'prop speed' (aka 'prop pitch') setting in this sim? I mean, below 75%? Except for diving?

Ares_336sqn
06-02-2007, 10:03 AM
I think the rotational speed of the blades should be high enough to keep the blades from stalling.
Can blades stall in real life and can it happen in the game?

Using 0% prop pitch helps a lot when entering a turn instead of decreasing throttle in a lot of planes, like the P51. Planes become less prone to stall, turn faster and loose less speed. But if the engine of the plane can not increase its RPMs fast, like most Russian planes, it takes for ever to build up some horse power again by increasing prop pitch.

A sustained turn and lower prop pitch(like 80%) reducing the snap stall problem is something i am not sure if it is an overall benefit or not, but i use it some times. (like in Yaks).

JG14_Josf
06-02-2007, 11:06 AM
Ares_336sqn wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What i experience in the game is rapid loss of speed if i set porp pitch to 100% and throttle to 0. Which sounds logical. The prop blades will move to the finest posible pitch to achieve the less rotational drag trying to keep max rpm and therefore present the maximum frontal area towards the forward moving vector of velocity, acting as an airbrake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is important to identify specific flight conditions before identifying how the prop governor operates because the prop governor is a simple mechanical device so that part of the puzzle is easy to get right.

Note the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I lower pitch to about 90% to gain a little more speed on the deck and in a dive. I'll also drop pitch to zero quickly in a dogfight, to drop engine revs faster, and then right back to 100% to try and get an opponent to overshoot me when he's being a bit overzealous.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A simple test can confirm what happens online.

Two planes side by side in level flight each player recording a track file.

One pilot pulls only the throttle. The other pilot reduces throttle and prop pitch.

Which one slows down quicker?

Note: The one that slows down quicker can force an overshoot or get inside the opponent's turn (in reality).

In reality, according to the tests done by my brother in his Beech Bonanza, 100% prop pitch does, in fact, flatten prop pitch during a controlled decent as the governor tries to maintain high rpm while the throttle is closed. This does, in fact, create more drag because the prop angle of attack is severe relative to the air flow driving the engine (wind milling). If the prop control (a push/pull cable in the Bonanza) is set to low rpm (0% prop pitch) during the same controlled descent, then, the plane speeds up because the governor is then pitching the blades to a course angle of attack in the effort to decrease rpm (rpm that is being increased by windmilling), which, decreases drag because the prop blades are less angled against the relative flow of air mass.

I have yet to see this test performed in the real plane. I trust that my brother has it right. He can be meticulous. He can also kick my but; older brother.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do not get maximium speed in any plane when my prop pitch is at 90% flying low. Is there a plane where the maximum engine output is achieved at less than max RPMs? I have no idea if that could be the case in some planes, but which are those? I do not have the time to check every single one of them, so if anyone knows please, save mt the trouble to check more than 100 planes... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes no sense in reality. If an engine develops maximum power at 2700 rpm, then, the engine, by definition, develops less power at 2650 rpm. I tested this once a long time ago and clearly the plane accelerated forward when moving the prop pitch lever up to 100% and clearly (back when I did this test) the plane decelerated backward when moving the prop pitch lever lower than 100%.

Is it possible to confuse horsepower and torque? An engine may not (as far as my current understanding perceives) develop maximum torque at the same rpm as the same engine develops maximum horsepower. If I am not mistaken, as far as moving air mass with propellers, the power required is measured as horsepower and not torque. In other words; moving air mass does not require a lot of mass and inertia behind the force, rather, the air mass is moved by velocity and inertia if that makes any sense.

A modern windmill is an example of torque power where a very large prop is being turned by a large mass of air.

http://www.repower5m.com/bilder_news/021004//5m_02.jpg

A modern jet engine is a small diameter prop turning very, very, fast.

If I am not making any sense, then, perhaps someone can.

If the game is slowing planes down faster while the prop is set to low rpm, then, the game is backwards. If the game is accelerating planes to higher speeds when the engine is set to a lower rpm (below maximum power), then, the game is backwards no?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for diving... That is blurry... I mean, acceleration is achieved by using maximum RPMs. If i dive starting with a low speed, don't i need that? When i gain some speed if i decrease the prop pitch i will get for a short period faster acceleration and after that, i hhave to increase my porop pitch again. This is really blurry too...Any ideas would be greatly welcome! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought about this a lot because I like to think about things like this so my communications may help (if only by eliminating one of the things you can discard).

In level flight, at maximum top speed, the prop is no longer accelerating the plane. Under the same conditions of flight the air mass is not wind milling the prop; in other words: the air mass is not accelerating the plane. At top speed in level flight the plane is not being accelerated forward or back (and not up or down).

At top speed in level flight (by definition) the plane cannot accelerate any faster. Nothing will accelerate the plane any faster at top speed in level flight.

What happens when the plane is pitched forward one degree down?

The plane has new top speed and the new top speed is higher. What happens to the prop pitch angle from the old top speed (level flight) to the new top speed (one degree of dive)?

With the above in mind (where the prop pitch must pitch to a higher prop pitch as the plane gains speed in the dive) consider what happens if the plane pitches vertically down (straight down)?

Assume, for this case, that the plane will not self-destruct for any reason whatsoever in the vertical dive.

Assume that this plane will reach a top speed (terminal velocity) in the vertical dive.

Picture the plane at top speed in the vertical dive with the engine at full power.

What happens if the pilot pulls the power?

A. The plane speeds up to a faster top speed.
B. The plane slows down to a lower top speed.
C. The plane remains at the same top speed.

What happens to prop pitch?

When the plane is no longer accelerating the plane is adding exactly as much force forward as the air mass is adding force backwards. The plane is not wind milling. The plane is not thrusting. If the plane slows down for any reason there can be only two possible reasons (make that three).

A. Gravity
B. Contact with air mass
C. Earth and things attached to earth
D. Other flying objects

Make it four things.

How about 5; an act of god?

How about this:

The same plane at terminal velocity in a power dive going straight down:

The pilot opens a device that dumps all cylinder compression into the atmosphere.

Does the plane speed up?

To answer that question it is necessary to know where the prop pitch angle of attack is at top speed in that dive to terminal velocity. If the prop pitch angle of attack is not at the farthest angle of attack toward feather or full course, then, the prop pitch angle of attack could be moved (automatically or manually) to full feather.

If the total drag of the plane at full power is more than the total drag of the plane while there is no engine power with the prop at feather, then, the plane will speed up when the compression is dumped and the prop is feathered.

With no compression in the engine and a feathered prop, then, the prop can't turn by engine power or the power of air mass contacting the prop blades.

What this angle of view may illuminate is the fact that, during a power dive, the prop angle of attack will reach a limit. At some point the relative velocity of air mass will be too fast for the limits of the prop and engine speed.

Note: As the plane speeds up the prop angle of attack becomes course which will eventually reach full course which is also called feather'.

Feather is when the prop angle of attack is straight into the relative wind.

Just before feather' (the physical stop or limit of prop pitch movement if the plane has no feather) the wind will be driving the engine faster than the engine can turn.

Example:

Spit2Manual (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/Spit2Manual.pdf)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">16.
Airscrew controls The control lever (12) for the de Havilland 20 degree or Rotol 35 degree constant speed airscrew has a Positive Coarse Pitch position which is obtained in the extreme aft position of the control lever, when the airscrew blades are held at their maximum coarse pitch angles and the airscrew function as a fixed airscrew.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(iv) Other limitations:
Diving:
Maximum R.P.M.: 3,600
3,000 R.P.M. may be exceeded only for 20 seconds, with the throttle not less than one-third open.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At high speed the air mass will drive the engine even at the maximum course prop pitch setting.

Closing the throttle will increase prop drag and slow the plane down because the engine acts like an air compressor or vacuum pump. If the pilot could release all compression in the engine, then, the prop would windmill faster and the plane would speed up if no other action was taken in such a dive at the angle of dive where the plane is reaching the limits of engine/prop rpm.

The pilot could let go of the stick (if the trim tab bent and didn't trim out the tendency to pitch up) which would slow the plane down as the plane expended energy lifting the plane against gravity (relatively speaking) thus relieving the tendency to over-rev the prop/engine by wind milling.

Opening the throttle will reduce prop drag and speed the plane up (past 3,600 rpm) which, if I'm not mistaken, will tend to break things that are designed to go 3,000 rpm.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My take on this (diving), and i could be wrong, is that at first you need to accelerate (high prop pitch settings) then, if you decrease the prop pitch, the blades decrease their frontal area and bite more air passing theit stored kinetic energy due to rotation to extra thrust ( like rowing...). So the planes benefits from both of these. But then, when RPMs go down and the kinetic energy of the prop is gone, you need to increase RPMs again to achieve max power output /speed in a dive... Or is the weight of the plane more important providing forward "thrust" at this point? In game it does not seem to be enough ( to me)... i also need the extra engine thrust. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It must be understood, in my opinion, that the RPM governor is a very simple device. The operation of the RPM governor cannot be mistaken as it is a very simple device. It can only do a few things.

A. When the actual engine rpm exceeds the rpm setting, then, the prop angle of attack moves toward a course pitch.
B. When the actual engine rpm is lower than the rpm setting, then, the prop angle of attack moves toward a fine pitch.
C. When the actual engine rpm is the rpm setting, then, the prop angle of attack does not change.

The governor doesn't know, or care, if the engine is speeding up or slowing down the rpm above or below the rpm setting.

The governor doesn't know, or care, if the relative flow or air mass (wind milling) is speeding up or slowing down the rpm above or below the rpm setting.

The governor can only do what the governor is designed to do which are those three things above.

The actual prop blade angle has a high and low limit. Once the governor moves the prop to the limit there isn't any more that the governor can do so, at the limit, the rpm may go faster than the rpm setting or slower than the rpm setting.

Example:

In a power dive the governor will continue to move the prop blade to a higher (course) angle of attack when wind milling adds to engine thrust to turn the prop blade above the rpm setting. Once the prop blade angle of attack reaches the physical stop (or feather) the engine rpm will have no limit. If the pilot selects 3,000 rpm, then, the power dive will cause the engine to rev at 3,600 rpm because the prop cannot pitch to a higher pitch.

The only option at that point for the pilot is to pull out of the dive or over rev the engine.

The pilot can try closing the throttle and that will only cause the engine to work harder as a vacuum pump. The plane may slow down.

Read the warning:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(iv) Other limitations:
Diving:
Maximum R.P.M.: 3,600
3,000 R.P.M. may be exceeded only for 20 seconds, with the throttle not less than one-third open.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What happens is the pilot closes the throttle less than one-third open?

The answer isn't: the prop blades move to a higher or lower pitch. In a dive to an air speed where wind milling can cause the engine rpm to exceed the engine rpm limit the prop pitch is already at the highest pitch possible. Lowering the pitch will only increase the force turning the prop too fast. Raising the pitch is not possible; the prop is already at the physical stop.

Note: The engine will encounter air resistance when trying to turn a prop that is at the full course stop.

Example:

I've heard (but not actually seen) someone describe what happens when a plane is stopped on the runway with the engine at high rpm and suddenly the pilot moves the prop blade angle to full course manually. According to the description; the engine and prop nearly vibrates off the plane as the force of air resistance against the sideways prop blades stall the engine; overpowering it.

From this angle:

Try starting an engine stopped on the runway with the prop blades set to full course pitch (sideways to their rotation direction).

Try to stop a prop from turning while the prop is at fill fine during flight with the engine shut off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">P.S. Sry for the typos, it is 5 am here, there is a certain amount of alcohol in my blood and every time i tried to correct them, i made them worst </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can quote my Uncle:

"Practice makes worse." Thomas Freegard Kelley 1979 Belmar New Jersey

No time editing at this time. Read at your own risk.