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View Full Version : Squad's using historical squadron designations.



Bamatt
05-23-2004, 01:24 PM
We all know several online squads use the designation's of historical squadrons, which is fine and understandable. Now, the other day I was flying around and there was a fella by the name of Jv44_Galland. He was an obvious fan of the real life pilot. Now another fella from the online JV44 squad was grilling this guy, telling him he had to drop the Jv44 from his name because he didnt get permission from the squad. I would like to know what methods these JV44 members used to get permission for THEM to use the squadron name. Were they assigned to the squad by Georing? A couple of other squad members (JG27, III something or other) obviously diagreed with me. So, please tell me, how is what you guys are doing any different from what this fella was doing? One squad memeber tried telling me its because JV44 was an established online squad. The squad was established in WWII, and you cant claim ownership over it. If you dont want someone to use the same designation as you, come up with something unique.

Bamatt
05-23-2004, 01:24 PM
We all know several online squads use the designation's of historical squadrons, which is fine and understandable. Now, the other day I was flying around and there was a fella by the name of Jv44_Galland. He was an obvious fan of the real life pilot. Now another fella from the online JV44 squad was grilling this guy, telling him he had to drop the Jv44 from his name because he didnt get permission from the squad. I would like to know what methods these JV44 members used to get permission for THEM to use the squadron name. Were they assigned to the squad by Georing? A couple of other squad members (JG27, III something or other) obviously diagreed with me. So, please tell me, how is what you guys are doing any different from what this fella was doing? One squad memeber tried telling me its because JV44 was an established online squad. The squad was established in WWII, and you cant claim ownership over it. If you dont want someone to use the same designation as you, come up with something unique.

HH Quazi
05-23-2004, 02:23 PM
I'll tell you why the lad shouldn't use an online squadrons' designation. Respect, plain and simple. This virtual online world hasn't been around since WWII, but it has been around for many years. And alot of these squadrons have been around for quite sometime too. And if for no other reason, respect for the effort and longevity of each and every member of all virtual online squads should be sufficient reason enough not to use an online squadrons' designation for personal playtime. Of course, this is my personal, humbled opinion.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/QuasiPOWsmall.jpg

JG52_wunsch
05-23-2004, 02:27 PM
if it was a jv44 server,it was bad taste if not
he should be free to use what ever he wants,cheers.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

willyvic
05-23-2004, 02:30 PM
It's all part of the virtual pilots online etiquette. You will find that many "squadrons" were established when virtual combat in the skies took flight. Some are registered and sanctioned by the particular airforce/squadron they represent. Some are registered online as is the case in CFS 1 with the RAF, RCAF, DD, etc. It is a matter of respect that a nonmember does not "fly the colors" of an established virtual squad without being a member first. Most knowledgable simmers are aware of this and abide by the unwritten rule. Some, however, do not respect the ways of virtual flight and ignore it. It is up to you whether you respect the established norm or not.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/mig3u.jpg

VW-IceFire
05-23-2004, 02:40 PM
My "tag" on HyperLobby is [412]IceFire which represents my current favorite Canadian squadron during WWII. However, I did this tag this way so as not to confuse with the well organized and established #401RCAF_ (and other numbers as well) squadron that commonly flies.

The idea is to not be confused with representing something that you are not part of. I would never, even if it was my favorite, wear a JV44 tag (unless I was with the squad) and if I did then I'd ensure that other symbols/characters were present to distinguish myself from another squadron (and I don't consider case changes to be sufficient).

Courtesy, respect, clarity...good reasons to distinguish yourself online.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Curly_109
05-23-2004, 03:43 PM
You know what, I really see no problem here... That fellow is not obligated to follow their rules.
Use whatever name u wan't. That's my opinion. If someone have problem with it, do not fly in his squad. Simply as that.

MEGILE
05-23-2004, 03:54 PM
I could see their point if he was flying on that squads server, so that people would not be confused to if he was part of that squadron.
Outside of their server... he can call himself what he wants. The squad can whine and cry and throw their toys out of the pram.. but who cares. A "squad" is just a bunch of collective guys playing a game.
They don't own that name at all even if they are a "prestigous" (sp?) online squadron.

Permission my a$$, those mofos dont own the rights, and hell they aren't even the real squadron themselves.

[/rant]

VMF513_Viper
05-23-2004, 04:05 PM
Hello,

My Two cents on this entire thread is quite simple. Every player has the right to fly under whatever name they wish. As was said earlier it isan unwritten rule and respectful to the squadrons already using the tag. If it was written exactly as that squadron has it then I would have aporblem with it.

Case in point, 2 squadrons that I know of call themselves "The Blacksheep Squadron" Hence different designations. One of the squadrons grilled the one having the same title but different designations. Well it all fair, the squadron that was grilling the other squadron became irate and started to harrass the other. Needless to say if you have a squadron or designation that is different I dont see an issue with it.

See with my squadron, I have the name all the images and all the content on my website copyrighted. If someone uses anything from there they will be in a world of trouble. On top of that my squadron has been recognized by the US Marines.

Interesting enough, there is something out there called pilot and online etiquette. If they dont abide by it then thats no fault on the original squadron of that designation.

It is all common sense guys.

S! Viper

<table style="filter:glow(color=Navy Blue, strength=3"><tr><td> <B><font color=white>Viper<BR>Commanding Officer VMF-513
http://www.vmf513.com
UBI Movie Maker Forum Moderator
Virtual War Cinema Admin
http://www.virtualwarcinema.com
"Chance Favors The Prepared Mind"
<BR></font></td></tr></table></B>

Diablo310th
05-23-2004, 05:14 PM
I'm a proud member of the 310thVFS. I wear my name and colors proudly and when in "uniform" I repersent my squadron. Anything and everything I do reflects on the squad. For this reason as well as respect I would never wear anyone elses colors.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/Diablos20Sig.jpg

ZG77_Lignite
05-23-2004, 05:48 PM
Actually I believe there may be more than 1 squad that DO 'own' the rights to their squad name. Now who would go to the trouble of legal litigation over a squad name? I dunno, but there it is.

LEBillfish
05-23-2004, 06:45 PM
IMLTHO........

ALthough not a member of a Squadron here I was when flying RedBaron3d a member of the 124th, Lafayette Escadrille or LE or LE~ for short.

What many fail to forget (both those not in Squadrons and sadly some within)...Is that the actions of the one with that squadron designation reflects on the rest within it. So say Bob of the 439th BooHaHa's or 439th~BH~Bob acts the fool or rude, it is very possible one of his squadronmates may have to endure not being allowed in a server due to his actions or at the least having to deal with the complaints.

However, and we all have seen it....what happens when Tom not of the 439th takes on that callsign as though he is? Well that squadron justified or not is now having to deal with his actions. Worse still, it is MOST often done to do exactly that, simply act up to tarnish the reputation of a squadron even though most may know he is not a member...some do not.

So in the end it boils down to simply courtesy and respect. Someone else has the designation already, so the johnie come lately should either find another, or perhaps if really wanting it look into that squadron to see if they are a match.

Same goes for callsigns....and although HL avoids exact ones....Billfish could be Billfish` could be Billfish_ could be.....etc.

Once more the person if knowing..."most likely though not always"...simply looking to generate a bit of trouble.....As who wants the same callsign as another? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/k2kellyirie/IL2/starnew.txt

Bamatt
05-23-2004, 10:55 PM
All valid points. But, you guys are missing the point I am trying to make. Where did the online squad get THEIR permission to use said designation? What right does this guy have to to tell this pilot that he cant use the same squad name as he is, when niether of them were a part of the actual squadron. I understand what you guys are saying about it being an "established" squad. But its an "established" squad that is using the same designation as a historical squad.


For the record, it was not a JV44 server.

CaptainGelo
05-23-2004, 11:23 PM
wasn't Galland flying in JG26? Gues he's not that big fan of him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

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"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"<----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
05-24-2004, 12:02 AM
When it was on VFC Host i noticed the dialoge too.

Still pretty funny that some think they own the title or something. We had a similar Problem therefore we build a list of our members for all open to look up if in or not. There is no way to prevent other users from taking names they like to take except they are already used .).

As some really care about their reputation www.mircosoft.com (http://www.mircosoft.com) and similar other sites trying to count on typos are nowadays down. Cause too many landed on wrong Site. This is pretty similar to the Logodebate when 2 companies have a almost similar looking Logo.

But the difference is this companies actually own the copyrights to their names. Most likely not much Online Squads have their name under copyright.

However each Time this Guys with similar Tags meet that are actually not from the squad can end up quite bizarre. From Names calling to other things. So its adviseable to avoid trouble by choosing different looking name. When this other Squad is nowhere listet for example on UBI Squadrons list or other lists that are pretty much near to the community zones. They cant exspect to be avoided in the name choice.

At this case look at the Ubi Listing you find already 2 JV44 entries.

Regards,
Hyperion

T_O_A_D
05-24-2004, 12:23 AM
Well he obviously had it first, well before a Jv44 memeber used it anyway.

If I was in the Jv44 I would of aproached him in a freindly manor and tried to recuite him. If that all didn't work I would of placed that name on my web page of None enlisted members flying our name. And note that anything he does good or bad should not be affiliated with the Jv44.

As far as getting permission to use as squad name, there basicly is none. First come first serve.


Then once posted and added to as many list such as on UBI as being a established squad is all you can do. Short the copywrite thing. To much trouble for me to do. Most I'll do is maybey buy a domain name.

We the 131st had a little bump in the road awhile back. We've been around Il2 for some time and then Lomac came around and yes we fly it for fun mostly we don't take it serious at all. But a Janes F-18 squdron moved over into Lomac after it went public and kept running across us. Some of them had a problem with it. But I and thier Co worked out a deal to just link to each other and accnolige that they were in command in Jet sims and we are in the prop sims.

Ended up No big deal. Cause I can't hardly keep up as it is with Il2 stuff let alone a whole different game to boot.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

SKIDRO_79FS
05-24-2004, 12:41 AM
Many of the former pilots I have spoken to find it amazing that we wish to remember their deeds by identifying ourselves as members of their old units. Being an honorary member of the 20th. Fighter Group Association (an honor they gave me for my work in helping preserve their history) I don't hesitate for a second to use anything related to them. It is my way of making sure they are not forgotten.

As for two groups or squadrons that choose to use the same designation, well with the frequent comings and goings of members in any virtual community eventually one or the other will come out on top.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

RdTimeTheCharm
05-24-2004, 04:05 AM
Oh man, i havent counted the times ive shot down all the known aces of ww2 and ww1.
Man... in my career i must have downed 4 separate Richthofens alltogether :P

Its a noob thing and wears off in time. The reason why these starts to appear is that the customer pool for FB Aep is apparently increasing and more and more noobs are entering to the neverending airbattle scenes of virtual ww2.

LEBillfish
05-24-2004, 01:43 PM
As to copyright just like patent isssues (and know I do not "know" the laws simply repeating what I understand).........If someone utilizes or makes something and is the first, and "maintains it"...then they hold the rights though not formally.....

SO in otherwords if Bob invents a name or thing it is his others required to determine if it exists first.....Maintaining it means using it (Bob must use the name not simply shelving it). However in the end, if say Tom can prove he had and maintained the name first, then Bobs rights are lost.

However that is not the point....The point being simply someone respecting the creation of anothers....(in this case making an online squadron or name based historically or not)... Nothing more.

If the owners of the real life units have a problem they are welcome to speak up.......Though that is doubtful.

http://www.geocities.com/k2kellyirie/IL2/starnew.txt

B1izard
05-24-2004, 01:55 PM
What if this person who is not in that specific squadron is just trying to represent a father or grandfather who may have been associated with the real squad in WWII. Are you going to tell him sorry you can't use that because you are not a memeber of our squad?

CO_Eagle_31stFG
05-24-2004, 02:10 PM
What it boils down to is online squads use Identifiers or "tags" as we know them as squad uniforms. We developed these tags to let everyone know who is part of what squad.
The reason he would have been asked to drop the tag was simply because the squads online developed these tags and we do not want someone who is not part of our squads to be flying in rooms with our tags because they are recognised as being a part of whatever squad they have on.
I also agree with VMF513_Viper in that the player may use whatever name as long as he does not use the same tag in the same way as an established squad already has.
You may also not have the whole story and perhaps the person wearing the tag may have been a discharged member from that squad and they should have also removed their squads tag since he was no longer a member.
Anyway, proper etiquette online is to not use a tag already established by a squadron.

LEBillfish
05-24-2004, 02:11 PM
What if my uncle's cousins father worked for a guy who knew a guy who's mothers aunt's daughters step fathers name was "IeLtoo Sturmovik"....... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

How should I know, a gazillion scenarios and a bazillion what ifs.....not really the point though is it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/k2kellyirie/IL2/starnew.txt

Cossack13
05-24-2004, 02:49 PM
Well, they may not have the right to demand that he change his nick, but they can certainly ask.

With a Luftwaffe designation, you can always sidestep the issue by adding a Gruppe or Staffel designation so that you won't be mistaken as a member of the other online squad.

I've spent a lot of time on comms with members from lots of different squads thanks to VEF. Nothing gets people laughing faster than when someone uses a hostorical aces name as their HL nickname. A little something to keep in mind, perhaps?

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/Coss110Sig.gif

Bearcat99
05-24-2004, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bamatt:
We all know several online squads use the designation's of historical squadrons, which is fine and understandable. Now, the other day I was flying around and there was a fella by the name of Jv44_Galland. He was an obvious fan of the real life pilot. Now another fella from the online JV44 squad was grilling this guy, telling him he had to drop the Jv44 from his name because he didnt get permission from the squad. I would like to know what methods these JV44 members used to get permission for THEM to use the squadron name. Were they assigned to the squad by Georing? A couple of other squad members (JG27, III something or other) obviously diagreed with me. So, please tell me, how is what you guys are doing any different from what this fella was doing? One squad memeber tried telling me its because JV44 was an established online squad. The squad was established in WWII, and you cant claim ownership over it. If you dont want someone to use the same designation as you, come up with something unique.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that while it is true that no one has the right to dictate to another online community member what handle he should or shouldnt use... each one of us should respect each other. It is bad manners for the person in question to just take on the handle of an existing squadron as they use it. IE Jv44....

The people here who form squads do so for a reason. It is a matter of respect to the pilots of those squadrons. Likewise the work and effort put into that should e respected. I would have tried to recruit the guy. When we formed the 99th there was no 99th here. I came from the 99th in CFS and I still communicate with them and the 99th of Fighter Ace.... If there were another squad who wanted to form a squad representing the Tuskegee Airmen, although there are no "rights" I have to the name, I would try very hard to work with hoever it was. In fact I came across that very situation here.... but the other guys just disappeared.

I think that anyone who cars enough about a pilot or a squadron to appropriate a part og thier name into thier handle should have the respect for that name to behave honorably. In this case.. the honorable thing for JV44Galland to do would be to either join the squad.. or alter his name. The honorable thing for the squad to do would be to ask him to join or alter his name so that it isnt exactly like the squads handle... and if he declines to do that then leave him with an open invitation and let it go. In the end it boils down to respect.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

USE THAT X45 STICK AS A BUTTON BAY!

Willi_Wombat
05-24-2004, 04:28 PM
Bamatt is fundamentally correct. If a squad wants to "own" an identifier, they must make it unique.

Jv44 could have been embellished any thousands of ways. Add &lt;&lt;**&gt;&gt; or ~**~ or :**: or think up a clever name.

Claiming Jv44 as your own property is as shaky as a the Eagle Squadron denying everyone from using the term "Eagle". It's historical.

This is a no-brainer.

Be more understanding, thoughtful and imaginative Jv44.

Relax.

WW

Copperhead310th
05-24-2004, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bamatt:
All valid points. But, you guys are missing the point I am trying to make. Where did the online squad get THEIR permission to use said designation? What right does this guy have to to tell this pilot that he cant use the same squad name as he is, when niether of them were a part of the actual squadron. I understand what you guys are saying about it being an "established" squad. But its an "established" squad that is using the same designation as a historical squad.


For the record, it was not a JV44 server.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok let me try & sum it all up for you Bamatt.
everyone else here has made some good points
& i tend to agree with most off them.

Some (not All) Online squadrons actually have the endorcment by the real members of the Squadsrons historical name sake. they contacted the veterns assocation & aksed permission to use the name. The 361st is one such group online that i know of that did this & as such they have the right to lay claim & tittle to that name in THIS sim. keeps new guys from comming over from CFS & others from swiping the name out from under them. AS for our 310thFS 58th FG...My grandfather served with them. So i have his OK. & we are in contact with the modern day 310th FS asking them for thier endorcment as well as our 380th BG veterans assosation. So in this case this does give them exclusive rights to the name in FB/AEP/& PF. but as others have said it's about common curticy & respect for an estblished community member.

Here's an exapmle of what we're talking about.
A while back a couple of my guys in the 310th wanted to start flying Lomac. I said "ok...no problem we'll santion that sim as well. i'm unaware of any toher 310th FS flying any jet sims." well low & behold a week latter i stubled across a Falcon 4.0 group using the 310thFS. So i kinldy & poilitely i9ntroduced myself to them on their forum...explained that i was the CO of the WWII ver. of the 310th in FB & invited them to come fly FB with us some time. then i privetly emailed their CO & asked for permmission to use the name in Lomac. As a matter of common respect & curtisy. they were very nice about the whole thing & said sure fine by them & thanked me for taking the time to ask them prior to doing so. (great bunch of guys over there.)

so that pretty much sums that up.

& it's like Diablo said..we take great pride in our name & namesake....we try and celibrate the herroic actions of our hero's everyday. not just on Memorial day or Veterns day.

And we like Toad & the 131st keep a roster page on our website.
310thFS, 58th FG & 380th BG 5th AF Active Roster for AEP/PF (http://www.310thvfs.com/viewroster.php)
If thier not on this list they aint ours. (or they've only been with us a few days.) but if there's every any doubt just check the squads roster. & in the case of any of our members acting like an @ss anywhere on line i want to be the 1st one to know about it. i would & have done the same for other squadrons. It's a lot of time & HARD work developing an online group foe any game. even harder for flight simmers. there's web development, recruiting, promotion, online wars....more than one person can do. I'm just thankfull for all the guys in our squad. greatest bunch of guys you'ld ever have the pleasure to meet.

so i hope this answers your question.

S!~
best regrads-
-=Copperhead=-
-Officer Commanding-
310th VFS & 380th VBG
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

Zeus-cat
05-24-2004, 07:31 PM
This really comes down to respect and some common sense. The people who have "permission" to use the name of a squadron from members of the real squadron, have no more right to use that name than I do. Sorry, but the members of the squadron don't own the name, the government in question owns that squadron and hence the squadron designation.

If you really want to be official, get the US Air Force or the RAF or whoever to give you exclusive rights to the name. Short of that, you don't have anything from a legal standpoint.

That said, people should respect other people's work. If a squadron already exists with a particular name, you shouldn't use it.

One last thought. This is a game, people. If you are going to use a name of a real person or real squadron in a public forum, then you should feel a great obligation to those people to conduct yourself in a manner that would make them proud. Threatening people and throwing temper tantrums is not being respectful to the people who really did fly these planes and risked their lives doing so.

Zeus-cat