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View Full Version : IS it easier to dogfight AI or Human opponents?



Superjew1
07-13-2009, 02:42 PM
Ok Ive figured out that both have their advantages and disadvantages. For my short stint of flying online and then proceeding to have trouble installing both 4.08 and 4.09b patches at the same time on Vista 64 I gave up entirely on having them installed and playing online and have relagated to offline play.

As a result I have about 1 Human opponent victory, and several human opponent deaths, and maybe 2 dozen AI victories and several dozen AI deaths. I play on average skill settings for the AI. Ive only downed zero's, never have downed a N1K (Although I did shoot off an aileron once which made it much easier to follow) in a mission of N1K's/Zero's vs F4U Corsairs/F6F-3 Hellcats.

I was curious if you can learn anything worthwhile for when I finally do online play shooting down AI or if it is apple to oranges and human opponents are much harder?

Also, a little off topic but I was sad to find that when I did do online play, it wasnt the tight formations of b17's/p38's and p51's streaking across the sky to fight German planes scrambling to get up to fighting the AMerican planes that I had envision. It had little to no formations at all, some servers were free fer alls where any type of plane could fight any other type of plane and there were little to no formations or teamwork that I could tell from.

Any idea on how I fix that experience when I do get back into online play? I would like a more realistic experience. Also people seemed overly concerned with kill/death ratios then getting the mission done, anyone else notice that?

Superjew1
07-13-2009, 02:42 PM
Ok Ive figured out that both have their advantages and disadvantages. For my short stint of flying online and then proceeding to have trouble installing both 4.08 and 4.09b patches at the same time on Vista 64 I gave up entirely on having them installed and playing online and have relagated to offline play.

As a result I have about 1 Human opponent victory, and several human opponent deaths, and maybe 2 dozen AI victories and several dozen AI deaths. I play on average skill settings for the AI. Ive only downed zero's, never have downed a N1K (Although I did shoot off an aileron once which made it much easier to follow) in a mission of N1K's/Zero's vs F4U Corsairs/F6F-3 Hellcats.

I was curious if you can learn anything worthwhile for when I finally do online play shooting down AI or if it is apple to oranges and human opponents are much harder?

Also, a little off topic but I was sad to find that when I did do online play, it wasnt the tight formations of b17's/p38's and p51's streaking across the sky to fight German planes scrambling to get up to fighting the AMerican planes that I had envision. It had little to no formations at all, some servers were free fer alls where any type of plane could fight any other type of plane and there were little to no formations or teamwork that I could tell from.

Any idea on how I fix that experience when I do get back into online play? I would like a more realistic experience. Also people seemed overly concerned with kill/death ratios then getting the mission done, anyone else notice that?

ImMoreBetter
07-13-2009, 02:52 PM
The AI is no substitute for human players at all. The AI is very predicable, yet I have never been in a fight against a real person that was as similar to the last. The AI doesn't have the advanced tactics that you occasionally find in a real person. People make more mistakes as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

However, fighting against the AI can still hone your core skills, such as aiming, deflection, engine management, general aircraft control, fine aircraft control, and other things like that.

Mr_Zooly
07-13-2009, 03:08 PM
Versus human is so much more fun as it gives a feeling of acomplishment as opposed to scripted AI.

stalkervision
07-13-2009, 03:22 PM
The "mod squad" has a new Ai that will give you a go I hear.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

horseback
07-13-2009, 03:25 PM
You'll also find out that some aircraft have ai routines that're 'smarter' than others. Most of the time, that means that the basic ai routines are better suited to that aircraft's FM, but some (La-5FN) just seem <STRIKE>craftier</STRIKE> sneakier about it.

All friendly ai are about two levels down from the corresponding enemy ai, which means that your Veteran ai wingman will usually be overmatched against an Average (and often Rookie) enemy ai, unless he's flying a much more capable aircraft.

In practical terms this means that ACE and Veteran friendlies tend to loiter around the Player so that they can steal credit for your hard work, swooping in after you've set the poor bugger smoking, and de-wing him, announcing "This is Three. He's going down!"

Remember that the ai are not dive limited (this is especially crucial when taking on Zeros or Oscars; historically valid tactics aren't always useful) and never overheat. From what I've seen, carbeurated aircraft like the I-16 or Hurricane Mk I are able to fly upside down in a manner that always had my engine chugging and sputtering in a microsecond.

The other thing is that flying against and with the ai will teach you to fly better. They can ALWAYS squeeze the ideal performance out of their 'planes', their trim is precisely set at every moment, and they have SA that is almost Godlike (He knows what's happening a few microseconds before they do, but for all practical purposes there's no difference--it's just that He uses His powers for Good).

Keeping up with the ai is an indication that you are starting to control your aircraft and pull the most out of it.

cheers

horseback

Xiolablu3
07-13-2009, 03:42 PM
Depends on the skill of the human opponent of course, but in general a human IL2 player will be better than the AI.

BillSwagger
07-13-2009, 04:26 PM
Playing against people online is great, but there are many times i'm reminded its a game with flaws that come with online gaming, and competition. People pretty much do what ever they can to have an edge, but i think it ruins the game. All this energy and thought, goes into making something accurate and have a realistic appeal to it, but some crap i see pulls the rug out from underneath the whole concept.

When i see things getting too fake for me, or going beyond how the game was intended, then i exit the game and play with my own preferences against the AI, using the AI mod (highly recommended) where i know the game will at least play through how it was supposed to, with no weird crap and lags that come with online competition.
Lately, though i have enjoyed the CRT=2 and CRT=3 servers, with some 1 v 1 competition.
At least that lets me know where i stand, and what i could work on with my dogfight skills.



I never had to patch up to 4.08, as the new 4.08 version was only 10 bucks when i bought it, and the patch to 4.09 was a breeze.
My understanding is you just install the patch folders into the existing directory folders and that should do it.

I'm not sure where your problem is, but you might ask for help from someone who also runs vista.
Maybe you already have.

Bearcat99
07-13-2009, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The "mod squad" has a new Ai that will give you a go I hear.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very good...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Depends on the skill of the human opponent of course, but in general a human IL2 player will be better than the AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree... I have flown against AI that seemed almost human.. and humans that seemed like rookie AI... therefore "easier" or "harder" are IMO very subjective... as for which is more satisfying.. humans.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WTE_Galway
07-13-2009, 04:51 PM
You cannot sucker or psych out the AI ... but they are way predictable.

Woke_Up_Dead
07-13-2009, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
However, fighting against the AI can still hone your core skills, such as aiming, deflection, engine management, general aircraft control, fine aircraft control, and other things like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AI can be OK at practicing specific "set plays" or for getting a rough idea on how airplane performances compare, particularly if your AI opponent has a very dissimilar performance envelope from yours. For example, take a fast late-war plane, go up against an AI Zero, and you will start getting some clues about how to defeat a Zero without getting into a turn-fight online. Or switch sides and start learning how to avoid boom and zooms. The AI is too scripted to accurately approximate a human player, but it can teach you some basics if you're a beginner.

As far as looking for formations and historical missions online, your best bet is to join a co-op game. In the dogfight servers all you will get is the occasional group of two or three squad-mates flying together.

However, even on the dogfight servers sometimes you can get someone to join you in formation if you ask in the chat bar and wait for them while they spawn and take-off. As soon as two or three bombers join up and fly in formation then some fighter pilots will become inspired and decide to escort them and voila, you get a tiny bit of realism in the middle of a free-for-all. Just a couple of days ago I had a blast going up against 4-5 bomber formations of B-25's and A-20's on one of the UK-Dedicated servers. It all started with one guy on the other team asking if someone wants to form up with him.

Ba5tard5word
07-13-2009, 05:07 PM
I rarely enjoy playing games online because of all the competitiveness and lag. I prefer to play stuff like co-ops such as Left 4 Dead where you have to work together instead of working against one another.

Anyway I like offline, I find the unmodded AI generally puts up a good fight.

Different planes have completely different AI though. La-5's and Hellcats are really lazy but any Fw-190 or LaGG-3 opponent is a lot tougher I find. I refuse to fly a P-38 because its AI for the wingmen is atrocious.

WTE_Galway
07-13-2009, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
However, fighting against the AI can still hone your core skills, such as aiming, deflection, engine management, general aircraft control, fine aircraft control, and other things like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AI can be OK at practicing specific "set plays" or for getting a rough idea on how airplane performances compare, particularly if your AI opponent has a very dissimilar performance envelope from yours. For example, take a fast late-war plane, go up against an AI Zero, and you will start getting some clues about how to defeat a Zero without getting into a turn-fight online. Or switch sides and start learning how to avoid boom and zooms. The AI is too scripted to accurately approximate a human player, but it can teach you some basics if you're a beginner.

As far as looking for formations and historical missions online, your best bet is to join a co-op game. In the dogfight servers all you will get is the occasional group of two or three squad-mates flying together.

However, even on the dogfight servers sometimes you can get someone to join you in formation if you ask in the chat bar and wait for them while they spawn and take-off. As soon as two or three bombers join up and fly in formation then some fighter pilots will become inspired and decide to escort them and voila, you get a tiny bit of realism in the middle of a free-for-all. Just a couple of days ago I had a blast going up against 4-5 bomber formations of B-25's and A-20's on one of the UK-Dedicated servers. It all started with one guy on the other team asking if someone wants to form up with him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True ... though in co-ops you get the option of having humans in the gunner positions.

idonno
07-13-2009, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Superjew1:

Any idea on how I fix that experience when I do get back into online play? I would like a more realistic experience.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wanna play an air combat game, or fly an air combat SIMULATION (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48310655/m/9771043336)?

jayhall0315
07-13-2009, 05:20 PM
It is no contest. An Intermediate level human player is far better than the 'Ace' AI planes of the game (with or without the AI mods). I finally broke down and turned to the darkside with my first mod, the AI Mod V.30 and I was very much .... mehhh. Slightly better performance than stock AI but nothing approaching a human being.

If someone never played online and they got to the point where they could defeat any single 'Ace' AI plane in a duel and then went online and faced someone from the Master's List... it would be a slaughterhouse. They would be defeated 49-1 with the one loss coming from when the Master had to park off the joystick for a bit to take a dump.

That is how large the delta is between human three dimensional thought and scripted AI routines within the game (so far).

Superjew, as to formations of bombers with P51s overhead and FW 190s coming in high to break that up, you need to look into some of the Online War formats (which are online). In many of these, you pick a side and an airframe, from the beginning and then go on somewhat historic missions. And if you die, you really die and then have to sit out for awhile (or permanently) or take a time-out penalty, etc.... Since your virtual life is so much more important to you in this format than your standard Hyperlobby butcher's shop, you do not see almost any noob head on firing, ramming, etc... it is much more careful and deliberate flying. Look into it......

BillSwagger
07-13-2009, 05:31 PM
http://www.underconsideration.com/wordit/wordit_archives/0602_what_Bill_Dussinger.jpg

Ba5tard5word
07-13-2009, 05:55 PM
Taking on a single AI enemy fighter is always easy. Set up larger battles where you're at a numerical disadvantage if you want more of a challenge than 1 vs 1. Even if you have like 8 v 8 it can be challenging because the AI will work together.

Blindman-
07-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Personally, I love the AI mod (over at AAA). I usually practice DF against 2 at Ace level and have actually learned some ideas for being a better wingman. I find that Ace/Vet AI (both are about the same) are more of a challenge than about 25% of the humans I have fought; but it largely depends on the plane and the situation.

If you want more cooperation I recommend staying off the DF servers and fly coop. If you are still having trouble PM me and I will do what I can to help you out.

staticline1
07-13-2009, 06:46 PM
Once in a while a good mission against the AI comes along where the AI actually fly in most respects correct to its a/c. There is one stock in the game under the IJN flying the N1K2-JA. I've flown this mission a number of times from different angles since I know whats coming and its still tough. You fly in the George in the usual CAP and end up going aginst I have no idea how many P-51's but in the first pass they always paste my wingmen. This leaves me with something like 10 ponies with an altitude advantage and vastly outnumbered, meaning I'm always screwed as they just BnZ me the entire time never staying in a turn very long and diving then climbing to gain the advantage again. I've only managed to get one in two differnet try's as the George sucks in that position, the combat flaps always comes out in the worst time (stupid auto flaps) but it still left me with a sense of immersion, what the IJN guys must have felt in the same position. Its not the same against a person but a pretty good one none the less.

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I think AI can be more challenging than humans depending on the plane set and difficulty settings.

With more uber planes (late war) i seem to have a much easier time against ace AI, even with full real switches activated.

In early war missions, this is much different.
Taking on 109Es in an I-153 is a whole lot harder and i also get more immersion out of it.

I actually prefer early war campaigns for that reason. There are also some interesting aircraft that can be introduced into a mission or campaign, that otherwise might not stand a chance against late war fire power.

If you still think that Humans are harder, maybe take that approach next time you fly offline.

mortoma
07-17-2009, 03:42 PM
Big advantage when against human player is you can sneak up on them but the AI has perfect situational awareness and always know you're there. Try to sneak up on the six of AI in IL2 and when you get within 600 meters they start to automatically jink to avoid you as soon as your gunsight lines up on them.

But humans will turn a lot tighter than even the ace AI will. If the AI is in a Zero and you are in a much worse turning plane like the Corsair, if you get in a turning match against them they will let you turn around on their tail within a few circles. Try that against even a poor human player in the same scenario!

Also the AI can't shoot deflection in a sustained turn very well and Oleg did this on purpose to give you more of a chance. They just shoot behind you. Sometimes they'll pepper you a little but more often than not they won't even hit you. Sometimes in passing shots their deflection is perfect so be careful. But in sustained turn you're almost guaranteed to be safe and they'll give up after a few turns, usually five of six. A human pilot would stick to you and not give up so easily.

Trefle
07-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Humans are stronger by far , it's not even comparable .. AI use "patterns" , Human is not predictable ..

Experienced human pilot spot you from much farther and has better SA .. Human can outmanoeuvre you and use every bit of advantage of his plane compared to yours , the AI can only cheat on gravity/black-outs/dive-climb-level speed etc... to close the gap but it's rarely enough . Veteran Human is much more accurate in gunnery and deflection , much smarter in his tactics and decision-making depending what's happening around him , much more reactive and prone to exploit a mistake of yours or to find opportunities to survive/disengage ..

The only thing the AI can do better than most human without cheating on plane performances is head-on attacks ,otherwise it's no contest really , just go fly on online full switch server like spitvs109 or AH-CZ dedicated and you'll notice quickly how an experienced human pilot (especially when flying on comms with teammates ) is far superior to the AI in every aspect IMHO .

stalkervision
07-17-2009, 07:34 PM
I really hope SOW's Ai is world and words better then Il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

want a excellent ai BOB/WOV is what you want. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have had tremendous one v one battles in my 109 with the spit's Ai.

Chivas
07-17-2009, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Big advantage when against human player is you can sneak up on them but the AI has perfect situational awareness and always know you're there. Try to sneak up on the six of AI in IL2 and when you get within 600 meters they start to automatically jink to avoid you as soon as your gunsight lines up on them.

But humans will turn a lot tighter than even the ace AI will. If the AI is in a Zero and you are in a much worse turning plane like the Corsair, if you get in a turning match against them they will let you turn around on their tail within a few circles. Try that against even a poor human player in the same scenario!

Also the AI can't shoot deflection in a sustained turn very well and Oleg did this on purpose to give you more of a chance. They just shoot behind you. Sometimes they'll pepper you a little but more often than not they won't even hit you. Sometimes in passing shots their deflection is perfect so be careful. But in sustained turn you're almost guaranteed to be safe and they'll give up after a few turns, usually five of six. A human pilot would stick to you and not give up so easily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

The most important factor is the ability to communicated effectively with your wingman, and squadron. A decent on-line server with players that use Teamspeak effectively are currently the most immersive experience.

Chivas
07-17-2009, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I really hope SOW's Ai is world and words better then Il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

want a excellent ai BOB/WOV is what you want. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have had tremendous one v one battles in my 109 with the spit's Ai. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the AI takes a little longer to kill in BOB WOV. Part of the reason is the FM in IL-2 and available stick adjustments allow me to fine tune the 109 into a far more stable gun platform. This allows you to get the kill shot much sooner in IL-2.

I've never flown a world war two fighter so I have no idea how stable a gun platform these aircraft were, but its fun either way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ofcourse the most stable gunplatform in the world won't help us if we're not sure how take a deflection shot.

JtD
07-18-2009, 12:04 AM
When I switched from offline to online play I found that it was far easier to score kills and far easier to get killed.

Humans don't have perfect SA, so you can bounce them. This helps a lot and makes it easier to kill.

On the other hand they don't waste all their ammo by not managing a deflection shot in a slight turn.

rnzoli
07-18-2009, 02:15 AM
A lot depends on what level of AI we are talking about.
The ACE level AI is significantly different than the ROOKIE.
Fighting against a mixed opposition (e.g., a flight with ACE leader, veteran or average wingmen and a rookie maybe) you can get quite a variety and you cannot predict nearly anything, you may have just killed the rookie, when suddenly the ace flight leader dewings your aircraft from 600 m deflection shot from the clouds...

So all of you who thrash-talk the AI should be a little bit more cautious, fighting them in DCG campaigns can be a challenge for good pilots also.