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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:49 PM
Well, the inevitable has happened and now the fighting starts.

Surely making the beta(s) publicly available would allow a greater range of testing over a broader spectrum of the programme, rather than using a select (and far less numerous) body of individuals.

Everyone will download the "finished" patch anyway so it's not as if people will expect miracles with the work-in-progress code. A simple disclaimer stating the potential risks involved in using the un-finished code would cover the developer's arses.

I understand the suprise/excitement element of a patch or add-on, but with a game as complex as FB I would've thought the more feedback on the tweaks being made the better.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:49 PM
Well, the inevitable has happened and now the fighting starts.

Surely making the beta(s) publicly available would allow a greater range of testing over a broader spectrum of the programme, rather than using a select (and far less numerous) body of individuals.

Everyone will download the "finished" patch anyway so it's not as if people will expect miracles with the work-in-progress code. A simple disclaimer stating the potential risks involved in using the un-finished code would cover the developer's arses.

I understand the suprise/excitement element of a patch or add-on, but with a game as complex as FB I would've thought the more feedback on the tweaks being made the better.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:52 PM
Would that not make the final release confusing, Lixma?

In other words, every one has the beta version passed around.
Then UBI releases the final verson and many people would get confused and still have the beta version and would be pi$$ed off at all of the errors in it.

Look at how many were confused with the various versions of the IL2 patch.

My two cents. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:13 PM
Hmm...gotta go with Lixma on this one.

It seems to me to make a lot more sense to opening up the Beta to the community. I couldn understand them wanting to limit it for ease of administration, but limiting the audience limits the Beta. Who's better qualified to find out all the bugs in the Beta than this community? Have you looked in ORR? There are jokers calculating how many MILS the Fw190 struts obstrcut the view point.

And nothing against the previous or current Beta testers, but there was a lot of stuff that's needed to be patched from the get go with FB (and I am sure everyone else noted this too). Examples: Turn and slip indicator on the P-47, unbelieveable ship accuracy, P-40 explosions, etc. My point is that it's a mystery to me how all this stuff made it through the beta. I am not saying the Beta-testers didn't find a huge amount of bugs that I have never heard of, just that FB is a BIG game and it takes a lot of people or a long time to test everything.

Now, I can see that if it were released to the general community it could just be considered a patch on its own..and then the dev team would have to go back and make the official one and release that...but still, it would benefit from a large group of people who could play it ONLINE and really give it a good ringing out. I hope that's what the current Beta is doing...







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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:17 PM
If you've never beta tested anything. Then you have no idea what a nightmare that would be.

How willing are you to test something that will probably crash your system?

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:25 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- If you've never beta tested anything. Then you have
- no idea what a nightmare that would be.
-
- How willing are you to test something that will
- probably crash your system?
-
-
- Da Buzz

I wouldn't assume that folks don't know what a beta is Buzz.

Lets not confuse this with a standard beta where the dev wants to make sure features work. We're talking about historical flight performance, damage, roll rates, etc. A typical beta tester is not going to care how fast something rolls, just that it does. What they need for the beta test is a bunch of a n a l grognards. And look...I think I have found a great many.

As far as crashing your system...well...Beta's are not for you if that's one of your fears.

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:40 PM
You said;

As far as crashing your system...well...Beta's are not for you if that's one of your fears.


Yet you want to give it to everybody.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:45 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- You said;
-
- As far as crashing your system...well...Beta's are
- not for you if that's one of your fears.
-
-
- Yet you want to give it to everybody.
-



Yeah, with a "Use at your own risk" disclaimer. What's wrong with that?
Those who want to play the beta, will take such risks. Those who don't- won't!

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:46 PM
With a warning Buzz. If they use the beta then they're responsible.

I wouldn't want them to release a version so unstable anyway, just one that is there or thereabouts and let the community give it a thorough thrashing to highlight any remaining (and realistically fixable) bugs.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:46 PM
That's right Buzz. I am gonna break down your door and make you download it.

But AGAIN we're talking about a PATCH. I don't know how unstable this SHOULD make FB. But my understanding is that we're mostly talking about flight models. Not core changes to the code.

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Message Edited on 06/25/0311:48AM by MachineII

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:49 PM
People are hungry for information because there is so very little of it forthcoming from either IC or UBI on the matter.

AFAIK the only solid information we HAVE gotten about the patch is a single forum post from Oleg that a Russian speaking community member had to translate for us.

I see the same thing happening with all the forum problems we're having. We're told that they're "looking at the problem", but then that's all we hear about it for literally months, meanwhile the forum problems continue and grow worse nearly every day. I wonder sometimes if they are indeed working on it at all!

BTW my forum scripts aren't working...again
Nor can I post from home without getting a false "you've been banned message"....again.



Regards,
August

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:54 PM
I agree, August....the lack of info is frustrating. We all have our own pet-peeves with the game we'd like to see fixed. It would be nice to hear some specifics occasionaly.

Oh BTW, you are banned. Snoopy just phoned and asked me to tell you to desist in posting until you (or anyone) can remember what you did wrong and promise not to do it again.



Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:57 PM
I don't want to come off as a wet blanket, but open betas cause more problems than they solve.

If this patch was purely FM and such, it would be a good idea, but since it has been said that the engine is getting reworked, giving it to the community is not really a good idea.

Consider the following:
Most people assume bugs as features.
A small percentage always assumes a feature they dont like is a bug.
Some people see bugs that noone else sees.
The majority cannot accurately describe the bug they've found.
Syncing patch-patches is a royal pain.
If anything in the patch needs to be fixed, everyone has to redownload, which equates to more bandwidth used by UBIs site (more bandwidth = higher cost of ownership). 30% will not notice the patch-patch and come back 6 months later with bug reports.
If anything goes wrong, and the users have to reinstall FB to make it playable again, there will be whining beyond comprehension.

Open betas do more harm than good.


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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:58 PM
Nothing wrong with having a choice is there Buzz? Personally I'm a little sick of the world protecting the idiots. Natural selection can no longer take its course. Instead we have to drink colder coffee from McDonalds (not that I drink coffee) and soon Twinkies will no longer be bad for you (or taste any good). What's my point? Hold on let me find it..... there it is. If some nimrod doesn't understand or bother to read the warning involved with installing the beta then let his/her computer blow up in their face. Personally if the Beta were available to me I wouldn't DL it. Mainly because I don't think I could offer any opinions in the short amount of time I'll be able to play before the official patch it out. But at least I have the choice.



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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:08 PM
Gemini,
I only gave one example. Read the post above yours for more.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:41 PM
An open beta would be a disaster. BaldieJr is right. If you think the release is slow now, it would never happen if Oleg and company had to sift through all the "reports" given by every Tom, **** and Harry with an axe to grind. Just check ORR for some examples.

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:14 PM
From what I have seen on these UBI boards, I wouldn't want *these* posters to have any input on *my* Patch from Oleg.

I can wait until June 22. happysmileyface.rbj

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:46 PM
Dont listen to buzz, 2 facts look how il2 fb was shipped out with closed beta testing, look at games with open beta testing motorcity online, earth and beyond. If you tested them all you know which has the most major problems

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:04 PM
Not to mention the beta versions would not be compatible in online play. I can wait. This is, after all, an impatient patch-whiner's post, is it not?

Relax and enjoy the game. The patch will come.

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:05 PM
Don't listen to spitter either. His mom dropped him on his head once. and he never recovered.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:31 PM
Beta = test. Unfinished. Work in progress, update from Tuesday available on Monday.

Geez, the last thing they need is my subjective comments like "it seems a little spinnie to me," and "it sorta handles thick." Unless they want an opinion on the fun factor, I'd be pretty useless as a beta tester, to be honest.

Naw, let folks that have signed on to the beta team and are dedicated to it (yet another bit I'd be terrible at - "Sorry I didn't give any reports, I just got MOHAA Spearhead and me and the kid devoted most of the week to it, so I didn't even get a chance to install it."); I'll wait on the release date to get the finals.

Likewise some things in the beta probably get cut out in the final that I'd wish were left in. Let's say they put the parachute grenades that came out of the back of the IL-2 into a beta and it worked great on my system (they came out and went boom), but didn't work on a third of the systems tested, and caused stutters and fps drops in another third. It would probably get cut from the final for that reason - and cause endless whining.

Truth told, it would be better that I had never seen a feature like that, using the "you don't miss the city lights if you've never seen them" theory.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 09:36 PM
Excellent way to have your games dumbed down to the least common denominator./i/smilies/16x16_robot-mad.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:31 PM
The thing that gets me is ......these Beta testers were trusted with this patch...and once again just like with the IL2 patches it wound up in the public arena. As much as i want this patch I would like to be sure it is going to work so I personnally have no problem with just waiting for 1C to finish it and release a finished product.


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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:36 PM
I can agree with that.

But I'm not sure the purpose of a beta test at all, if the developer is only going to insist everything is right already. Especially when it obviously isn't.

Like in ORR currently, in such a situation adding more beta testers would only create more disagreement rather than more fixes.

This begs the question was the beta test only for the purpose of determining the programs stability and ability to run problem free, or to also test the accuracy of the modeling itself?

In this regard we are still in the beta test period. And the end is nowhere in sight.





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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:50 PM
With diffrent FM's, it would probably totally mess-up online play. and what about the new flyable aircraft?

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Hunter82
06-25-2003, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry first as the only way I can say this is probably going to make me sound like more of an *** than I already do but you guys have no friggin clue what the beta process was,what we reported and what was/was not actually fixed. Trust me an open beta is worse than a closed.....


For example:
I opened a bug report thread in Tech after release of FB on request.... in ORR a thread was opened and I promptly pointed those to that thread with proper bug reporting procedures...... no one follwed them and ignored the post or said they do not recognize it as a 'official post' ....



I guess in a nutshell that would sum up the open beta experience.... lots of opinions and no one following procedure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- The thing that gets me is ......these Beta testers
- were trusted with this patch...and once again just
- like with the IL2 patches it wound up in the public
- arena.


I'm sure that also "these beta testers" are pretty annoyed by the rotten apple, person who leaked it.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:33 PM
Hunter82 wrote:

"I guess in a nutshell that would sum up the open beta experience.... lots of opinions and no one following procedure"

------------

Yes, I can honestly say I don't envy the beta testers.

However, sometimes you just gotta be able to stand up and admit the system is flawed somewhere. And insist that perhaps a different approach is required or would be beneficial.

I understand this may not endear you to the powers that be and the status quo.





--------------------------------------

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Mark Twain

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 12:14 AM
With respect to all, wouldn't open beta be like everyone on a bus having their own steering wheel? It'd be fun but I bet it'd take longer to get where you wanna go.

Discussion and input is great and each has their place but it can't be open-ended - what we all want is delivery, right?

Hunter82
06-26-2003, 12:19 AM
Please don't take that as a slam to the beta testing..... I think that is correct form. Open public testing I do not agree with and find the fact that those who downloaded the leaked beta are posting here is very poor form..... it's none of their business and they are misrepresenting Oleg by even stating 1 item to be this way when it may not be...remember their 'test' version is dated June 5 ....... alot can/has happened since June 5 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 12:56 AM
Well, I thought about this long and hard for about 0.000001 seconds. Considering the amount of whinning in this forum and the numbers of individuals (with and without sources) insisting that the way "you" think this plane should fly etc.. is "the" way Oleg should make it, I just can't see how any kind of open Beta testing would work.

This has to be the most opinionated community that I have ever belonged to in my 15 years of flight simming. Everyone knows the saying "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one and they all stink".

But then again that's just "my" stinky opinion /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 06/25/0305:26PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 01:58 AM
BaldieJr wrote:

- Consider the following:
- Most people assume bugs as features.
- A small percentage always assumes a feature they
- dont like is a bug.
- Some people see bugs that noone else sees.
- The majority cannot accurately describe the bug
- they've found.
- Syncing patch-patches is a royal pain.
- If anything in the patch needs to be fixed, everyone
- has to redownload, which equates to more bandwidth
- used by UBIs site (more bandwidth = higher cost of
- ownership). 30% will not notice the patch-patch and
- come back 6 months later with bug reports.
- If anything goes wrong, and the users have to
- reinstall FB to make it playable again, there will
- be whining beyond comprehension.


These are excellent points. I was leaning toward the other side of this issue but you have convinced me.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 02:10 AM
Hunter, that is so absolutely true. When Issy took it upon himself to start a "bug report thread" in ORR, I posted a message pointing out that there was already an official thread for this purpose, and that people with genuine bugs to report should use it rather than confuse the issue by starting a new one. And a couple of people posted smartassed replies that "that thread's dead" or "it's not really official" and the others just ignored it completely. And now, as you say, they did the same thing to you.

Studying your official bug report thread, and Issy's alternative version, also brings out another problem which will inevitably surface in open-beta testing: too damn many of these people DON'T KNOW WHAT A BUG IS. As Baldy said, some people will call anything a "bug" that they don't like. And almost nobody seems to understand the difference between a bug and a design error.

(That the Chaika's upper wing turns blue when hit is a bug. That the gunners are too accurate is not a bug; it is a design error. That you can see the sun through the Brewster's nose is a bug; that its turn speed is off is a design error. IF the FW's cockpit is incorrect, a point on which I have no opinion whatever since I don't fly the damn thing, then it may be a design error but it isn't a bug. Occasionally the distinction isn't clear--that you can't do an air restart of the I-153 or I-16 may be a bug or it may be a design error--but usually it should be. But try and explain that to these mumblewits.)

I've been following your bug thread with great interest ever since it came out, as well as the alternative ones (and Issy's isn't the first, just the longest so far), and if this is a sample then there isn't enough money in Ubi's budget to pay me to read and evaluate open-beta reports.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 02:15 AM
This is always the case when one is dealing with so much data of a subjective nature.

I mean who can accurately say that the nuances of a flight model are accurate or not.

You got 10 different pilots you get 10 different answers. That's the problem, everyone has bias.

The real challenge as a human being is learning to identify and control your own bias and allegiance to whatever cause you see is in your best interest. And not let it cloud your objective thinking.

This is always done when looking at someone else rather than ones self. And this is why in government or anything else no one man has all the answers, even though he may possess all of the power.

The real challenge is getting him to see that for himself.





--------------------------------------

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Mark Twain


Message Edited on 06/25/0309:20PM by James_Gang