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boothers
11-11-2004, 02:31 PM
hi,

just got pacific fighters and installed into fb + aep.
having a spot of bother engaging zeros in the wildcat. If one gets on my tail i've had it. just cannot shake them off or out manouvre them.
any advice for a rookie? please.
flight characteristics are set to full realism. i dont use complex engine management.
im sure i never had this much trouble with 109's!

Stiglr
11-11-2004, 02:40 PM
There is nothing you can do. The Zero turns better, climbs much better and speeds are pretty similar, with the Zero accelerating faster (I *think* on acceleration).

A Wildcat vs a Zero is toast at co-alt and in a duel situation (provided the Zero pilot knows what he's doing). Where the Wildcat can improve things is to have a wingman and do the Thach Weave: they stay abeam about the radius of their turning circle, and if one gets a Zero on him, he turns towards the other, who does the same, dragging the Zero towards him for a clearing shot. Since the F4F can take much more damage than a Zero, the F4F being chased might have time to survive...and even a glancing snapshot by the clearing Wildcat might cripple a Zero.

DIRTY-MAC
11-11-2004, 02:44 PM
try zissors
or
if you have desent hight
a spiral dive
and then zoom up again
zeros have a bad roll rate

LilHorse
11-11-2004, 03:08 PM
The Wildcat should also have the advantage in the dive. If you stick to BnZ you should be able to use superior dive speed to get away. The problem then becomes regaining altitude at safe enough distance away from them to try another pass. Just always try to have plenty of altitude to dive away.

Oh, and as Stiglr advises, tactics like the Thach weave help. That is if you're online and your wingman is human and you have comms. Such tactics require good communication.

RocketDog
11-11-2004, 03:45 PM
Dive! If you're online the Zero will fall apart long before you do and if you're offline you can still pull away and extend.

But if he's good, you're basically toast.

Regards,

RocketDog.

VW-IceFire
11-11-2004, 04:43 PM
Dive away...try and get speed and then if you're feeling lucky, zoom back to alt and try and get him.

This works for P-40 and P-39's too...seen far too many get suckered into turning. Like this one guy for 2 Oscars on his tail and he couldn't get away because he kept turning...low and behold when I told him to dive and run he had no trouble.

Stiglr
11-11-2004, 05:01 PM
At the altitudes most of this community flies at, diving isn't much of an option.

As for roll rate, the Wildcat is not a plane likely to make people forget a FW190 or a Corsair. It's basically a stubby barrel with wings. Although, at speed, I suppose it'd outroll a Zeke, and so would most anything else.

killer2359
11-11-2004, 06:46 PM
A guy in another thread WHO FLIES REAL ZERO AND WILDCAT in the Confederate AirForce has confirmed that the Wildcat should be able to outdive and outrun the Zero much better than in PF.

Not sure which FM is wrong (maybe both) but something's not right for sure.

LEXX_Luthor
11-11-2004, 07:04 PM
Stiglr, you made it in my sig...at least temp..

fordfan25
11-11-2004, 07:10 PM
well just do some twisting and turning and try and wait for him to run outa ammo. the wildcat is a tough bird. it doesnt take long for a zero to run outa cannon ammo and there nose mounted guns do little dmg.

ImpStarDuece
11-11-2004, 11:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killer2359:
A guy in another thread WHO FLIES REAL ZERO AND WILDCAT in the Confederate AirForce has confirmed that the Wildcat should be able to outdive and outrun the Zero much better than in PF.

Not sure which FM is wrong (maybe both) but something's not right for sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outdive, yes. More HP and more weight. They didn't call it the 'Iron Works' for nothing.

Outrun, no on your life. As far as i can recall the Zero is faster at ALL altitudes than the Wildcat.

x__CRASH__x
11-12-2004, 12:33 AM
You flying against the AI? Take him to the deck and start a vertical scissors reeeeeal close to the water. The AI can't stand that and will break off.

Mozzie_21
11-12-2004, 06:20 AM
The zero is a far better plane in almost all respects than the wildcat. One on one, in a dogfight, there is no real way that you can consistently beat one.

boothers
11-12-2004, 10:23 AM
Now thats what i call a good response! thanks everyone.
er, what exactly is a "vertical scissors" crash?

JG53Frankyboy
11-12-2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killer2359:
A guy in another thread WHO FLIES REAL ZERO AND WILDCAT in the Confederate AirForce has confirmed that the Wildcat should be able to outdive and outrun the Zero much better than in PF.

Not sure which FM is wrong (maybe both) but something's not right for sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outdive, yes. More HP and more weight. They didn't call it the 'Iron Works' for nothing.

Outrun, no on your life. As far as i can recall the Zero is faster at ALL altitudes than the Wildcat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

most propably the Zeros , espacially the Model21 , will get some tweaks with the comming patch . mostly the will than be faster than now in PF 3.0.

in PF3.0 the F4F-4 is faster at level flight than the Model21 - that shouldnt be following every combat report ore performance test in WW2 !

so, in PF3.0 , run ! also, as it was already said , the F4F-4 can widstand A LOT of punishment of the A6M2 weapons , which 20mm canons run out of ammo very fast (60 rpg) nad its Typ97 MG are close to useless.

you can also outroll and therefore outmanouver the Zeke above 350km/H IAS .

if im in a Zeke, and fight vs F4F-4s, i fly energie taktics. i go NEVER in a horizontal based turnfight . works perfect, because the Zeke is outclimbing the Wildcat very easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
beeing horizontal for too long time behind a foe , very often im an easy kill for one of his teammates

btw, as a side note , the F4F-4 has in PF3.0 to much ammo (350rpg) - will be reduced to a more correct 240rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
and the F4F-3 has to less with also 350rpg - should more around 430rpg

rcocean
11-12-2004, 10:58 AM
Per AHT, WW II Pilots had the following comments on the F4F:

"pitifully inferior to the zero in maneuvarbilty."

"An overloaded clunker"

"... Has the feel of an overloaded torpedo plane"

"Many pilots felt the F4f-4 was completely outclassed by the Zero"

So IMO, if you can't win a dogfight with a zero, the planes are modeled correctly.

LilHorse
11-12-2004, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rcocean:
Per AHT, WW II Pilots had the following comments on the F4F:

"pitifully inferior to the zero in maneuvarbilty."

"An overloaded clunker"

"... Has the feel of an overloaded torpedo plane"

"Many pilots felt the F4f-4 was completely outclassed by the Zero"

So IMO, if you can't win a dogfight with a zero, the planes are modeled correctly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The whole point is that you don't dogfight with a Zero. A Mustang would lose a dogfight with a Zero, at least a low, slow speed turning dogfight. The Wildcat can dive at speeds that would tear the Zero apart (they had an absolute dive speed limit of 356mph) and the Wildcat can take much higher G loads and handle better at higher speeds where the Zero's controls will start to stiffen up.

Oh, and @ Stiglr...it may be true that most ppl don't fly as high as they should, but I do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif. I usually prefer to climb to around 6000 meters if I can before I start hunting. Plenty of altitude for dive speeds.

AtorianPaladin
11-12-2004, 01:22 PM
read sum books. the flying tigers led by Col Chenault had the same problems. they were in early P-40's against Japans best.

Chenault layed down a few rules, the first of which was always have a wingman. the A6M could fly circles around the p40 (so could anything), so the flying tigers had to use tact over strength.

If u cant get em down, your wing might, if he cant, bye bye

RedDeth
11-12-2004, 01:32 PM
PALADIN evidently you yourself havent read any book on the flying tigers.

the flying tigers never fought zeroes.

DIRTY-MAC
11-12-2004, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AtorianPaladin:
read sum books. the flying tigers led by Col Chenault had the same problems. they were in early P-40's against Japans best.

Chenault layed down a few rules, the first of which was always have a wingman. the A6M could fly circles around the p40 (so could anything), so the flying tigers had to use tact over strength.

for the first they didnt fight Zeros
it was most Ki-43s and some Ki-27s and Ki-44s

The P-40s the Tigers used was not at all inferior to the zero, they rolled and dived
much much better, and they had an speed advatage, infact the P-40s the tigers used
were even better than the excact same model elswere because they had,
you can say "spare part custom built engines" that gave them much more HP than the original engine did,
cant remember the excact figures now but maybe someone else can post them

and they had superior tactics

ltz1972
11-12-2004, 09:10 PM
.....and just to see who really read up on it...they were NOT p-40's but the Brit variation I do believe....

LTZ

ltz1972
11-12-2004, 09:16 PM
...and yes the AVG did encounter zeros....

http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger2.htm

killer2359
11-12-2004, 10:25 PM
Sorry everyone - I've been mistaken about the Wildcat flat outrunning Zero - I've misunderstood something I read.

Wildcat could certainly oudive Zero tho so gain at least a temporary break - but in PF you can't do this from what I've seen?

Mr_Nakajima
11-13-2004, 02:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ltz1972:
...and yes the AVG did encounter zeros....

http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger2.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they didn't.

At that stage in the war, every radial engined Japanese fighter with a retractable undercarriage was called a zero - and I would defy you to tell a ki-43 or an A6M apart in a real dogfight, especially without the benefit of accurate line drawings to study. The AVG thought they were fighting zeros, as did the British in Burma, but they were fighting Ki-43s (and Ki-27s).

Japanese records are also quite clear on the point - only the Imperial Japanese Army operated against the AVG, the Imperial Japanese Navy and its A6Ms were busy elsewhere

CV8_Dudeness
11-13-2004, 05:01 AM
the Wildcat is a good Match in PF for Zeros

P-40s are even better

DIRTY-MAC
11-13-2004, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_Nakajima:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ltz1972:
...and yes the AVG did encounter zeros....

http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger2.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they didn't.

At that stage in the war, every radial engined Japanese fighter with a retractable undercarriage was called a zero - and I would defy you to tell a ki-43 or an A6M apart in a real dogfight, especially without the benefit of accurate line drawings to study. The AVG thought they were fighting zeros, as did the British in Burma, but they were fighting Ki-43s (and Ki-27s).

Japanese records are also quite clear on the point - only the Imperial Japanese Army operated against the AVG, the Imperial Japanese Navy and its A6Ms were busy elsewhere <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The AVG DID NOT encounter Zeros but there was a very very small amount of them operating in the area, most certainly on trial or recon,
they found some crashed Zeros in the area but they never met them in the air

the main oponent being Ki-43s
and then Ki-27 and also Ki-44s