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View Full Version : Turn fighting- when to just say no?



drose01
01-02-2005, 08:55 AM
I'm starting to sort this out but wanted to get some feedback.

Certain planes you should turn fight and some you should energy fight.

Knowing which planes you have an advantage against and which you dont is the key.

Scenario: you are on/near the deck and meet an enemy, both of you at fairly low altitude and energy.

If you are in a 190 you generally are going to avoid combat until you get elevation and speed back, right? But what if your opponent is a P47?
Who usually wins a turning fight there, given optimal piloting for both? (I think the 190)

How about Spits vs 109s? My perception is the spit usually will win the turnfight, but does it hold through all 109 versions?

My basic sense of turnfighting ability, from best to worst (early war and biplanes excluded)

Ki84, La, Yak, Spit, 109, Corsair, P51, P39/63 Fw190, P47, P38, Bf110.

Is this about right? Please correct/expand, the consequences can be fatal in virtual life!

drose01
01-02-2005, 08:55 AM
I'm starting to sort this out but wanted to get some feedback.

Certain planes you should turn fight and some you should energy fight.

Knowing which planes you have an advantage against and which you dont is the key.

Scenario: you are on/near the deck and meet an enemy, both of you at fairly low altitude and energy.

If you are in a 190 you generally are going to avoid combat until you get elevation and speed back, right? But what if your opponent is a P47?
Who usually wins a turning fight there, given optimal piloting for both? (I think the 190)

How about Spits vs 109s? My perception is the spit usually will win the turnfight, but does it hold through all 109 versions?

My basic sense of turnfighting ability, from best to worst (early war and biplanes excluded)

Ki84, La, Yak, Spit, 109, Corsair, P51, P39/63 Fw190, P47, P38, Bf110.

Is this about right? Please correct/expand, the consequences can be fatal in virtual life!

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 09:45 AM
True, some planes are better than other in term of TnB ability, but to answer your question, I think I would first understand what you want to achieve..

If you want excitment, endless action until you die, then just TnB till the end, it doesn't matter (well, to a certain extent http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) what plane you are in, and what plane your enemy is in. But the odd, even if you are the king of TnB, is that when you are winning one after another TnB fights, someone up high is watching you, waiting for the perfect moment to zoom down and get you, without giving a hint for you to take notice, and without offering a chance for you to escape.

On the other hand, if you enjoy flying realistically, do what a real combat pilot would do, and after all, love your life, you would like to play BnZ more than TnB, or any least decipline yourself when doing TnB (and even BnZ). Plan your attack, then try to get him in one pass.... no matter you hit him or not, extend away and plan again, before you want to do anything else. In this way there may be less "fun" for some people, but this ensure that you can bring the glory home. Some server, especially those for serious players, has a deathkick policy in place, which encourage this style of flying.

but after all, it is your choice, it is just a game.

VW-IceFire
01-02-2005, 09:46 AM
The La-5 and La-7 are better turn fighters than the Ki-84. The 84 shudders and shakes through most turns now. It didn't used to but it hates slow speed turns...its better in the middle (aroudn 350 kph) above its sort of average and below its generally unhappy.

I flew the La7 the other day and found myself still using the same high-lo bnz manuvers I do in the FW190...I do the same in the Spitfire and the Mustang...all I find the turn helps with is a short snap turn to bring guns or cannons to target for the required time to do damage or down the target.

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 09:58 AM
also, there is no way to simplify the equation so that you can compose "the list" you want.... there are so many parameters to determine the relative TnB ability between two planes, for example some plane is a uber turner in high speed, but turn like a pig at low speed... And some otehr plane behave just the opposite...

JG7_Rall
01-02-2005, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The La-5 and La-7 are better turn fighters than the Ki-84. The 84 shudders and shakes through most turns now. It didn't used to but it hates slow speed turns...its better in the middle (aroudn 350 kph) above its sort of average and below its generally unhappy.

I flew the La7 the other day and found myself still using the same high-lo bnz manuvers I do in the FW190...I do the same in the Spitfire and the Mustang...all I find the turn helps with is a short snap turn to bring guns or cannons to target for the required time to do damage or down the target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I usually do the same thing. I used to do more turnfighting back when FB first came out, I think most of us did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But ever since I started flying the jug and 190's, every other plane that I fly I fly in the same manner as those two, even if it can turn well. It's kinda just habit...

Anyways, in the scenarios you gave, I personally think it would come down really close between the 190 and the jug. But if its a really slow fight, the 109 would oust the spit with its current FM. The 109 is great for stallfights with its manual PP, multi stage flaps, and great acceleration. Just my opinion of course - I'm sure there are some really great spit pilots out there who could win either way.

LStarosta
01-02-2005, 10:23 AM
I, like all aces, use vector rolls. In this manner, I outturned a LaGG on the deck in my 190A6. Fact.

FatBoyHK
01-02-2005, 11:15 AM
lol, LStarosta strikes again!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

btw, how to perform a vector roll? I wanna learn http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WOLFMondo
01-02-2005, 11:25 AM
It depends what your in and what your fighting and what speed your going and what height your at.

BuzzU
01-02-2005, 11:27 AM
You underestimate the P-39. I'd put it behind the Spit.

LStarosta
01-02-2005, 11:41 AM
It's basically a high Yo-Yo. Say you are following a stupid Yak. The Stupid Yak is thinking.. "Hmmm this silly Kraut is in a 190 and I can outturn him in my 1337 Yak, so I'm going to turn REALLY hard to the left." As he does this, you're thinking "Oh @$%#, I can't follow him into that turn. What do I do?" Never fear, be sure. What you do here is immediately pull up. Don't wait until you stall, but instead when you get towards the climax of your zoom climb, roll OPPOSITE to the direction of the stupid Yak. What you are doing here is basically Split-Essing into your opponent. When you complete your Split-Ess, you should see him slightly above you. With this maneuver, you effectively eliminate your opponent's turn advantage. This works best in aircraft with excellent roll rates, such as Fw190's but can be used in any aircraft where you do not want to bleed off your energy and still get a turn and burning enemy. The downside to this maneuver is that it might be difficult to track your opponent, even with a TrackIR, so it takes some practice. Fact.

p1ngu666
01-02-2005, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The La-5 and La-7 are better turn fighters than the Ki-84. The 84 shudders and shakes through most turns now. It didn't used to but it hates slow speed turns...its better in the middle (aroudn 350 kph) above its sort of average and below its generally unhappy.

I flew the La7 the other day and found myself still using the same high-lo bnz manuvers I do in the FW190...I do the same in the Spitfire and the Mustang...all I find the turn helps with is a short snap turn to bring guns or cannons to target for the required time to do damage or down the target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I usually do the same thing. I used to do more turnfighting back when FB first came out, I think most of us did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But ever since I started flying the jug and 190's, every other plane that I fly I fly in the same manner as those two, even if it can turn well. It's kinda just habit...

Anyways, in the scenarios you gave, I personally think it would come down really close between the 190 and the jug. But if its a really slow fight, the 109 would oust the spit with its current FM. The 109 is great for stallfights with its manual PP, multi stage flaps, and great acceleration. Just my opinion of course - I'm sure there are some really great spit pilots out there who could win either way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

id agree with that on the 10whine :\. from abit of poking around it seems that 109 has stayed similer last few patchs, but all the other planes have got worse (in the hard to define areas)

oddly a i185 can out turn a ki43 is u turn spin off i think (odd onwhine server, dont ask)
and yes, low/medium speeds http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

BuzzU
01-02-2005, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
It's basically a high Yo-Yo. Say you are following a stupid Yak. The Stupid Yak is thinking.. "Hmmm this silly Kraut is in a 190 and I can outturn him in my 1337 Yak, so I'm going to turn REALLY hard to the left." As he does this, you're thinking "Oh @$%#, I can't follow him into that turn. What do I do?" Never fear, be sure. What you do here is immediately pull up. Don't wait until you stall, but instead when you get towards the climax of your zoom climb, roll OPPOSITE to the direction of the stupid Yak. What you are doing here is basically Split-Essing into your opponent. When you complete your Split-Ess, you should see him slightly above you. With this maneuver, you effectively eliminate your opponent's turn advantage. This works best in aircraft with excellent roll rates, such as Fw190's but can be used in any aircraft where you do not want to bleed off your energy and still get a turn and burning enemy. The downside to this maneuver is that it might be difficult to track your opponent, even with a TrackIR, so it takes some practice. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is it a stupid Yak? It was a good Russian plane that helped them fight off the Germans.

p1ngu666
01-02-2005, 11:56 AM
oh on the turny stuff, depends on pilot, back when the p47d27 couldnt roll, was abit soggy, i could push it around and shoot down 109s, so can good p47 drivers/squads i flew with

LStarosta
01-02-2005, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
It's basically a high Yo-Yo. Say you are following a stupid Yak. The Stupid Yak is thinking.. "Hmmm this silly Kraut is in a 190 and I can outturn him in my 1337 Yak, so I'm going to turn REALLY hard to the left." As he does this, you're thinking "Oh @$%#, I can't follow him into that turn. What do I do?" Never fear, be sure. What you do here is immediately pull up. Don't wait until you stall, but instead when you get towards the climax of your zoom climb, roll OPPOSITE to the direction of the stupid Yak. What you are doing here is basically Split-Essing into your opponent. When you complete your Split-Ess, you should see him slightly above you. With this maneuver, you effectively eliminate your opponent's turn advantage. This works best in aircraft with excellent roll rates, such as Fw190's but can be used in any aircraft where you do not want to bleed off your energy and still get a turn and burning enemy. The downside to this maneuver is that it might be difficult to track your opponent, even with a TrackIR, so it takes some practice. Fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is it a stupid Yak? It was a good Russian plane that helped them fight off the Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


A non-stupid Yak is nothing but a lawndart. Fact.

LStarosta
01-02-2005, 02:10 PM
Also, a very important point with the vector roll and actually any maneuver you perform: Be gentle on the stick and use rudder to coordinate your maneuvers (keep the ball centered). This is very important so that you do not bleed energy. If you perform a vector roll correctly, you will lose very little if no energy.