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Aaron_GT
10-07-2005, 02:34 PM
I saw a recent Mythbusters TV programme in which they were firing various guns into water, including an M1 rifle and a 50 calibre round. Both of these two were full metal jacket rounds but essentially disintegrated almost immediately after entering the water. The tests were conducted at short range from the water, but it would be interesting to see how the disintegration of the rounds on contact with water would relate to strafing runs by WW2 aircraft armed with LMGs or HMGs on light boats and the chances of holing them below the waterline.

Aaron_GT
10-07-2005, 02:34 PM
I saw a recent Mythbusters TV programme in which they were firing various guns into water, including an M1 rifle and a 50 calibre round. Both of these two were full metal jacket rounds but essentially disintegrated almost immediately after entering the water. The tests were conducted at short range from the water, but it would be interesting to see how the disintegration of the rounds on contact with water would relate to strafing runs by WW2 aircraft armed with LMGs or HMGs on light boats and the chances of holing them below the waterline.

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 02:52 PM
Still water or choppy water? Approximately what angle?

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 03:02 PM
hitting water at high speed is like hitting something very very hard.

coastal command used to fire rockets at below the water line

Gibbage1
10-07-2005, 03:07 PM
Did they use FMJ's in WWII aircraft much? What about AP and API's?

F19_Olli72
10-07-2005, 03:15 PM
I saw it as well a while ago. The water was an indoor pool and they fired at approx. 45 degrees angle or there about standing close to the edge of the pool. None of the weapons (iirc they had a pistol and a Garand rifle as well) reached 2 meters below the surface.

SlickStick
10-07-2005, 03:29 PM
Here's a link to the Mythbuster's forum where they discuss the fact that it takes a minimum of 25 feet for the bullet to harden again after firing.

I guess the myth they broke was about firing within 25 feet of the surface of the water.

Mythbuster's Forum Thread (http://community.discovery.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9401967776/m/8921951708)

Friendly_flyer
10-07-2005, 03:38 PM
I saw the program a week or so ago. Firing was at 30 degrees angle. The slower projectiles (shotgun slugs and muzzleloader balls) did best, being lethal 2 - 2,5 meter after entering water.

Even if bullets solidify, they won't have much punch after passing a few meters of water. The opening scene from Saving Private Ryan where the attacking Americans are slaughtered by MG fire having passed through 5 to 5 meters of water is not realistic.

Monty_Thrud
10-07-2005, 05:27 PM
OK!.. you lot get yourselves down the pub...i'm buying...NOW

Ballistic4N6
10-07-2005, 05:46 PM
As a Forensic Scientist with 30+ years of experience, perhaps I can shed some light. The tool (the bullet) is adapted to the target. It is quite apparent that for man-sized targets in the battlefield, over penetration of a body is a waist of energy. Thus penetration of water, or a body which is composed primarily of water, at a residual energy for the projectile in typical range distances will be in a few feet penetration. Hangun bullets are best designed to expend their energy in the distance of a man's thorax, and exiting is not optimal. Small arms have to expend energy dealing with many targets, some with soft or thin armor.

When we get to projectiles that are designed to disrupt or destroy equipment and machinery, tanks, planes, ships, the projectiles are usually "harder" in design, have a greater cross-sectional density, and are fired at larger distances with the expectation of sufficient remailing energy to do the job.

There are projectile/handgun combinations that are desinged to be quite lethal under water, usually carried by military frogmen/SEAL types.

The penetration in water is primarily dependent by the velocity and angle of penetration, bullet design, and resistence to disintergrate.

FMJ>RNL>HP's

Monty_Thrud
10-07-2005, 05:53 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gifOk..i'm ordering doubles

han freak solo
10-07-2005, 09:39 PM
Interesting topic. I love Mythbusters! What a cool job they have!

Anyone ever gone fishin' with a rifle? That's my only experience with this whole water topic. The hardest part was learning to aim below the fish to hit the fish because of the light refraction (is that the correct term?).

When I was younger me and a buddy would fish in a nearby quarry with .22 rifles. Easiest fishin' I've ever done.

Waldo.Pepper
10-07-2005, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are projectile/handgun combinations that are desinged to be quite lethal under water </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SOURCE Please!

I think that is nonsense.

The guns can be carried under water - not fired and remain lethal! Spearguns yes. Bullets no!

winston57
10-07-2005, 10:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think that is nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm

Waldo.Pepper
10-07-2005, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by winston57:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think that is nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmm well I'll be. I read it will my own eyes but I'm still skeptical.

I wonder why the water filled barrel doesn't burst when the gun fires. Anyone?

Daiichidoku
10-07-2005, 11:32 PM
H&K also make an automatic flechette firing underwater rifle, and an electrically fired flechette pistol, the "barrel" is a modular cannister, holding a cluster of (cant recall now, if its 4 or 6 shot) flechettes, firing one at a time, that break off from the grip, reloading means breaking off the module, and replacing it with a new one, snapping it in place...the thing actually looks more like a spotlight than a gun

Pirschjaeger
10-08-2005, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by winston57:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think that is nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmm well I'll be. I read it will my own eyes but I'm still skeptical.

I wonder why the water filled barrel doesn't burst when the gun fires. Anyone? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess would be the combination of the water's fluidity and possibly evaporation.

I do know that snow in the end of a shotgun barrels tends to have a negative effect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

horseback
10-08-2005, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
Interesting topic. I love Mythbusters! What a cool job they have!

Anyone ever gone fishin' with a rifle? That's my only experience with this whole water topic. The hardest part was learning to aim below the fish to hit the fish because of the light refraction (is that the correct term?).

When I was younger me and a buddy would fish in a nearby quarry with .22 rifles. Easiest fishin' I've ever done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>What? No M-80s?

cheers

horseback

Friendly_flyer
10-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Appearently underwater projevtiles are allmost spear-like. I guess it makes sence.

nakamura_kenji
10-08-2005, 03:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/spp1.jpg

can see bullet picture spp-1 ^ ^_^

Ballistic4N6
10-08-2005, 04:09 PM
Sources on underwater firing? Here are 3.
Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners Journals (Scientific Peer Reviewed Reference used by Examiners Workdwide)

Underwater firing of a Beretta 950B at a glass target ...Fall 00 354
Underwater firing, Glock Model 17 ...Apr 88 126
Underwater gun (anti-shark gun) ...Apr 79 86

Cajun76
10-08-2005, 06:48 PM
Ballistic 4N6 (for-en-sics)

Heh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Maybe I'm just slow and everyone else got it the first time.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-08-2005, 09:23 PM
You're not alone Cajun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

Cajun76
10-08-2005, 11:01 PM
*whew* What a relief... I'm in good company. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-09-2005, 04:41 AM
I notice with that Russian gun you really need it to be underwater or it degrades rapidly. Anyway, aiming successfully in water will still give the wielder a hard time, so I reckon a guy on the receiving end still has a good chance of survival.