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gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Ok first off I'm not here to ***** so pls dont flame me and call me a newb.The P-51(in this game)has such a slow roll rate that it is inconceivable to go low alt fighting with it.Sure you can catch someones six allright but if they have any common sense they would roll scizzors and after the first pass your done.The only tactic at low alt is to have an e advantage no matter what.The fact is here that this plane rolls so poorly almost all of the other fighters in this game can out manuver it at low alt.And this was americas trophy plane?The p40 is better than the p51(in this game)in my opinion.Let me know what u think thx.

gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Ok first off I'm not here to ***** so pls dont flame me and call me a newb.The P-51(in this game)has such a slow roll rate that it is inconceivable to go low alt fighting with it.Sure you can catch someones six allright but if they have any common sense they would roll scizzors and after the first pass your done.The only tactic at low alt is to have an e advantage no matter what.The fact is here that this plane rolls so poorly almost all of the other fighters in this game can out manuver it at low alt.And this was americas trophy plane?The p40 is better than the p51(in this game)in my opinion.Let me know what u think thx.

faustnik
01-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Make sure you are patched to 1.21. The Mustang rolls fine in that version.

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VW-IceFire
01-20-2004, 02:09 PM
Well three points of contention from me:

1) The P-51 is one of the best modeled aircraft in the game (in my opinion and that of a good number of others) alongside the IL-2 and a few others that really stand out as being everything we've read them to be. What its doing in the game is fairly close to expected performance (there is no "perfect" level that you can achieve...just varrying levels of accuracy).

2) All pilot reports and flight manuals indicate that with a full fuel load (100% fuel in FB) the P-51 is sluggish, unresponsive, and even dangerous to be doing combat manuvering in. Remember that its an escort fighter with sufficient duration to escort bombers from England to Berlin and back again. No other fighter presently in the game has that ability (soon to be joined by the P-38) and only the P-47 comes close. In any case...its ALOT of fuel. Try using 25% fuel tank which is still longer flight duration than most VVS at full tank and you'll find a much more responsive low alt, low speed fighter.

3) The P-51's roll rate and general manuverability increases above 300kph (generally). While fighting a slow speed stall fight is a possibility in the P-51 its otherwise fairly sluggish at slow speeds. I bet this probably has something to do with the laminar flow wings and overall design which favours high speed over slow speed. Only the FW190D-9 can nearly match the P-51's high speed handeling...keep her fast and you'll take on all opposition.

Personally I use the P-51 as my primary Allied mount in free for all online dogfights and its a deadly plane in all the right ways. Its not super manuverable but its REALLY fast, has endurance, is flexible, and has sufficient firepower to deal with all comers.

She's a good plane, but like any other you have to fight in the right way. Just practice.

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TX-Zen
01-20-2004, 02:09 PM
Don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do find it simple to out scissors a mustang at low altitude in a D9. Granted the D9 has a tremendous roll rate, I'm not so sure I could outscissors it in an La7 for example.

Historically I believe the plane's strength was it's high altitude agility and it's range, but that by itself doesn't mean that it was inferior at low altitude, only that it had an advantage up high.

Seems a little sluggish to me, or perhaps it's spot on and the Dora has too high a rollrate.

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gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 02:22 PM
Thx for the input guys.Yes I understand it was a long range fighter what I was refering to is its low alt performance.Lets say theoretically you come behind a ki or a 109 at 500k within gunrange.It is virtually impossible to stay with that plane rolling side to side at an equal speed.Now as far as other tactics go simply raking them pass after pass witch is what I tend to do at low alt is another thing.Dont even try this on a yak hehee.jeez.

TX-Zen
01-20-2004, 02:33 PM
Most Yak drivers are rightly confident in their bat-turn rate...the plane turns so tightly that almost nothing can BnZ it if executed at the right distance.

Thats great, but the cool thing about BnZ is that you control the fight. The Yak can bat-turn all day but that is inherently defensive and leaves you at little risk.

Effectively then you BnZ him repeatedly, which is your luxury since you are dictating the terms of the fight.

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SpremeCommander
01-20-2004, 02:41 PM
Never fight low and slow in a P-51. It is the one and only plane in the set with a laminar-flow wing*, which gives it marvelous handling at high speed and the opposite at slow speed. The P-51 was designed to accomodate the realities of WWII aerial combat, where speed, and high-speed handling, were critical. In FB you often find the opposite: stallfighting down in the weeds. The P-51 is out of its element in such engagements.


*After the P-51, nearly all high-performance aircraft have been designed with a laminar-flow wing. It was that significant a development.

gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 02:41 PM
yeah thats what I usually do man.What I meant to say was dont get fixated on a yaks 6 or youll be eating dirt in no time.I guess this plane is just out of its element on the ground thx for the advice everyone S~

BM357_Raven
01-20-2004, 03:10 PM
I'd like to test a rolling scissors with you one night Zen.. Just to see how the two planes fair against each other.

PS - Goose, it takes as much unlearning as it does learning to fly the P-51... After flying the Pre-patch P-39, P-40, Yak, and others the 51 is a very different bird. I am not quite at par yet in the 51, but I am getting a helluvalot closer this week.. almost there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 03:13 PM
yeah I know what you mean.I never bring it down low.Or any plane for that matter.Not a big fan of turn fighing which is usually why i get my *** kicked in one on ones lol.by the way let me know if and when u guys conduct this test I would love to see it thx.

Maple_Tiger
01-20-2004, 03:23 PM
Good question gooseman,

Is the roll rate for the P-51 correct? Who knows. I know the D10 has a better roll rate then the P-51 at med speeds. You would think that the P-51 would have a better roll rate and or atleast equal roll rate as the P-47D10 at med speeds.

You realy should not be on the deck any way. You have the La7, Yak, Dora, Bf109K4, and KI-84 wich can out run you at low altitudes. KI-84 and Dora can follow you in a high speed turns.

One trick if your down low with a BF109, La7 and or Yak on your six is to pick up as much speed as you can and break right or left very hard. Dont turn too hard or youl black out. If it works then they cant follow you, but they usualy end up back on your six. Some times you can get a quick deflection shot on them. This does not work against the KI-84 though and i dont recommend fighting down low with the P-51.

Some times when im dum enough or make a mistake and end up down low i can some times fight it out and win but most of the time i end up dead.

Depending on the server i usualy climb to 5000 to 7000m before i look for a fight. Some times higher. when i think i cant make another BnZ pass on a target i will extend and go into a slight climb. Once i reach 7600m i can most of the time get so far away that the enemy plane will usualy just break off.

Usualy before they break off the say stuff like "be a man and fight me" or "Run, run stang Run"

Dont listen these thoughs guys, all they want is for you to turn fight with them so they can shoot you down.

I even had one guy say i was cheating because i would not play his game lol.

faustnik
01-20-2004, 03:28 PM
I colorized the roll chart that has been floating around the forums for a while. P-51 is in blue.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/RollChartClr.jpg

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TX-Zen
01-20-2004, 03:33 PM
Raven, I'd be more than happy to help you compare the two in scissoring. I'm not uber by any means but I really trust the maneuver, it's done me well on numerous occasions. I won't be online for the next couple of days, but sometime later in the week we can hook up if you like.

I'm in Houston TX, USA GMT -6 (CST in the US)

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gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I colorized the roll chart that has been floating around the forums for a while. P-51 is in blue.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/RollChartClr.jpg

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
wow.if thats true then the p39s roll rate is way to high.is there a link for a larger image man?btw tiger I think the service ceiling is below 7k man not trying to come down on you man but going that high on a cockpit server would kinda make it hard to spot targets dont you think hehee?

DONB3397
01-20-2004, 03:47 PM
If you're flying a P-51 at, say, 4,000m with 50% or less fuel onboard...what's the single plane you don't want to see on the horizon?

In FB, I don't worry much about 109's in any variant. But 190's always make me want more altitude. A8's and A9's seem to have better roll rates and D9's take away the climb and speed advantage.

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gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 03:55 PM
yeah i love flying the d9 after i figured out that it has an amazing ability to retain lost alt.nothing like the a9 or 8 if u ask me.go down to the point where its at almost at dangerous speeds and it can still maneuver for the shot then strait back up and if any alt was lost just crank up the pitch with the wep on and its no problem.the a9 has devastating firepower but is more susceptible to to being shot on the rebound.either way i love both of these planes.

Maple_Tiger
01-20-2004, 03:57 PM
Actualy gooseman the service ceiling for the P-51 is 12,800m. Not 7,000m. 12.8km is the P-51's service ceiling.

The P-51 is one of the fastes planes in the game. A 7600m you can out run almost anything.

And yes it is hard to spot targets. If i see know enemy's at 6km or 7km then i look for traser fire. If i dont see traser fire ill ask where the activity is. Once i know there are no enemy fighters at my altitude ill go down for a closer look. Ill go down to about 4500m if its safe. But yes you can spot a plane form 4500m or 5000m.

gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 04:00 PM
heh sry then i was being winged the other day by two goons chasing me in a ki and they were in the 51 they lost power at abo 6.5 and i hit the top at abo 7k.it was summertime.guess it has to do with the atmospere?sealevel?

Maple_Tiger
01-20-2004, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gooseman1981:
heh sry then i was being winged the other day by two goons chasing me in a ki and they were in the 51 they lost power at abo 6.5 and i hit the top at abo 7k.it was summertime.guess it has to do with the atmospere?sealevel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not quit shure what you mean.

At 7.6km altitude wich is 7600m the P-51 should be able to cach the KI-84. 7.6km is the P-51's max speed of 703kmh TAS.

KI-84's max speed of 687kmh TAS is at 6.1km altitude or 6100m. It will reach 687kmh but you have to over heat the engine for a min to do it.

From my speed tests the Ki-84 and P-51 are pretty close at 6.1km. But at 7.6km altitude i found the P-51 to be faster then the Ki-84.

But then the Ki-84 does climb better.

BM357_Raven
01-20-2004, 06:10 PM
rgr Zen,

the next time you see me on H/L tap my shoulder with "roll rate test" and we'll go try it out.. It can easily be inconclusive and will probably take several attempts to come up with a generalized conclusion..

Also, afterwords we should consult each other to see if we were both flying at par.. I am still getting used to the stang (taking me 4ever), but it'll be interesting nonetheless :P

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LeadSpitter_
01-20-2004, 08:27 PM
Also check the times of one roll, theres also no reduced immediate opposite roll.

Check better graphs and read the timing of the rolls, the differences are not as great as the appear in fb

I will setup a flash animation of how the roll timing should look according to charts

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