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View Full Version : Sell a tool were all can make litle changes in FM in OFF-LINE games.



MOH_Hirth
11-11-2006, 02:41 PM
All have this desire: play with FM, power of guns, dives, turns, roll rate, only 10%+/- ... is only for off line fly.

MOH_Hirth
11-11-2006, 02:41 PM
All have this desire: play with FM, power of guns, dives, turns, roll rate, only 10%+/- ... is only for off line fly.

LEXX_Luthor
11-14-2006, 08:18 AM
Thanks BillFish, that makes sense!

If I recall, Oleg said there will be two versions of BoB And Beyond -- online and offline -- and that only officially approved 3rd Party mods (maps, objects, etc..) going through Moscow will make it into the Online version. So yes, the two sim versions can and will be totally walled of as far as preventing independent mods being used for Online cheating. That's my understanding anyways. Have you not heard about this? Or, I read it wrong ...which is normally the case.

BillFish:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In any case......We are talking "Online" play in that what can be done "offline" is done to the very same sim that is used "online". It is quite simply impractical to have two different simulations to grant what you ask for, so in the end, what it does is open up the book (based on the original request to change FMs) on how to do so, grant the ability......

So then all that's left is to determine how to get around cheat protection which quite often turns out to be the easiest part........In the end therefore, offline affects online....So you end up with exactly what I stated above....

Now, I'd be more then thrilled if Oleg added the ability to have "Objects/Maps" added and/or altered by the players.....As a matter of fact, in RB3d that aspect made for some stunning additions by the players. Naturally over the course of time, that eventually translates into cracking the code, so then FMs can be tweaked, planes can be altered/added, and naturally eventually the cheats begin...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unlike the suddenly abandoned Red Baron, Oleg's BoB And Beyond should be in continous development and full Patch support for about a decade -- hopefully. This is where the analogy with Red Baron may break down, as that sim was totally abandoned by the publisher. Oleg will be fully supporting his next sim and won't allow the Online version to be so cracked.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEBillfish
11-14-2006, 09:04 AM
Bob.........WILL be obsolete very quickly after its release.......Now, that does not mean that it will be no good, in fact it may be the best thing going for many years. However, byt the time it is finished being developed to "X" set of standards, theose standards will quickly be replaced with "Y".....If Bob can adapt, great...Yet will only be able to so far. Simply the nature of the beast.

However, though what I suggest could be applied to all sims....I believe MOH_Hirth is speaking of the IL2 series.....So the 1c breaking out aircraft attributes from object etc., would allow what I suggest in my previous post.....As to BoB it simply a matter of building it that way from the start......In that way as well, the aircraft characteristics could be so radically assembled and utilized differently, that that alone would aid in cheat protection....Though there is something to be said for not having 30 line codes to crack vs. 30 million line codes.

Naturally this is all just guessing on my part...As I do not know how the simulation is assembled currently, or will be in the future.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEXX_Luthor
11-14-2006, 10:12 AM
Yes, BoB can adapt, and it will be great. BoB will not be obsolete in the same way that Forgotten Battles is not obsolete today but fully a part of today's FB/AEP/PF/PE2/46. This is called supporting the software over time. Perhaps you would enjoy reading Oleg's poastings on BoB And Beyond and how the later BoB+ addons will all be compatible and all updated over time. Ask crazyivan to point you to some of the sticky links where Oleg poasted about his next sim.

You are also conveniently "forgetting" to tell this community -- even our own "online" community -- that Oleg tries to stay on top of Online cheating and responds quickly in stamping out Online cheating -- indeed at times in a way that cripples the simulation such as the crippling of flight models by disabling elevator trim in an attempt at preventing a tiny number of Online computer gamers from being cheated by elevator slider trim cheats during online gameplay.

As we covered above at the top of this page, as far as I recall, Oleg said that he will offer two seperate versions of his sim that won't allow independent mods in the Online version unless they are approved through Moscow. Again, we suggest you take a look at Oleg's poastings on his next sim BoB And Beyond. Ask crazyivan to help you get started on this program as he/she can direct your attention to several sticky links with Oleg's poastings.

--

Indeed -- the thought of Oleg crippling his own flight models by disabling elevator trim strictly for Online gameplay purposes made me wish we had some type of "tweaking tool" that would have let the paying customers of this sim keep the elevator trim for Offline use -- there are no unfortunate victims of elevator slider cheats in Offline play. A simple Offline option switch to use crippled or functional elevator trim would have been sufficient of course -- but may not have been possible as maybe there was not a good enough wall between Online and Offline play in FB up to Patch 4.00 (when aircraft elevator trim was returned to the customers).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F19_Orheim
11-14-2006, 11:03 AM
hmm I'll keep my comment short, seems like everyone else are elaborating

so here it goes:

No thank you<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 11:18 AM
PLEASE NO TOOL!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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KaleunFreddie
11-14-2006, 11:24 AM
Errr! -Hirth !!!!
Why don't you learn to fly within/exploit that 10% range you're talking about... don't be lazy - this is where the game is at. Those top 10% players who know how to 'do it'..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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MrMojok
11-14-2006, 12:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I'll tell you a quick story: I am working on something, a campaign for the community. It's actually a re-work of something that I did before, but now I can finally make it the way I had originally intended

Long story short- if you could just change the FM in the planes I wnt you to fly, all my careful preparation, all my playtesting, and all my effort concerning how why and when planes arrive at various places and do what they do is up in smoke. All wasted effort, and I have oh, about 500 hours into this thing between research, playtesting, mission building and skinning. I vastly prefer that everyone use the same version of all the planes, so i can plan out what might happen, so the player can see some action and do things as outlined in my briefings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Can you imagine having the player's plane travelling at speeds I didn't count on, and then having a mission goal timeout announce "mission failed"? I can http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Speaking of which, and adding flame to the anticipation-thread fires we have all over the boards, when can we expect When Tigers Could Fly V2, with the Manchuria map?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Beuf_Ninja
11-14-2006, 12:20 PM
BLASPHEMY.. Blas for you, Blas for everyone! Why not just fly the LA-5FN/LA7 it can do anything?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Thou actest right Ahab; live in the game and die in it."

Akronnick
11-14-2006, 02:36 PM
If you want to diddle your flight models, just play Strike Fighters Project 1 and its offspring. Leave Il2 and its children out of the open design field, that's not what it's for.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

MOH_Hirth
11-14-2006, 03:26 PM
I dont explain well...a lot understand wrong, i want mean:
EXample:
In Real Life FW archieve important victores over Spits(real), in auor precious IL-2 is very hard survive in a FW, was really FW so bad? is EXACT the lost energy? Is EXACT aceleration/climb? so i think is a good option in OFF LINE (SAY OFF LINE!I hate all cheaters)can do litle changes, a historic book say 550km/h another historic can say 590...
This is not for do a easy fly but realistic in auor information about planes.
This game is the best in the world, i love it, FM have a passional side and impossible do all happy.
So this toll can give a oportunity test wath we think is the correct, hope you all understand.

ElAurens
11-14-2006, 04:56 PM
Lexx, since when am I not a paying customer?

All those IL2/FB/AEP/PF/PE2 products on my desk were not dropped in the night by the frigging tooth fairy.

And who the hell appointed you as the voice of the "community"?

This little quote:

"When you wish to talk to the community about this "contradiction" or "logical flaw," we are willing to talk."

Is so over the top I cannot believe it. What unmitigated arrogance.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

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"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature" - T.E. Lawrence

AKA_TAGERT
11-14-2006, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
hmm I'll keep my comment short, seems like everyone else are elaborating

so here it goes:

No thank you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>everyone else? Pfffffffft!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

************************************************** **
IF WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.. THAN WHAT THE H IS YOUR QUESTION?
************************************************** **

Lemky
11-14-2006, 08:46 PM
Is LEXX_Luthor Saying that if I want to play on line I must buy the online game.And if I want to play off line I have to buy the off line game.So with this game as I play now I have to buy two games.Thats is funny.God help BOB they must know what they are doing.
Look at the bright side,In the past they release the game for $80.00,and within 2 months it is on the shelves for $19.00

BfHeFwMe
11-14-2006, 09:52 PM
It works the other way also, what onliners do with the game affects the offline.

For instance weilding the hammer to get plane A B & G neutered because it's too good in dominating DF arena, data or not, with no regard that it gets hamstrung in offline campaigns and missions also.

Long time ago this game was making giant leaps into the ground and tactical war simulation arena, but pretty much tossed that all aside. Funny how there's never been active ground movements or fluid battle activity going on in a dogfight map. Coincidence? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Guess that's how we've ended up with Buck Ivannagers Dogfighting Rockets over the Reich played out on the Hawaii map. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-14-2006, 10:07 PM
Bf:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Long time ago this game was making giant leaps into the ground and tactical war simulation arena, but pretty much tossed that all aside. Funny how there's never been active ground movements or fluid battle activity going on in a dogfight map. Coincidence? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Guess that's how we've ended up with Buck Ivannagers Dogfighting Rockets over the Reich played out on the Hawaii map. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea, it started out great on the Easter Front, but seemed to stall later after the focus on dogfight planes in AEP.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Buck Ivan 46. I can get into the Russian vs Luftwaffe 46 Theme, as its solidly different than the industry standard Ussia vs Luftwaffe 46 combat flight sims. But, I'd prefer a "1946" (or 47) theater with Strategic Air Command vs Soviet PVO air defence. All the German ubertech is there on both sides, but no Germany. But that requires a grafix engine favoring high altitude flight, some nukes perhaps, and electronic warfare modelling like planned for the [cancelled] Target For Tonight sim about RAF vs Luftwaffe air defense..

Target For Tonight interview ~&gt; http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/t4t.php<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

rnzoli
11-15-2006, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The players wanting to "cheat" Online are all -- Online players -- every one of them. This does not apply to Offline players </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, that's quite a false statement.

First mistake is that not every online player want to cheat. So fhe majority of the online community (including reputable server operators) is holding tight against cheaters, even though there are several attempts to break the code, or use other exploits against fair play.

Second mistake is that some offline players also "cheat", in the sense that they compensate for their lack of skills with something else than training themselves. They can ease up on difficulty settings and use features not available online (e.g., time skip, autopilot). They can even reduce enemy AI skill levels, if they can't beat them. Just because they do it against AI pilots, it's still cheating http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The only reason why we rarely hear about offline cheating is that AI pilots are unable to come to these forums and complain http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server_2.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

rnzoli
11-15-2006, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Funny how there's never been active ground movements or fluid battle activity going on in a dogfight map. Coincidence? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny how you forget about online coops and campaigns (wars) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif Coincidence? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server_2.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

ElAurens
11-15-2006, 05:30 AM
Thanks rnzoli.

Two very good posts.


The fact that there is no AI ground unit movement has been with the game since the beginning. It has nothing to do with the wishes of online players, the majority of which want ground unit movement badly. I know I do. But, I'm not willing to give up the challenge of playing agianst human opponents to get some tanks running around on the ground.

I do like a good offline campaign now and again, and am waiting anxiously for Chuck_Older's updated WTCF. But with all due respect, the AI's (except for the uber tail gunners) make it all too easy. So predictable, unlike humans, who are far more challenging.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

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"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature" - T.E. Lawrence

jasonbirder
11-15-2006, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do like a good offline campaign now and again...But with all due respect, the AI's (except for the uber tail gunners) make it all too easy...So predictable, unlike humans, who are far more challenging </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, the only reason offline play seems too easy is because, unlike in real life the only real difficulty we encounter is in actual engaged combat with the enemy...
Surely we could make offline play more challanging (and incidently realistic) if we made the planes more difficult to fly, to take off and land succesfully, if we made engine and fual management more important...made the weather a bigger part of the game...more bad visibility, turbulance and crosswinds. If we made the navigation more challanging so just finding your way to the target and back home became a challange in itself...all things that real life pilots had to contend with. Also if we could somehow arrange encounters so the AI was able to get the drop on you occasionally...so the first thing you know is them screaming onto your six at a high rate of closure...tracers flashing past rather than the current predictable mainly head on encounters...always called out by your "all seeing" AI wingmen.
Actual Air Combat Maneuvering was only a tiny, tiny part of a World War 2 fighter pilots life and is something that seems to have been ridiculously over emphasisied by this game series...
So It would be great if everything else became more difficult and the bigger picture of the Air War became more important rather than just the dogfight which is what we seem to have now...
As it is the ability of the AI to defeat or be defeated by a human controlled player in a dogfight is the defining difficulty level of the game whereas in real life...long maneuver based combats where both opponents saw and were aware of each other only made up a tiny percentage of combats...

Chuck_Older
11-15-2006, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:


Speaking of which, and adding flame to the anticipation-thread fires we have all over the boards, when can we expect When Tigers Could Fly V2, with the Manchuria map? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I finish it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I had intended it to be done by Christmas, but with the '46 add-on pushed back, I can't say if that's possible now.

No Manchuria maps by the way, although there are new maps, including Kwangsi province, China and the area of Haiphong, IndoChina. I have finished the first 1/3rd of the re-make, and it is now 23 missions long, whereas before the first third was 11 missions. Something like 68 or 69 missions all together this time, with new movie tracks

I have not had a lot of time lately to update my progress report, but you can see what I've been up to at Mission4Today:

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=132

Lots of work done, lots left to do. I am currently playtesting the first segment, using P.11cs as stand-ins for the Ki-27<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/Jimmychamp.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

WWSensei
11-15-2006, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MOH_Hirth:
I dont explain well...a lot understand wrong, i w

LEXX_Luthor
11-15-2006, 12:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


jasonbirder:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actual Air Combat Maneuvering was only a tiny, tiny part of a World War 2 fighter pilots life and is something that seems to have been ridiculously over emphasisied by this game series...

So It would be great if everything else became more difficult and the bigger picture of the Air War became more important rather than just the dogfight which is what we seem to have now...

As it is the ability of the AI to defeat or be defeated by a human controlled player in a dogfight is the defining difficulty level of the game whereas in real life...long maneuver based combats where both opponents saw and were aware of each other only made up a tiny percentage of combats... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good interview with a developer for [cancelled] Target For Tonight sim of RAF bomber vs Luftwaffe air defence...not much arcade dogfighting needed in this type of simulation.

Target For Tonight ~&gt; http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/t4t.php

...cancelled...so perhaps Lastnight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Good stuff too Sensai -- FM is not the core of immersive air war simulation like some of these computer gamers like to think. Developers may make the same mistake sometimes and fail unless they can charge a Monthly Fee against the tiny number of hardcore competitive flight model enthusiasts.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

joeap
11-15-2006, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

Good stuff too Sensai -- FM is not the core of immersive air war simulation and not knowing this was Oleg's greatest blunder. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm yes it is PART of the core. Who wants planes that are not at least in relative performance like their counterparts. Things like very realistic engine management are extensions of the FM. A realistic FM is prerequisite to interact with realistic weather. Good AI, subject to the same FM limitations of course is also vital.

The rest, the arcade dogfight servers, poorly thought out missions etc. are more the fault of the community IMO. There are realistic and immersive servers and online wars that do a lot of what many want in the community.

LEXX_Luthor
11-15-2006, 01:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

joep:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Things like very realistic engine management are extensions of the FM. A realistic FM is prerequisite to interact with realistic weather. Good AI, subject to the same FM limitations of course is also vital. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tell me, tell the developers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

FM is only a part of the core -- I'll go with that. Early version of StrikeFighters MiG-19S was porked -- could never go supersonic and the 3rd Party B-47 could out run it. Strategic strike or interception simulation is impossible with extreme FM discrepencies like that, so you have a good point and I knew it. Another was the FB 1.0 I-16 which outclimbed the Bf-109K and had indestructable damage model -- we called it the Polikarpov F-16. The primary Soviet 1941 was banned from all servers and Offline players simply could not use it in missions or campaigns. It was fun to "fly" around in but that's what Microsoft sims are for.

Yes, in theory a FM tweaking tool could be useful if the developer does not fix such blunders. Oleg did fix the I-16 (and 109E which also outclimbed the -K) but only after the first critical months of game sales. I always wondered how that slipped by the testers.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-15-2006, 01:32 PM
joep:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The rest, the arcade dogfight servers, poorly thought out missions etc. are more the fault of the community IMO. There are realistic and immersive servers and online wars that do a lot of what many want in the community. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its also a fault of the developer who supports primarily Online Dogfight shooter gameplay and not serious features needed by dynamic Online War and Offline dynamic campaigns (next sim may be different however). Oleg poasted that he does not like dynamic campaigns ("not historical") -- Online Wars are dynamic campaigns. Oleg/<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">UBI[/b] can pay me a Monthly Fee and I still won't sign up for Static Online War. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MLudner
11-15-2006, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Contradiction Alert!</span>

Online players -- every one of them. This does not apply to Offline players The MOH is poasting about, thus we have a Contradiction.


Discussion? Yes? No?

-----------------



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I take exception to this crack. I fly on-line and have no desire to cheat.

Your imprecation is an insult to my personal honor, Sir. Retract or qualify the comment or I'll come find you.

In the meantime:

Get a dictionary and use it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

She Was Like A Bearded Rainbow, As You Said, drinking a Spoonful of a Strange Brew as she screamed "I Feel Free" while she basked in the Sunshine Of Your Love in her White Room at the Crossroads dreaming Tales Of Brave Ulysses during a Blue Condition with her Toad thinking she should Take It Back.

On Hyperlobby: 334th_PROXIMVS

LEXX_Luthor
11-15-2006, 04:54 PM
~Hi~ Mludner. Lets review again the full quote...

Lexx:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The players wanting to "cheat" Online are all -- Online players -- every one of them. This does not apply to Offline players The MOH is poasting about, thus we have a Contradiction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you wish to discuss with the community and learn how only Online players can be the players that want to cheat you during Online gameplay, and never the [purely] Offline players, we are ready to talk with you.

Perhaps we are seeing how Offline players feel -- and how their personal honour is insulted -- when they are accused of wanting to "cheat" Online by some of the more hostile Online players when Offline players ask for more features and options in their software product.

We should reserve our anger or bitterness for the players that actually cheat Online, and not Offline players who also have no desire -- and also no ability -- to cheat Online. Thank You.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-15-2006, 05:11 PM
ElAurens (last page):: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lexx, since when am I not a paying customer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said you were not a paying customer. But, as one rare and honest Online player poasted at the simhq last year, when the first news hit that Oleg would eventually like to take his sims Pay-To-Play ("but not yet time")...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If not for the Offline base, we'd all be paying 12$ a month to fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The paying customers are (or were) almost entirely purely Offline players, although in view of how so many Offline players have abandoned this sim since FB 1.0 and PF, and the decision of <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">UBI[/b] to take 4.05 to download sale only, there is most likely a much higher percentage of Online paying customers today but far fewer paying customers in total -- the sim failed in the market due to lack of development for the Offline customer base combined with a lack of revenue from Pay-To-Play fees -- as well, a lack of <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">UBI[/b] marketing. I heard about FB in its early days only through the Flaker forum.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

rnzoli
11-16-2006, 02:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the sim failed in the market due to lack of development for the Offline customer base combined with a lack of revenue from Pay-To-Play fees -- as well, a lack of <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">UBI[/b] marketing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly denied by the facts of:
- 3 new paid add-ons at the closure of development path
- great interest in the final DVD bundling all patches
- steady inflow of old and new customers buying the game
- great interest in the next product of the same development team.

You try to paint the sims apparent success as a failure, just because YOUR personal desires for this sim aren't fulfilled.

So your master plan is to come back to these forumrs repeated and create an artificial "us against them" situation, pretending that the joy of offline gaming is ruined by the online players. This is really a lame attempt to stir trouble.

Let's just take your desire for larger maps. Even on our current maps, reputed mission builders make compromises vs. historical accuracy, because only a microscopic minority is interested to re-live the entire 90% boredom of real air warfare, that is many hours of uneventful flights on patrol, many hours to/from target, just to have 5 min of actual combat.

It really funny to see how you position your wanted features as something what all offliners want, then speaking up as their representative, then arguing for extra fees to be paid by the minority (~20%) of online players.

Well, here is a reminder for you. Some of the features that you want in IL2 could be interesting (=regularly played) for a fraction of the total player base, probably a considerably smaller fraction than the growing online player base. In that case, it should be YOU who pays the developer extra fees, not the online players.

Referring to this single "rare and honest" online player all the time is laughable. There are thousands of online player, and you always
refer to one that agreed with you? LOL.

Another card trick you play all the time is the pretended "agressive" nature of all online players. First you make slightly insulting comments against them, and when they express their irritation with that comment, you innocently say "you see? I told eveybody. They are very very agressive!"

LEXX, to summarize, it's lame effort to repeat the same tricks every 3 months. I am truly surprised how far you are going this time in making easily deniable statements. I can only take this as a sign of your failure in rallying more true support behind your flag, and this is very very sad.

To be honest, I am absolutely in support of developments in IL2 and in SoW:BoB, and don't mind paying for some of the enhancements you proposed, because I play offline and online too. What I am against is your attempt to put the entire bill of your ideas to the online players.

Finally, remember what is said on the box of the final release of this product:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"The flight sim in this box was built by all of us, a worldwide team of thousands of fans. Thank you, friends, for your support and dedication." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It DOES NOT say ONLINE or OFFLINE friends. We are all in the same family.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server_2.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

joeap
11-16-2006, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the sim failed in the market due to lack of development for the Offline customer base combined with a lack of revenue from Pay-To-Play fees -- as well, a lack of <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">UBI[/b] marketing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly denied by the facts of:
- 3 new paid add-ons at the closure of development path
- great interest in the final DVD bundling all patches
- steady inflow of old and new customers buying the game
- great interest in the next product of the same development team.

You try to paint the sims apparent success as a failure, just because YOUR personal desires for this sim aren't fulfilled.

So your master plan is to come back to these forumrs repeated and create an artificial "us against them" situation, pretending that the joy of offline gaming is ruined by the online players. This is really a lame attempt to stir trouble.

Let's just take your desire for larger maps. Even on our current maps, reputed mission builders make compromises vs. historical accuracy, because only a microscopic minority is interested to re-live the entire 90% boredom of real air warfare, that is many hours of uneventful flights on patrol, many hours to/from target, just to have 5 min of actual combat.

It really funny to see how you position your wanted features as something what all offliners want, then speaking up as their representative, then arguing for extra fees to be paid by the minority (~20%) of online players.

Well, here is a reminder for you. Some of the features that you want in IL2 could be interesting (=regularly played) for a fraction of the total player base, probably a considerably smaller fraction than the growing online player base. In that case, it should be YOU who pays the developer extra fees, not the online players.

Referring to this single "rare and honest" online player all the time is laughable. There are thousands of online player, and you always
refer to one that agreed with you? LOL.

Another card trick you play all the time is the pretended "agressive" nature of all online players. First you make slightly insulting comments against them, and when they express their irritation with that comment, you innocently say "you see? I told eveybody. They are very very agressive!"

LEXX, to summarize, it's lame effort to repeat the same tricks every 3 months. I am truly surprised how far you are going this time in making easily deniable statements. I can only take this as a sign of your failure in rallying more true support behind your flag, and this is very very sad.

To be honest, I am absolutely in support of developments in IL2 and in SoW:BoB, and don't mind paying for some of the enhancements you proposed, because I play offline and online too. What I am against is your attempt to put the entire bill of your ideas to the online players.

Finally, remember what is said on the box of the final release of this product:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"The flight sim in this box was built by all of us, a worldwide team of thousands of fans. Thank you, friends, for your support and dedication." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It DOES NOT say ONLINE or OFFLINE friends. We are all in the same family. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif My bold, I don't consider this sim series a failure either.

Lexx: Glad you understood my points about the FM. Now, about not including tools for the larger online wars you speak about...I agree the devs should include them. I wanted to point out there are already tools to make what you want...online coops, Lowengrin's DCG, and I see no reason to not continue to encourage offline static campaigns of which some are so good. It would be nice if there was some more flexibility in that regard but it is by no means as bleak as all that.

ElAurens
11-16-2006, 05:33 AM
Lexx just comes here to troll these days because his little backwater jet sim is as moribund as DOS games for the Amiga.

And because he got his aZZ handed to him online.

Enjoy your little hijack Lexx, I'm outta here.

And take your conescending "we" of the flight sim community and stuff it, OK?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/ELsKi.jpg

"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature" - T.E. Lawrence

joeap
11-16-2006, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:

And take your conescending "we" of the flight sim community and stuff it, OK? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I wouldn't put it so rudely, but I agree with you he doesn't represent the community. No one person does.

ElAurens
11-16-2006, 10:40 AM
Normally I'm not so inclined to throw invective, but this whole Onliners are teh H1tl3r thing of Lexx's is just too much.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/ELsKi.jpg

"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature" - T.E. Lawrence

LEXX_Luthor
11-16-2006, 04:57 PM
I was (choke) wrong. And sloppy.

Lexx Slop:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The players wanting to "cheat" Online are all -- Online players -- every one of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Apologies for that. The sloppy addition of "every one of them" can give the idea of "every online player" but ... its not the intention. Sorry.

~&gt; All online cheaters are online players.

That is where we need to direct our hostility and bitterness, and not toward the Offline customer base who may ask for more features or options in their sim.

Thanks joep. I was thinking today -- the deepest core of this sim is not FM but "anti-cheat" protection for online play. All seem to agree that this is Oleg's greatest strength. Recall, if you were here a few years ago, how elevator trim was disabled in an attempt to stop online cheating using elevator slider trim (bat turns). Offline players at this webboard begged for elevator trim and some "real life" commercial pilots at this webboard who also played Online told them...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elevator trim is only used for straight and level flight

and...

Elevator trim was never used in combat

and...

Elevator trim is always very slow in all aircraft
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is scary to see "real life" commercial pilots poast that on a webboard. What was going on here was professional, "upstanding," or otherwise intelligent people see Online fighter combat gameplay as a very important part of their life, and they brutally attack anything that they see as threatening their Online hobby (ie...cheating most importantly) -- including attacking and insulting Offline players asking for functional elevator trim in their World War 2 flight models. A fella/fellate named RayBanJockey made a mockery of them through great satire. Thankfully, New FM of Patch 4.0+ (pre-BoB FM) seems to almost require functional elevator trim, and it was returned to the customers.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-16-2006, 05:03 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
ElAurens::<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And because he got his aZZ handed to him online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, someday perhaps yes!

crazyivan has suggested that if we don't like a thread, we may avoid it -- I assume unless we can contribute without insulting other players. If we wish, we may start our own thread with "ON-LINE" in our thread title. Granted, somebody (Mludner) did have to challenge my Sloppiness in this thread. I think MOH has seen enough also.

rnzoli:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Referring to this single "rare and honest" online player all the time is laughable. There are thousands of online player, and you always refer to one that agreed with you? LOL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He/she was the only online player -- that I recall -- who was or is honest and willing to talk about this. We shall continue to refer to this unknown online player's poasting as needed until we can someday have our own discussion.

Thanks<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MOH_Hirth
11-16-2006, 08:29 PM
I say OFF-LINE game because in online is much more complex and can give a chance to cheaters.
This sugestion isnt for people want a easy game, but for pilots want fell the OLEG power change all you think can be more realist by your vision historic, this is very good if you love this game, and more work and suport for auor friend SUPER OLEG.

LEXX_Luthor
11-17-2006, 12:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

SUPER OLEG

That needs a cape and pic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif