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jugent
09-18-2005, 02:17 AM
If you look at the statistics of the war-clouds server the statistics of all allied aircrafts is negative. They became more often killed than they kill.
How is that possible?
The spit IX outcurves all german fighter except G2 at normal speed.
It outclimbs every german fighter at 100% power.
It got more firepower than the 109:s and 190D9.
The P51 outcurves, outspeeds, outclimbs all Fw190 (not in speed between 3to6K D9)
How can they loose?

jugent
09-18-2005, 02:17 AM
If you look at the statistics of the war-clouds server the statistics of all allied aircrafts is negative. They became more often killed than they kill.
How is that possible?
The spit IX outcurves all german fighter except G2 at normal speed.
It outclimbs every german fighter at 100% power.
It got more firepower than the 109:s and 190D9.
The P51 outcurves, outspeeds, outclimbs all Fw190 (not in speed between 3to6K D9)
How can they loose?

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 02:22 AM
Spit IXc is the one with significant tnb advantage IMHO.
About P-51 that isn't so surprising since they weren't used that way in real life (like they are used on servers for the by many users).
They weren't used in real life does not automatically means that they were bad in that kind of low/med alt fights, but in duel with Messerschmitts they will most likely lose the fight on lower alts.

ImpStarDuece
09-18-2005, 02:27 AM
Ask yourself, if your a western game player who has just bought IL2/PF and want to fly Western Front, what are you going to jump into? How many REALLY good pilots do you see in Spitfires and Mustangs, compared to the amount of beginners you see in them?

I also doubt that the IX ouclimbs EVERY German fighter. Most of the mid to late 109s would outclimb it by a hefty margin.

You also have to realise that sustained turning isn't everything in combat. If it was then the Ki-43 or the Gladiator would be the best plane in the game. Instantaneous turn, climb, dive, roll, visibility, stability, stall speeds, high speed handling, energy retention all play a large role in combat as well.

Both the Mustang and the Spitfire IX use two stage, two speed superchargers that perform best at altituds above 6500m. Most servers seem to top out at about 4500-5000 meters. Additionally, both fighters are better at high altitude combat than their opponents, the problem is that you see everybody stacked in conga lines at 1500-3000m. 190s are much better fighters at this level and the 109 energy fights much better at this altitude than it does at 20,000 feet plus.

The Spitfire also has the disadvantage in terms of speed against its opponents. Most servers have the 109K and late G models, as well as the 190D9. These aircraft are significantly faster than the Spitfire at all altitudes, meaning that the Spitfire cannot disengage if it ends up at a disadvantage.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 02:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
The spit IX outcurves all german fighter except G2 at normal speed.
It outclimbs every german fighter at 100% power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You will in fact find that late Bf-109s are outclimbing Spitfires. Bf-109G-6AS/10/K4 are awesome climbers... better than Spitfire MK.9e. In game.

I don't think this is about who can turn better, but rather who have more energy. That wins. IMHO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The P51 outcurves, outspeeds, outclimbs all Fw190 (not in speed between 3to6K D9)
How can they loose? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

About outcurving I don't know I have never really involved myself in pure tnbing with P-51 vs FW-190, but FW-190D-9_44 climbs better than P-51D. You can test that in game. Also A-8 and A-9 will outclimb P-51D in climb from deck to 5000m. I don't have to mention that Bf-109G-6AS/10/K4 will also outclimb P-51D.
All that in game.
When you say that P-51 outclimb FW-190, I presume you mean you have some data from real life then.

Tully__
09-18-2005, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you look at the statistics of the war-clouds server the statistics of all allied aircrafts is negative. They became more often killed than they kill.
How is that possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the time I've spent on WarClouds the Axis team is using significantly better teamwork than the Allied side. Better teamwork = better kill/death ratio.

I have to say that I have been part of the allied problem on occasion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

geetarman
09-18-2005, 06:22 AM
Too bad you could not go back three or four months and check the WC stats then. During 3.04 you would not see this floor-mopping as you see now.

As far as I know, 4.01 made two big changes in the sim - the German 20mm was changed to include a round it should have, but never had in prior patches and the FM was changed.

Your answer is in there.

ploughman
09-18-2005, 06:31 AM
Is Hristo banned again? Normally he'd be on this like white on rice.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 06:41 AM
TBH I don't know if he is banned from UBI forums. There were rumours that he is banned on WC, but noone mentioned UBI forum afaik. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I liked his style although many folks were annoyed by his "ace" approach to matter.

tigertalon
09-18-2005, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
The spit IX outcurves all german fighter except G2 at normal speed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, IMO, worst turning spits (CWs) still outturn best turning Bfs (F2/4/G2)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
It outclimbs every german fighter at 100% power.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Late Bf109 outclimb spits, especially the rocket climbing K4.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
It got more firepower than the 109:s and 190D9.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

D9 IMO has WAY better armament compared to spit. Firstly, it has double the ammo supply (cannons on D9 have 250rpg, on spit 120rpg, machineguns on D9 have 475rpg and on spit 250rpg). Secondly, spit's armament is mounted in wings, out of prop arc, D9 has all armament concentrated in the nose and in wing roots, so close to longitudional axis. This makes it effective at shooting from point blank to some 500m away, while with spit's armament you cannot do it.

For Bf109s, again, we have a factor weapons in nose, and if you take late 109s, they don't even have an option of nose 151/20. And 108 plus two 131s are way stronger armament compared to spits guns. Especially now, when 108 is IMO unrealisticaly accurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
The P51 outcurves, outspeeds, outclimbs all Fw190 (not in speed between 3to6K D9)
How can they loose? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, P51 is a deadly opponent for Antons, whenever I fly Anton and see Mustang with alt advantage, it frightenes me. Still, Fw190 outdives it and outguns it. And not to mention, it can take way more of his .50 potatoes than vice versa http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Ask yourself, if your a western game player who has just bought IL2/PF and want to fly Western Front, what are you going to jump into? How many REALLY good pilots do you see in Spitfires and Mustangs, compared to the amount of beginners you see in them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

VW-IceFire
09-18-2005, 07:28 AM
Reasons:

1) Blue generally has better experienced pilots and work together as a team
2) Spitfire's are 1943 specification fighting 1944/1945 aircraft in WarClouds (in other places its different
3) Mustangs are often poorly understood by pilots on the Red side...generally a good FW190 pilot finds himself at home with the Mustang (minus the firepower)
4) Myths prevade better thinking and the pilots just assume they can get out by using their supposedly superior plane
5) Bf109G-10, K-4, FW190A-9 and FW190D-9 are impressive and powerful late war fighters with few Allied aircraft that match their performance levels. Only the P-51 models the P-38L Late and perhaps a well flown P-47D-27 can match these for their impressive and powerful performance. This isn't really anything to be surprised about as those were some great aircraft produced for the Luftwaffe.
6) The balance of power in terms of fighter-bomber and ground attack is definately slanted in the Allies favour so you may see some losses incured by fighter-bomber pilots falling prey to a stray Blue fighter. The A-20, B-25, P-38, and P-47 are all excellent ground attack aircraft and may skew the results slightly.

PBNA-Boosher
09-18-2005, 08:23 AM
Pilot, not the plane. pilot, not the plane, pilot, not the plane....

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-18-2005, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
TBH I don't know if he is banned from UBI forums. There were rumours that he is banned on WC, but noone mentioned UBI forum afaik. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I liked his style although many folks were annoyed by his "ace" approach to matter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For those that missed it.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/4141001153

A sad tale indeed, it all becomes clearer near the bottom of page 1.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 08:48 AM
Roger that L-Flyer, but I don't see him on this forums lately as Ploughman suggested... I know about that wc episode (and that specific thread), but I can't recall that he was banned from UBI.

------------------------------------------------

Also I have just noticed that this is about War Clouds. Well maybe on some other server allies have better stats, and axis worse. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Grey_Mouser67
09-18-2005, 08:50 AM
I'll offer an alternative opinion...statistically, on war clouds, the pilots are of similar skill over time and the difference is the aircraft's performance. I've flown on both sides and I've flown on different servers.

The biggest reasons I feel that is because I, personally, think the teamwork is similar on both sides...red might be more objective focused and therefore take more ordinance, but by and large on Teamspeak there are large gaggles of red and blue fighters working together. In addition, my own statistics increase when I fly blue planes. I kill more, I am killed less and I can disengage in blue planes at will. Can't do that in Spitfires.

In my last batch of flying on Warclouds, I flew a P-51 alot...D-20 and Mustang Mk III. I listened to coms, went where my team mates were, came in with speed and disengaged and repeated. During a couple of days on and off flying I suppose I collected 10 kills or so and I NEVER once saw one of them go down...a couple I got smoking but more often than not I flew away and i got the "enemy aircraft destroyed" message 10 minutes later. That is part of the problem too. I was killed in the Mustang by stalling into the ground, being dewinged on several occassions, being rammed by a friendly...the usual but only once can I remember coming back to base with battle damage where I would have wound up a statistic for another player.

No, I don't believe in a master race of blue pilots...I think its hogwash and sounds like some of the crapola Hitler was spouting during WWII. I suspect that the aircraft match ups aren't quite right and there are weapons issues and DM issues.

I was on one map that was 1944...had A6, A8, G6 and G14 vs. Spit, J lighting, L lightning, B mustang etc....and then for some reason the map maker threw in a Dora for kicks and giggles. Doesn't make sense...the Dora and K are the best fighters in game and the A9 is right behind it in my opinion.

If there is a relationship between the pilot skill and those statistics, then I would say the best pilots tend to gravitate towards the best planes...those that I just mentioned.

As far as the spit is concerned, it will out turn the late war spits but I don't have success out turning a G2 and it is about even with a G6A/S...and if the G6AS does one of those semi vertical turns, he will gain an advantage due to superior climb. The spit has the weaponry though, and because of that I can often get good kills in it and the Lightning.

Why Warclouds has a G2 in it, I really don't know...for me, I fight differently based on whether I'm fighting a late war 109 or a G2...yet another factor.\

I still challenge the Warclouds map designers to change planesets if they think the pilot quality is better on blue...give blue Fw 190A4 and G2 and see if the superior blue pilot can maintain their positive kill ratio.

Just look at the PTO maps...especially those without the Ki-84 for the answer to that question....maybe all the good pilots on that server are flying red.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 08:55 AM
I think you have wrote several good points there Grey_M, IMHO. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pacomo
09-18-2005, 10:41 AM
i own il-2:fb merged pf and i sometimes like to play online (even if i dont write on this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

i used to fly almost escusively blue (mostly Dora), but then i decided to give red a try, and jumped into a p-51.

I've been flyng the pony for some time now, but i always get better results in the dora, despite the fact that those two planes have similar performances and require similar tactics.

why i do better in a FW than in a '51?

-armament: many people understimate the importance of this, but in my opinion its the decisive factor, along with max speed, that makes a successfull plane in a DF enviroment:
if you have a weak armament you will need more passes to down your opponent, the fight will last longer and you will be more likely to be bounced by enemy fighters. In addition the armament is foundamental for a fighter with a reduced low speed maneouvrability (do you think the FW would be such a killer if it had the set of weapons of a ki-43?)

-add to that the fact that the red team is often outnumbered, and you understand why, as you are coming up from a dive and look over your shoulder, you see a moltitude of blue fighters ready to chase you.

-late 109s are much more dangerous than spits IX . they are faster, they climb better and they just need one shoot to kill you. if a spit bouces you you have some chances to make it home, if it happens with a 109 you're pretty much dead.

note: i'm not whining http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif just expressing opinions.
sorry if there are some mistakes english is not my language.

Targ
09-18-2005, 10:57 AM
Last time I flew on warclouds a map came up that had 1943 German planes vs American late war planes ala 1944.
Yes, blue did some damage thru better tactics and teamwork.
Why a single 44 spit thinks they can take on 4 to 6 190 a6's is beyond me.
Many blue have flown online wars in a g-6 or g-6 late against La5N's for so long that warclouds is like a wet dream. Heck, gimme the 190 A4 thru A6 or the G-6 series on warclouds, the results will still be close to the same.

jugent
09-18-2005, 12:03 PM
I have been outclimbed by a spit IX in a 109K in sustained climb from 5k to 8k.
I have always been outclimbed in a D9 if the oponent is a P51 P38 or a spit.
I think that the majority of the spitjocks hurl themselfes to soon into the thickest furball and pray for luck.
Many blue flyers have learnt the art of patience.
I feel at home in the P51 after flying the FW but the P51 is more forgiving.

I find the MG:s of the pony enough powerful.
But my heart belongs to the spit.
If you have the skill of disengage in time, fly together with a wingman, and dont attack the first enemy you see, the spit is a winner.

italianofalco
09-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Sorry to all "blue fighters credo only" but it isn't really a matter of "pilot skill" or "patience" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif most people fly both sides as you know . The answer is easy: the reason it's because and only that BLUE planes are more easy to fly in this game and have a better armament, only that is

VW-IceFire
09-18-2005, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
I have been outclimbed by a spit IX in a 109K in sustained climb from 5k to 8k.
I have always been outclimbed in a D9 if the oponent is a P51 P38 or a spit.
I think that the majority of the spitjocks hurl themselfes to soon into the thickest furball and pray for luck.
Many blue flyers have learnt the art of patience.
I feel at home in the P51 after flying the FW but the P51 is more forgiving.

I find the MG:s of the pony enough powerful.
But my heart belongs to the spit.
If you have the skill of disengage in time, fly together with a wingman, and dont attack the first enemy you see, the spit is a winner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How on earth was that Spitfire catching you in a Bf109K-4? The K-4 is a rocket...not like a rocket IS a rocket. Odd...very odd.

Mouser's got it right for sure I think. There are a few issues too.

Xiolablu3
09-18-2005, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pacomo:
i own il-2:fb merged pf and i sometimes like to play online (even if i dont write on this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

i used to fly almost escusively blue (mostly Dora), but then i decided to give red a try, and jumped into a p-51.

I've been flyng the pony for some time now, but i always get better results in the dora, despite the fact that those two planes have similar performances and require similar tactics.

why i do better in a FW than in a '51?

-armament: many people understimate the importance of this, but in my opinion its the decisive factor, along with max speed, that makes a successfull plane in a DF enviroment:
if you have a weak armament you will need more passes to down your opponent, the fight will last longer and you will be more likely to be bounced by enemy fighters. In addition the armament is foundamental for a fighter with a reduced low speed maneouvrability (do you think the FW would be such a killer if it had the set of weapons of a ki-43?)

-add to that the fact that the red team is often outnumbered, and you understand why, as you are coming up from a dive and look over your shoulder, you see a moltitude of blue fighters ready to chase you.

-late 109s are much more dangerous than spits IX . they are faster, they climb better and they just need one shoot to kill you. if a spit bouces you you have some chances to make it home, if it happens with a 109 you're pretty much dead.

note: i'm not whining http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif just expressing opinions.
sorry if there are some mistakes english is not my language. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree.

p1ngu666
09-18-2005, 04:16 PM
5k is where the k4 starts droppin its ROC ice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

plus the db engine is startin to get abit breathless, while the merlin is doing ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Ob
09-18-2005, 06:17 PM
The 109 have not the sustained turn of the spit9 but as soon as the spit loses its energy the 109 can climb, wich the flippy spit can not.
Especially the 109K4 can point its nose up and climb from stallspeed steeply and fastest of the 109's.
Fw190 has a harder time vs spit9 and need teamwork or energy advantage to try fighting but outguns both the spit and p51 and is more likely to kill or cripple in one pass wich make up for its disadvantages in turnfighting.

P51 cant turn with 109's in slow speeds or scissoring but can turn in for single passes with enough speed. As soon as the p51 gives up its speed he is likely to lose against the better turn, accelleration, climb and slowspeedhandling of the 109.

The 109 is the main killer because of its performance and especially the 30mm cannon (I belive) wich need 1 hit in most cases to seriously damage or kill any fighter and usually one sprays 30mm wich makes one hit likely.
The 20mm guns of the spit9 aren't bad but mostly need more hits aswell as do the 50 cals of p51.

So every plane that are likely to kill in one pass like the 109 or fw190 will be the victor in the long run compared to those who need more hits.

I would also say that the lack of combatflaps is a serious mistake in the spit wich gives the 109 more control of the turn.
Still the spit is better in the sustained turn and has enough energy to be a killer more often than the spit5.
The spit and the 109 are close enough in performance so the 30mm cannon is what I belive is the winningfactor.

Kuna15
09-18-2005, 06:25 PM
Big gun. Rate of climb. Good manouverability. Acceleration. Speed.

Can one imagine better advantage? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

GR142-Pipper
09-18-2005, 07:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Ask yourself, if your a western game player who has just bought IL2/PF and want to fly Western Front, what are you going to jump into? How many REALLY good pilots do you see in Spitfires and Mustangs, compared to the amount of beginners you see in them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The Spitfire is about the only plane that is competitive on the War Clouds server with the 109s/190s. I'm not a beginner and enjoy the game but that's the truth of it. Why is this the case? It's quite straightforward: Oleg and company have chosen to program the planes that way. It's the very same thinking that has resulted in the 109G-2 turning at near Yak-like rates. Specifically, it's ficticious.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Spitfire also has the disadvantage in terms of speed against its opponents. Most servers have the 109K and late G models, as well as the 190D9. These aircraft are significantly faster than the Spitfire at all altitudes, meaning that the Spitfire cannot disengage if it ends up at a disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not necessarily. Disengagement for those with lesser speed is altitude-influenced. The more altitude you have, the better position you are in to disengage.

By the way, in real life I'd take a P-51B/C/D over any 109 (you pick the mark) at ANY altitude ANY day. Not so in this game.

GR142-Pipper

p1ngu666
09-18-2005, 07:51 PM
Ob, the 109s flaps where wound by a amazing and complex object

the pilots hand.

none of this F and V business or flaps on a slider for real heros of teh luftwaffe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
09-18-2005, 11:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:


By the way, in real life I'd take a P-51B/C/D over any 109 (you pick the mark) at ANY altitude ANY day. Not so in this game.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You HAVE to be joking Pipper. ANY altitude? Surely you know your aviation history a little better than that?

The P-51B/C/D, wonderful airplane that it was, simply wasn't a low level dogfighter. In a low speed, low E enagaement a 109 is going to out-turn, out accelerate, out climb and out roll a similar period P-51.

The P-51 is simply a better HIGH SPEED, HIGH ALTITDE fighter than the 109. I'm not saying that the P-51 was useless down low, but that the margin of performance was in the Mustangs favour up high rather than at seal level. Put a P-51 in a knife fight at below 10,000 feet with a 109 and, given equal pilots, the P-51 is more likely to lose.

Here is a comparison done between the 109K4 and the P-51D, planes that entered service within 5 months of each other.

Bf 109K-4 Statistics:

Engine: Daimler Benz DB-605D with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,000 HP.
Max. Speed: 727 km/h. (452 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1,470 m/min (4,823 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 2,673 kg. (5,298 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 3,148 kg. (6,940 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 3,373 kg. (7,438 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 9.97 m. (32.7 ft.)
Wing-Area: 16.4 sq.m. (176.6 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 1x 30mm cannon (MK 108).

Bf 109K-4 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 191.9 kg/sq.m. (39.2 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.06 .
Airfoil: NACA 2R1 14.2 - 2R1 11.35.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.2% Tip= 11.35%.
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.48 . (No slats or flaps deployed)

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 129.69 kg/sq.m. (26.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.57 kg/hp. (3.47 lbs/hp.)

Bf 109K-4 Additional features:

-Automatic-Slats & Flettner-Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & Friese ailerons.


P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,720 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1,060 m/min. (3,478 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,175 kg. (7,000 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,286 kg. (9,449 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,487 kg. (12,096 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.83 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 196.33 kg/sq.m. (40.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.28 . (No flaps deployed)

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 153.38 kg/sq.m. (31.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.49 kg/hp. ( 5.49 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

---------------------------------------------------------- ------
Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Wing CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Automatic leading edge slats info:
Slats extend up the range of AoA where the airflow stays attached to the wing. Without slats a wing would stall at a certain AoA, the airflow turning turbulent at the same moment with a sudden enormous increase in drag. With slats the airflow stays non-turbulent for some extra amount of AoA, and there will not be any "stepped" increase in drag when the slats deploy, only at the point where even the slats cannot prevent the wing entering a stall. The automatic-slats work at all speeds, and significantly increase the stall angle and CL-max of the airfoil.


Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wing Cl-max were obtained from:

Bf-109: from full scale Windtunnel test in Charlais Meudan.
P-51: from Naca Report 829, Page 26 in the PDF of the Naca Report server.

carguy_
09-19-2005, 12:22 AM
The patch did have a hit on the balance of gameplay.A MG151/20 armed 109 would have to close in on 70m to score a kill with 3-4 shots but after 4.01 120m is enough.
I dunno bout Warclouds but in Czech War there is a table showing best alive pilots.There have always been vast majority of LW pilots` names and maybe 3-5 VVS names in the first 20.

You will get hammered if you T&B too long.If you ask me VVS pilots have a big problem with SA.You have to know how to create a number advantage in a zone and you need to know when to get out of the combat zone,particulary when things go bad.

MK108 still makes a difference due to 3-5 hits needed but most of the time those armed with it run short of ammunition whereas MG151/20 equipped planes can engage up to 7 fighters effectively(shoot them down).

Does Warclouds run winter maps from time to time?One could check out a difference in LW performance between summer maps.
LW rules in all winter maps.

Significant point is also that you won`t find n00bs in FW190.N00bs don`t like it.Most of the time you are facing a guy who flew hundreds of hours in it,who has a minimum of one buddy with him.

GR142-Pipper
09-19-2005, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
By the way, in real life I'd take a P-51B/C/D over any 109 (you pick the mark) at ANY altitude ANY day. Not so in this game.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You HAVE to be joking Pipper. ANY altitude? Surely you know your aviation history a little better than that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> First, I'm not joking at all. Second, I never said anything about low speed/low E. Down low simply don't get slow...ever. It's the same in an F-4 Phantom. It too wasn't a great dogfighter below 400 knots but if you keep your speed up and pay attention to what you're doing, you could do just fine down low. Speed is critical.

Like I said, in real life I'll take a P-51B/C/D over any 109 any day at any altitude...but not in this game.

GR142-Pipper

Kocur_
09-19-2005, 02:17 AM
ImpStarDuece! Great post! So much technical information, so little... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BigKahuna_GS
09-19-2005, 04:08 AM
S!

You left several things off in your comparison of the P51 vs 109

Real Life P51D :

A P51 would not show up over germany fully loaded with fuel. A fully loaded P51 almost had the same wingloading as a fully loaded 109K4. Since the P51 carried so much more fuel than the 109, as the P51's fuel burned off it's wingloading and powerloading would improve at a much greater percentage than the 109. Buzzsaw had a great post on this comparing fuel loads to wingloading for the P51 vs 109/190.

Advantage P51 better wingloading over all late model 109s (fuel burned off)
Advantage P51 better combat range
Advantage P51 better visibility
Advantage P51 better fuel available- grade 130, grade 150
Advantage P51 better engine over-boosting (late USAAF models 72" Hg ETO--PTO 81" Hg--same as Brits Mark IIIs & IVs)
RAF Mustang Mark IIIs & IVs 25lbs boost/81" Hg===400mph+ TAS sea level
Advantage P51 better high altitude performance
Advantage P51 better moderate to high speed manueverability (all altitudes)
Advantage P51 better gun platform (moderate to high speed)
Advantage P51 Dive superiority
Advantage P51 cleaner design/lower drag C/O
Advantage P51 higher mach number
Advantage P51 combat flaps actuated electricaly(fast)and at higher speeds.
Advantage P51 better energy retention
Advantage P51 high speed cruise
Advantage P51 K-14 gunsight
Advantage P51 G-Suits



The P51D vs 109 in IL2

Advantage 109 climb rate-(as in real life) but then throw in prop pitch exploit. I have seen 109s helicopter straight up from an almost zero energy state.

Advantage 109 dive superiority--not historicaly accurate in either dive acceleration, mach number or energy retention. P51 loses out where it should have the advantage.

Moderate to high speed manueverability--too close to call because of-trim slider exploit---So the Mustang loses in this area where it should have a clear advantage.

Advantage 109 gun platform--even though the 109 had no rudder trim in real life, it flys very simple and easy in IL2 with almost no torque effect. The 109 seems to track on rails while the P51 balances on the head of a pin with a nasty yaw swing whenever the trigger is pulled sending bullets off target.

Advantage 109 weapons strength (online) While the 109 had a very powerful weapons set in real life, the P51 having 6 .50cals was somewhat equivelant to having 2-20mm guns, the 6 .50cals were very effective weapons against enemy fighters in real life. The .50cals need to be unsynced and the nasty yaw swing--eliminated--more stability is needed in the P51 flight model.

Advantage 109 high altitude performance.

So you take away the P51's historical strengths of dive superiority, energy retention, high speed manueverability, stable gunnery platform and high altitude performance--- what do you have left ?

A non-historical performing P51D.



__

anarchy52
09-19-2005, 04:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I still challenge the Warclouds map designers to change planesets if they think the pilot quality is better on blue...give blue Fw 190A4 and G2 and see if the superior blue pilot can maintain their positive kill ratio.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think WarClouds should not be used to evaluate the relative performance of the aircrafts in the game. In furballs aircraft with bigger guns always win (and guns don't get much bigger then FW-190). As for pilots, I find the average pilot quality in DF servers is quite low compared to most online wars.
In Warclouds high scorers are anal types flying big guns. Nothing more to it. Always that minority of patient pilots praying on large majority of cannon-fodder (which tend to fly Spitfires for some strange reason).

As for your "challenge" I think it's silly. "It's the pilot not the plane" simply isn't true whatever you migh have been told. It's the combination of plane and pilot. I've never been shot down by an aircraft nor have I been shot down by a pilot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
Just look at the PTO maps...especially those without the Ki-84 for the answer to that question....maybe all the good pilots on that server are flying red.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In PTO there is no competition. That's probably why very few people on HL fly PTO. But spit IX vs 190D-9 isn't even remotelly similar to flying Zero/Ki-61 vs P-38.

P.S. I got a whisper from a little bird that in the future on warclouds there will be more Pony's and 109s and less 190s. FW-190 in 4.02 burns like Zero, the above mentioned bird told me. Think of it in terms of "fuel leak of death" of 3.04, only this time it's not the fuel tank leak...

Kuna15
09-19-2005, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
I think WarClouds should not be used to evaluate the relative performance of the aircrafts in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"It's the pilot not the plane" simply isn't true .. It's the combination of plane and pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree on these observations.

Vipez-
09-19-2005, 10:59 AM
Kahuna, if you are caught in a dive by 109 with P51D, you are doing something.. err.. wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Seems like to me, you do not have the patiency required to fly the P51 effectivily..

TooMuchCheese
09-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Think i'll get me a beer and some popcorn, this is going to be fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IBTL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

faustnik
09-19-2005, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vipez-:
Kahuna, if you are caught in a dive by 109 with P51D, you are doing something.. err.. wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Seems like to me, you do not have the patiency required to fly the P51 effectivily.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very hard to gain any seperation at anything less than top speed. Yes, you can dive away from the Bf109 but, you have to start at a very high speed and use a very long distance to dive and extend.

lrrp22
09-19-2005, 04:14 PM
Hello Imp,

To be fair, that comparison is very generously tilted towards the K-4. It represents a theoretical configuration for an underweight (~400 lbs) K-4 with a boost/power level that was rare and very late, if it was used at all. The 452 mph figure is the estimated top speed for an experimental 4-bladed prop installation, and Flettner tabs were apparently never introduced.

Other than the fact that the quoted weight is a bit light (~200 lbs) for the fighter configuration, the P-51D figures are the most conservative available.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:

Here is a comparison done between the 109K4 and the P-51D, planes that entered service within 5 months of each other.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ImpStarDuece
09-19-2005, 05:21 PM
Irrp,

If you have other figures that represent the best case scenario for a P-51D, go ahead and redo the statistics I have posted with your own figures. I am always open to other interpretations of the data.

The figures I have are cut and pasted from another webboard that I frequent, and probably are tilted to slightly favour the 109. Its not my comparison, but one that someone else had done and that I plaguarised. I also knew that it would get some peoples knickers in a twist, which is why I posted it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Still, they do moke for some very interesting reading.

HeinzBar
09-19-2005, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I still challenge the Warclouds map designers to change planesets if they think the pilot quality is better on blue...give blue Fw 190A4 and G2 and see if the superior blue pilot can maintain their positive kill ratio. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
Warclouds caters to a crowd that expects 'their favorite planes' to be in rotation 24/7. What we call the 'WF open planeset', is for those players that enjoy flying a variety of western front planes. So, one can expect to see p51d20, 109g2, 109g10/K4, Spitfire IXe/HF, Fw190a/d, etc. These planes are based on popularity for the most part w/ a pseudo-historical western front map setup.

The above mentioned planeset is what the majority of the maps over. However, there are 8 or so specialty maps which feature earlier planesets like 1943, early 1944, and 2 desperate maps which force the Axis pilots to fly 1943 planes while the Allies have an open planeset. Regardless of the planeset, the whole goal is to provide a competitive and fun server for all to enjoy.

So, the challenge has been accepted and implemented into the map sets. The majority of players enjoy the maps, but Warclouds can't please everyone as much as the admins try. Please remember that the open planeset option is the 'bread and butter' of Warclouds and the specialty maps are for variation.

Sincerely,
HB

lrrp22
09-19-2005, 06:05 PM
I have, repeatedly, but no one listens! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway, those figures are presented to favor the K-4, but quite a bit more than just slightly!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Irrp,

If you have other figures that represent the best case scenario for a P-51D, go ahead and redo the statistics I have posted with your own figures. I am always open to other interpretations of the data.

The figures I have are cut and pasted from another webboard that I frequent, and probably are tilted to slightly favour the 109. Its not my comparison, but one that someone else had done and that I plaguarised. I also knew that it would get some peoples knickers in a twist, which is why I posted it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Still, they do moke for some very interesting reading. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Codex1971
09-19-2005, 07:31 PM
S! "jugent"

It seems to me your getting caught up too much on the specs v specs of the plane sets, I was like that during my early days on WarClouds. Like so many have said before me it's the pilot that determines the fight not the specs.

I've read your a Spit lover and I'm sure you have got some books on the Spit but one book I have started reading is "SPITFIRE A Complete Fighting History" by Alfred Price (ISBN 1-85648-015-1). I'm finding this is an excellent book that tells of actual pilot experiences rather than rehashing specs about all the models of the Spitfire, it goes into detail what tactics pilots used when in combat.

If you haven't read it try and get your hands on it, I find its a great learning tool, although I'm using to find weaknesses in the Spit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

GR142-Pipper
09-20-2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The figures I have are cut and pasted from another webboard that I frequent, and probably are tilted to slightly favour the 109. Its not my comparison, but one that someone else had done and that I plaguarised. I also knew that it would get some peoples knickers in a twist, which is why I posted it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This says it all.

GR142-Pipper