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SeminoleX
01-25-2005, 07:59 AM
A first hand account as related in ZERO by Okumiya & Horikoshi.

This incident occured during the attack on Yamamoto and is recorded by Vice Admiral Ugaki, a passenger (who survived the attack) in the second GM4 accompanying the Commander in Chief:

The P38 hung relentlessly on our tail, pouring in his deadly fire. The bomber's 7.7 machine guns could not reach the approaching fighter. The enemy pilot closed in rapidly and opened fire beyond the range of our defensive guns. First his fusilade crashed into the right side of our plane and then into the left. The drumming sounds vibrated throughout the craft which rocked from the impact.One by one our defensive guns fell silent. We knew we were completely helpless and waited for the end to come.

No uber gunners here it seems.

Gawwad
01-25-2005, 08:11 AM
Hmmm... do u have a point? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

SeminoleX
01-25-2005, 08:28 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif If Il2 gunnery standards were in effect the Vice Admiral's account might have read:

Before the attacking fighters approached within 1,000 yards our defensive gunners,firing single short bursts, shot the gunsites off all the enemy planes.

After that, every single fighter in the flight was ripped to shreds regardless of the position or angle of atttack.

After eliminating the attackers our Betty continued on to land safely at our destination with only a few minor holes which were quickly repaired.

jensenpark
01-25-2005, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif If Il2 gunnery standards were in effect the Vice Admiral's account might have read:

_ Before the attacking fighters approached within 1,000 yards our defensive gunners,firing single short bursts, shot the gunsites off all the enemy planes.

After that, every single fighter in the flight was ripped to shreds regardless of the position or angle of atttack.

After eliminating the attackers our Betty continued on to land safely at our destination with only a few minor holes which were quickly repaired._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL! Good one...and so true!

uberchuckie
01-25-2005, 08:44 AM
I never get close to the Betty from dead-six. The rear 20mm always rip me a new one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FluffyDucks
01-25-2005, 08:47 AM
So true....IBTL. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

J_Weaver
01-25-2005, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif If Il2 gunnery standards were in effect the Vice Admiral's account might have read:

_ Before the attacking fighters approached within 1,000 yards our defensive gunners,firing single short bursts, shot the gunsites off all the enemy planes.

After that, every single fighter in the flight was ripped to shreds regardless of the position or angle of atttack.

After eliminating the attackers our Betty continued on to land safely at our destination with only a few minor holes which were quickly repaired._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Sad but true!

RAF_Pagan
01-25-2005, 09:31 AM
I can't believe the restraint everyone has shown in not making an off color reference to the title of this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actionhank1786
01-25-2005, 09:38 AM
Well personally i like to talk to her while it's all going on, i mean no one wants a little suprise...
wait what was that comment about color?

blairgowrie
01-25-2005, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF_Pagan:
I can't believe the restraint everyone has shown in not making an off color reference to the title of this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was certainly thinking about it. Then I thought maybe Betty was his wife.

Iron-Works
01-25-2005, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blairgowrie:
I was certainly thinking about it. Then I thought maybe Betty was his wife. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

SeminoleX
01-25-2005, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF_Pagan:
I can't believe the restraint everyone has shown in not making an off color reference to the title of this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif////well...most of us are out of high school.


.

AWL_Spinner
01-25-2005, 10:29 AM
Well it made me laugh!

What does that say about me I wonder...

chris455
01-25-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gawwad:
Hmmm... do u have a point? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think his point should be obvious.

For all his genius, Oleg is, like many of us, a man of opinons. Some of these, like the idea that tanks shot down planes with their main guns in large numbers in WWII, or gargantuan muzzle flashes, he has wisely chosen to discard.
Others, like the impossibly uncanny accuracy of any type of AA fire, whether it be defensive fire from bombers or flak, he grimly clings to to this day.
It is a great point, albeit from an anecdotal source.

Dunkelgrun
01-25-2005, 11:50 AM
Something that I read recently, I
think maybe on the Second Yamamoto Mission website (?), said that the gunners in the two Bettys had only one box of ammo for each gun.
If so, that quote could have come from after the rear gunner had blazed his box away.

I should organise my favourites a bit better, then I'd be able to go to the quote. Sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Cheers!

TAGERT.
01-25-2005, 11:57 AM
I B DOWN WITH THAT!
http://membres.lycos.fr/jamieolp/imagesj/bettytest3.jpg

eddiemac0
01-25-2005, 03:14 PM
JESUS TARGET, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!!!!!

VW-IceFire
01-25-2005, 04:29 PM
Sounds like that version of the Betty didn't have a 20mm cannon to protect the six. I think that was a later addon.

TAGERT.
01-25-2005, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eddiemac0:
JESUS TARGET, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What part dont you understand? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

badaboom.1
01-25-2005, 05:08 PM
HEY TAGERT,Thats all good!!!Just tell Barney to keep his pants on will you please? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Longjocks
01-25-2005, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
If Il2 gunnery standards were in effect the Vice Admiral's account might have read:

_Before the attacking fighters approached within 1,000 yards our defensive gunners,firing single short bursts, shot the gunsites off all the enemy planes.

After that, every single fighter in the flight was ripped to shreds regardless of the position or angle of atttack.

After eliminating the attackers our Betty continued on to land safely at our destination with only a few minor holes which were quickly repaired._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, man. That put a smile on my face for the day.

And TAGERT, your pic extended it to a teethy grin.

WTE_Chunder
01-25-2005, 05:46 PM
I think you guys miss something substancially.

The accuracy of of flack makes up for other discrepancies, e.g you would never be able to have as many flack guns as normally needed if you were making a bombing run on an industrial complex.

Also, the game is a:
s - i - m - u - l - a - t - i - o - n
which in essence means that if you had the current amount of guns and they were all bloody bad shots, hardly anyone would really bother to jink at all or change heading to avoid the flack. You've seen this syndrome before, where KI 84 lc pilots or p 47 pilots or any tough fighter plane with a lot of power, simply shows no care for taking a head on pass, simply nothing would happen. Or the KI pilot that rams his bomber because he ran out of cannon and is used to killing everything no matter what the cost.

ack ack is a thing that just is. Repercussions from attacking it are bad and such. In some cases it isn't often accurate enough, for instance pilots can take low level attacks on airfields, with several active units firing and get away pretty easily, which was not the case in ww2. Airfieled attack was very dangerous.

If you can program the difference into ack ack for all the different scenarios, why don't you offer your services to 1c?

Likewise the bomber argument. Flying into a bomber formation with a formiddable amount of defences wasn't an easy task, ang given the plane limits in PF again it is a go between to make up for that discrepancies.

Mind you, I attack bombers from the preferred attack angles, and most of the time make the kill easily enough, but I laugh with most peoples attitude, sitting in the tail gunner of a b 25 whatchin an 84 lc approach me from behind. Practically a stationary target, yet it says it all for the contempt a lot of people have for attacking a bomber in the wrong manner.

I guess what I am saying, is that I am glad of the repercussions that exist given the inherent slackness of some of the flying I see out there deserving to die to put it bluntly.

RWetterholt
01-25-2005, 06:23 PM
It's all about improvising your tactics.

"Nothing is true in tactics."

Don't sneak up on Betty from behind, she will lift her skirt and spray you with all the bad stuff. You've got to hit her from the front, where all the vital stuff is. Engines, piloting compartment...then she goes down like a ton of bricks. It works. It may take some time setting up for hed on pass after head on pass, but if you get good enough (and I am in no way saying I am good...), you can improvise and model your tactics in a way where the tail gunner or any gunner for that matter, only gets a very small window of opportunity to get so much as a bullet near you. Anyways...rear is very bad way to go. Just m two cents.

heywooood
01-25-2005, 06:38 PM
which Betty is he talking about ?!!

I am not even going to try to respond here I am so confused....no ...that wouldnt be like me.

I guess it depends on how well her rear is defended, no?... if there are multiple layers of defense to pass through, then I will fetch her a drink.... If on the other hand the frontside presents itselt to 'repeated headon passes'...well... that story tells itself, doesnt it. One way or another - Betty is going down....and if she takes me with her?...so much the better.

you guys are killin me...seriously.

SeminoleX
01-25-2005, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Chunder:
I think you guys miss something substancially.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah.... we ain't missing nuttin'. We already were aware of everything you wrote.

Just having a bit o' fun with what is the reality of living...or constanly having your gunsight shot off... in an Il2 world.

EnGaurde
01-25-2005, 06:59 PM
the point REALLY is... is when will we see panic in AI?

when will pilots wig out and spin their aircraft.... gunners jump out of their ack ack and run for their little pixelated lives?

when will we see pilots wing waggle and drop gear?

when the leader is shot down when will the rest of the squad break up and scatter?

when will we see bomber gunners spray ammo around the sky in abject fear of their lives (and if you fly close enough you can hear their little frenzied screams?)

if we are going to programme life like behaviour into things, lets not forget the breaking point eh?



ps: mmmm Beh tty...

heywooood
01-25-2005, 07:00 PM
I love attacking Bettys from the rear...repeated attacks are most effective.

Frontal attacks and high side - acute angle erect...ermm... deflections are possible against Bettys too... personally - I like taking on formations of Bettys...more chance of success.

VBF-83_Hawk
01-25-2005, 07:04 PM
Amazing, only one reply regarding the 7.7 mm gunner on Yamomoto's Betty vs the 20mm on PF's Betty.


Wake up folks!

heywooood
01-25-2005, 07:07 PM
Bollux!