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jurinko
03-04-2004, 04:03 AM
We easy fight vs 190 here. Even vs Ki-84.
Imposibility to go from a speedy dive was real illness of this plane (test of NACA and recall of US pilots). Its why there was designed special airbrakes finally and they are present on J model.
Real Turn time of P-38 is beter than P-47 and worse than 190. As more higher as more worse than other single engine fighters.
However if to speak about two engines fighters, probably P-38 is most best from all of them, but anyway worse than single engine best fighters.
P-38 is good in stall at slow speeds due to two engines and no torgue effect that eliminated by different direction of propellers rotaion. Some american pilots stated that the stll characteristics was better than these on 109, but it isn't true, if you will look NACA reports about critical angles of the wing to the airflow and the same type of characteristic is worse then on any 109 (however excellent for 2 engine aircraft).
However it doesn't means that it will be better than 109 44 or FW-190 44. It was worse.
P-38 is good only for B&Z and only this tactic used for this plane against Japanese planes.
In Europe it used mostly as ground attack planes in final. Same with P-47. Do you think why?

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

jurinko
03-04-2004, 04:03 AM
We easy fight vs 190 here. Even vs Ki-84.
Imposibility to go from a speedy dive was real illness of this plane (test of NACA and recall of US pilots). Its why there was designed special airbrakes finally and they are present on J model.
Real Turn time of P-38 is beter than P-47 and worse than 190. As more higher as more worse than other single engine fighters.
However if to speak about two engines fighters, probably P-38 is most best from all of them, but anyway worse than single engine best fighters.
P-38 is good in stall at slow speeds due to two engines and no torgue effect that eliminated by different direction of propellers rotaion. Some american pilots stated that the stll characteristics was better than these on 109, but it isn't true, if you will look NACA reports about critical angles of the wing to the airflow and the same type of characteristic is worse then on any 109 (however excellent for 2 engine aircraft).
However it doesn't means that it will be better than 109 44 or FW-190 44. It was worse.
P-38 is good only for B&Z and only this tactic used for this plane against Japanese planes.
In Europe it used mostly as ground attack planes in final. Same with P-47. Do you think why?

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

Magister__Ludi
03-04-2004, 04:06 AM
Yes I know why the most expensive fighters in USAAF arsenal (P-38 and P-47) were relegated to ground attack role. Everybody knows.

St.G77_Sturm
03-04-2004, 04:15 AM
I do wish some of the P38 whiners look at this post instead of shouting "why is my P38 not able to outurn this crap Fw190"

AWL_Spinner
03-04-2004, 04:22 AM
There also seems to be a fair body of knowledgable US aviation affictionados on here who approve of the P38's handling, in line with historical information and the limitations of the FB FM engine. Which is refreshing. It was like this when the P51 arrived, for a bit. Hopefully it'll settle down after few weeks.

It's interesting that there appears to be a hardware related handling distinction though, a la Gibbage's posts. To be fair, perhaps a lot of the whines are from those on who's machine's this manifests itself. Time will tell.

Whatever, she's a beaut, thanks 1C and Gib.

Cheers, Spinner

buz13
03-04-2004, 04:38 AM
Actually the dive brakes are on the L model I believe.

WhiskeyRiver
03-04-2004, 05:13 AM
J's were also fitted with dive flaps.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

tsisqua
03-04-2004, 06:07 AM
Everyone,

I don't care how this plane was FM'd. I will fly it to it's strengths, and I WILL be successful with this plane . . . And this is the first plane that I have EVER said that about! Thank you Gibbage, for the 3D model, and thank you, Oleg, for doing what you think is best for its realism. Now, if I could just get a copy of AEP. :(

Tsisqua

Hunde_3.JG51
03-04-2004, 06:08 AM
The J was fitted with dive flaps eventually, but wasn't it only the last 210 P-38J-25's produced? This was certainly after the '43 version we have.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Extreme_One
03-04-2004, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by tsisqua:
Everyone,

I don't care how this plane was FM'd. I will fly it to it's strengths, and I WILL be successful with this plane . . . And this is the first plane that I have EVER said that about! Thank you Gibbage, for the 3D model, and thank you, Oleg, for doing what you think is best for its realism. Now, if I could just get a copy of AEP. :(

Tsisqua

I'm with you on this one - although my bird will be the Spit mainly - I'm really looking forward to flying the P-38.

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the RAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html).

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-raf_sig.jpg

Showtime_100
03-04-2004, 08:18 AM
I once got to spend some time with a P-38 pilot. He was working at a Nissan dealership as one of those shuttle-bus guys and drove me home one day. If I recall, he tested the brakes as we left and I asked him about it since it was curious and he mentioned he'd been a pilot and things went from there. I expected an ex-airline pilot but he told me he flew 38s in the Pacific. He then related he's a member of a group of pilots who meet every Wed morning for breakfast and sometimes some who come from all over the world. He seemed to have great respect for [edit name back in when remember but name slips me for a moment though he's a biggie] who when pressed for what he really thought of the P-38 stated "they would let their rookies take on the P-38." It sounds as though the P-38 wasn't respected much in the European theater. However, this pilot flew in the Pacific and he stated they NEVER let their speed slow. I told him about a game I played "Aces High" and he was very intrigued and I told him I considered the Spitfire the scourge of the arena and he also stated with the L and boosted controls he could "box turn" a Spitfire...whatever "box turn" meant. We sat in the van for a while as we talked and talked but I finally had to go. He gave me his card with his e-mail but I found out shortly after that his health was going and he could no longer do the driving and he never answered my e-mail when month's later I'd gotten the courage to e-mail him to see when they were meeting for breakfast again. I do remember his being listed on the P-38 Vets web site and I could probably find him again though I recently tossed the card.
Basically, I think Hyperlobby is as far from WW2 combat as can be. There is no attrition and real loss of life and so no real incentive to fight another day. It's all about the fight right now. From speaking with pilots and reading accounts, it was rare that anyone would allow themselves to slow down for a 1v1 knife fight because you become meat on the table for anyone else who happens by and it wasn't a virtual life. From most of my readings and discussions, many pilots had no qualms about disengaging for home if a position of advantage could not be gained. Do that in Hyperlobby and some will berrate you. Historically, most kills were when the attacker was never seen and/or from slashing snapshots and not 1v1 joust duels like most game players are after and in this setting I don't think the P-38 will do as well as some hope. Still, I plan on making the P-38 my 2ndary ride with the P-51B my main mount...when I get Aces that is.

p1ngu666
03-04-2004, 08:26 AM
its got a NASTY stall, something i wasnt expecting, also some wing damage and its real handful :\

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Showtime_100
03-04-2004, 08:27 AM
Found the pilot I spoke with. Robert Waggoner, pictured bottom right on this page:
http://www.p38assn.org/aboutus.htm

Now if I can only remember the German pilot he spoke of... I can picture him but I'm having a brain-fart with the name!

Zen--
03-04-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by tsisqua:
Everyone,

I don't care how this plane was FM'd. I will fly it to it's strengths, and I WILL be successful with this plane . . . And this is the first plane that I have EVER said that about! Thank you Gibbage, for the 3D model, and thank you, Oleg, for doing what you think is best for its realism. Now, if I could just get a copy of AEP. :(

Tsisqua


Amen brother, that is the most refreshing thing I've heard in a long time.

<S!>

-Zen-

EKat58
03-04-2004, 09:10 AM
Showtime_100

Nice post. I'm sure your encounter with a real WW2 fighter pilot made quite an impression on you. Too bad you've lost track of him as he is indeed a very rare bird.

I also liked your opinion regarding the lack of "fight another day" attitude in the df arenas. The FBDaemon/DCG servers probably create the only environments with some kind of penalty for death. I'm participating in a squad-only online COOP campaign (AI War) in which death or capture has little consequence. This creates an attitude where low-level ground attacks are preferred over high level dive bomb or high level bombing attacks. Resetting pilot stats on death or capture would probably create caution and downright fear. Paul Lowengrin's Dynamic Campaign Generator (DCG) has that feature now. But, DCG needs a little more work in tracking online pilot stats before it will be accepted for tracking an AI War.

Oops. Getting off topic. I will stop now. :)

EKat

RxMan
03-04-2004, 09:25 AM
I seem to remember quite a while back reading that the P-38 had the most effective rudders in the buisness, and if used properly could compensate for some of it's lack of agility. Has anyone noticed if this is noticeable? I pre-ordered my copy from UBI, what a dummy. Now I have to wait for it..

Bearcat99
03-04-2004, 09:42 AM
Simon....you are gonna like the Spits... especially the clipped winged ones. They are stallable...barely...but recovery is so easy. The firepower isnt bad either. Rolls nice. I like it. Im still in "Oooooo the Aces Pack!!" mode so basically Im just jumping around but I think all the planes are great. Once we get the B-25s we will actually be able to do some historical missions with the 332nd, 31st and 81st....

Showtime_100
03-04-2004, 09:49 AM
I remembered the name, it was Gunthar Rall he'd asked his opinion about the P-38. I guess Gunthar Rall has been out here before to meet with this group and was expected to come out again after I'd met Bob. Bob made Gunthar sound like a very nice and respectful guy. And his comment about the P-38 almost like he didn't want to hurt Bob's feelings when he said they let their rookies go after the P-38s.
I should just stop by one day, he said a groupu of pilots try to meet at the Denny's here every Wed morning. But this conversation took place probably just about 2-years ago now.

Korolov
03-04-2004, 09:54 AM
Hmm, don't have any problems manuvering with Fw-190s here, especially the late ones. Only thing is when they use rolling scissors, forces you to break off.

Fw-190 and P-38 are very evenly matched.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Extreme_One
03-04-2004, 10:11 AM
oops duplicate post!

Extreme_One
03-04-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Simon....you are gonna like the Spits... especially the clipped winged ones. They are stallable...barely...but recovery is so easy. The firepower isnt bad either. Rolls nice. I like it. Im still in "Oooooo the Aces Pack!!" mode so basically Im just jumping around but I think all the planes are great. Once we get the B-25s we will actually be able to do some historical missions with the 332nd, 31st and 81st....


Cheers Bearcat.

I'm really, really looking forward to flying this baby! Even if there are issues - you won't hear any whining from me...

Does the performance of the eliptical wing FEEL right too though? I so love that wing-shape that she'll be the first baby I fly.

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the RAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html).

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-raf_sig.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
03-04-2004, 10:15 AM
There's more to the Gunther Rall story - in fact he was nearly shot down by a p38 during an intense low-alt dogfight with his dora - he escaped only because the 38 was running low on fuel and had to disengage. When pressed he also admitted that his statement about the 38 was more the opinion of some he flew with than his own.

That said - there is enough diversity on the subject of this planes performance to support almost any opinions. I definitely agree with Oleg's approach to this and will also fly this one to it's strength's as modeled.

Just look at the arguments over the p39 - and that one really is less controversial since so many vvs pilots flew it and there is no denying their record.

Bearcat99
03-04-2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Extreme_One:
Cheers Bearcat.
I'm really, really looking forward to flying this baby! Even if there are issues - you won't hear any whining from me...
Does the performance of the eliptical wing FEEL right too though? I so love that wing-shape that she'll be the first baby I fly.


They both fly nicely...but the CW is definitely more agile. You will enjoy them both. I hope we get a Tempest, Meteor and a Lancaster... :) I can dream eh? This sim with these FMs just blows my mind.. I hope BoB doesnt come out till 2006 just so I can enjoy this more.. I cant imagine how good it will be.

Showtime_100
03-04-2004, 10:31 AM
Nagual, I'm more a jet fan so my WW2 knowledge is certainly lacking with most around here. But I thought I once read that it was Galland in a Dora who got into a low alt luftberry with a P-38 and then years later met the same guy at a conference and said "you almost killed me!" Maybe it was Rall. All I can relate is my brief experience in chatting with a 38 pilot and what he told me Rall said.
Has anyone ever met a pilot unexpectedly and when you do, all of a sudden you have no clue what to ask?

ZG77_Nagual
03-04-2004, 10:55 AM
Your right! my mistake. The rall quote sounded just like the galland one.

It sounds like there were ways of flying the 38 and some pilots really adapted to it.

Didn't mean to sound like I was finding fault -you did great.

My uncle flew alot of the navy birds (well, pretty much all of them) - still does airshows in his pitts and he's pushing 80!! But it would be pointless to talk with him about anything that won't land on a boat.

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Thu March 04 2004 at 10:15 AM.]

adlabs6
03-04-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Korolov:
Hmm, don't have any problems manuvering with Fw-190s here, especially the late ones. Only thing is when they use rolling scissors, forces you to break off.

Fw-190 and P-38 are very evenly matched.

Good to hear this. I've never had trouble fighting with the 190's, so I'm encouraged for the P38. It's an interesting plane, should be some good fun.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
My FB/FS2004 Pages (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/)

Showtime_100
03-04-2004, 11:08 AM
Be clear though, Wagonner related that the German rookies were let loose on the P38s and the veterans or experienced guys would go after other aircraft. When that was possible to do. It's not really a compliment to the P38 and Wagonner made it sound as though Rall really didn't want to even say that or anything negative and Waggoner had to pry an opinion out of him. In just a few brief sentences, made RAll to sound like a really good guy.

I just finished this book and here's an excerpt, take it as you may:

Pgs 146-147 of "Jungle Ace."

"What matters is this: the 9th did not like the P-47 and Neel Kirby was not the man to sell it to them. In fact, when Neel and Jerry began discussing the merits of the Thunderbolt over the Lightning, tempers flared almost immediately. As the heated exchange turned to a red-faced shouting match, they challenged each other to a duel--Jerry in his P-38, Kirby in his P-47. Though the proposed match never occurred, **** Bong and Neel Kirby squared off against each other over Port Moresby. Exactly when this took place is in doubt, but those who witnessed the fight, including Wally Jordan, recalled that it was an epic struggle. Kirby threw his P-47 all over the sky, doing things with it that nobody thought possible. Bong, on the other hand, was silk-smooth, precise, and aggressive in his P-38. By all accounts, they fought each other to a standstill. Though no clear winner emerged, the Flying Knights who witness the scene gave the edge to **** Bong, probably out of loyalty to their top ace."

LilHorse
03-04-2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Showtime_100:

Basically, I think Hyperlobby is as far from WW2 combat as can be. There is no attrition and real loss of life and so no real incentive to fight another day. It's all about the fight right now. From speaking with pilots and reading accounts, it was rare that anyone would allow themselves to slow down for a 1v1 knife fight because you become meat on the table for anyone else who happens by and it wasn't a virtual life. From most of my readings and discussions, many pilots had no qualms about disengaging for home if a position of advantage could not be gained. Do that in Hyperlobby and some will berrate you. Historically, most kills were when the attacker was never seen and/or from slashing snapshots and not 1v1 joust duels like most game players are after and in this setting I don't think the P-38 will do as well as some hope. Still, I plan on making the P-38 my 2ndary ride with the P-51B my main mount...when I get Aces that is.

Very well put. I wish the gamer types (oops, don't mean to start a flamer here) would understand that. That's why pure DF rooms are pretty much jive, with scripted servers being not much better. They're good for practicing flying, SA, gunnery etc. But not a real good scenario for using many of these planes to the strengths they possessed. This is why I very much prefer VEF (yeah, I know, it's my mantra by now). It really places more value on surviving and completing missions (even if you have to run away). I know it's nothing like the real deal (afterall, I've died at least a dozen times in VEF). But it is more immersive in that what concerns you is more realistic. If you haven't tried it, you should.