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Ernst_Rohr
04-04-2007, 10:09 AM
The P-39 is one of the most underrated fighters in the game, particularly in the Pacific. Flown right, the P-39 is more than competative, and its models and revisions are availible throughout the war, and stay stong performers.

Early war, the P-40 seems to be the preferred ride, but that is a disservice to the P-39. Mid war versions are also overshadowed by more famous aircraft, and once again, its a disservice to a fine fighter.

P-39 Strenghts-

Visibility:
Forward, vertical, rearward, and downward visibility in the 39 is excellent, particularly when compared to many of its contempararies. Lateral visibility is hindered by the top of the door frame.

Speed:
From sea level to 7000ft, the 39 is one of the fastest fighters in the game early war. The D2 variant in particular has unmatched speed at low levels. Lack of a superchager means that speed and performance drop off as the altitude exceeds 10,000ft, but it is still a respectable performer until the 15,000ft level, where it starts to suffer noticably.

Engine Management:
The P-400/P-39D1/D2 all lack boost, but the upside is that the planes can be run maxed out at 100% almost indefinately if you pay attention to the prop pitch of the aircraft and moderate attention to the radiators.

Firepower:
The firepower of the 39's ranges from good to superb. The weakest of the series are the P-400/P-39D1 with only a 20mm cannon in the nose. All later variants mount the 37mm cannon, which is absolutely devastating against aircraft. Using the 37mm takes practice, as it has a very marked ballistic trajectory. If used properly, its a one shot weapon. VERY few aircraft in the game can take a hit from the 37mm and continue flying.

Landing:
The 39 series is one of the easiest to land aircraft in the game. The combination of good visibility plus the tricycle landing gear configuration means that the plane is very easy to land.

Weaknesses;
Stall Characteristics;
One thing the 39 series is infamous for is its leather stall characteristics. Due to its midbody engine, the centero gravity is right in the center of the plane. This means that in many cases the plane will stall and start to rotate around the center of gravity, resulting in an unrecoverable flat spin.

Flat Spins:
Your in BIG trouble if you put one of these birds into a flat spin. If you dont have a signifigant amount of altitude (which you wont most of the time) your better off bailing out immediately. Otherwise, you only have a short period of time to get the nose down and attempt to recover. Trimming full nose down, full stick forward and full rudder are really the only responses to this. Some pilots will also apply full flaps and drop the landing gear in and attempt to dirty up the airflow enough to force the nose down. DONT count on this working! If you dont have altitude, BAIL OUT.

Damage;
A particular weakness of the midengine design is that its remarkably easy to get hit in the engine on the 39 series. Due to the location of the engine, and the proximity to the fuel tanks, fires are not an uncommon result of signifigant engine damage. Once a fire starts, it can be difficult to put out(diving is the only option), and as the engine heats back up after extingishing it, its quite common for the fire to reignite.

So what does all this mean?

P-400/P-39D1
These planes are actually the exact same aircraft. The P-39D1 was the export version of the P-39D in army service, but the cannon was down rated to a 20mm. The USAAF adopted some of these planes as the P-400.

Pacific- The 400/39D1 is substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, with an average of 50+kph over the Zero and 70+kph against the Oscar. Against the Japanese fighters, its stictly a B&Z bird. The smaller 20mm cannon works quite well against all Japanese aircraft, although the Betty/Sally can take several hits from it and keep flying.

Stay high, stay fast and DONT TURN against the Japanese fighters. If you dont have a shot, or the start a hard turn, extended away. Slow gentle turns are the way to go with the 39, as it bleeds speed quickly in a hard turn.

The Japanese planes climb better, turn rings around you, and have much better HP to weight, so their accelleration is much better. The Ki-43 has an EIGHT second turn advantage over the 400/39 and the A6M has a six second advantage. DONT turn fight with them!

ETO/MTO:
North Africa in 1942 is not a friendly environment for the 400/39D1. The 109F2 and F4 are clearly superior across the board. The 109s have better turn, climb, speed, and equal dive handling. In short, your operating at a disadvantage. The 109F2 can have a bit of a problem shooting the 39 down, as the 15mm lacks the punch of a 20mm, but it WILL damage your engine with solid hits to the A/C body.

P-39D2
The P-39D2 is the export version of the 39 but with the more powerful Allison engine and the 37mm restored (you have to select it in the arming screen though). The D2 is a MUCH better bird than the P-400/P-39D1.

Pacific- The P-39D2 is substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, with an average of 100+kph over the Zero and 110+kph against the Oscar. While the turn performance is signifigantly better, its still not competative against the Japanese fighters, so stick to B&Z.

Stay high, stay fast and DONT TURN against the Japanese fighters. If you dont have a shot, or the start a hard turn, extended away. Slow gentle turns are the way to go with the 39, as it bleeds speed quickly in a hard turn.

The Japanese planes still climb better, although the D2 is somewhat better due to the bigger engine. The Oscar still has better HP to weight, so it still accellerates better. However, the D2 has better acceleration than the Zero.

The 37mm is a death ray vs the lightly built Japanese planes. If it hits, it will almost always result in spectacular airframe failures.

Stick with B&Z, and if you dont have a good solution, extend away. The Japanes planes cannot catch you in level flight, and even when diving, you can extend away with a shallow dive that they are incapable of following.

ETO/MTO:
North Africa gets a lot more interesting with the D2. The 109F2 and F4 are no longer clearly superior. The 109s have better climb, and equal dive handling, but the D2 is faster down low and turns slightly better. Speed up high is marginally in the 109s favor, but only by 11kph, and only at high altitudes. In the average desert engagement, its a dead heat. Down low, the D2 has a 20kph advantage over the 109. The D2 also has better accelleration that the 109, which may come as a shock to the 109 drivers that want to dogfight.

The 37mm is deadly against the 109. A solid 37mm hit on the 109 is generally fatal, and the huge mg ammo load and range advantage means that the D2 can stay in a fight for much longer than the 109.

In short, the D2 and the 109 are very well matched. Dont be afraid to dogfight in the D2, your better than the 109F and the D2 is still a good B&Z fighter.

P-39N
The big change for the N model is a return of the weaker 1200hp engine, but improved climb performance. Turn performance is almost identical, but speed suffers, with a drop of 20kph from the D2. One interesting load out option is the ability to take extra ammunition, which means the staying power of the N model is even better, but the D2 is certainly the better performer.

Pacific- The N is still substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, and its faster than the Ki-61 as well. The N still isnt a turn fighter compared to the Japanese, but it can turn in against the Ki-61 and hold its own for short periods of time. Emphasize SHORT periods of time, the 61 has better HP to weight, so dont stick with him in a turn fight or your going to come up short on E.

Just like before, stick to B&Z. When in doubt, extend away. The Japanese planes cannot catch you in level flight, and even when diving, you can extend away with a shallow dive that they are incapable of following. The one exception is the Tony. It can dive faster than the Oscar or the Zero, so be careful when extending away from the Tony in a dive. The Ki-61 picks up speed quickly in a shallow dive, so he may surprise you if your not paying attention.

The Oscar and Zero still climb better, but the N is a better climber than the Ki-61, which can come as a surprise to the Japanese pilots.

The 37mm is now standard, and the extra ammo option means that the N model can loiter around a fight for quite a while agains the Japanese planes. The 37mm still has very few rounds though, so be sparing with them.

The N is still superior to the Zero and Oscar, but the Ki-61 is a comparable fighter, so be careful.

ETO/MTO:
North Africa flips again with the arrival of the 109G2 and the 190A4, and this time the N model is holding the short end of the stick. The 109's are better across the board, except in the turn, and the 190s are noticably faster than the 39. The N climbs much better than the 190, so if you can an altitude advantage over him, you can generally catch the 190 and stick with him as long as you manage your E. The G2 is only marginally faster at low level, but otherwise is much better than the N.

The 37mm is still deadly against the 109, and is just as leathal against the 190. The extra ammo option gives great staying power, but the N has a much harder time agains the newer German birds.

The N is still a better turner, but the speed difference means that your going to wind up flying B&Z most of the time, unless you can suck the Luftwaffe flyers into a turn fight.

P-39Q1/Q10
The Q series sees the P-39 regain some speed, and agains the 109G6, it regains its speed advantage over the 109, as well as increasing its turn advantage. The Q10 in particular becomes a much more formidable plane as its climb rate is actually BETTER than the 109G6 and its speed at altitude is actually equal. The Q10 achieves this but dumping the .30 cal wing guns, so there is a big reduction in staying power. The 190 is only marginally faster on the deck, an the Q10 climbs better, but the 190's are generally going to be B&Z from up high.

B&Z is best against the 190's, and both turnfights or B&Z work against the 109's. The P-39Q vs 109 is a much more matched fight, 190s are going to be hard to engage with out bouncing them from up high.

Pacific:
The Q series saw very little action against Japan, and you dont tend to see the Q matched up against Japanese aircraft. When they are matched up, the Q series is clearly superior in eveyting but turning, and against the Ki-61, its better across the board, even in turn performance.

P-63
The P63 is completely underrated. While it was supposed to be used by the Russians against the Japanese exclusivly, the Russians equipped several P-39 squadrons with P-63's in Europe.

The 63 is a top notch fighter. It is signifigantly faster than all the 109G and K series at low altitude to medium altitudes, and turns substational tighter. More importantly, the P-63 climbs better than any of the 109, which comes as quite a shock to a lot of 109 pilots!

The P-63 also completely outclasses the 190A series. Its faster, climbs better, turns tighter and has better accelleration and excellent dive performance.

The 190D's regain a speed advantage over the P-63, but the 63 still turns better and outclimbs the Dora.

In short, in the ETO, the P-63 is a pretty formidable aircraft, with only the Dora really being able to keep up.

In the Pacific, the P-63 totally outclasses almost all of the late war Japanese fighters, with only the Ki-84 being comparable. The P-63 is actually a better turner than all the Japanese aircraft, with the exception of the Ki-84 and the late model Zero which are equal.

Unlike most US planes, the P-39 is fast and makes a capable dogfighter in the MTO/ETO. Flown as a B&Z plane, its also an excellent fighter in the PTO.

Its final evolution, the P-63 is a top notch fighter and on of the most underappreciated fighters of WW2.

Ernst_Rohr
04-04-2007, 10:09 AM
The P-39 is one of the most underrated fighters in the game, particularly in the Pacific. Flown right, the P-39 is more than competative, and its models and revisions are availible throughout the war, and stay stong performers.

Early war, the P-40 seems to be the preferred ride, but that is a disservice to the P-39. Mid war versions are also overshadowed by more famous aircraft, and once again, its a disservice to a fine fighter.

P-39 Strenghts-

Visibility:
Forward, vertical, rearward, and downward visibility in the 39 is excellent, particularly when compared to many of its contempararies. Lateral visibility is hindered by the top of the door frame.

Speed:
From sea level to 7000ft, the 39 is one of the fastest fighters in the game early war. The D2 variant in particular has unmatched speed at low levels. Lack of a superchager means that speed and performance drop off as the altitude exceeds 10,000ft, but it is still a respectable performer until the 15,000ft level, where it starts to suffer noticably.

Engine Management:
The P-400/P-39D1/D2 all lack boost, but the upside is that the planes can be run maxed out at 100% almost indefinately if you pay attention to the prop pitch of the aircraft and moderate attention to the radiators.

Firepower:
The firepower of the 39's ranges from good to superb. The weakest of the series are the P-400/P-39D1 with only a 20mm cannon in the nose. All later variants mount the 37mm cannon, which is absolutely devastating against aircraft. Using the 37mm takes practice, as it has a very marked ballistic trajectory. If used properly, its a one shot weapon. VERY few aircraft in the game can take a hit from the 37mm and continue flying.

Landing:
The 39 series is one of the easiest to land aircraft in the game. The combination of good visibility plus the tricycle landing gear configuration means that the plane is very easy to land.

Weaknesses;
Stall Characteristics;
One thing the 39 series is infamous for is its leather stall characteristics. Due to its midbody engine, the centero gravity is right in the center of the plane. This means that in many cases the plane will stall and start to rotate around the center of gravity, resulting in an unrecoverable flat spin.

Flat Spins:
Your in BIG trouble if you put one of these birds into a flat spin. If you dont have a signifigant amount of altitude (which you wont most of the time) your better off bailing out immediately. Otherwise, you only have a short period of time to get the nose down and attempt to recover. Trimming full nose down, full stick forward and full rudder are really the only responses to this. Some pilots will also apply full flaps and drop the landing gear in and attempt to dirty up the airflow enough to force the nose down. DONT count on this working! If you dont have altitude, BAIL OUT.

Damage;
A particular weakness of the midengine design is that its remarkably easy to get hit in the engine on the 39 series. Due to the location of the engine, and the proximity to the fuel tanks, fires are not an uncommon result of signifigant engine damage. Once a fire starts, it can be difficult to put out(diving is the only option), and as the engine heats back up after extingishing it, its quite common for the fire to reignite.

So what does all this mean?

P-400/P-39D1
These planes are actually the exact same aircraft. The P-39D1 was the export version of the P-39D in army service, but the cannon was down rated to a 20mm. The USAAF adopted some of these planes as the P-400.

Pacific- The 400/39D1 is substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, with an average of 50+kph over the Zero and 70+kph against the Oscar. Against the Japanese fighters, its stictly a B&Z bird. The smaller 20mm cannon works quite well against all Japanese aircraft, although the Betty/Sally can take several hits from it and keep flying.

Stay high, stay fast and DONT TURN against the Japanese fighters. If you dont have a shot, or the start a hard turn, extended away. Slow gentle turns are the way to go with the 39, as it bleeds speed quickly in a hard turn.

The Japanese planes climb better, turn rings around you, and have much better HP to weight, so their accelleration is much better. The Ki-43 has an EIGHT second turn advantage over the 400/39 and the A6M has a six second advantage. DONT turn fight with them!

ETO/MTO:
North Africa in 1942 is not a friendly environment for the 400/39D1. The 109F2 and F4 are clearly superior across the board. The 109s have better turn, climb, speed, and equal dive handling. In short, your operating at a disadvantage. The 109F2 can have a bit of a problem shooting the 39 down, as the 15mm lacks the punch of a 20mm, but it WILL damage your engine with solid hits to the A/C body.

P-39D2
The P-39D2 is the export version of the 39 but with the more powerful Allison engine and the 37mm restored (you have to select it in the arming screen though). The D2 is a MUCH better bird than the P-400/P-39D1.

Pacific- The P-39D2 is substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, with an average of 100+kph over the Zero and 110+kph against the Oscar. While the turn performance is signifigantly better, its still not competative against the Japanese fighters, so stick to B&Z.

Stay high, stay fast and DONT TURN against the Japanese fighters. If you dont have a shot, or the start a hard turn, extended away. Slow gentle turns are the way to go with the 39, as it bleeds speed quickly in a hard turn.

The Japanese planes still climb better, although the D2 is somewhat better due to the bigger engine. The Oscar still has better HP to weight, so it still accellerates better. However, the D2 has better acceleration than the Zero.

The 37mm is a death ray vs the lightly built Japanese planes. If it hits, it will almost always result in spectacular airframe failures.

Stick with B&Z, and if you dont have a good solution, extend away. The Japanes planes cannot catch you in level flight, and even when diving, you can extend away with a shallow dive that they are incapable of following.

ETO/MTO:
North Africa gets a lot more interesting with the D2. The 109F2 and F4 are no longer clearly superior. The 109s have better climb, and equal dive handling, but the D2 is faster down low and turns slightly better. Speed up high is marginally in the 109s favor, but only by 11kph, and only at high altitudes. In the average desert engagement, its a dead heat. Down low, the D2 has a 20kph advantage over the 109. The D2 also has better accelleration that the 109, which may come as a shock to the 109 drivers that want to dogfight.

The 37mm is deadly against the 109. A solid 37mm hit on the 109 is generally fatal, and the huge mg ammo load and range advantage means that the D2 can stay in a fight for much longer than the 109.

In short, the D2 and the 109 are very well matched. Dont be afraid to dogfight in the D2, your better than the 109F and the D2 is still a good B&Z fighter.

P-39N
The big change for the N model is a return of the weaker 1200hp engine, but improved climb performance. Turn performance is almost identical, but speed suffers, with a drop of 20kph from the D2. One interesting load out option is the ability to take extra ammunition, which means the staying power of the N model is even better, but the D2 is certainly the better performer.

Pacific- The N is still substantially faster than the Ki-43/A6M at all altitudes, and its faster than the Ki-61 as well. The N still isnt a turn fighter compared to the Japanese, but it can turn in against the Ki-61 and hold its own for short periods of time. Emphasize SHORT periods of time, the 61 has better HP to weight, so dont stick with him in a turn fight or your going to come up short on E.

Just like before, stick to B&Z. When in doubt, extend away. The Japanese planes cannot catch you in level flight, and even when diving, you can extend away with a shallow dive that they are incapable of following. The one exception is the Tony. It can dive faster than the Oscar or the Zero, so be careful when extending away from the Tony in a dive. The Ki-61 picks up speed quickly in a shallow dive, so he may surprise you if your not paying attention.

The Oscar and Zero still climb better, but the N is a better climber than the Ki-61, which can come as a surprise to the Japanese pilots.

The 37mm is now standard, and the extra ammo option means that the N model can loiter around a fight for quite a while agains the Japanese planes. The 37mm still has very few rounds though, so be sparing with them.

The N is still superior to the Zero and Oscar, but the Ki-61 is a comparable fighter, so be careful.

ETO/MTO:
North Africa flips again with the arrival of the 109G2 and the 190A4, and this time the N model is holding the short end of the stick. The 109's are better across the board, except in the turn, and the 190s are noticably faster than the 39. The N climbs much better than the 190, so if you can an altitude advantage over him, you can generally catch the 190 and stick with him as long as you manage your E. The G2 is only marginally faster at low level, but otherwise is much better than the N.

The 37mm is still deadly against the 109, and is just as leathal against the 190. The extra ammo option gives great staying power, but the N has a much harder time agains the newer German birds.

The N is still a better turner, but the speed difference means that your going to wind up flying B&Z most of the time, unless you can suck the Luftwaffe flyers into a turn fight.

P-39Q1/Q10
The Q series sees the P-39 regain some speed, and agains the 109G6, it regains its speed advantage over the 109, as well as increasing its turn advantage. The Q10 in particular becomes a much more formidable plane as its climb rate is actually BETTER than the 109G6 and its speed at altitude is actually equal. The Q10 achieves this but dumping the .30 cal wing guns, so there is a big reduction in staying power. The 190 is only marginally faster on the deck, an the Q10 climbs better, but the 190's are generally going to be B&Z from up high.

B&Z is best against the 190's, and both turnfights or B&Z work against the 109's. The P-39Q vs 109 is a much more matched fight, 190s are going to be hard to engage with out bouncing them from up high.

Pacific:
The Q series saw very little action against Japan, and you dont tend to see the Q matched up against Japanese aircraft. When they are matched up, the Q series is clearly superior in eveyting but turning, and against the Ki-61, its better across the board, even in turn performance.

P-63
The P63 is completely underrated. While it was supposed to be used by the Russians against the Japanese exclusivly, the Russians equipped several P-39 squadrons with P-63's in Europe.

The 63 is a top notch fighter. It is signifigantly faster than all the 109G and K series at low altitude to medium altitudes, and turns substational tighter. More importantly, the P-63 climbs better than any of the 109, which comes as quite a shock to a lot of 109 pilots!

The P-63 also completely outclasses the 190A series. Its faster, climbs better, turns tighter and has better accelleration and excellent dive performance.

The 190D's regain a speed advantage over the P-63, but the 63 still turns better and outclimbs the Dora.

In short, in the ETO, the P-63 is a pretty formidable aircraft, with only the Dora really being able to keep up.

In the Pacific, the P-63 totally outclasses almost all of the late war Japanese fighters, with only the Ki-84 being comparable. The P-63 is actually a better turner than all the Japanese aircraft, with the exception of the Ki-84 and the late model Zero which are equal.

Unlike most US planes, the P-39 is fast and makes a capable dogfighter in the MTO/ETO. Flown as a B&Z plane, its also an excellent fighter in the PTO.

Its final evolution, the P-63 is a top notch fighter and on of the most underappreciated fighters of WW2.

drose01
04-04-2007, 12:13 PM
First of all, excellent summary.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Its final evolution, the P-63 is a top notch fighter and on of the most underappreciated fighters of WW2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your final comment brings up a question that I have been thinking about for a long time: was the P63 that we have in Il2 anything like the real thing?

And if so, why was it never flown in combat by US forces? American flyers only used it as a target dummy!

I have been thinking of making a post comparing the in-game P63 to the P51. The P63 outturns, outaccelerates, outclimbs, outguns, pretty much outeverythings the P51. Peak speeds are similar, but the P63 hits those speeds much much sooner.

High altitude performance goes to the P51, but the P63 doesnt do badly up there either. P51 also has better high speed control authority- the P63 gets pretty mushy in a high speed dive.

The P63's 37 mm cannon is a huge advantage over the 50 cal only loadout on the P51, although it takes practice to use it effectively. Hard to hit, but one hit will usually destroy the enemy (2 or 3 hits for bombers). But relatively speaking, this weapon is not nearly as useful as the typical 20 and 30 mm cannon loadout on its rivals. And this is why the P63, despite performance advantages, IMO is harder to win in than most other non US late war fighters- relative ineffectiveness of weapons. Otherwise, you might see more P63s among the La7s, Spit25lbs, Ki84Cs and 190D9s in servers where users can choose any plane they want to.

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2007, 12:28 PM
have an eye on the speed in a powerdive.
the Airacobra max is ~750km/h IAS , the Qs can go a little bit faster, but still well below 800.

as a sidenote, the Allison engine of the Airacobra had actually a supercharger. But it was a single stage, single speed one and not rated for high altitudes.

Daiichidoku
04-04-2007, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
have an eye on the speed in a powerdive.
the Airacobra max is ~750km/h IAS , the Qs can go a little bit faster, but still well below 800.

as a sidenote, the Allison engine of the Airacobra had actually a supercharger. But it was a single stage, single speed one and not rated for high altitudes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


odd...ive had the 63 up to about 940 kph before anythign bad happens


also, the thread authors comment that the 63 will outturn all japanese types except the ki84 and late zeros must be a mistake...the 63 will BE OUTTURNED by all japanese types, excepting perhaps the ki84, and the J2M series...i think even late zeros can still outturn the 63

it should be said though, that at high speeds, the 63 has few equals in the turn

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2007, 01:31 PM
P-63's can outturn Rufe's, Ki-61's, Ki-100's and N1K2 too.

Ki-84's, late Zeros will outturn the P-63.

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2007, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
have an eye on the speed in a powerdive.
the Airacobra max is ~750km/h IAS , the Qs can go a little bit faster, but still well below 800.

as a sidenote, the Allison engine of the Airacobra had actually a supercharger. But it was a single stage, single speed one and not rated for high altitudes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


odd...ive had the 63 up to about 940 kph before anythign bad happens


.................... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, the Kingcobra can dive faster http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horseback
04-04-2007, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
First of all, excellent summary.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Its final evolution, the P-63 is a top notch fighter and on of the most underappreciated fighters of WW2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your final comment brings up a question that I have been thinking about for a long time: was the P63 that we have in Il2 anything like the real thing?

And if so, why was it never flown in combat by US forces? American flyers only used it as a target dummy!

I have been thinking of making a post comparing the in-game P63 to the P51. The P63 outturns, outaccelerates, outclimbs, outguns, pretty much outeverythings the P51. Peak speeds are similar, but the P63 hits those speeds much much sooner.

High altitude performance goes to the P51, but the P63 doesnt do badly up there either. P51 also has better high speed control authority- the P63 gets pretty mushy in a high speed dive.

The P63's 37 mm cannon is a huge advantage over the 50 cal only loadout on the P51, although it takes practice to use it effectively. Hard to hit, but one hit will usually destroy the enemy (2 or 3 hits for bombers). But relatively speaking, this weapon is not nearly as useful as the typical 20 and 30 mm cannon loadout on its rivals. And this is why the P63, despite performance advantages, IMO is harder to win in than most other non US late war fighters- relative ineffectiveness of weapons. Otherwise, you might see more P63s among the La7s, Spit25lbs, Ki84Cs and 190D9s in servers where users can choose any plane they want to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The P-51 had two great advantages over the P-63: range and the fact that it was already in full production when the P-63 was first introduced.

Since the P-63 didn't do anything spectacularly better than the Mustang (and please don't confuse Oleg's interpretations of the two fighters with the real things), there was no reason to divert the resources to the Bell fighter, which would have required a tremendous upgrade to Bell's production facilities.

cheers

horseback

Ed6269
04-04-2007, 03:27 PM
Do you all think that the p39 has been overlooked due to the fact that The Eastern Front was mainly about combat at low altitudes? Tank busting, CAS, fast and low interdiction, and countering those was where the action was. Vs. the Pacific theater where it was all about distance and the swoop down from on high. Plus the bomber stream over Germany was a high altitude affair.
When you read Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" The USA hardly appears until page 1,200 of a 1,400 page book. (Or so.) The Russians speak of the war very differently, but we Yanks make the movies, so the Eastern Front is a giant question mark, hardly on the radar.(save Sgt. Shultz' fear on "Hogan's Heroes.") I mean, it's Normandy, The Bulge, and that's about it. (Yes, yes, I know Hurtgen forest, but how many know about that one.) The Soviets had over a Million men on line for the Gotterdammerung that was Berlin. Perceptions of wars are the products of their culture.

VW-IceFire
04-04-2007, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
First of all, excellent summary.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Its final evolution, the P-63 is a top notch fighter and on of the most underappreciated fighters of WW2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your final comment brings up a question that I have been thinking about for a long time: was the P63 that we have in Il2 anything like the real thing?

And if so, why was it never flown in combat by US forces? American flyers only used it as a target dummy!

I have been thinking of making a post comparing the in-game P63 to the P51. The P63 outturns, outaccelerates, outclimbs, outguns, pretty much outeverythings the P51. Peak speeds are similar, but the P63 hits those speeds much much sooner.

High altitude performance goes to the P51, but the P63 doesnt do badly up there either. P51 also has better high speed control authority- the P63 gets pretty mushy in a high speed dive.

The P63's 37 mm cannon is a huge advantage over the 50 cal only loadout on the P51, although it takes practice to use it effectively. Hard to hit, but one hit will usually destroy the enemy (2 or 3 hits for bombers). But relatively speaking, this weapon is not nearly as useful as the typical 20 and 30 mm cannon loadout on its rivals. And this is why the P63, despite performance advantages, IMO is harder to win in than most other non US late war fighters- relative ineffectiveness of weapons. Otherwise, you might see more P63s among the La7s, Spit25lbs, Ki84Cs and 190D9s in servers where users can choose any plane they want to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think the key reasons were high altitude performance, range, and cost. The huge advantage of the Mustang was that it was both a very good performer and it was very cheap. Much cheaper than the P-38 or the P-47. The P-63 is ok at higher altitudes but I'd encourage you to try both types and see which one seems better up there. The P-63 seems like its lost its breath up at 7000m while the Mustang keeps cruising along just fine. Not sure if its acceleration or just aerodynamics but the Mustang feels great at high altitude.

If the P-63 was two years sooner and the USAAF was looking for a dedicated tactical fighter then I think they would have found the P-63 very useful indeed. Instead only a very small number were struck on the USAAF registry and the rest were sent to the Soviets. The use of the P-63 was kept secret oddly enough...they were meant for use against the Japanese but ended up being used alongside P-39 squadrons...often with the log books saying P-39 when the P-63 was being used.

As for turn...the P-63 is a bit like the Tempest...it turns well but the laminar flow ultimately means that a prolonged turn is going to be a bad thing. Still...the wings are very big so there is more to hold on to. Trimming the rudder is a constant chore in the P-63 I also find.

Ernst_Rohr
04-04-2007, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
have an eye on the speed in a powerdive.
the Airacobra max is ~750km/h IAS , the Qs can go a little bit faster, but still well below 800.

as a sidenote, the Allison engine of the Airacobra had actually a supercharger. But it was a single stage, single speed one and not rated for high altitudes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



odd...ive had the 63 up to about 940 kph before anythign bad happens


also, the thread authors comment that the 63 will outturn all japanese types except the ki84 and late zeros must be a mistake...the 63 will BE OUTTURNED by all japanese types, excepting perhaps the ki84, and the J2M series...i think even late zeros can still outturn the 63

it should be said though, that at high speeds, the 63 has few equals in the turn </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, not a mistake on the turns.

P-63 turn time (best) 19.4 seconds
K-84 turn time (best) 19.18 seconds
A6M5c turn time (best) 19.3 seconds
A6M7(62) turn time (best) 19.2 seconds
A6M7(63) turn time (best) 18.6 seconds
J2M3 turn time (best) 19.8 seconds
N1K2-Ja turn time (best) 19.55 seconds.

Note thats BEST turn times. At high speed, the only equivelent turn performance comes from the Hayate. The Zero isnt doing so hot at high speed due to stiffening of the control surfaces. The J2M3 is a hot diver, but not that hot at turning at high speeds. Still a very good plane, but its slightly inferior. The J2M5 is completely outclassed by the P-63.

The Hayate can turn and run with the P-63, the J2M3 can outclimb the P-63. But thats about it. The Shinden Kai has consistant turning across its speed range courtesy of the automatic flaps, but it bleeds speed pretty quickly, and its marginally slower in the turn, as well as being much slower speed wise.

As far as why the P-63 did not get used by the USAAF;

1) High altitude performace of the Mustang was better. That was deemed more important in the ETO.
2) Mustang was already in service and wouldnt require crews to be retrained. (Thats a pretty strong arguement btw)
3) North American was already tooled up and producing more Mustangs in a week than Bell could hope to match. So NA could supply large numbers than Bell
4) Politics: The design of the P-63 was heavily influenced by the Russians and that didnt sit too well with several folks in the Pentagon and Washington.
5) Real life testing (not game) gave the P-63 the nod as an excellent fighter and said it was just as a good a plane as the Mustang, with the P-63 being better in the turn and climb than the Stang, but the Mustang was faster and had a better high alt performance. So there wasnt enought of a performance edge to push them to change to the 63.

woofiedog
04-05-2007, 03:37 AM
Ernst_Rohr... Interest reading.

Thank's for the information.

KrasniyYastreb
04-05-2007, 05:07 AM
Thank you for your post. Yuu could not have timed it better. I had just decided to switch to the P-39, and the information is very useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tigertalon
04-05-2007, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
The J2M5 is completely outclassed by the P-63. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Err... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2007, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
The J2M5 is completely outclassed by the P-63. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Err... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Tis true mate...

Ernst_Rohr
04-05-2007, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
The J2M5 is completely outclassed by the P-63. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Err... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, not a mistake. The J2M3 version of the Raiden is a much better performer than the J2M5 for some bizzare reason.

Ernst_Rohr
04-05-2007, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrasniyYastreb:
Thank you for your post. Yuu could not have timed it better. I had just decided to switch to the P-39, and the information is very useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you found it helpful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daiichidoku
04-05-2007, 07:45 AM
63s beat the livin snot out of 84s over 5,000m

JG53Frankyboy
04-05-2007, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
The J2M5 is completely outclassed by the P-63. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Err... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, not a mistake. The J2M3 version of the Raiden is a much better performer than the J2M5 for some bizzare reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if we trust the il2compare, the both Raidens have till 5000m almost the same speed - above that alt the J2M5 races, reaching almost 700km/h at 6500m, away from the J2M3........
sure, i did not have checked that for myself in game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BillyTheKid_22
04-05-2007, 01:18 PM
http://www.westhoustonsqdn.org/images/p63/p63-hangar.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

msalama
04-05-2007, 01:56 PM
Yep Billy. Heck, screw the technical armchair-experten mumbo-jumbo for a while and enter the aesthetics! This bird is soooo cool looking... I mean, can you say "futuristic" and "sleek"??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

And not a bad fighter either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ernst_Rohr
04-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Nice pic Billy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
04-05-2007, 04:00 PM
The P-39's spin characteristics have long been a subject of debate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The spin characteristics of the P-39 were confusing for unobservant pilots. The conventional spin is oscillatory, meaning the nose of the airplane passes through the horizon two times per 360-degree rotation. Conventional spin entry is accomplished at stall speed with full back stick (up elevator) and full rudder in the direction of spin rotation desired. Recovery is achieved by application of full opposite rudder followed by full forward stick. The inverted spin requires full forward stick for spin entry and back stick for recovery. The inverted spin is also oscillatory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bell service representatives at the squadrons continually reported that squadron maintenance failed to ballast operational P-39's adequately when flown without ammunition load. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taken from the late Tex Johnston's excellent autobiography, "TEX JOHNSTON JET-AGE TEST PILOT".

Ernst_Rohr
04-06-2007, 09:51 AM
Interesting, what did they claim where the primary characteristics of the P-39's spin and handling?

F19_Ob
04-07-2007, 05:09 AM
Many consider the big cannon to be the all best, but personally I think it's only so when shooting at bombers.When engaging fighters like the ki-43 and zero the 20mm cannon is much easier to hit with , and often 1 or a couple of hits is enough to take them out of action.

The d2 variant is the fastest of the early p39's at sea level. About 50 kph faster than p400, and more than 100kph faster than A6M2b Zero Model 21,
and about 60 kph faster than the ki-61 Ko.
No one should be able to catch U early to mid war in the paciffic in this thing. Total freedom.

It's possible to even chase down running 109 F4's, and even dogfight fairly well with them and stay within safe stall limits.
The 109 G2 is as fast but much more difficult because now u simply can't outrun it and the 109 has better stall behavior and therefore may recover from a mistake faster.

Note that the russians put led-weights in the front to change the center of gravity and make it less spin prone. The removal of the wing guns surely helped too (as on the p-40).

Although the germans did not turnfight as a norm many enough did so anyway to leave traces in the litterature.
I've read both german and finnish accounts where they turned their 109's inside the cobras, gaining on them in the circle and shooting them down.
Consider also Marseille's frequent turning inside allied planes in afrika.