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View Full Version : An overlooked detail perhaps?



Choctaw111
04-01-2007, 05:56 PM
I have always wondered why when you fire the BK 3,7 cannon on the Stuka why they don't seem to produce that much damage when you hit the ground or water. I was looking at the Hans Rudel ground attack movie the other day and those guns were sending water geysers several hundred feet in the air! The effects we have in game now are like shooting a 30 caliber round! Can we have this simple fix please to at least replace the visual effect with something more powerful that we already have in game? Here is a link to the Hans Rudel movie of him taking out targets with his BK 3,7 cannon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=
And here are some screenshots in game of the same cannon and the effects they have. Clearly there is a huge difference here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-42-47-75.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-23-54.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccou...0-41-23-54.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-23-54.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-11-31.jpg
I know that there are many bigger fish to fry but this would not take long to fix would it? To make adjustments to all the Bk 3,7 guns and make sure that they all look like they have that hard hitting power. The one on the Bf110 has rounds that seem to make a big hit and others that do not. It does not matter if it is AP or HE, that is a big round hitting the water, or the ground, and will have a huge impact. I just had to get this off my chest. Not that this will make any difference, but now I feel better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Choctaw111
04-01-2007, 05:56 PM
I have always wondered why when you fire the BK 3,7 cannon on the Stuka why they don't seem to produce that much damage when you hit the ground or water. I was looking at the Hans Rudel ground attack movie the other day and those guns were sending water geysers several hundred feet in the air! The effects we have in game now are like shooting a 30 caliber round! Can we have this simple fix please to at least replace the visual effect with something more powerful that we already have in game? Here is a link to the Hans Rudel movie of him taking out targets with his BK 3,7 cannon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=
And here are some screenshots in game of the same cannon and the effects they have. Clearly there is a huge difference here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-42-47-75.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-23-54.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccou...0-41-23-54.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-23-54.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0120-41-11-31.jpg
I know that there are many bigger fish to fry but this would not take long to fix would it? To make adjustments to all the Bk 3,7 guns and make sure that they all look like they have that hard hitting power. The one on the Bf110 has rounds that seem to make a big hit and others that do not. It does not matter if it is AP or HE, that is a big round hitting the water, or the ground, and will have a huge impact. I just had to get this off my chest. Not that this will make any difference, but now I feel better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-01-2007, 06:34 PM
Interesting video Choc, thanks.

If that's what they looked like, this is a perfect example of the need to open the future sim to 3rd Party modding for grafix effects to allow better simulation of the visual aspects of air warfare.

AKA_TAGERT
04-01-2007, 06:37 PM
So that is where the Mk108s went!

Now all Oleg needs to do is swap out the BK 3,7 on all other Lw with these Mk108s and replace the current Mk108s on the stuka with the actul BK 3,7 and we be good! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fuzzychickens
04-01-2007, 07:25 PM
Wow, clearly after seeing that video, the game version is way WAY WAY off.

Choctaw111
04-01-2007, 07:25 PM
Here is another screenshot of the Bf110 and its Bk 3,7.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0121-56-18-14.jpg
Notice how 2 rounds produce a large impact and 1 does not. I imagine the ammo loadout is 2 HE and 1 AP, the AP being the one that makes the little impact. AP should not make such a tiny impact on the ground, or in this case, the water. The video I gave the link to shows this. Please substitute the large impacts, at least the impacts in the water, for all types of BK 3,7 rounds, and all other "big" rounds that apply. They look much better and they are ALL very hard hitting. And while we are on the subject, do the Mk108 and BK 3,7 HE rounds (and others) really make a shockwave when they hit the ground as shown here? (MK108 shown)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/il2fb2007-04-0121-19-09-54.jpg
I have never seen it for real of coarse or in any film but it just seems unrealistic to me. Just a simple little explosion like we had a few versions before seemed just fine. On an end note (at least for now) I challenge anyone to fire a 37mm high velocity AP round into the water or ground and make such a tiny little impact like we have in game now.

Choctaw111
04-01-2007, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fuzzychickens:
Wow, clearly after seeing that video, the game version is way WAY WAY off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sim is about historical accuracy. I hope we can get at least this part sorted out. You see, I am a munitions guy, more specifically, a guns guy. Others can help to get the flight models and other things made right, but THIS is my thing. Whenever we get a new patch or whenever I test a new sim, this is the first thing I check, to see how well modeled the guns and their effects are. I am just now getting around to posting this. Sorry if I am too late to have made any difference for this. There are other aspects of the guns and related things that Oleg has done very well.

VW-IceFire
04-01-2007, 08:28 PM
Choctaw...one interesting point...when I saw that video I nearly made the very same post here but what stopped me is someone mentioning the use of HE rounds instead of the AP. So they should explode if they were HE and be pretty spectacular...but if its all anti tank AP rounds shouldn't their impact be relatively slight regardless?

AVG_WarHawk
04-01-2007, 08:35 PM
I recall when the Ju-87G-1 was first introduced to IL-2 it had a much greater visual impact effect(though nothing like the video). After many complaints about its inability to destroy any but the thinner skinned tanks, the next patch had the load-out with the minimal visual impact.

The BK 3,7 cannon still seems rather ineffective against most tanks and the firing rate is about half what it should be.

Griff0
04-01-2007, 10:13 PM
Explosive shell or not the splash from the stuka's big guns is to small. Lets hope the impact ploom is increased so my misses are more obvious.

BBB_Hyperion
04-02-2007, 04:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVG_WarHawk:
I recall when the Ju-87G-1 was first introduced to IL-2 it had a much greater visual impact effect(though nothing like the video). After many complaints about its inability to destroy any but the thinner skinned tanks, the next patch had the load-out with the minimal visual impact.

The BK 3,7 cannon still seems rather ineffective against most tanks and the firing rate is about half what it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can destroy any tank in il2 with it (not sure about js3 tho) rounds needs to be from top 35+ degrees on the engine or turret section(except some lucky sideshoots turret) .

What should work but doesn't close range 30 m from the side and seems little unrealistic (maybe as much as getting 30m close to the tank).

ImpStarDuece
04-02-2007, 04:55 AM
What your seeing is the difference between HE loadouts (in the video) and AP load outs (in the game).

While it would be nice to choose which ammunition we get to use (or, even better, belting loadouts) we are stuck with the AP rounds. I think the Hartkernmunition (Allied equavilent is APBC) is modeled, which has a tungsten care and IIRC, no bursing charge.

The BK 3,7 APHE round had a 680g shell and about 120 grams of HE in it, and penetrated about 50mm at 500m. The APBC ammo penetrated about 140 mm at 100m and about 80mm at 500m.

Choctaw111
04-02-2007, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What your seeing is the difference between HE loadouts (in the video) and AP load outs (in the game).

While it would be nice to choose which ammunition we get to use (or, even better, belting loadouts) we are stuck with the AP rounds. I think the Hartkernmunition (Allied equavilent is APBC) is modeled, which has a tungsten care and IIRC, no bursing charge.

The BK 3,7 APHE round had a 680g shell and about 120 grams of HE in it, and penetrated about 50mm at 500m. The APBC ammo penetrated about 140 mm at 100m and about 80mm at 500m. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But still, a more noticeable impact should be seen. Again I would challenge anyone to shoot an 37mm High velocity AP round into the ground or water and produce such a small impact. We are not talking about an olympic diver here trying to make the smallest splash possible. We are talking about a high velocity massive projectile, not a bullet shot from my sons .22 rifle.

Lurch1962
04-02-2007, 04:31 PM
37mm HE or AP... either will make one heck of a splash on impact. Just look at the 20 foot+ geysers plain ol' .50s will throw up next time you watch some RL American gun camera films.

--Lurch--

Jaws2002
04-03-2007, 08:28 AM
In the game the armor piercing shells don't make huge explosions or splashing in the water. Is the same with the Russian big guns.

The BK 3.7 on the stuka has only AP rounds. On that plane the gun is pure antitank gun. In the 110G2 the Gun is loaded with a mix of AP and HE shells.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-03-2007, 01:48 PM
You think AP and HE make the same splash? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Why use AP ammo then, anyway?

Choctaw111
04-03-2007, 03:34 PM
So some people here are saying that the Bk 3,7 or any other large caliber weapon
AP rounds will have the same impact visually of the 30 caliber guns we have in game?

LEXX_Luthor
04-04-2007, 06:53 AM
The best way to fix this is Oleg give back the old Muzzle Flash from before PF releace, then nobody sees any impacts, just the giant flame out front covering everything. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Choctaw111
04-04-2007, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
The best way to fix this is Oleg give back the old Muzzle Flash from before PF releace, then nobody sees any impacts, just the giant flame out front covering everything. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not entirely sure if that is funny or not. I am still trying to decide. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BM357_Sniper
04-05-2007, 04:46 PM
Trying to explain this to people that have zero experience with weapons is like trying to explain flying to them when they've never flown a plane. lol

Ok, sorry. Yes, there will be a difference in the splash between an HE and AP round. However, like Choctaw said earlier, it isn't like an olympic diver trying to make a small splash. Even a .30 cal round will send water up 20 feet or more. Now imagine a huge round like we're talking about. It doesn't have to explode on impact to empty the lake on impact. lol