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actionhank1786
11-15-2004, 03:17 PM
I see dutch marking in game, but what planes did they fly?
I've tried some of the various allied planes (even the buffalo, didnt they fly those?)
But i can't get a "default" skin to show up with the markings.
I tried the P-36 but that one didnt work either, is this a case of waiting for Patch planes?
hmm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'd love to learn more about the Dutch Airforce in WWII and the fight they put up against the japanese forces.

Zyzbot
11-15-2004, 03:42 PM
This link has a list of some:

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/Dutch_OOB.html

AtEaseGentlemen
11-15-2004, 07:13 PM
The Dutch Voicepack in the game at the moment isn't a Dutch Voicepack - does anyone know if this will be included with the Patch ?

Stiglr
11-15-2004, 09:48 PM
A quick look at that roster and you understand how they got swept away so quick. They were truly just outclassed.

About the only fighter worth a **** in the East Indies campaign was the Hurricane... and that ain't saying much.

For bombers, the situation was probably worse. Glenn Martins and Wildebeests?? Gives me shivers just thinking about those poor guys who actually climbed in those crates.

Dimensionaut_
11-16-2004, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AtEaseGentlemen:
The Dutch Voicepack in the game at the moment isn't a Dutch Voicepack - does anyone know if this will be included with the Patch ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the first update. But a few people are working hard on a voicepack.

@ActionHawk:
There are no Dutch default skins in the Game.
Tchaika, my squadmates and I made some Dutch pacific skins. Filter Dutch at il2skins.com
Note the P-40's and B-25's were used when flying from Australia. Before that it was Buffalo's, Hawks that were used indeed.

DIRTY-MAC
11-16-2004, 04:33 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stiglr:
A quick look at that roster and you understand how they got swept away so quick. They were truly just outclassed.

About the only fighter worth a **** in the East Indies campaign was the Hurricane... and that ain't saying much.

I dont agree with that


Here is some info on some figting:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=5491099042

JG53Frankyboy
11-16-2004, 04:43 AM
yes, the Hurricanes used early from the RAF were realy not the best !
they had dustfilters installed ! what gave them a realy bad performance

Ruy Horta
11-16-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
I see dutch marking in game, but what planes did they fly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The dutch flew a multitude of types but the most important during 1941 were:

Dornier Do-24
Consolidated PBY
Martin Mod. 139
Curtiss Hawk 75A
Curtiss Demon C.21
Hurricane Mk II
Brewster Mod. 339

Later they flew

Curtiss P-40
North American B-25

Think they flew Spitfires in the far east as well, but I often mix up post war activities with late war action. They also flew P-51s over Indonesia, but that was post war.

The Dutch markings are only relevant to the 1940-41 period, and during the latter half of the Indonesian campaign they switched to a depiction of the dutch flag (red - white - blue from top to bottom, actually darker than is often depicted because people use the current (IMHO uglier) colors).

If more a/c came available I'd be happy to be involved in helping to create a realistic dutch campaign using various available sources.

The dutch didn't do too badly all things considered.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-16-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:

If more a/c came available I'd be happy to be involved in helping to create a realistic dutch campaign using various available sources.

considered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To do that you'll need an indonesia map. Or atleast a Java map. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ruy Horta
11-16-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
To do that you'll need an indonesia map. Or atleast a Java map. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well at least a good generic "jungle" map.

If push came to shove I'd rather see that than no Java, Malasia or Burma.

Stiglr
11-16-2004, 10:46 AM
I read two volumes of "Bloody Shambles" by Brian Cull et. al., that details the whole early Japanese conquest of the Phillipines and Dutch East Indies.

The Dutch, and the British DID do "that badly". They tried hard, but....

Ruy Horta
11-16-2004, 11:55 AM
I disagree with you based on the same sources and a couple of others, especially the more strategically oriented Empires in the Balance.

Remember that The Netherlands had been occupied by the germans in the spring of 1940 and that the dutch territories were basically cut off from any support in the time between the fall of Holland and the start of hostilities in the east.

Now consider that the Dutch East Indies were the PRIME Japanese target.

The US and British were much better off strategically (lay of the land), in terms of numbers of men and quality and quantity of material.

The main difference being that the British could pull back into India and the Americans could make a stance at Bataan that although outlasting all other resistance had little lasting value, and continue fighting through other means.

I am sorry Stig, but before you start pointing that finger look across the board, especially wrt the parties you are confidently leaving outside your sentence.

Malaya, Singapore and the Philippines are hardly better feats of battle than Java etc.

One of the more aggressive (although futile) allied episodes was the Battle of the Java Sea.

I'll repeat and expand, all things considered the Dutch didn't do too badly.

Although english is not my primary language I do think I understand the meaning of that particular phrase better than you do.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-16-2004, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:Now consider that the Dutch East Indies were the PRIME Japanese target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, the natural resources richness of my country surely attractive for other nations to occupy it for their own purposes and wealth... even until now - although in different ways... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Sorry, just too sentimental about history i guess... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ruy Horta
11-16-2004, 12:20 PM
It didn't help the dutch much that by the time the Japanese invaded Indonesian nationalism was on the rise. Although the native troops were very loyal (during the war and post war, unfortunately we never did repay that loyalty!), the people were ready for independence.

The British had the same problems in Burma where a large part of the population wasn't exactly sad to see the Brits go...

OTOH back to the East Indies its also sad that instead seeing true freedom for all the peoples, it was more a case of Java stepping into the place of the Dutch.

But that might be too political a topic for this forum and a painful discussion for more than one participant.

As for sentimentality, I think you have the right idea...most of "our" history is build on sadness and grief.

Salute!

Aero_Shodanjo
11-16-2004, 01:14 PM
As painful as it was, it's history now. The Dutch gave many positive things too. Max Havelaar - if im not mistaken - wrote a book that changed the East Indies and Dutch government policy and gave the natives the opportunity to study abroad. That was one of the factors that started indonesian independence movement, IMO.

And not to mention also that the Dutch gave us code of law, court system, railroad network etc.

But you're right when you wrote that when the Japan invaded, Indonesian nationalism was on the rise. But then came 3,5 years of another exploitation. You might be surprised that now some of the historians here considered that 3 centuries under Dutch control was still a lot better compared to 3,5 years under Japanese occupation. What happened to the Dutch POWs was more or less the same as what the natives had to endure during those years.

Ok, enough said http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Anyway, being here in this forum has brought me new and - often - surprising facts about Dutch East Indies in WWII. Facts I didnt know such as aerial battles over Java (except one over Surabaya (Soerabaja)) etc. I do aware, however that there were atleast two Indonesians that enlisted in the Dutch Air Force - not as a pilot ofcourse - that were involved in fighting against the Japanese. Btw, there was a story that one of them was in a bomber (American B17?) that fled to Autralia. He was there in that plane not as a crew but to act as a ballast http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I'm glad that I'm here. And I hope that we can share more about our countries' history. And also I'm looking forward to play your campaign too - in both sides of the war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Salute! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GerritJ9
11-17-2004, 02:35 AM
If I'm not mistaken there were some Indonesian officers in the ML-KNIL; one name that springs to mind is Raden Suriardono, who was active in Glenn Martins. I will have to check though since I am at work now and my sources are at home.
And the Indonesian forced labourers (known as romoesja's) were a LOT worse off that the Allied POWs. The POWs at least had some cohesion and a primitive amount of medical care, bad as it was, provided by POW doctors. The forced labourers had nothing of the sort and were treated even more harshly than the POWs were- hard as it is to imagine that. As a result, very few romoesja's survived.

Mozzie_21
11-17-2004, 03:44 AM
I read two volumes of "Bloody Shambles" by Brian Cull et. al., that details the whole early Japanese conquest of the Phillipines and Dutch East Indies.

The Dutch, and the British DID do "that badly". They tried hard, but....

I don't see why people are so opposed to the fact that the allies were no match for the Japanese in the early parts of the war in the Pacific. We could have done better but we were complacent. The Japanese were battle tried and tested. They were simply superior.

Ruy Horta
11-17-2004, 04:51 AM
Again, wrt the Dutch participation I'll challenge anyone to show how they could have done any better under similar circumstances. Even a simple OOB and peek on the map will suffice to show anyone with half a brain that there wasn't a hope in hell that the Dutch could do ANYTHING to stop a Japanese advance through the East Indies.

And the dutch went even so far as dissipating their (air)strength in an effort to help the British defend Singapore when called upon by their allies!

As for the Allies being no match for the Japanese I'd like to point to a few factors.

1. The Japanese held the initiative

2. The Japanese could shift their focal point and aquire numerical superiority if needed

3. Much of the allied strength was dissipated by virtue of geography

4. The British were on a budget, since they were already fighting for half of the world (air, atlantic, north africa, middle east etc).

5. The Japanese had a core of battle hardened men, on land, sea and air (*)

6. The french had been defeated and were practically at the mercy of the Japanese.

7. The dutch had been defeated and were at the mercy of everyone...

8. The Australians and New-Zealanders were banking on Britain to protect them, or at least lead them well.

(* but between the green men there were also battle hardened men on the commonwealth side, and after two years of war one would expect the commonwealth leadership to have learned sufficiently to deal with any new crisis).

The Japanese campaign of the winter and spring of 1941/42 was brilliant, but we should not make the same mistake the Japanese leadership made and believe in their invincibility.

Look at the Battle of Coral Sea for instance where fairly equal units (but with battle hardened Japanese) fight to a draw.

That's early 1942.

Apart from the freak Midway results, all early encounters of equal units lead to fairly even scores. Midway isn't only a freak because of a good ambush (based on excellent intel), but also in part because of luck.

The key to Japanese success is INITIATIVE.

Mozzie_21
11-17-2004, 07:51 AM
The Japanese run through South East Asia to Australia was not strongly contested. The units were completely lacking in combat experience and their equipment was not on par with that of the Japanese. The Australian units that initially opposed them, even in New Guinea, were relatively poor. It was only when they faced the AIF which had come over from north Africa that the Japanese were actually beaten in the Owen Stanleys and at Milne Bay.

The thing is that the Commonwealth, or rather Britain, completely underestimated the Japanese. Sure they could have done better, but with their attitude they were never going to defeat a well motivated, sophisticated, disciplined, modern and battle hardened enemy.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WhiteSnake_76
11-17-2004, 11:10 AM
Heres your Completle list http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
btw those orange triangles were not used in the pacific at all, we used the dutch roundels there

Brewster F2A B-339D, B-439D Buffalo (92 to ML-KNIL)
Curtiss H.75A-7 Hawk (20 to ML-KNIL)
Curtiss P-40 Kittyhawk (120 NEI Squadron, RAAF)
Grumman F4F (FAA)
Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIc (24 ML-KNIL)
North American P-51 Mustang (40)
Supermarine Spitfire (RAF) (100+)
Mk Vb
LF.Mk IXb
Mk XIV

Consolidated B-24 Liberator Mk VI (RAF)
North American B-25 Mitchell (18 and 119 NEI Squadrons, RAAF)
Boeing B-17 (1 ex US escaped from NEI)
Douglas C-47A (7)
Consolidated PBY5 Catalina (36 to MLD-NEI)
PBY3 (?1 ex USN)
PBY5A (17 RAF)

GerritJ9
11-17-2004, 01:30 PM
Correction: the orange triangle WAS used in the early stages of the Pacific conflict. A short history of Netherlands Air Force markings:
During the Great War (when the Netherlands was neutral), the Dutch Air Force used orange circles as national markings. Post-war, a circle divided into three equal segments of red, white and blue with an orange dot in the centre was introduced. This was used until early in the Second World War. During the period of Holland's neutrality, a German aircraft shot down a Dutch aircraft, the German crew having mistaken the Dutch markings for British or French. As a result the orange triangle with a black border was introduced, both in Europe and in the NEI, although the NEI were far removed from the European conflict. Thsi eliminated any possible further confusion between Dutch and Allied markings.
This marking was used in the early stages of the Pacific War, but it was soon realized that here, too, mistaking the Dutch marking for in this case the Japanese hinomaru was possible. As a result, the marking was ordered to be changed to a Dutch flag in February 1942, the change being effective as of March 1st 1942.
The Dutch flag marking (three equal bars of red, white and blue) was, although it contained red, considered sufficiently different to the hinomaru to remain in use until the end of the Pacific War- the only Allied national marking to retain red until the end of the conflict.
Post-war, the pre-war national marking, still in use today, was re-introduced.

GerritJ9
11-17-2004, 03:11 PM
The idea of even trying to defend Java with a mere 20 Hawk 75s, 24 CW21Bs and 72 B339s is ridiculous- Java is, from east to west, some 1,000 km long- that's about 625 miles. From Sabang in Sumatra to Hollandia in Dutch New Guinea is several thousand km- dwarfs the Eastern Front, I think. By the time the assault on Java started those numbers had been reduced by combat and accidents, though to be fair the numbers had been boosted somewhat by USAAC P-40s and RAF Hurricanes. To defend such a vast territory- even only Java- would have required many times the actual number of aircraft available.