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Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 01:32 AM
Ever since all bullets where calculated shooting has become very easy at least compared with the orginal il-2. I have post about this before and when things get more easy people don't complain fast.

http://www.mkbgroep.nl/track/easy2.jpg

If .50 do more damage you won't hear much people complain about it right?

I just find it strange that ever since all bullets where calculated shooting has become much easier. Maybe this is realistic but I don't believe that.

Maybe ever since all bullets where calculated an error has been made? Shooting was 1 of the hardest things as it should be.

Shooting with a yak9T or p39 cannon should be really really hard but it isn't.

Example: compare old original il-2 p39 cannon with the one we got today. Back then a hit with the cannon from the p39 was really realy hard. Now very easy.

How can there be so much difference between then and now?
Deflection shooting was really hard aswell as it should be!

Anyone agrees? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif again people don't complain fast when things get more easy.

[This message was edited by Slechtvalk on Sat May 22 2004 at 01:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by Slechtvalk on Sat May 22 2004 at 09:20 AM.]

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 01:32 AM
Ever since all bullets where calculated shooting has become very easy at least compared with the orginal il-2. I have post about this before and when things get more easy people don't complain fast.

http://www.mkbgroep.nl/track/easy2.jpg

If .50 do more damage you won't hear much people complain about it right?

I just find it strange that ever since all bullets where calculated shooting has become much easier. Maybe this is realistic but I don't believe that.

Maybe ever since all bullets where calculated an error has been made? Shooting was 1 of the hardest things as it should be.

Shooting with a yak9T or p39 cannon should be really really hard but it isn't.

Example: compare old original il-2 p39 cannon with the one we got today. Back then a hit with the cannon from the p39 was really realy hard. Now very easy.

How can there be so much difference between then and now?
Deflection shooting was really hard aswell as it should be!

Anyone agrees? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif again people don't complain fast when things get more easy.

[This message was edited by Slechtvalk on Sat May 22 2004 at 01:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by Slechtvalk on Sat May 22 2004 at 09:20 AM.]

LuckyBoy1
05-22-2004, 01:56 AM
Let me tell you a secret... come close, I don't want anybody else to hear this... PLANES DON'T TAKE GETTING SHOT VERY WELL!!!!!

What are they made of? Come on, you can tell me! Yes, not such tough stuff like wood and aluminum. Even with the alloys, is it very thick? Really, it is? Then why is there a designated area where you can step on the wing? To step anywhere else is to invite damage to the airfoil. What's inside the wings and sometimes behind the pilots' seat? Can we say "high test gasoline" boys and girls? My old WWII B-29 pilot friend says that WWII planes, including the fighters were kinda like a hot beer can with high test gasoline inside. To this, they add an engine and guns! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Arcade like is dumping 150 rounds into an armor plated FW (funny how it's faster than my aluminum plane while being made of two inch armor plate (or so it reacts in this game before the patch).

The bad news is things have changed. The good news is, it has for your enemys' planes as well. Try not to get shot. I think you'd find that the FW pilots who actually like, survived the war tried very hard not to get shot.

Solutions for internet security & spyware problems... http://www.geocities.com/callingelvis911/s_s.html

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 02:18 AM
I am not talking about the damage the bullets are inflicting.

The bullets fly to much straight and hit the target to easy.

LuckyBoy1
05-22-2004, 02:25 AM
You were expecting curve balls from rifled bullets? Try not to get shot.

Solutions for internet security & spyware problems... http://www.geocities.com/callingelvis911/s_s.html

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 02:32 AM
I am just saying that shooting was 1 of the hardest things but now it's very easy. For me personal shooting in the orginal il-2 felt more realistic and the difference between then and now is HUGE!

BigPhatBubba
05-22-2004, 05:15 AM
Sorry man, as a part-time player I find the shooting just right. There is just too many varibles about shooting from a plane to put into a computer sim. The only EASY shooting is the darn enemy gunners who keep wacking me everytime I get into max range.

Bubba

widgeon
05-22-2004, 05:32 AM
One still needs to hit the target, that hasn't changed in FB/ACE.

When reading historical accounts, such as in Lipfert's book, he speaks of getting one or 2 good bursts into the opposing aircraft and they went down. Sometimes using only mgs, as his cannon frequently jammed.

Therefore the difficulty in air to air gunnery is hitting the other plane. After that the ammount of ammo required varies with type, and opposing craft, but taken on the whole should not be that much. (I know there are examples of planes with lots of holes, but those are lucky ones, and probably relatively rare)

This seems accurate as it is in FB.


Widgeon

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 06:05 AM
Again when its more easy people are happy.

widgeon
05-22-2004, 06:40 AM
So, do you propose making the bullets fly crooked, and only making 1/2 of the hits count.

That way its harder, and YOU would feel better about it, eh?

All the while ingoring the fact that in FB bullets fly in a ballistic arc as they should, velocity, and energy are modeled.

I'm not purposely being confrontational, but you seem to be judging this by a totally subjective feeling of how it was in Il-2, thats OK, we obviously feel differently.



Widgeon

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 06:45 AM
I am not saying making 1/2 of the hits count and then it's good.

When you shoot at 50 meters it should be easy. When you shooting from 100 mtrs it should be 100% harder and when shooting from 300 meters almost impossible. This is realistic, now it's possible to shoot of wings from 600 mtrs with only your machineguns.

CHDT
05-22-2004, 08:46 AM
Just as an info here's a trajectory chart for a 20mm cannon from the fifties:

http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/16105/sfd.jpg

VW-IceFire
05-22-2004, 09:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slechtvalk:
I am not saying making 1/2 of the hits count and then it's good.

When you shoot at 50 meters it should be easy. When you shooting from 100 mtrs it should be 100% harder and when shooting from 300 meters almost impossible. This is realistic, now it's possible to shoot of wings from 600 mtrs with only your machineguns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? You must aim much better than I do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

About 90% of my kills are all within 200 meters or less...generally I open fire at 250 and I achieve the kill (if I manage to hit and down the aircraft) around that point.

Thing is that everyone here has way more hours shooting than the average WWII pilot...but even more to the point, I've read that the average hit percentage for the average pilot is around 3 to 5 percent. Most pilots in an online room seem to achieve this. I usually get 9% or 12% at best and thats when I fire only when I feel I have a good chance of hitting. So things don't seem too off to me with regards to shooting...its not easy and many pilots have trouble with it...especially in their first few hours with the game.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 09:26 AM
I almost never shoot at 600 or 700 mtrs, don't get me wrong. Not saying it's easy to shoot from that distance but quite possible to shoot of wings with only your machineguns. I can make a track if you would like http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Slechtvalk
05-22-2004, 10:06 AM
I made a track. Shot off a wing from about 850 mtrs with easy.

download here (http://www.mkbgroep.nl/track/shooting2.ntrk)

http://www.mkbgroep.nl/track/easy.jpg

pdog1
05-22-2004, 10:43 AM
Slechtvalk is 100% right.
Shooting is WAY more easier in this patch.
I mean if you don't see it your blind.
I was playing quick action dogfights the other day with my squad mmates, me in Hurri IIC him and 109F4 and i was gitting hits on his airplane from at least 1000m... before it would be impossible as hell to pull that shot off

Slechtvalk
05-27-2004, 03:31 PM
bump

Hoarmurath
05-27-2004, 05:22 PM
Well, it seem that numerous charts borrowed by some people around show that some FB weapons are not accurate enough. I wonder how gunnery will be modelled in PF. And in BOB. I agree that some weapons seem easier to use than before... Is it more realistic now than it was in IL2 for example? I don't know. But it is somewhat easier in my opinion.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

mr_Decent
05-27-2004, 06:34 PM
WouldÔ┬┤nt the difference between your comfy chair and smooth joystick compared to the GÔ┬┤s and noise and shaking and stuff, and the stick being harder to pull and all that...matter to how precise you could aim too?
Just a thought, I agree aiming it was harder in original IL-2 though...

NegativeGee
05-27-2004, 07:19 PM
So Slechtvalk & those who agree with him, what exactly is it about air to air gunnery that you think is easier since 2.01 came along?

-Less shot drop due to gravity/drag?

-certain weapons are more accurate?

-longer projectile ranges?

-targets are more easily hit?

-planes take damage more easily?

-something else??

Because try as I might, I don't see what is "easier" about gunnery post patch.

Planes generally took more damage to down in the days of IL-2, but (to me at least) the job of putting those shots on target seems much the same as ever......

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G├╝nther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

WWMaxGunz
05-27-2004, 09:00 PM
You fire a good burst and it takes only 1 hit sometimes to break a wing perhaps?

Bigger shells are usually more accurate at longer ranges. It depends on the initial velocity and rifling spin, the Mk108 I would not compare to a 20mm starting at near twice the velocity for instance but many 20mm's are much better at long range than about anything smaller. A 37mm with decent initial velocity will have a flatter trajectory =with distance= because it will hold speed better =with time=.

Someone must be aiming at a non-dodging target and have his plane flying very smoothly if he can reliably whack wings off at 800+ meters. Time of flight for those cannon shells must be over a whole entire second. Perhaps the planes are easier to hold steady, including easier to keep in coordinated flight which has been in all of FB, IIRC.


Neal

Slechtvalk
05-28-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
So Slechtvalk & those who agree with him, what exactly is it about air to air gunnery that you think is easier since 2.01 came along?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


First hitting the target is much more easy since one of the latest patches from il-2 when all bullets where CALCULATED (very important, not sure which patch that was). From then I noticed gunnery in all aspects was easier.

For me it feels that the planes got magnetos inside and bullets don't fall enough down to earth and inflicting to much damage on long range.


Almost anyone is a good shooter now, I wonder why....

Perhaps Ubi wanted it more easy so it sells better?

bazzaah2
05-28-2004, 05:42 AM
maybe those who find it easier are just getting better?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Slechtvalk
05-28-2004, 05:49 AM
It's not that I am better.

But that is what most players believe now because shooting is easy but they think their skills has just improved http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

609IAP_Recon
05-28-2004, 06:20 AM
I think you are really asking why damage is inflicted from distances like your screenshot.

I too think that is too far. I like the current damage, etc... just not from that far. .20-.30 would seem good - most accounts I read, they would be very close before firing, not .80+

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

VW-IceFire
05-28-2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG50_Recon:
I think you are really asking why damage is inflicted from distances like your screenshot.

I too think that is too far. I like the current damage, etc... just not from that far. .20-.30 would seem good - most accounts I read, they would be very close before firing, not .80+

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...although some P-38 pilots reported getting kills out to a fair distance (which is entirely possible in this game). The more serious fact is that anyone with wing mounted guns and a fair number of the guys with centerline mounted guns aren't going to realistically fire at those ranges. The bullets start to drop on most weapons just past convergence and that kills your aim.

I haven't noticed the aim being any easier now than in previous patches. I pride myself on precision gunnery if and when at all possible and its still a tough job.

And whats this about when all bullets were calculated? Are all bullets not cacluated now? Very confusing statement...please clarify.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

EmbarkChief
05-28-2004, 08:07 AM
I seem to recall that since all the rounds were not calculated in the "old" days they upped the damage infliced by each round to compensate. Now, if they have fixed the round counting issue and not lowered the damage potential for each round back to realistic levels we could have a problem. I don't know either way, but its something to consider.

NegativeGee
05-28-2004, 10:29 AM
About the individual bullet modelling, wasn't that introduced in FB 1.00?

I don't doubt that my deflection shooting is better now than when I started out in IL-2, but the job of actually landing those shots on target seems about the same as ever.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G├╝nther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Slechtvalk
05-28-2004, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
About the individual bullet modelling, wasn't that introduced in FB 1.00?

I don't doubt that my deflection shooting is better now than when I started out in IL-2, but the job of actually landing those shots on target seems about the same as ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was introduced in one of the latest or latest patch from il-2. I flew the p39 allot and the difference before all bullets where calculated and after was huge.

Not many players where able to get kills with the p39 cannon but after that bullet patch it was so much more easy. Deflection shooting the same! so much difference!

Obi_Kwiet
05-28-2004, 05:12 PM
I think it's not so much that the .50 are bad, which to a certian extent they are, but that the other AC have too little dispursion. Man, have you SEEN the I-185?!? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif There like lasers!

pdog1
05-29-2004, 12:08 AM
Well if your a freak and play online everyday like me you would know its totally wack now.
People are always making BS shots like WTF thats impossible. And no they didn't get any better, shooting is just way more easier, its really lame... shooting is one thing in this game that took skill, disipline and patience to master, now any silly noob can you give you a lobotomy at 750 meters, you might as well uncheck Realistic Gunnery off from difficulty settings because its not difficult at all in 2.1

WWMaxGunz
05-29-2004, 02:30 AM
So almost nobody misses at long range?
And people who play every day don't get better?
And the planes are no steadier than before?

So it must be homing bullets?

There is a thread on dispersal of the .50's.
There is also that cannon rounds that previously
did NO shrapnel damage because of a BUG no do, it is fixed. So maybe you hit and were hit
before but didn't know or don't care because it
wasn't a kill.

But don't take time to check things, just... you know.

Obi --- more dispersal makes easier hits if you
just fire longer. Less dispersal makes easier
to miss but yeah at very long range there is a
good spread where the 50's maybe get 1 or 2 hits
where the others get 10.


Neal

GAU-8
05-29-2004, 04:37 AM
i dont know exactly what it is... but its different. (but i dont believe the guns are "harder hitting")..but it is different.

im probably like what..the only guy that flys fulltime YAK9K... i took pride in the fact that it is a skill to MASTER this highly unstable platform (remember..once you have a single gun... you realise 100 percent of the "other aircraft" in this sim IS a "spray n pray" aircraft.. even at short burst.

i was DECENT at it, at best,AT BEST!!.. i just took a two month hiatus from the game, just installed the patch...now im a freakin killer!
(this is online, and majority of my shots are now high deflection....up to 90 degrees) it was NEVER like this before...(and this is from NEVER using the machine gun.... 45 mil cannon only)

if you dont notice how much easier it is..then your flying an aircraft that has too many guns for you to tell the difference. not that im trying to start a fight..but some people dont see it until they get to bare essentials..

there is no way im a better shot, ESPECIALLY after a two month break, and starting up with a new patch.

[This message was edited by GAU-8 on Sat May 29 2004 at 03:46 AM.]

PlaneEater
05-29-2004, 05:30 AM
Anybody wonder if maybe we ARE getting better?

We're putting in more flying time, almost all of it in combat, than even most front-line WWII pilots had a chance to, and without the whole 'fear of dying' thing.

I'm wondering if we're just picking things up faster and getting better, because we have a far better learning environment...

609IAP_Recon
05-29-2004, 08:19 AM
pdog always makes outlandish comments.

I find it currently to be pretty good. What he doesn't realize, or comprehend is that in the version before there were some bugs and not all packets were being transferred online.

Therefore not all bullets were hitting the target.

Now they do, and all we are seeing is not some improvement in anything, simply now the bullets are actually registering.

The distance issue has always existed and is not related to this patch. We've seen green bullets travel pretty far and we have hundreds of topics regarding rate of fire, etc... that can be studied here in the forum.

To simply make some statement that the sky is falling in 2.01 is just incorrect.

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

Slechtvalk
05-29-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG50_Recon:
I find it currently to be pretty good. What he doesn't realize, or comprehend is that in the version before there were some bugs and not all packets were being transferred online.

Therefore not all bullets were hitting the target.

Now they do, and all we are seeing is not some improvement in anything, _simply now the bullets are actually registering_.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Oleg said it would make no difference whatsoever but he changed it because people where complaining.

But it did make a big difference so I wonder something went wrong. The p39 37mm cannon (for me best example) should not been changed even when all bullets where calculated, but it did.

I just read your post again. This is not the 'all bullets caculated' where you are talking about? Didn't heared about packets losses before which didnt registered hits.

[This message was edited by Slechtvalk on Sat May 29 2004 at 07:46 AM.]

609IAP_Recon
05-29-2004, 09:21 AM
roger, that was a known issue in 2.0 one of the biggest problems.

had to do with the anti-cheat measures, basically they went overboard on this and it caused some problems (like we saw with the sound dll problem)

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg