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View Full Version : Unsynched wing guns in 4.02m ??



SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 08:32 AM
Can anyone verify if this issue was resolved in 4.02m released?

Not whining--just curious if anyone knew (I'm at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ).

* _54th_Speeder *

***
One asks, many answer, all learn.
--Plato - on the 'Forum'
***

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 08:32 AM
Can anyone verify if this issue was resolved in 4.02m released?

Not whining--just curious if anyone knew (I'm at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ).

* _54th_Speeder *

***
One asks, many answer, all learn.
--Plato - on the 'Forum'
***

BaldieJr
10-18-2005, 08:40 AM
The new P47 thing appears to be unsynced. I didnt do any real testing. I did noticed that it'll knock the nose off a FW at 500 meters.

I dont recomend head-ons with the thing unless your drivin it.

blackpulpit1970
10-18-2005, 08:53 AM
What was the convergence setting if i may ask.

WOLFMondo
10-18-2005, 09:03 AM
There not unsync'd they just fire allot faster.

FlatSpinMan
10-18-2005, 09:23 AM
I haven't followed the debate about this much so please excuse my ignorance. I have tried the patch though and thought I might be able to help.
By unsynched I asume you mean they DO NOT fire tracer rounds at the same time? If that is correct, then the answer appears to be no, they are not unsynched. When I tried it out the p47 and P51 both fired pairs of tracer rounds (one left wing, one right wing). On the P47, the outboard left and outborad right guns fired simultaneously. Didn't seem to be much swaying around from recoil though.
I hope this answer is what you are looking for.

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 09:46 AM
FlatSpin--

No problem, I'll explain (briefly). The wing mounted guns of most planes are incorrectly synchronized in game (one exception is the P-40E Field Mod, I believe). This means that the tracers (and rounds, for that matter) come out all together at the same time. That's great hitting power, but the problem is when trying to do deflection shooting, the enemy planes can easily (and I mean easily--by 10s of meters) slip through the packets of bullets being emitted.

So apparently, this was to much to fix on all the planes affected and the implication is that they upped the firing rate a bit to help compensate.

Oh well. I'll double check it tonight when I get home.

This was really the only thing I was hoping for to get fixed.

* _54th_Speeder *

BaldieJr
10-18-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blackpulpit1970:
What was the convergence setting if i may ask. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

175 meters I think. I bounced the nose and squeezed the tit about a second. The whole front of that bird lit up.

HayateAce
10-18-2005, 09:52 AM
No it is not fixed, the .50s still come out as goopy globs. Also, all non-russian allied aircraft still bobble and weave all over the place like some **** drunkard.

It's like they have no vertical stab.

FlatSpinMan
10-18-2005, 09:56 AM
Here's a weird thing I noticed while trying out the 190 )A8 i think). This doesn't seem right. Anybody...
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/FlatSpinMan/newpatchguns.jpg

Sithspeeder - I from what you said, it does seem they remain unsynched. Happily i fly VVS or LW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

T_O_A_D
10-18-2005, 10:01 AM
You only see that on the big guns, when not moving forward with speed. It did it in older versions aswell.

FlatSpinMan
10-18-2005, 10:03 AM
Really? Interesting. Thanks TOAD&gt;

SeaFireLIV
10-18-2005, 10:04 AM
Great, they say now the 0.05s fire like rapid laser beams do they? Why do i get the feeling that the 0.50s are being turned into something other than was in reality? Maybe they can`t do unsynchronised, so he`s done this instead. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I noticed Oleg`s learned not say what he thinks of how 0.50s ought to fire, it seems he`s resigned to just upp the speed of it now. Is this realistic? Or just whine-pleasing? I fear the latter.

Where does all this whining get you guys if you end up with an aircraft that fires stupidly? Was synchronisation ALL that important? Really? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Diablo310th
10-18-2005, 10:10 AM
Seafire...what we wanted was un-synched guns. The space between packets of rounds was huge. A bomber could fly between packets making it almsot impossible to deflection shoot. If this is how Oleg fixed it I'm not really pleased with this aspect. I was hoping for a realistic fix. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

WOLFMondo
10-18-2005, 10:13 AM
Diablo, I agree, un sync'd guns is whats needed but what we got is ultra fast firing .50's. I suspect its an engine limitation to do with online network traffic. Either way it ain't realistic and should be put back to 4.01.

Hoarmurath
10-18-2005, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Seafire...what we wanted was un-synched guns. The space between packets of rounds was huge. A bomber could fly between packets making it almsot impossible to deflection shoot. If this is how Oleg fixed it I'm not really pleased with this aspect. I was hoping for a realistic fix. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have a track where a plane flew between packets?

Friendly_flyer
10-18-2005, 10:34 AM
As far as I know, only every 5th round is supposed to be tracers, at least that were the case with the M2 we had in the Army. The other rounds are there, they just aren€t visible. The Browning have a fire-rate of 10/sec, which mean each gun should emit a tracer every half second. Desynchronising the tracers shouldn€t have any effect on the damage or damage pattern, it just means you€ll se tracers coming one or two at the time, not in groups of four.

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 10:46 AM
FF--

You are incorrect. There was a HUGE thread in ORR showing pics hitting the ground and all. See http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/2231006943

Seafire--check out that thread (what Diablo said).

The hits on the ground ARE NOT JUST TRACERS but all bullets being fired. Tracers are a more visible way to determine if they are firing synchchronized or unsynchronized in the air.

If the rates got upped dramatically, I agree this is not an optimal fix. But if they got upped "a bit", I don't see a real problem with it. Let's run some tests!

* _54th_Speeder *

Saunders1953
10-18-2005, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I bounced the nose and squeezed the tit about a second. The whole front of that bird lit up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Naughty boy.

anarchy52
10-18-2005, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
There not unsync'd they just fire allot faster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong. I tried P-51D and here is what I found:
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/unsynched.jpg
although fire effect shows all guns fireing together, tracers are definitely unsynched.

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 11:23 AM
Anarchy--

Nopers...you're seeing the one that is off-synched from the others (it is still synched, as the interval is fixed relative to the other five guns). Read the thread from ORR in my earlier post.

OK, here's the scoop.
400 rounds for two inboard guns
270 rounds for four outboard guns

Another poster mentioned 10 rounds/second. (can anyone verify this is true?)

That means it should go 40 seconds and 27 seconds, respectively. I'm getting 33 and 23 seconds in 4.02m.

BEFORE YOU PATCH, can someone do a time test on the P-51D and see how long the guns last in QMB? I forgot to do this first before the install http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I also did the ground fire test...still synchronized. Oh well--we'll make do.

* _54th_Speeder *

anarchy52
10-18-2005, 11:39 AM
@SithSpeeder:

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/unsynched2.jpg


could have fooled me...

lbhskier37
10-18-2005, 11:42 AM
I saw the same thing with a quick pass on water with the F4F-4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think I'm liking this patch.

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 11:45 AM
@Anarchy--

I should have taken a screenshot. Oh well.

Methinks you are flying too flat (and over undulating water). Try going into a vertical dive (or even slightly inverted vertical) at flat ground, start firing, and pull hard. This is typically the type of shots done when trying to BnZ from above.

This wasn't a whine. As a matter of fact, the LW flyers in the original thread all agreed it needed to be fixed, too.

* _54th_Speeder *

masaker2005
10-18-2005, 11:46 AM
Where did you get 4.02?

jimDG
10-18-2005, 11:51 AM
Got on the AFJ server - Flew the ta-152 against p51. Outran it with ease in 10 deg climb, about 520 km/h starting at 500m. Then we reversed positions - the p51 flew at 50m, straight, and ouran me (I was moving at 505km/h)
Flew some more against p51 and p47 - those 50s sure pack a punch now - I got shot down 4 times, and it took just a "cling-cling" each time (two repeated sounds of bullets hitting the fuselage).

Monson74
10-18-2005, 12:35 PM
M2s are NOT de-synced in 4.02. Easy to check: Pick any M2 armed plane in the QMB, fly at 1500m, invert & pull back hard while firing your guns - take a look at the externals & see how the strike pattern is on the ground or water.

jds1978
10-18-2005, 12:52 PM
either way i'm raising more hades w/ my .50 cals in 4.02 vs 4.01 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kuna15
10-18-2005, 12:57 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/Kuna15/Pacific_Fighters/p51-402-dispersion.gif P-51 4.02 bullet stream

I can see a pattern here, so my conclusion is that the M2 is way it was in 4.01. I checked F4U-1A also with same result.

Friendly_flyer
10-18-2005, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
FF--
You are incorrect. There was a HUGE thread in ORR showing pics hitting the ground and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. There aren€t huge gaps between the bullet groups; it's just that you only see every 5th bullet. It is very evident from Cunhas picture (above). That the tracers come out in groups of four is rather annoying, but the "gap that a buss could pass through" is a myth.

Kuna15
10-18-2005, 03:51 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/Kuna15/Pacific_Fighters/P-40_bullet_stream.jpg

Maybe you guys are reffering to this picture?

RedDeth
10-18-2005, 04:10 PM
AFJ SERVER... http://www.fighterjocks.net link.

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 04:26 PM
think the 50cal has a rof of 13~ per sec

teawagon says the same. 10 is maybe for other type of 50cal (ground?)

hispanos have a rof of 10~

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Anarchy--

Nopers...you're seeing the one that is off-synched from the others (it is still synched, as the interval is fixed relative to the other five guns). Read the thread from ORR in my earlier post.

OK, here's the scoop.
400 rounds for two inboard guns
270 rounds for four outboard guns

Another poster mentioned 10 rounds/second. (can anyone verify this is true?)

That means it should go 40 seconds and 27 seconds, respectively. I'm getting 33 and 23 seconds in 4.02m.

BEFORE YOU PATCH, can someone do a time test on the P-51D and see how long the guns last in QMB? I forgot to do this first before the install http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I also did the ground fire test...still synchronized. Oh well--we'll make do.

* _54th_Speeder * </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

400/13 = 30.769 secs
270/13 = 20.769

rof maybe abit low then..

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 04:30 PM
your figures say a rof of 12.12 and 11.739

Aaron_GT
10-18-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A bomber could fly between packets making it almsot impossible to deflection shoot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

300 mph TAS (typical max bomber speed) is about 150 m/s. ROF of a 50 cal is 13 per second. So for one gun the time between shots is 0.075 seconds (roughly) and so the bomber would travel 11m in this time. 11m is longer than the average fighter to it is entirely possible for a fighter to slip between synchronised 50 cal bursts at full deflection, but a bomber, being rather larger, is unlikely to be totall missed unless the ROF is also modelled incorrectly.

However with synchronised guns the distribution of hits is clumpy - you will almost certainly hit with one clump of rounds, but less likely two.

If you are attacking a bomber at full deflection with a P51 (assuming correct targeting) you are assured of 6 hits, with a fair chance of 12. If the bomber is about 17m long then the average will be 9.

If the guns were totally interleaved then you'd expect a round fired every 0.075/6 or 0.0125 of a second, and a 17m target is in the danger zone for 17/150 or 0.11 seconds - i.e. 9 rounds on average. So no difference. But since in the second case you get rounds all over the target you have a chance of just happening to hit something critical. With the first instance you are less likely to hit something critical, but if you do you are almost certain to destroy it.

More rounds on target, of course, with slower or bigger targets, less deflection, and the analysis assumes you are targeting correctly, and there is still the chance of entirely missing a fighter.

FritzGryphon
10-18-2005, 04:33 PM
The belt loading is the same. Still 1 tracer per 4 rounds (APIT, AP, AP, HE)

The ROF I get is 12.5-13 rounds per second (give or take for measuring error).

The P-51 has always had that 1 gun that was different. F4F and P-47 are synced. No changes I can see in 4.02.

Professor_06
10-18-2005, 06:52 PM
my perception is that the 50s have much less dispersion. When i fire looking throught the gunsight closup, there appears to be better bullet convergence with the new P47. I haven't check the P51. But these are only 11111's and 0000's. Its (Armament) all relative to the damage model algorithm. I think we have less shotgun effect.

griego
10-18-2005, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/Kuna15/Pacific_Fighters/P-40_bullet_stream.jpg

Maybe you guys are reffering to this picture? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


according to this picture a bus could pass though without getting hit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

with synced guns.

Gibbage1
10-18-2005, 08:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by griego:

according to this picture a bus could pass though without getting hit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

with synced guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya. I did that test. If you look at the shadow by the synced tracers, a B-17 can park between groups. Thats nose to tail and still not get hit. Now, if your behind a B-17 its a LOT smaller then the distance from nose to tail. About 7 B-17's can fit in that area between gaps.

And Hoar, nobody needs a track. Just look at the screen shot.

Gibbage1
10-18-2005, 09:01 PM
4.01M P-51guns.

Outer 4 guns fire for 22 seconds.

Inner 2 guns fire for 31 seconds.

1 gun in the outer set fires faster then the others and runs out of ammo a few seconds before the other 3. That gun is not synced at all with the others.

Gibbage1
10-18-2005, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/unsynched2.jpg
could have fooled me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like you were firing at a low angle. The grouping wont show up unless your at a high angle and in some deflection.

FritzGryphon
10-18-2005, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my perception is that the 50s have much less dispersion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The dispersion was correct in 4.01. It does not appear to have changed in 4.02.

SithSpeeder
10-18-2005, 10:43 PM
It looks like FritzG and Gib are the men with the answers...no change whatsoever between 4.01 and 4.02 with regards to the 51D guns.

Same synchronization, same duration of fire, and assuming the load of bullets hasn't change, same rate of fire.

Thanks to all who replied. It was fun to hope.

S!

* _54th_Speeder *

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 10:49 PM
the potency maybe increased, or planes weaker, but i dont think thats it..

Friendly_flyer
10-19-2005, 03:36 AM
No, I'm refering to this one:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/Kuna15/Pacific_Fighters/p51-402-dispersion.gif

As you can see, the groups of splashes from the bullets are much tighter together that the groups of tracers. Only every 5th bullet has a tracer! If a plane flies between the groups of tracers, they'll be hit by the groups of bullets that don't have tracers.

Kuna15
10-19-2005, 03:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by griego:

according to this picture a bus could pass though without getting hit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

with synced guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya. I did that test. If you look at the shadow by the synced tracers, a B-17 can park between groups. Thats nose to tail and still not get hit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I also believe to be the true.
On my picture above (white dots on sea), I have moved the nose of my airplane fairly slow. If I moved a bit faster (more elevator action) I would get results similar to yours (on ground dots screenshot) if not worse.

SeaFireLIV
10-19-2005, 04:02 AM
I think that this is one of those issues that if the guns were un-synced, Oleg would`ve posted it in the Readme.

Nuff said.

Brain32
10-19-2005, 04:09 AM
Well I just smoked the Dora with .50 in my SpitIXE from a 90 degree deflection, so maybe the thing is corrected but they couldn't do it visualy. We need to test more by shooting at the actual targets not by shooting at the ground.

IL2-chuter
10-19-2005, 05:00 AM
The chances of six or eight randomly picked fifties firing at the exact same rate in one airplane is rediculously remote. The Eighth Air Force tested the rate of fire on a Mustang (four guns) and found a 200 rpm difference between the guns on that plane, although normal rate of fire would be anywhere from 700 to 800 rpm. Some guns fitted with boosters were up to 950 rpm. I'm not sure how the T48 round affected rpm.

Friendly_flyer
10-19-2005, 05:55 AM
The first few rounds of a burst would come out synchronously. "De-synching" would only occur when the difference in rate of fire kicked in during a long burst. That is, unless the plane had a sort of "de-synching" apparatus holding off firing of some of the guns for a 20th or 50th of s second or so, which would stagger the firing. I can't quite see how that should come about, though.

Diablo310th
10-19-2005, 08:14 AM
Looks like this is our next point to work on with oleg.

1. De synch the 50's

2. ammo loadout API-API-API-API-APT

we can only hope. We really need to lose those AP and HE rounds from the US loadout.

Friendly_flyer
10-19-2005, 09:33 AM
I have an empty .50 ammo box of the type you€ll see on WWII vintage from my army days. It's from an infantry unit, but I'm quite sure the same belts were used in aircraft .50ies. Ammo is -AP-AP-AP-AP-APT-. It fits quite well with what I have seen on films like Memphis Bell, only every 5th round being visible (tracer).

In the army, we used this ammo bout for ground to ground shooting as well as for shooting at planes (well, rather at those sausage-shaped things hanging after a plane).

SithSpeeder
10-19-2005, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I can't quite see how that should come about, though.


Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What?! Just look at the P-40E Field Mod. We just want it like that (see Kuna's post, page 2 for the picture worth a thousand words)

* _54th_Speeder *

Gibbage1
10-19-2005, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I have an empty .50 ammo box of the type you€ll see on WWII vintage from my army days. It's from an infantry unit, but I'm quite sure the same belts were used in aircraft .50ies. Ammo is -AP-AP-AP-AP-APT-. It fits quite well with what I have seen on films like Memphis Bell, only every 5th round being visible (tracer).

In the army, we used this ammo bout for ground to ground shooting as well as for shooting at planes (well, rather at those sausage-shaped things hanging after a plane). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Belting was always changing. I think in Europ, AP's were used more. In the Pacific, API's more. In my books, pilots spoke about choosing there belting and requesting the change. I also read that aces prefer all AP belting since the enemy had no warning they were being shot. The problem is AP rounds are USELESS in IL2. Always have, and always will be. If AP rounds did damage, I would be happy with the current belting. Back when the P-39 has AP/HE belting, I would CONSTANTLY see 109's take a 37MM AP round in the engine and not even smoke. Once the P-39 got all HE rounds, I started scoring twice the kills.

Anyways, the HMG's are still synced, they should not be, and the P-40E Field Mod is proof they can be un-synced. P-40E Field Mod is also proof that un-syncing the guns would make them a LOT more effective. Nuff said.

Friendly_flyer
10-20-2005, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
What?! Just look at the P-40E Field Mod. We just want it like that (see Kuna's post, page 2 for the picture worth a thousand words)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently I have not expressed myself well. Kuna's 2nd picture show unsynchronised tracers in the game (witch I'm all for), I was talking about unsynchronised guns in real life. Notice that synchronisation of tracers and guns are not the same.

Unsynchronising tracers is very easy to achieve in real life, you just remove a few rounds from the beginning of some of the belts as you load the gun, and ad them at the end. Unsynchronising the guns is an other game entirely. The moment you pull the trigger of a Hurricane, Mustang or Thunderbolt, all guns go off, sending a quite synchronised salvo of 8 or 6 bullets, depending on the plane. The guns take about a 10th of a second to cycle, then sends of another 8 or 6 shots etc. Guns do not fire at quite the same rate, so after a second or so, guns will go of in random order, but the first 3 or 4 rounds will come in volleys.

The moment you let go of the trigger, all guns go through whatever stages are left to "ready and cocked". Next time you fire, they€re synchronised again.

SithSpeeder
10-20-2005, 09:15 AM
Friendly_flyer (Petter)--

AAARRRRGHHH! (I feel like Lucy in Peanuts). [NOTE: I give up after this, Petter, and will declare you the victor http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif )

What Kuna's picture shows is ALL SHOTS hitting the ground (tracer and real bullets)--not just the tracers.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Notice that synchronisation of tracers and guns are not the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In real life, the guns fire tracers and bullets totally unsynchronized...period.

In the game, the guns fire tracers and bullets totally synchronized for all planes with wing mounted guns (not including the P-40E Field Mod)...with one exception being one of the six guns on the P-51D.

Apparently, the in-game P-40E Field Mod fires its guns (bullets _and_ tracers) unsynchronized. We want all of the planes with wing mounted guns to fire like the P-40E Field Mod.

Do you understand?

* _54th_Speeder *

Friendly_flyer
10-20-2005, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
AAARRRRGHHH! (I feel like Lucy in Peanuts). [NOTE: I give up after this, Petter, and will declare you the victor </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to despair, Speeder, I think wee agree on most of the basic premises.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In real life, the guns fire tracers and bullets totally unsynchronized...period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tracers, yes, no doubt. Even if tracers was loaded carefully to be fired synchronised, the slight difference in ROF would make them unsynchronised after a burst or two. Of the planes in question, the one I fly the most, the Hurricane Mk.I actually has unsynchronised tracers. I would like to see this for the rest of them too.

Now, for the unsynchronised guns, we have a more complex situation. The guns would start off firing volleys, then become unsynchronised after a few rounds. That is, unless the planes in question had some sort of device that made a staggered initial firing of the guns. I can't say I have seen such a device, but if you know of one, I'll be happy to be corrected.

The real world situation of the guns is too complex to model i guess, so what we have is an approximation. Now, we might argue whether salvos or continuous streams best reflects real world. I guess it depends on whether you usually shoot short or long bursts. I go for short bursts, and I'm perfectly happy with the current situation (apart from the tracers).
Anyway, I don't think it would matter much. Even though you can fit a plane between the tracer groups, you can't fit planes between the bullet groups! (That is, if my AP-AP-AP-AP-APT estimate is right).

Gibbage: I re-checked my .50 box. The rounds are API's, not AP's. Or rather, they are Hartkern brand, it's German post-war production.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-20-2005, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Diablo, I agree, un sync'd guns is whats needed but what we got is ultra fast firing .50's. I suspect its an engine limitation to do with online network traffic. Either way it ain't realistic and should be put back to 4.01. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What test have you done and what facts have you documented to support this claim? I have been flying the JUG since FB release and see no difference in firing speed. Some evidence that they fire faster then IRL or faster the 4.01 would be a nice touch in the future.

Kuna15
10-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Just want to point out that the P-40E_M-105P (field-mod) bullet stream picture ain't mine, I think Gibbage originally posted it, I only saved it for occasions like these http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Browning50cal
10-20-2005, 02:50 PM
I'm not responding directly to 54th, just everybody in the thread. I've never actually flown a P-51 in combat. Or flown any plane at all that had a Browning M2 with API, ball or tracers. The game is fine.

Grey_Mouser67
10-20-2005, 03:58 PM
I'm actually suprised Oleg did not fix this one because, unless I'm totally misunderstanding how the ammo load outs are programmed, every gun on the plane is an individual gun and all you have to do is change the rate of fire slightly...unsynced guns, you'll notice, don't finish ammo at the same time...notice how that spit always has one .303 firing at the end? Its not because it has a different ammo count but because it is firing at a different ROF.

This should be pretty easy to do I'd think and would make a whole lot of people happy and some not so happy...and yes, we should be firing API's...at least mid to late war planes anyways.