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View Full Version : curious with 109 and 190 stall behavor after 4.02



HQ1
10-20-2005, 07:05 AM
Hi all, after new patch released I notice that 109 and 190's stall begins with the right wing drop firstly. however lots test articles said left wing first. Who can explain this?

HQ1
10-20-2005, 07:05 AM
Hi all, after new patch released I notice that 109 and 190's stall begins with the right wing drop firstly. however lots test articles said left wing first. Who can explain this?

VW-IceFire
10-20-2005, 03:11 PM
How about all planes? None of them seem to stall properly...4.01 was much better in this regard.

Grey_Mouser67
10-20-2005, 04:09 PM
I didn't know you could stall them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The plane with the wierdest stall characteristics is imho, by far, the P-51 Mustang...

Just go into a shallow dive and bring your speed up to somewhere around 550+km/hr and pull back....the Fw will actually want to begin to flip but wont if you lighten up...the 109, Spit, Hellcat, Jug, and Lightning are immune to stalls in this regime... I suspect it is partially related to elevator authority but there is obviously much more to it than just that.

The Mustang will instantly flip on its back without warning...it is absurd compared to the other aircraft.

Before you comment...go try it yourself...you owe it to all of us to try it before rendering an opinion.

edgflyer
10-20-2005, 04:59 PM
Yep,
The P51 still flys like a tub of butter

faustnik
10-20-2005, 05:10 PM
I was able to discuss the issue of P-51 control sensitivity with Oleg. Here is his comment:

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Mustang is more easy controlable for a pilot aircraft comparing to Bf-109 or FW-190. But in a sim we have a limit - the stick is one for all... But you could change the input curvers and get more right result. I recomment to use the close to picture to the midlle for all input curves recommended in manual for Pacific fighters. Thes ecurves are way more close to real control column and Joystick comparison then some try to set all on position 100.... (linear and wrong, but for some - its advantage in control, because they use it "right")</span>

Please try making these adjustments and then take the P-51 up again. It should make a difference.

Grey_Mouser67
10-20-2005, 06:11 PM
I do agree...I have messed with joystick settings and have been able to make the Mustang more controllable as a result..no doubt about it.

What I am really talking about in this post is not the controllability, but rather the lack there of in a stall situation relative to other aircraft.

Most aircraft stall, they drop a wing, lose altitude and recover. Some, with bad stall characteristics, stall and spin...like the P-39.

It is the tendancy of the Mustang to snap on its back, instantly, with little warning that I take issue with....I feel it is an issue with stall modeling, not stick settings. I can make the plane do this with any stick setting I've tried and, yes you have to be gentle or stall...but why is the Mustang so violent and uncontrollable relative to other aircraft? The plane, as far as I know, did snap stall and drop a wing rather suddenly in real life...but so did the Me 109 and Fw and the P-40 would often be accompanied with a spin and loss of a lot of altitude. The Jug was difficult to stall as was the Spitfire. The Hellcat was a gentle giant and the corsair could be vicious, especially at low speed while landing. The lightning was tops in class with no ordinance between its nacelles with a gentle mush and no torque induced roll.

None of the above aircraft were noted to flip on their back. I will continue to mess with settings since the new patch has definitely improved the elevator and ailerons of the Mustang...it wobbles as bad or worse and its snap stall is still there though and at this point, i do not attribute the stall to joystick settings. More testing required, though.

BigganD
10-20-2005, 06:13 PM
So far the patch is great for me.. reminds me of the early 04 betas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif wooohoO!!

HQ1
10-20-2005, 08:47 PM
If you hold the stick full back You do can make 109 or 190 stall. but the problem is right wing drops firstly now. In 4.01 I think it is ok. but now!!!! does This mean that 109or 190 's right turn is better than left turn now?

WWMaxGunz
10-20-2005, 09:27 PM
Some people on another forum have been reporting problems with some planes that after
they go through a dance with config files and stick setting changes get fixed. They've
been making so many changes they don't know which one or combination di the trick but
copying your old config.ini back at the end seems to be a common part of it after erasing
that and another (the sim makes new ones), creating a new player file, starting campaign
with that and basically swerving like to throw a tail off your trail... but it worked
for them. Billfish went from exremely unstable P-47's to hey now it's better.

Me, I haven't seen it yet but then I haven't tried so much.

ImpStarDuece
10-20-2005, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I didn't know you could stall them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The plane with the wierdest stall characteristics is imho, by far, the P-51 Mustang...

Just go into a shallow dive and bring your speed up to somewhere around 550+km/hr and pull back....the Fw will actually want to begin to flip but wont if you lighten up...the 109, Spit, Hellcat, Jug, and Lightning are immune to stalls in this regime... I suspect it is partially related to elevator authority but there is obviously much more to it than just that.

The Mustang will instantly flip on its back without warning...it is absurd compared to the other aircraft.

Before you comment...go try it yourself...you owe it to all of us to try it before rendering an opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being primarily a P-47 flyer, I have to disagree with this.

Dive and build up speed to about 500 kph and then pull back on the stick. Start gently and then increase pressure. Well before full elevator deflection you will get a wing drop and stall. The plane will then attmept to roll hard to the direction of the wing drop, usually the right.

edgflyer
10-22-2005, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I was able to discuss the issue of P-51 control sensitivity with Oleg. Here is his comment:

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Mustang is more easy controlable for a pilot aircraft comparing to Bf-109 or FW-190. But in a sim we have a limit - the stick is one for all... But you could change the input curvers and get more right result. I recomment to use the close to picture to the midlle for all input curves recommended in manual for Pacific fighters. Thes ecurves are way more close to real control column and Joystick comparison then some try to set all on position 100.... (linear and wrong, but for some - its advantage in control, because they use it "right")</span>

Please try making these adjustments and then take the P-51 up again. It should make a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you please explain better. Are we supposed to set our stick settings in the middle? Can show an example please.

OldMan____
10-22-2005, 04:02 PM
Well here tha fW190 is stalling LEFT... not much to dislike on it. And I am DRIVING it with a steering Wheel/rudders that I usually use for GTR playing. :P


But you are talking about accelerated stalls or slow stalls?

faustnik
10-22-2005, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by edgflyer:

Can you please explain better. Are we supposed to set our stick settings in the middle? Can show an example please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically yes. Reduce your sliders gradually until you find the sweetspot.

HQ1
10-22-2005, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Well here tha fW190 is stalling LEFT... not much to dislike on it. And I am DRIVING it with a steering Wheel/rudders that I usually use for GTR playing. :P


But you are talking about accelerated stalls or slow stalls? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember all test paper account that the fw190 stalls with left wing drop then flip over no matter accelerated stalls or slow stalls. but in 4.02 this plane flips to the right at accelerated stall. Maybe only Oleg can explain this in terms of aerodynamics.

WWMaxGunz
10-23-2005, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HQ1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Well here tha fW190 is stalling LEFT... not much to dislike on it. And I am DRIVING it with a steering Wheel/rudders that I usually use for GTR playing. :P


But you are talking about accelerated stalls or slow stalls? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember all test paper account that the fw190 stalls with left wing drop then flip over no matter accelerated stalls or slow stalls. but in 4.02 this plane flips to the right at accelerated stall. Maybe only Oleg can explain this in terms of aerodynamics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's nothing in how you fly it when you do that in the sim?
Because how a pilot rides the pedals and not the ailerons determines that roll direction.
Except in the sim the ailerons can be used pretty much the whole time it seems.

luftluuver
10-23-2005, 09:30 PM
Accelerated stalls in the 190 should always have the a/c flipping left. It does not matter if the a/c is in a right or left bank at the time. This had been documented in real life.

HQ1
10-23-2005, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
Accelerated stalls in the 190 should always have the a/c flipping left. It does not matter if the a/c is in a right or left bank at the time. This had been documented in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, just do an Accelerated stalls in 4.01 and in 4.02 respectively. you can see the obviously difference.no track needed because it is so simple to test it.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OldMan____
10-24-2005, 04:59 AM
Ok just to be more precise.. when pulling UP violently.. here it stalls left. When turning left too. When turning right it stalls right.


But if ONLY that is wrong, this is only a MINOR bug. It won't change the gameplay in any relevant way (as long as it stalls at the correct AOA)

Willey
10-24-2005, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I was able to discuss the issue of P-51 control sensitivity with Oleg. Here is his comment:

[color:YELLOW]Mustang is more easy controlable for a pilot aircraft comparing to Bf-109 or FW-190. But in a sim we have a limit - the stick is one for all... But you could change the input curvers and get more right result. I recomment to use the close to picture to the midlle for all input curves recommended in manual for Pacific fighters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT manual? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

HQ1
10-24-2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Ok just to be more precise.. when pulling UP violently.. here it stalls left. When turning left too. When turning right it stalls right.


But if ONLY that is wrong, this is only a MINOR bug. It won't change the gameplay in any relevant way (as long as it stalls at the correct AOA) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But in my opinion, we are talking about Sim not just a game like CS. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Viper2005_
10-24-2005, 08:53 AM
Fw-190 should give no warning of an impending stall in the clean configuration according to Eric Brown in Wings of the Luftwaffe.

In the game it gives plenty of warning via noise and buffet. I think this is a pretty important issue as it allows me to push the 190 rather harder than might otherwise be prudent.

OldMan___
10-24-2005, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HQ1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Ok just to be more precise.. when pulling UP violently.. here it stalls left. When turning left too. When turning right it stalls right.


But if ONLY that is wrong, this is only a MINOR bug. It won't change the gameplay in any relevant way (as long as it stalls at the correct AOA) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But in my opinion, we are talking about Sim not just a game like CS. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this was true than you would not play the game because it is on a flat panel known as Monitor and not ina true 3d world. Face it.. every sim is a GAME and the important stuff are the ones that keep the oeverall gameplay correct as it was in war. If plane drops right instead of left is a VERY VERY VERY minor bug if compared to much more serius issues. A 1,0 degree error on max AOA is much more important than this.

HQ1
10-24-2005, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan___:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HQ1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Ok just to be more precise.. when pulling UP violently.. here it stalls left. When turning left too. When turning right it stalls right.


But if ONLY that is wrong, this is only a MINOR bug. It won't change the gameplay in any relevant way (as long as it stalls at the correct AOA) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But in my opinion, we are talking about Sim not just a game like CS. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this was true than you would not play the game because it is on a flat panel known as Monitor and not ina true 3d world. Face it.. every sim is a GAME and the important stuff are the ones that keep the oeverall gameplay correct as it was in war. If plane drops right instead of left is a VERY VERY VERY minor bug if compared to much more serius issues. A 1,0 degree error on max AOA is much more important than this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok If U do not think it is important just go to other thread.

VFA-25_Peckens
10-24-2005, 06:39 PM
i never have problems with the p51 going into spins/stalls

throttling from 0-110% when u pull into a climp or turn will put u in a spin for sure, has for awhile

chn06
10-24-2005, 11:50 PM
It's important , tamper with left or right turn who is better..

God..Allah..Zeus..Sakyamuni and Oleg, correct it plz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

TX-EcoDragon
10-25-2005, 01:51 AM
Many aircraft will tend to drop the inside wing if other effects do not outweigh this tendency, if at low airspeed and high power torque may cause one wing to drop most of the time, at higher speeds and lower power aerodynamics plays a larger role. In any case, if the pilot is skidding the aircraft (more rudder than required in direction of turn) he will spin according to the rudder application. With respect to the original question, the reason many SIM aircraft drop the right wing in a situation where they really should drop the left wing is to do with the new gyroscopic effects of the prop. The problem is as you pull the stick back to initiate the stall departure the gyro effects result in a yaw to the right if the pilot fails to counter this effect with rudder, and this right yaw coupled with a stall in the sim is much the same as stalling and applying some right rudder . . . hence the right wing drop. In the real world this force is outweighed by aerodynamic or torque effects and is not usually playing much role int he determination of departure direction, and this is an issue that I mentioned as one of those that needs some fixing. The torque effects in 402 are a bit light, and the gyro effects are a bit harsher than they are in real life, both could use some tweaking.

chn06
10-25-2005, 02:56 AM
Good explain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HQ1
10-25-2005, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
Many aircraft will tend to drop the inside wing if other effects do not outweigh this tendency, if at low airspeed and high power torque may cause one wing to drop most of the time, at higher speeds and lower power aerodynamics plays a larger role. In any case, if the pilot is skidding the aircraft (more rudder than required in direction of turn) he will spin according to the rudder application. With respect to the original question, the reason many SIM aircraft drop the right wing in a situation where they really should drop the left wing is to do with the new gyroscopic effects of the prop. The problem is as you pull the stick back to initiate the stall departure the gyro effects result in a yaw to the right if the pilot fails to counter this effect with rudder, and this right yaw coupled with a stall in the sim is much the same as stalling and applying some right rudder . . . hence the right wing drop. In the real world this force is outweighed by aerodynamic or torque effects and is not usually playing much role int he determination of departure direction, and this is an issue that I mentioned as one of those that needs some fixing. The torque effects in 402 are a bit light, and the gyro effects are a bit harsher than they are in real life, both could use some tweaking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
well said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif