PDA

View Full Version : Me 109 K-4 or FW 190 D-9??



spacefrogs
07-31-2007, 12:43 PM
Which in your opinion was the best piston engined german fighter of WW2? In IL-2:1946, I have the feeling that the K-4 flies somehow better, what do you think?

spacefrogs
07-31-2007, 12:43 PM
Which in your opinion was the best piston engined german fighter of WW2? In IL-2:1946, I have the feeling that the K-4 flies somehow better, what do you think?

carguy_
07-31-2007, 12:57 PM
Pretty much the FW190A9.Much better than any late Gustav,just the game doesn`t want to reflect it.

Xiolablu3
07-31-2007, 01:03 PM
Dora for sure.

109K4 is nice at low speeds, but by late 1944 combat is taking place at 400+mph. The 109K4 just cannot manouvre at these speeds.

Try getting in a 109K4, diving down at 650kph and pulling up.

The Dora is beautiful at these speeds.

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-31-2007, 01:57 PM
I think, in general, the D9 will be more successful in generic hands. The K4 is more of a 'specialization' fighter.

JG14_Josf
07-31-2007, 02:24 PM
K4 is the stall (angles) fighter.

D9 is the energy fighter.

Nose to nose geometry and sustained horizontal turning favor the K4.

Nose to tail geometry and decelerating/accelerating vertical maneuvering favor the D9.

Using the wrong tactics for either plane will nullify the advantage of both planes.

Example:

Low and slow on the deck favors the 109K4

High and fast – diving and zoom climbs – stalling hammerheads – vertical rolling scissors favors the D9.

I think this is very clearly obvious based upon my personal experiences with both types.

Note: The 109K4 will explode when trying to bail out from a burning plane (as if the bail out key is a self-destruct button) so that plane is much inferior to the D9 for that reason alone.

P.S. The historical performance differences may not be accurately modeled in the game. Who knows?

JG4_Helofly
07-31-2007, 02:57 PM
According to il2c the dora is faster and is the better turner. The K4 has only a slight climb advantage.
I would take the D9.

K_Freddie
07-31-2007, 03:04 PM
Dora's for Alt > 5000m, although the A9 is just as good if handled well.

The K4 is a bit heavy with the cannon which takes the finer 'edges' away from you. A Late G6 is better at alt against the P51, but the K4's cannon is good for the P47.

Most online guys are undisciplined and with an A9 is quite OK as you can lead them down to lower alts and then kick butt.

It all depends who you up against and the numbers.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DKoor
07-31-2007, 03:12 PM
FW-190D9 is fastest piston in the German flying pferdekoppel.....

So there is the answer.

I value speed in ww2 clashes most.......

But....

If you ask me which one would you like to fly....

It's the Kurfurst be sure.

crazyivan1970
07-31-2007, 03:26 PM
Depends on what type of flying you preffer... pure energy fight, Dora, hands down... if you like to mix T&B and energy fight, then K4. But as mentioned above, K4 is in speed and high speed manueverablity not up to pair with Dora... but beats it in the climb rate... Always goods and bads http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mynameisroland
07-31-2007, 03:49 PM
Is it just me or is the Bf 109 K4 a bit cr4ppy at dogfighting. I can out turn one even if Im in a P47 D Late.

crazyivan1970
07-31-2007, 04:01 PM
Naw.. those are crappy pilots you came across... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I mean it`s not G2 or G6/AS, but still quiet good.

K_Freddie
07-31-2007, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Is it just me or is the Bf 109 K4 a bit cr4ppy at dogfighting. I can out turn one even if Im in a P47 D Late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Noob in the K4 ??

carguy_
07-31-2007, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Noob in the K4 ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s exactly what I was thinking.Impossible!

mynameisroland
07-31-2007, 04:36 PM
The Tempest can out turn the K4 guys you do know that? The K4 is a turd above 350km/h

HuninMunin
07-31-2007, 04:58 PM
Not if the K jock has half a brain and knows what trim and combat flaps are. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The only thing the Kurfürst can't turn with are Spitfires.

Brain32
07-31-2007, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Not if the K jock has half a brain and knows what trim and combat flaps are. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The only thing the Kurfürst can't turn with are Spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tell that to the 10.000 smoking holes left behind my Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Roland is quite right on the P47D_late too, I sure don't turn in defensive against anything when in K4, low speed vertical climbing scissors are the only cure, if you see the guy early enough and if the guy is stupid enought to enter one with you.

And btw. I would take FW190A8(not to even mention the D9) over Kurfurst any time, go figure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

mynameisroland
07-31-2007, 06:09 PM
I disagree Hunin, the only late war Messerschmidt that I fear is the Me 262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif All Late Bf 109s are **** because of the elevator. Trim on a slider cant remedy that basic flaw. Maybe if you want to avoid flying in to the ground it can be useful but it cant help with snap shot gunnery. Its useless rudder and airelons dont perform particularly well at speeds either.

Out of 60 kills in the Tempest I have only been shot down by a Fw 190 A8 by Jaws, a Ju88 whose AI gunner got me even though Id dewinged his plane and twice by a Me 262. Dozens of Bf 109s litter my stat page because they thought they could out turn me. After one or two turns it finally dawns on them, then they try to run .... lol

Trust me, the K4 is over hyped in IL2, its not fast enough to runaway and its not manuverable enough to stay and fight. That is a bad combination.

HuninMunin
07-31-2007, 06:41 PM
Anyone who gets in a high speed angles fight in a 109 ( any kind ) is out of his mind.
But even Spits sometimes fall for the bait and stall hanging to their prop in a &lt;320 km\h turnfiest.
Shure the Jug, Pony and Tempest stand the high ground above 400 km\h, but I've flown the 109 for too long to play at their game now.
Problem is that you are forced to fight slow in late war 109s; that's why I fly 190's from 43 on.
Speaking of littering 109s - I have some pretty vivid memorys of a Ukded2 evening where you, Zorin ,Daytraider and someone who's name I have forgotten hunted me down in your La-5s with me in a G-6 trying to dotch these 20 mm tracers that appeared to be everywhere I flew.
I don't know who got me in the end but that was one occasion were I wished for flying an Anton or Dora. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-31-2007, 06:58 PM
If the question is what is better, the BF-109 K4 or the Dora-9 the answer is easy. Dora hands down. I still prefer to fly the A5/6.

S!

DKoor
07-31-2007, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The Tempest can out turn the K4 guys you do know that? The K4 is a turd above 350km/h </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+1

crazyivan1970
07-31-2007, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The Tempest can out turn the K4 guys you do know that? The K4 is a turd above 350km/h </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That kind of shows that you are not familiar with K4 at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 350-400KM/H is the sweet spot for K4 and if i were you... i wouldnt play with K4 in Tempest at those speeds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 500+ is what you looking for...

@Brain32 you not alone buddy, i left quiet a few smoking holes left by Tempests too... maybe you were one of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

DEY_RAVEN_UK
08-01-2007, 01:15 AM
Here is a track i posted on Warclouds just to show that at the right speeds the K4 is a good fighter. I am fighting against a tempest and two P47's. The driver of the tempest i class as very skilled in WC.

As for the D9 or k4..Well that totaly depends on my mood..Both have good and bad points.

Usual criticism expected http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2686

Brain32
08-01-2007, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
@Brain32 you not alone buddy, i left quiet a few smoking holes left by Tempests too... maybe you were one of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could be, I remember I was shot by a 109 2-3 times this year http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

waffen-79
08-01-2007, 02:16 PM
In this sim? D-9 hands down

I use both the K-4 and D-9, It depends on the mood but I prefer the 109K-4

Speaking of 190's call me crazy but I mostly ride the A-9 and A-6

Xiolablu3
08-01-2007, 03:06 PM
I also love the FW190A6 and A9.

Both are formidable planes in 1943-44. FW190A6 is one of my favourite 1943 planes. SHes one of the best FW190 fighters in the game IMO.

fordfan25
08-01-2007, 08:30 PM
IN game for me the Dora 1944 version. The TA is faster high but iirc slower at low alt and not as good in a turn. And sence 80% of all fights in the servers i fly in start no higher than 15kft and end up on the deck The dora is more usefull. the k4 just has such horrible high speed controls.

spacefrogs
08-03-2007, 12:28 PM
Hi again guys,
at first thanks for all the replies. I followed the thread with big interest and read about the various that you guys use in MP with these two planes. I used to play MP when the IL2 first came out but cheating players those days made me quit. I play mostly single player campaigns now and my tactics are quite primitive at the moment, just immelmanns and some yoyos. May be with some practice I will find the courage to stand against you. Once again thanks for all the replies and help!!

Scorpion.233
08-03-2007, 02:17 PM
Did the controls of a 109 really lockup that bad in RL at high speeds?

JG14_Josf
08-03-2007, 02:32 PM
Stick forces and maneuvering in high speeds (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#stickforce)

La7_brook
08-03-2007, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scorpion.233:
Did the controls of a 109 really lockup that bad in RL at high speeds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Me 109 G:
- How difficult was it to control the 109 in high velocities, 600 kmh and above?
The Messerschmitt became stiff to steer not until the speed exceeded 700kmh. The control column was as stiff as it had been fastened with tape, you could not use the ailerons. Yet you could control the plane."
- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. but they were aloud to use two hands on the stick ,we must just use one hand in IL2

VW-IceFire
08-03-2007, 06:15 PM
FW190D-9 is hands down the better fighter in my hands versus the K-4. Thats because I've spent more time in the D-9 over the years and because it does what I expect it to.

The K-4 I have taken more of an interest in recently because of all of the complaining. I wanted to see if it were truly useless...which to my utter lack of shock I found it was not useless at all. The fighting styles are completely different and the K-4 is somewhat more forgiving in that it isn't ever going to be placed in a position where you feel like your teetering on a pin head between getting that last few extra degrees for a good shot or going into a snap stall.

The real trick of the K-4 is to manage its speed so its not too fast when it shouldn't be and fast when it needs to be. When you can do that you can surprise opponents by suddenly turning at a much increased rate they hadn't thought possible.

Vike
08-06-2007, 01:23 AM
Hunin-Munin,CrazyIvan & IceFire,i totally agree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

With its 23,36sec turntime @ 1000m,the Me109K4-B4 is the worst maneuverable Me109 of the whole game and necessitates a real discipline to master it against agile opponents. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
As a dedicated Me109-Late flyer,i discovered many things thanks to that bird,things that help me enormously when flying more agile Me109-Late like Me109K4-C3,G6/AS or G10. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To summarise,i would say:

-The Fw190A/Dora9,like Spitfire MkIX,have a fighting potential easier and quickier to reach.

-The Me109-Late and the K4-B4 in particular,have a bigger fighting potential,but they need many more attention to reach it and require that you think carefuly about everything you do during a fight.
An excellent aim is obvioulsy necessary for getting some pleasure when fighting with them.

One detail,for example,the leading edge slats:
If you maneuver brutally,they'll deploy for your plane not to stall,but in the same time,when deployed,they'll prevent you to accelerate or to outclimb a SpitIX in your six: You'll waste the 1850HP provided by the DB605DB engine! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The trick? Make rolls! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Rolls and barrel-rolls don't make the slats to deploy,then you'll be able to keep all your speed and even outroll SpitMkIX in many cases! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When fighting with the K4-B4,you must have an eye EVERYWHERE.
Hear the engine,look at the slats when you do maneuvers,think about using the combat flaps/trim when necessary etc...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Then,when you master all of those details,trust me,you'll become a flying monster and you'll forget Fw190A and Dora9 quite rapidly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

After what,when you fly more agile Me109-Late like K4-C3,G6/AS G14 and G10 (turntime @ ~22sec @ 1000m),you even feel over-uber! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif



----


After the argument,here are the examples http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
As the SpitMkIX is the only valuable opponent for the Me109-Late on the West-Front
(Sorry Bohemer,but the TempestMkV can't do anything against a well handled Me109,including the G6-Early http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif),i made tracks today on the WarClouds West-Front server.

So,I took a K4-B4,i repeat,the "worst maneuverable Me109 of the whole game",and i decided to encounter Spitfires MkIX on their own terrain:
The low-alt dogfight.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Quite risky,i admitt,but as IceFire said,when you know some tricks,you can surprise any enemy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Enjoy!

-Track(1):
Just snipe-shooting with MK108 only.
I simply intercome in a fight when the SpitIX thought he was safe...Lhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gifL

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF33.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF34.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF35.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF36.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF37.jpg



-Track(2):
Quite more interesting.Just after an emergency take-off,i went in a low-alt battle while a SpitIXeClippedWings that i didn't see was in my six.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

But fortunately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif when i saw him,thanks to the excellent roll-rate of my K4-B4,i could do a defensive barrel-rolls that completely surprised him! Then,he crashed himself. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF38.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF39.jpg

Some minutes later,i intercept another SpitIX behind a lonely Me109-K4-B4 (Peipus).
I use separately my guns and i did a real sniping fest with my MG131s!
The SpitIX suffered a lot of 13mm hits,then it broke-off and slowed-down,certainly due to the damages done by my twin-13mm.
I just had to get close to use my MK108.
RIP little SpitMkIX.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF40.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF47.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF41.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF42.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF43.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF44.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF45.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/WCWF46.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif - Here for the two tracks files NTRK - (http://vike01.free.fr/images/Vike_aka_Gluor_in_Me109K4B4.zip) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Who said MG131s were placebo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Who said Me109-late were easy kill for SpitMkIX? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Who said Me109K4-B4 was useless? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In the end this afternoon,i got 3 Spitfire MkIXe downed at low-alt with a K4-B4,and then i RTB safely.
Two i caught'n crushed downed with MK108 and MG131 used separately,and one i outrolled in a dive that made him to crash himself! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@+

mynameisroland
08-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Vike I have sorties where I destroy 5 or 6 Bf 109 F4s in a Hurricane II C. Does that make it better than say a Fw 190 A4 ? Or that it has more combat potential than a Spitfire Vb?

Im really happy that there are people like you who champion the Bf 109 and perservere with it. It gives a bit of balance to the "Bf 109 is sh1it! Oleg ATE MY HAMSTER !" crowd. Personally 95% of the time I do think its meat on the table whatever mid to late war plane I am flying but I have met one or two good Bf 109 pilots who can be very dangerous and at least force me to call it a draw.

So in a word is the Bf 109 K4 better than the Fw 190 D9 - No way. Not for me anyway.

Is the Bf 109 K4 utterly useless? For the majority of online noobs yes, because the Spitfire in IL2 is a wonderplane which average pilots can suddenly become aces in. But I have said this all along with a good pilot at the controls the late war Bf 109 G/K is still a tough opponent.

mynameisroland
08-06-2007, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The Tempest can out turn the K4 guys you do know that? The K4 is a turd above 350km/h </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That kind of shows that you are not familiar with K4 at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 350-400KM/H is the sweet spot for K4 and if i were you... i wouldnt play with K4 in Tempest at those speeds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 500+ is what you looking for...

@Brain32 you not alone buddy, i left quiet a few smoking holes left by Tempests too... maybe you were one of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary Ivan it shows that you are unfamiliar with the Tempest. In IL2 the Tempest can out turn the Bf 109 K4 at 350 km/h/ 400km/h easily. And it can follow it down to 250 km/h if you pop the flaps or even in to a climbing turn if you floor it hanging on your huge prop.

The K4s only strength in a dogfight against say the Tempest is its centrally mounted Mk 108, its good roll rate at slow speeds and its ability to climb well at very slow speeds. So to prosper you need to be good at a rolling scissor kind of fight and even then you have to hope that the pilot in the Tempest fights your kind of fight and is not as good as or a better pilot than you.

Im not talking out my a-hole here but when flying the Tempest I have been shot down only 1 or 2 times this year by Bf 109s. Once when I was jumped while rtbing with no ammo and I had him in my sights continually till I started to run out of fuel and had to disengage and the second was in a 3 vs 1 with a Ta 152 Booming and Zooming allowing the 2 Bf 109s an easy shot. I have never by shot down one that I have got on its 6 first. I play quite often, every Bf 109 pilot I encounter cant be a noob surely? But if you place a &gt; 2:1 K/D pilot in a Tempest who has years of flying Fw 190s and P 51s under his belt up against a &gt; 2:1 opponent who specialises in the K4 I'd pick the guy in the Tempest 9 times out of 10.

Just like if it was Fw 190 D9 vs K4 Id back the pilot in the D9 9 times out of 10.

Brain32
08-06-2007, 05:56 AM
I only fly 109 K4 because it looks smoking hot, it's combat potential I would rate as poor to extremely poor.

Oh and if you see me and Roland on a same server and both in Tempests - it's bailout practice day for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

VW-IceFire
08-06-2007, 06:50 AM
I don't know...I still think a K-4 in a low speed turn fight will beat a Tempest...but it takes time and the Tempest is usually going faster so it can both bleed and use its superior high speed turn rate to get angle on the 109. To be honest the FW190D-9 is a better turner too in this case because it can do the same thing...if you need angle you dump tons of energy at high speed to gain the necessary angle for the kill shot then break off quickly.

The 109s trick is that it doesn't dump energy quickly at high speed...once you can get it down to under 350kph then you can really pull back hard with complete confidence that you won't stall and get out of the firing angle but the margins are razor thin when faced with a Tempest diving in on the 109. Its the slow speed fight where the Tempest will burn energy for little gain and the pilot will be fighting the engine torque the whole time.

Vike I think makes a good point that you use the technique and strategy that works best for your plane. The Tempest is very favoured to a diving turn on target thanks to its awesome forward view, large wings, and excellent high speed handling. Vike, if you see a Tempest doing that at your 6...be careful! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mynameisroland
08-06-2007, 07:07 AM
My stance in most of these discussions is that the fight is usually decided after the 1st one or 2 moves - before the fight gets slow. The Bf 109s poor elevators are a huge disadvantage. Ofcourse at slow speeds it is a different plane but who wants to be fighting at 250 mph on a late war map? Thats suicide.

Thats why I back myself in a Tempest over a Bf 109 or if Im in a Hurricane IIC over a A6M.

A good gunsight and heavy firepower go a very long way. Years of chewing up La5FNs in Fw 190 A5s teaches you that. The Tempest gives you that and more because its performance in turn is so much closer to the enemies than in the traditional Fw 190 A5 vs Spit IX/La5FN match up.

It gives you more options and more confidence to press your advantage home. Sure you can end up with egg on your face but thats the pilots fault and not the planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kurfurst__
08-06-2007, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The Bf 109s poor elevators are a huge disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it's the Il-2 virtual pilots who only know to get grip on the stick with one hand.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If we could just use both hands on the stick... then the elevators wouldn't start freezing up up to about 500 km/h or a bit more, I would not care much what happens above that speed. But currently, with our 'single handed' pilots, half of the performance envelope is effectively missing.

mynameisroland
08-06-2007, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The Bf 109s poor elevators are a huge disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it's the Il-2 virtual pilots who only know to get grip on the stick with one hand.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If we could just use both hands on the stick... then the elevators wouldn't start freezing up up to about 500 km/h or a bit more, I would not care much what happens above that speed. But currently, with our 'single handed' pilots, half of the performance envelope is effectively missing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kufurst I agree, it is IL2's Bf 109 that is the problem not the real aircraft - although the real aircraft did have some limitations here it was surely not as bad as out one.

Kurfurst__
08-06-2007, 07:47 AM
I've been looking at Il-2 compare's 'fan plots' or 'doghouse' charts while you were typing this.. and it's indeed odd what I see there, I am not even sure it's the lack of maximum stickforce. It's simply that the lbs/G is probaly too great in the sim.

Looking at those IL2C graphs, which show maximum sustained turn rates and radiuses, it appears tha the maximum sustained Gs the best 109s from the F/G/K series , like the G-2, G-6AS, K-4 'C3' can pull in a sustained manner is 3Gs.. in case of the K4 'c3' the maximum speed up to a sustained 3G turns can be sustained is about 450 km/h at 1000m altitude. This value only gives hint about the airframe, power and drag combination, ie. how much drag it can absorb at a giving turn rate. Though it's certainly not bad at speed, only but a few notable turn monkeys do better - Spit9LF/+25, Jak9, Ki 84 etc - most are below that or about as good. The point I am making it's not airframe related, the airframe and the engine itself is capable pulling that much, provided the controls can be given the neccesary deflection for 3 Gs. I guess they should, the commonly quoted 20lbs/G stickforce for the 109 seems to allow about 3Gs or a bit more with a one handed stickforce (40-50lbs).

I should try it out wheter I can make a K-4/C3 actually achieve a 27 second sustained turn at 450 km/h in the sim at 1000m, as Il-2 compare suggest being possible, with neutral trim. This would be for a 3G turn. If I can't pull that sustained turn and not loosing speed either, it's simply a case of the stick force stability for the 109 is too high, above 20lbs/G, or, alternatively, the (generic) single handed stick force upper limit being too low, below 40 lbs). If I can achieve it with trim, then it's again a stickforce issue : the player simply can't pull enough deflection to achieve even 3Gs with neutral trim with the game's stick force limit..
If I can't achieve it even with trim, then it's a case of IL2C reporting false turn values.

Worth a try.

HuninMunin
08-06-2007, 08:11 AM
Definatly worth a try.
My mindset has pretty much changed from "if there's something wrong it should be fixed" to
"it won't be fixed so all I want is to see the big picture of how our ingame planes behave relative to eachother and their real counterparts."

So if you'd like any assistance on testing - I have plenty of time on my hands right now.

Ratsack
08-06-2007, 08:14 AM
While we're on the subject of cr@p elevator response, this board tends to get focused on the P-38 and Bf –109 where poor high-speed elevator response is concerned. For those you who don't fly VVS very often, have a spin in a MiG-3 or an early Yak. Not only are their elevators cr@p, they fall apart, too.

Cheers,
Ratsack