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Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 08:33 AM
So, has anyone seen the new Aviator (or Av8r, as the stick's labeled) yet? Was browsing the sight yesterday when I spotted it:
(Lol, teh Aviator!) (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/av8r.htm)

Some images:
http://www.saitekusa.com/images/300dpi/joysticks/AV8Rdyn.jpg

http://www.saitekusa.com/images/300dpi/joysticks/AV8Rrear.jpg

This is probably the coolest grip Saitek has come up with so far. (And probably the most realistic they'll come up with ever) Looks like it could go straight into a WWII fighter.

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 08:33 AM
So, has anyone seen the new Aviator (or Av8r, as the stick's labeled) yet? Was browsing the sight yesterday when I spotted it:
(Lol, teh Aviator!) (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/av8r.htm)

Some images:
http://www.saitekusa.com/images/300dpi/joysticks/AV8Rdyn.jpg

http://www.saitekusa.com/images/300dpi/joysticks/AV8Rrear.jpg

This is probably the coolest grip Saitek has come up with so far. (And probably the most realistic they'll come up with ever) Looks like it could go straight into a WWII fighter.

Bearcat99
08-23-2006, 08:38 AM
Looks interesting.. I can see tht trigger being a problem though..

JG52Karaya-X
08-23-2006, 08:51 AM
But the lack of a handrest will make it very uncomfortable and unusual at first I suppose http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Bandit.426Cdn
08-23-2006, 09:42 AM
It needs more work, it's ergonomically a disaster. Throttles in front, around the front of the joystick itself? I look at those front toggle switches, and think to myself, that those will last as long as the first drop to terra-firma. I'll keep the X52 setup, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

triad773
08-23-2006, 09:45 AM
They would have been better off developing a FFB HOTAS IMO. The throttles in front? Come on- a reach around every time you want to adjust that?

They've been smoking crack or something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 09:59 AM
Well, I personally like the grip. I think it's about time Saitek makes a more down-to-earth looking stick, however unergonomic (or however you spell it) it might be. But they might as well have just put the throttle on it's own base, instead of putting it up front. And you can count on Saitek to put the trigger in the most uncomfortable position possible.

russ.nl
08-23-2006, 10:00 AM
That looks like a great stick to modify. Nice and basic and lots of space for extra buttons. And not having the handrest gives it more of a oldy look and feel, I think.

Screw the front plate off and put a pease of Alu on it. Redirect the buttons to you desk mounted simpit. Lengthen the stick and see if you can modify the throttles. Perhaps for homebuild rudder and brakes or something.

BSS_AIJO
08-23-2006, 10:31 AM
Hey,

I am with russ.nl I already am pretty darn happy with my x52... Just a bit annoyed that I dont have enough controlls 8^P I had been looking for something with axises to be the prop pitch and mix. Those throttles will do nice. I can stick the rest of engine management on the buttons and call it a day. The stick part will have to go though.. Hmm now I am thinking I could frankenstine it up to add another axis for flaps on a lever and perhapse replace the usb board with the sweet one with all of the inputs and outputs and not need to run any software for it. I would be in controller heaven then.


BSS_AIJO

TheBandit_76
08-23-2006, 11:23 AM
Do one of those crazy 6 hour online sessions and see if the lack of a handrest is still cool. Like the direction of more military style switches and toggles, but with the placement of the throttles you'll end up looking like a monkey assaulting a football.

TooCooL34
08-23-2006, 12:25 PM
Their potentiometers will suck as they always have been.
The design is pure anti-ergonomics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Do one of those crazy 6 hour online sessions and see if the lack of a handrest is still cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Handrests are for weaklings. WWII fliers didn't use handrests on their 7-12 hour missions! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Airmail109
08-23-2006, 01:28 PM
I want one!

TC_Stele
08-23-2006, 01:36 PM
I like the toggle switches, but I think thats all I like about it, since I already have the X-52. Would be nice if they made a toggle switch component only as an addendum for their already made sticks.

BillyTheKid_22
08-23-2006, 01:52 PM
I am shocked!!!!!! New Saitek joystick!!! Aviator!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Pig_Mac
08-23-2006, 01:56 PM
As said earlier, it would be a nice thing to slaughter for it's parts, if it's cheap at least.

The position of the 'throttle' doesn't seem that bad, if used for prop pitch for each engine on your BoB Blenheim or something.

if it's less then 50$ I might get one.

BillyTheKid_22
08-23-2006, 02:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Howdy! Bandit.426Cdn, I did see picture!!!

fordfan25
08-23-2006, 02:02 PM
i'll *STICK* with my evo lol

airjunkie
08-23-2006, 04:24 PM
Web site is little slow.

Someone post a picture please.

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 05:13 PM
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/272/av8rdynsx3.jpg
Here you go mate.

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Hmm, just noticed the safety cover for the fire button. Does Saitek have a safety cover fetish or something?

Cdn.401GATOR
08-23-2006, 05:15 PM
I think raaaid could probably design a better stick..

Same Saitek Neanderthal design..

Return to center tension provided by a gdamn coil.

Someone already trashed the Pots, count me in too..

In today's day and age where even a cheap 5 dollar mouse uses optical feedback these guys are still using potentiometers??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

The Microsoft FFB2 had optical feedback and programmable return to center tension 10 years ago... It's a disgrace that these Saitek guys are still producing garbage and everybody thinks its great..

ZappaTime
08-23-2006, 05:24 PM
Well I love my Evo Force, but this new stick.... those front controls - I reckon you could get the shipping forcast if you tried. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

faustnik
08-23-2006, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cdn.401GATOR:
The Microsoft FFB2 had optical feedback and programmable return to center tension 10 years ago... It's a disgrace that these Saitek guys are still producing garbage and everybody thinks its great.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand why something similar to the MSFFB2 hasn't been produced?

Divine-Wind
08-23-2006, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cdn.401GATOR:
In today's day and age where even a cheap 5 dollar mouse uses optical feedback these guys are still using potentiometers??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doesn't CH use pots in their sticks?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I don't understand why something similar to the MSFFB2 hasn't been produced? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because M$ produced it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

J/k, the FFB2 was an awesome stick. Mine's lasted for 6-7 years, now. Talk about quality. They just don't make sticks like they used to...

Tricky49
09-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Anyone still worrying about potentiometers is basing their opinions on 6 year old technology. Since all the major sticks these days use digital processors inside them, the old innaccuracies with analogue pots are long gone. Thrustmaster and CH still use them in their products too, ya muppet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

The Microsoft FFB2 uses optical sensors because it has to - pots aren't a sensible option with all the motor components in the stick's case.

It wasn't around 10 years ago either. The original MS FF stick wasn't released until the end of '97 (to coincide with FS98). As I remember, the FFB2 didn't appear until 1990 or thereabouts at the earliest.

I think the Aviator looks like a good little piece of kit myself. The throttles being mounted on the front was never an issue for me on other sticks I've used (notably my old faithful Saitek Cyborg, which finally bit the bullet after 6 years of faithful service). If you're a HOTAS user then of course it's not going to interest you, but for those of us who don't get on with HOTAS systems, it looks like a nice little stick.

Oh and one of the Saitek guys confirmed on SimHQ the other day that the stick will have a removable handrest.

I'm going to hold out for some reviews or at least wait and see if I can try one out in a store somewhere, but it's a definite contender for a new stick when I get FSX.

Tricky49
09-05-2006, 09:41 AM
Uh... change "1990" to "2000". Got my decades mixed up a bit there.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PraetorHonoris
09-05-2006, 10:10 AM
The price will be $39.95, which is ok for a quality stick without separate throttle control. The lack of the latter is pretty astonishing as it is intended for flight-sim enthusiasts.

The design is World War II-inspired, as officially stated. That is why ergonomics are off the beaten tracks. I actually like that approach very much, but without seperate throttle... no, this retro-design is not that good. Well, maybe I'll give it a try.

TC_Stele
09-05-2006, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
The price will be $39.95, which is ok for a quality stick without separate throttle control. The lack of the latter is pretty astonishing as it is intended for flight-sim enthusiasts.

The design is World War II-inspired, as officially stated. That is why ergonomics are off the beaten tracks. I actually like that approach very much, but without seperate throttle... no, this retro-design is not that good. Well, maybe I'll give it a try. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they really wanted to go with a WW2 inspired stick all the way, they should have made it a HOTAS setup with at least a WW2 throttle design. I like the way the stick looks, but I'd have to get a feel for it at the store.

p1ngu666
09-05-2006, 01:26 PM
god knows why they stopped making this

http://www.pcextremist.com/reviews/hardware/peripherals/cyborg3dgoldusb/

there best stick for the lower price range, or lefties, like me.

just need to merge that old stick, with this new one...

maybe add two low profile roller style things for flaps/something else http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

throttle at the front is nice for if u hold thestick in your lap, like i do...

Warrington_Wolf
09-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Gah,damn that thing is ugly. It reminds me of my CH combat stick after it has been chewed up by my dog. I like the idea of the switches and what looks like a fuel toggle switch, but the throttle is just cack.
I reckon that some of the homemade designs that I have seen on this forum are miles better.
What would really be cool is a CH combat stick with FFB. Now that is something I would love to see.

Spinnetti
09-05-2006, 06:31 PM
I like it, but the throttle position sux, and worse, the stick tension is just like my X45 which sticks horribly (difficult to be smooth with it). Also, I've broken the trigger on 2 x45's so far - I hope this one is stronger.. (anybody need a spare new x45 throttle?)

Spinnetti
09-05-2006, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
god knows why they stopped making this

http://www.pcextremist.com/reviews/hardware/peripherals/cyborg3dgoldusb/

there best stick for the lower price range, or lefties, like me.

just need to merge that old stick, with this new one...

maybe add two low profile roller style things for flaps/something else http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

throttle at the front is nice for if u hold thestick in your lap, like i do... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgot about that one.. Yeah, that was pretty good, and the off 90 degree of the stick made for a more natural holding position...

p1ngu666
09-05-2006, 06:44 PM
thinking about it, the new stick would be good with ruddle peddles, for twist no support is the sux.

DEY_RAVEN_UK
09-06-2006, 02:11 AM
ooooooo i like.
I currently use the saitek cyborge 3d gold with the hand rest removed and the handle is similar to the one in the pic. I like the look of the stick and looks like it will be my next purchase.
I have tried many different sticks and i always go back to the saitek http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tricky49
09-06-2006, 02:21 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You managed to break the trigger on an X45? Jeez, have you got the grip of a gorilla or something?

As for your sticking X45, have you tried applying some silicone grease to the underside of the centering cone? Seems to be the recommended way of fixing this and it sorts everything right out apparently.

BiscuitKnight
09-06-2006, 02:47 AM
Am I the only Logitech user?

I had my Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D Pro for many years, I gave it away last month to someone and replaced it a month before that with an Extreme 3D Pro. I got rid of my old stick because the throttle was always flickering between settings and the rudder was shot to pieces. It lost no tension in any of the parts, no squeaky or dead buttons. Anyone who didn't need fine rudder or throttle control could still make good use of it: the new user has (apparently replaced his mouse!)

I've used other types of sticks a little, notably a few MS sticks. At least two MS sticks I had the displeasure of using were so flaccid it required that you hold the stick to centre it.

I'm loving my new stick, my only complaint would be that the throttle needs to have more range to provide more precision. I would also recommend more and slightly smaller buttons for the base: very well laid out, six buttons on the base and the throttle, having ten would allow me to cover all the CEM functions (pitch, mix, supercharger, radiator, engines left and right toggle, dive brakes = 10 buttons) then six on the stick is Primary Fire (MG), Secondary Fire (Cannon), Rockets, Bombs, flaps. Pretty much anything I'm likely to use all on the stick.

But, on topic: that stick looks fugly, and the lack of buttons makes me want to hurl. Throttles: bad positioning, unless, of course, you're putting it in your lap. I've always put the stick where my mouse is.

Tricky49
09-07-2006, 02:35 AM
Logitech sticks = horribly misshapen lumps of plastic. Plus they just feel wrong in so many other ways - rubbish throttles, horrible button response. Logitech's &lt;i&gt;mice&lt;/i&gt; on the other hand... well they're great. The only ones that I've seen coming up that looks like they can compete are either Microsoft's new HABU mouse that they're making with Razer, or Saitek's new GM3200 which felt pretty good when I saw it at E3.

Anyway, I still think those of you *****ing about the throttles are utterly wrong. Like I said, my old Cyborg had throttles in a very similar position and I've never had trouble reaching them (and no, I don't hold the stick in my lap). Oh and Biscuitknight? You see that red knob on the Aviator? That's a mode switch which will enable me to program different commands to every button position on the aviator depending on which mode I'm in. So that's a total of 36 different commands I'll be able to have on the stick.

BiscuitKnight
09-07-2006, 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tricky49:
Logitech sticks = horribly misshapen lumps of plastic. Plus they just feel wrong in so many other ways - rubbish throttles, horrible button response. Logitech's mice on the other hand... well they're great. The only ones that I've seen coming up that looks like they can compete are either Microsoft's new HABU mouse that they're making with Razer, or Saitek's new GM3200 which felt pretty good when I saw it at E3.

Anyway, I still think those of you *****ing about the throttles are utterly wrong. Like I said, my old Cyborg had throttles in a very similar position and I've never had trouble reaching them (and no, I don't hold the stick in my lap). Oh and Biscuitknight? You see that red knob on the Aviator? That's a mode switch which will enable me to program different commands to every button position on the aviator depending on which mode I'm in. So that's a total of 36 different commands I'll be able to have on the stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you're really sounding like you've used a logitech stick there, matey. Slow response? What, can you count in milliseconds now?

Then you say the Logitech throttles suck, and praise the travesty that is the aviator. Right, so place them at the front, so you'll be blindly fumbling with the wrong one and stuffing about flinging one hand between the buttons and the throttles.

I'll just mention that the Aviator also looks like a half dismantled Sybian, at this point, then move on.

Misshapen lumps of plastic? Hmm. We'll, mine's rather comfortable, and I can't see any of the components left uncovered. Now let's look at the aviator: a spring is exposed at the bottom of the stick. And why a spring? Christ, nintendo 64 controller anyone? It'll lose tension in a few months.

36 commands? I can't see the maths in that. Assuming the mode selector makes every button have a secondary function, I get:

Trigger - 2 (2)
Stick top buttons - 2 each x 4 (10)
Hat switch - 16 (26)
Toggles - 8(?) (34)

Moreover, that's highly theoretical. If you're in combat, you change speed, then you've got to change the mode, click a button, switch modes back before you can fire. What a frigging waste.

And the toggle switches. In Il-2 at least, I can't see much use. Can you help me out with that?

If we count only one mode for combat, because switching isn't practical, you get a grand total of 17 functions. Take 8 for POV, one is trigger (linked MG and Cannon), rockets, bombs, you get a grand total of SIX spare to program all your CEM, or RADAR, FLIR, etc for other sims. Wow! Great design!

Compare that to my joystick:

Total functions:

One trigger
One side mounted secondary fire (comfy for thumb)
Four stick top
Eight way POV switch
Six base

Total functions: 20. I get three more functions without having to stuff around with a selector.

And then to ergonomics: the trigger looks like it'll cut into your finger after 3 seconds, the stick top switches are laid out so you have to change your hand position to hit the middle one, bad in combat. The frontal throttles combined with rear switches means Mr Left Hand is going beserk.

Now, I didn't bash the Saitek stick, I gave some fairly qualified statements. I didn't tell everyone to ditch their sticks and buy Logitechs: I'm told that the X-52 whale on everything. Fine, I'll stick with my Logitech, and we'll leave it at that. Therefore, there was absolutely no reason for you to come in here and make unqualified statements attacking my joystick and me like I'd kicked your dog and scratched your car, hmm?

WOLFMondo
09-07-2006, 05:16 AM
No hand rest. No sale.

Divine-Wind
09-07-2006, 09:37 AM
Actually, Biscuit, mode switching is a big plus. At first it seems like a complicated waste of time, but with it, you can have lots of functions you'd never get with just one mode.

Tricky49
09-07-2006, 10:09 AM
Oh, I'd say you gave it a bit of a bashing, definitely. You were expressing an opinion and I was expressing mine - kind of generally what forums are for, yes?

To confirm the number on the buttons, the Aviator's got 12 buttons by the looks of it - 8 on the toggles (they're self-centering so you've got 2 buttons per toggle) and four on the head (including the trigger). The mode switch apparently has 3 positions so 12 x 3 = 36.

As for switching modes in mid combat, well no, that's not what you'd do. You'd set up the different modes with different sets of functions, keeping ones that you'd use in a particular situation on the same mode.

The spring isn't a worry either:

a) because Saitek have been using that centering design on their sticks for years, with no issues

b) because what do you think Logitech use in their sticks? Rubber bands?

As for the "left hand going mad" thing, I can't say that I found myself adjusting the throttle and pressing controls on the base of my old Cyborg stick as much as you seem to suggest. Different flying styles though I guess http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

@WOLFMondo - there is a handrest. I mentioned this on the first page of the thread - someone from Saitek has confirmed that there will be one.

TC_Stele
09-07-2006, 12:08 PM
Well, I'll tell you what I'd do if it's possible with the stick. As most of the cockpit builders are modifying some of their sticks, I would keep the stick and make a seperate panel for the toggle switches near my left hand, near the X-52 throttle I have.

Or I could just stick to my X-52 stick if that's what you're thinking, but personally I like the Aviator's stick design from what I'm seeing because it is simple and has that WW2 stick look to it. The X-52 stick is still too big for my hand, and sometimes I feel like I'm struggling to reach a button.

Abbuzze
09-07-2006, 01:16 PM
The throttel in the front ist a good solution, the Cyborg 3D Gold had it too. This was good because if you have one Hand at the keyboard, the way to the throttle is very shor,t if the stick is in front of the board.

The X52 is to modern and a stick which whant to be close to an original flightstick is unergonomic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think Saitek did a good design job!

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/Me109black6%20cockpit.jpg

Cdn.401GATOR
09-07-2006, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tricky49:
Anyone still worrying about potentiometers is basing their opinions on 6 year old technology. Since all the major sticks these days use digital processors inside them, the old innaccuracies with analogue pots are long gone. Thrustmaster and CH still use them in their products too, ya muppet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the "muppet" comment Tricky...

This "muppet" is an EE who happens to design hardware controllers for pan and tilt positioning systems if truth be known..

I work daily with Potentiometers, ADC, and microcontrollers to try and achieve the most precision possible with very expensive pan and tilt motors using potentiometers as the positioning feedback.

I receive all the trade industry magazines.. I have not heard of these new advances in potentiometers you mention have occurred in the last 6 years.

p1ngu666
09-07-2006, 03:17 PM
well my old joysticks, including a CH yoke got the jitters, my saitek *Maybe* now getting jittery around the deadzone, but its had alot of use..

BiscuitKnight
09-08-2006, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tricky49:
Oh, I'd say you gave it a bit of a bashing, definitely. You were expressing an opinion and I was expressing mine - kind of generally what forums are for, yes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go look up the definition of opinion. You seem to have it confused with insulting.

I noticed no one here uses Logitech sticks, and in my closing words pointed out what I didn't like about the aviator. You then came along and bashed Logitech sticks and praised this travesty.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To confirm the number on the buttons, the Aviator's got 12 buttons by the looks of it - 8 on the toggles (they're self-centering so you've got 2 buttons per toggle) and four on the head (including the trigger). The mode switch apparently has 3 positions so 12 x 3 = 36.

As for switching modes in mid combat, well no, that's not what you'd do. You'd set up the different modes with different sets of functions, keeping ones that you'd use in a particular situation on the same mode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, about that: it's three buttons on top, trigger, and the four toggles. If the toggles are self centering then they'd be okay for +/- functions like pitch and mixture but how many +/- functions are you using? I can think of pitch and mixture only. Other games might have more use for them, sure, but then ergonomics again, which I'll cover later.

So we have effectively a 12 button joystick. Okay, fine it's on par with my stick for buttons, good. But 36 functions? Nope. You get 12 functions, then you can switch to bring up more, but what use is that? I'd only be good for switching between say medium/heavy bombers to fighters and divers: one setting changes the layout so dropping bombs is trigger, another for fighters where it's trigger for MGs, and so forth with relevant settings. Guess what? I could already do that! You see, Logitech gives me this nice little program called profiler (and I'm guessing practically every other stick has one or there are third parties) that allows me to configure buttons outside of the game, and I can switch between profiles! And I'm not limited to three settings. And is it three? I see the strange lettering of "Off, A, B". Nice thinking, why not A, B, C if it's three settings? So effectively, Saitek's assininely named Av8r (aren't you the insulted that Saitek thinks you're so dumb you'd be more likely to buy a stick named "Av8r" over "Aviator"?) has reinvented the wheel, and made it less effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The spring isn't a worry either:

a) because Saitek have been using that centering design on their sticks for years, with no issues

b) because what do you think Logitech use in their sticks? Rubber bands? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I took a look at mine. Looked like a big thick rubber cord. Maybe I'm wrong. All the same, why put it outside? It's asking to catch on things and it looks fugly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for the "left hand going mad" thing, I can't say that I found myself adjusting the throttle and pressing controls on the base of my old Cyborg stick as much as you seem to suggest. Different flying styles though I guess http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then here's ergonomics again. You said you rarely had need to touch the base buttons. Well see I play with complex engine management, so I need to change engine settings in combat with a fair few planes. I could do it with my keyboard, but then i'd be flicking between the keyboard and throttles. I'll stick with my pretty much HOTAS setup over the Av8r's Hands on throttle, rear of base, keyboard and stick setup. Hell, let's call it HOTROBASS.

And again: trigger looks like it'd cut into your finger, you have to curl the thumb to hit some of the buttons, and having the POV where it is will lead to a lot of annoying hits on that button beneath it unintentionally. Then the spread out toggles. Why not mount them together on one side, closely, and have another four buttons next to them? I could almost forgive the Av8r then. It'd still look like a sybian though, with a strange right hand cable feed.

Abbuzze
09-08-2006, 09:51 AM
I wonder about the complaints about the potentiometers in Saitek sticks. Which of them still use potentiometers?

First generation used optical Hall senors, after the problems at the beginning, they changed the sensor unit to a magnetic layout.

Jetbuff
09-08-2006, 12:06 PM
Biscuitknight and Tricky, please see here http://www.simhq.com/_all/all_024a.html for reasons why your exchange deteriorated. Cheers...

Cdn.401GATOR
09-08-2006, 03:50 PM
Hi Abuzze,

Just want to correct something..

Hall sensors are magnetic.

I think you meant to say an optical encoder with an output that resembles the Hall sensor feedback..

That would be a welcome advance over potentiometers which are known to wear out..

You'd think if they could figure out the optical encoder bit that they'd figure out a way to produce force feedback and\ (or at least) programmable return to center tension.

Are you sure on the optical encoder stuff for Saitek?

Sokol__1
09-10-2006, 10:38 AM
Mmm,

In this position, the throttle in front seems appropriate:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4056/av8r2rp6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....c;f=144;t=005903;p=3 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=005903;p=3)

Under test by Jason/GoGamer.

Sokol1

flakwagen
09-10-2006, 11:06 AM
That may be the dumbest stick design I've seen in five years. Very few people use controls on the base because most of us have normal computer setups- we don't have handmade mock cockpits or custom built platforms that swing out from under our computer desks. The stick sits to the side of the keyboard like all the other devices. Putting the stick in front of the keyboard just makes using the keyboard a pain in the arse.

Those two little levers in front of the stick are particularly useless. Even if office chairs with joystick platforms in the seat somehow became common, it would be rather awkward to access them in the middle of a dogfight- or any gaming situation.

But Saitek is hardly alone. Most stick designs are strictly for looks. They're dolled up as weapons so the teenage Quake addict types will buy them. Few sticks are truly utilitarian.

T_O_A_D
09-10-2006, 01:46 PM
Nice features just poorly placed.

I see alot of modders potential though.

OldMan____
09-11-2006, 04:13 AM
Damm I really can't udnerstand how people have such different perspective than me.


first. I give **** to the design look, specially if it looks modern or WW2 like. Its something I am going to use, so ergonomics is firts place.. Someone that thinks a stick must look like ww2 stuff should play inside a box at 50 celcius degrees with almost no air exchange and mixed with smoke

Second. I hate hand rest. They hurt my hand. this comes along with previus statement and with..

I cannot understand how people say X45 and X52 are too big. I think they are too small I hardly can fit my hand on it without having my fingers compressed between hand rest and upper end of stick.

stanford-ukded
09-11-2006, 05:39 AM
You got some manly hands, OldMan!

RAH!

TC_Stele
11-21-2006, 02:09 AM
Bringing up an old topic, but do we have anyone who is using this stick either by itself or with a separate throttle?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

=====================
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9899/il2siggx3.gif

Sokol__1
11-21-2006, 03:40 PM
TC_Stele

Look at this tread in SimHQ:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=144;t=006869 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=006869)

Some user opine about AV8R, and have a link for "test-drive" made by russians.

S!

Sokol1

Chuck_Older
11-21-2006, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bandit.426Cdn:
It needs more work, it's ergonomically a disaster. Throttles in front, around the front of the joystick itself? I look at those front toggle switches, and think to myself, that those will last as long as the first drop to terra-firma. I'll keep the X52 setup, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ergonimcally a disaster- just like a lot of the WWII plane's grips http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't knock the throttles until you try them. They obvious spend time on ergonomics, just like everybody else does by 2006 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You're not supposed to be playing catch with the stick, you're supposed to use it to fly

I want it. No hand rest? Meh. Who cares? It will be a nice addition to my X-45 throttle I think. The throttles will end up being flaps and maybe prop pitch? I dunno. I'll figure something out

BloodyBucket
04-16-2007, 11:07 PM
I just got one as a gift.

"No hand rest. No sale."

There is a handrest, but it comes as a clamp on option in the box.

So far so good. I think it is aimed at hackers like me, and not at converting the enthusiast who already has a $100+ set up.

I would like the throttles in front, and I could do without the safety cover. A few seconds with a hex key will fix the latter issue.

Don't know what I will use all the toggles for. Might try a two stick set up, and use the old cyborg gold for a trim stick.

The price was right!

Pollack2006
04-17-2007, 02:45 AM
I've got one. It's fine ergonomically and the action is smooth, but the worst thing about it is the surface finish on the grip. It's like glass. Within 5 minutes your hand gets sweaty and you have to grip the thing like a vise to control the rudder. So unless you want to spend most of your flying time drying your hands and/or the stick i'd hold of buying one at least until Saitek apply a grippier finish to it.

Husky23
04-17-2007, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sokol__1:
Mmm,

In this position, the throttle in front seems appropriate:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4056/av8r2rp6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....c;f=144;t=005903;p=3 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=005903;p=3)

Under test by Jason/GoGamer.

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sokol1...

I got the same stick.

Curious...did you set it up through the Saitek's profiler software or direct through ILS hardware set up?

Would like to see how you set up your buttons and functions

JR_Greenhorn
04-17-2007, 12:40 PM
I've had one of these for 4 months now. It's a cheap stick for folks that don't want to spend much money on a stick (like me).

I like the idea of those 2-way, 2-mode "toggle switches," but they are very chintzy. Be aware of that fact if you're thinking of getting one of these for its parts. The quality of rest of the stick is as expected for its price (and it's too light overall), except for the throttle sliders. They are very smooth with just the right amount of resistance, and I have no problem reaching them. However, they don't seem to have the best resolution (I don't think you could hit every number from 1-110% in game), and sometimes they "float" between a couple percentage points in Il-2. Additionally, the main trigger is painfully uncomfortable; it's a long, awkward reach from the stick, and I have very large hands. I've remapped triggers so I can use one of the top buttons as my primary trigger, but even that gets uncomfortable after a while. The top of stick should be tipped back a bit, so it's not so much of an "around the edge and over the top" reach for the thumb.


I bought an AV8R to replace the $9 stick I had prior, which had a gameport connection (I needed USB for my new PC) and no throttle or rudder twist. The AV8R was perfect for me, because it has a USB connection, rudder twist, throttle and prop pitch axes, and more buttons/switches than I've bothered to assign yet--all for $35 (@newegg.com).

As others have confirmed, it does come with a bolt-on hand rest, which I haven't used. I actually like the smooth handle; I can slide my hand down it when I don't need to use the triggers, and push down on the various switches with the bottom of my hand. For instance, I can reach my brakes, gear, and flaps switches with my right hand without taking that hand off the stick or my left hand off the keyboard or mouse.

Hawgdog
07-14-2007, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
god knows why they stopped making this

http://www.pcextremist.com/reviews/hardware/peripherals/cyborg3dgoldusb/

there best stick for the lower price range, or lefties, like me.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, I have owned four so far. And I'm on my last NIB one now.
Ebay was a good source for a while, and after they dropped them I kept an eye on the auctions.
But the pot do wear out.
Great stick, best ever in my opinion, and I've owned all the way up to CH stuff.
maybe buy an AV8Tor as its called elsewhere.
who knows...

Platypus_1.JaVA
07-14-2007, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tricky49:
Anyone still worrying about potentiometers is basing their opinions on 6 year old technology. Since all the major sticks these days use digital processors inside them, the old innaccuracies with analogue pots are long gone. Thrustmaster and CH still use them in their products too, ya muppet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong! Be Sure!! View this thread of mine on the saitek site. http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?t=11686

Be sure to log-in to see the pics. I have an X-52 pro with a faulty pot-meter in the throttle, very irritating. Some contact spray and re-soldering the wires did the trick.

Platypus_1.JaVA
07-14-2007, 01:14 PM
Ow, about the aviator.. They had a demonstration model in a local store. The stick feels very cheap. Everything is plastic and not the best quality either. I stick (funny http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) with mine X-52 Pro.

Chivas
07-14-2007, 01:44 PM
The Aviator is a very good joystick. Its more precise than my X52, and smoother than my CH Fighterstick. I use the Aviator as a backup to my MSFF2. I managed to pickup a brand new MSFF2 on Ebay. It was expensive but worth every penny. Anyone looking for a precise, smooth, inexpensive joystick, the Aviator is a great choice.

p0wderfinger
07-15-2007, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tricky49:
Logitech sticks = horribly misshapen lumps of plastic. Plus they just feel wrong in so many other ways - rubbish throttles, horrible button response. Logitech's mice on the other hand... well they're great. The only ones that I've seen coming up that looks like they can compete are either Microsoft's new HABU mouse that they're making with Razer, or Saitek's new GM3200 which felt pretty good when I saw it at E3.

Anyway, I still think those of you *****ing about the throttles are utterly wrong. Like I said, my old Cyborg had throttles in a very similar position and I've never had trouble reaching them (and no, I don't hold the stick in my lap). Oh and Biscuitknight? You see that red knob on the Aviator? That's a mode switch which will enable me to program different commands to every button position on the aviator depending on which mode I'm in. So that's a total of 36 different commands I'll be able to have on the stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you're really sounding like you've used a logitech stick there, matey. Slow response? What, can you count in milliseconds now?

Then you say the Logitech throttles suck, and praise the travesty that is the aviator. Right, so place them at the front, so you'll be blindly fumbling with the wrong one and stuffing about flinging one hand between the buttons and the throttles.

I'll just mention that the Aviator also looks like a half dismantled Sybian, at this point, then move on.

Misshapen lumps of plastic? Hmm. We'll, mine's rather comfortable, and I can't see any of the components left uncovered. Now let's look at the aviator: a spring is exposed at the bottom of the stick. And why a spring? Christ, nintendo 64 controller anyone? It'll lose tension in a few months.

36 commands? I can't see the maths in that. Assuming the mode selector makes every button have a secondary function, I get:

Trigger - 2 (2)
Stick top buttons - 2 each x 4 (10)
Hat switch - 16 (26)
Toggles - 8(?) (34)

Moreover, that's highly theoretical. If you're in combat, you change speed, then you've got to change the mode, click a button, switch modes back before you can fire. What a frigging waste.

And the toggle switches. In Il-2 at least, I can't see much use. Can you help me out with that?

If we count only one mode for combat, because switching isn't practical, you get a grand total of 17 functions. Take 8 for POV, one is trigger (linked MG and Cannon), rockets, bombs, you get a grand total of SIX spare to program all your CEM, or RADAR, FLIR, etc for other sims. Wow! Great design!

Compare that to my joystick:

Total functions:

One trigger
One side mounted secondary fire (comfy for thumb)
Four stick top
Eight way POV switch
Six base

Total functions: 20. I get three more functions without having to stuff around with a selector.

And then to ergonomics: the trigger looks like it'll cut into your finger after 3 seconds, the stick top switches are laid out so you have to change your hand position to hit the middle one, bad in combat. The frontal throttles combined with rear switches means Mr Left Hand is going beserk.

Now, I didn't bash the Saitek stick, I gave some fairly qualified statements. I didn't tell everyone to ditch their sticks and buy Logitechs: I'm told that the X-52 whale on everything. Fine, I'll stick with my Logitech, and we'll leave it at that. Therefore, there was absolutely no reason for you to come in here and make unqualified statements attacking my joystick and me like I'd kicked your dog and scratched your car, hmm? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In my short lifetime, I've owned a Logitech Wingman, Logitech Force Feedback 3d Pro, Saitek Cybord 3d Gold USB, Saitek 35T/36F HOTAS and a Suncom SFS Split-Throttle HOTAS. Out of all these controllers, the one that had the best stick centering was the Cyborg, which incorporated Saitek's unique centering spring that's also on the Aviator. The worst stick I've used is hands down the Logitech FFB which had absolutely no centering force within TEN percent of any axis direction. Absolute piece of trash. The Saitek centering spring is absolute genius because it eliminates the deadzones felt when moving between axis quadrants, and also provides consistent centering force throughout. In games where I'm not able to combine the Cyborg with another controller for throttle, I choose the Cyborg over either of my HOTAS setups. That alone speaks for how good it is.

Hawgdog
07-18-2007, 05:20 AM
IF you get the stick, do NOT use the drivers software in the CD, go to the website and use their beta drivers and beta software package.
Much better-

dawg ute

wayno7777
07-18-2007, 08:19 AM
I have one and the main trigger stopped working. I now use it as a second controller. I use the throttles and buttons. It is way too light. Slides all over the place. I wrapped foam around it and put a hand rest from a Cyborg on it. Much more comfortable....

hejbrigade
07-18-2007, 01:40 PM
Now my story. I had many joysticks my first was Thrustmaster TopGun Fox1 the first one made in TopGun line then I bought newer TopGun Fox2.
And after 8 years of heavy abuse of FOX2 it was time to buy new I didnt know much about newer desings and functions.
One day I saw Saitek Cyborg and purchased it for small cash I got what I payed, after 3 days of use I was disapointed the stick was to light when I was performing manuvers and had problems with centering in twist desing, so much for new joysticks I said to my self, and then I started to look for "newer" I mean better Saitek the X52
and decison was made I bought Saitek X52 and got stuned about how good is to have gas rudder.(yea I know where did I lived all this time with FOX2) So after 11 months of use of my X52 im very happy with it, no problems just some software thats all,
I say buy what sits you best in your hand and gives you a fell that you could do some funky moves and shootdowns in IL2.
(crappy english I know I know) lol

fabianfred
07-19-2007, 05:02 AM
well..I bought this stick from an ebay dealer a couple of weeks ago...after going through three Logitechs which were all great until they stopped

I just started on-line too after being off-line since the il2 first came out...

I don't know why people seem to find a problem with the throttle positions!! With all my sticks I sit in a comfortable chair without armrests and rest the stick in my lap...the stick therefore is in a similar position to the real ones...between my legs.... and in this way the throttles are within easy reach and my left hand falls naturally there on the left throttle control.... the right one I use for flaps
I can see that if I were to put the stick on the desk in front of me or beside the keyboard it would be awkward....not having any suckers to help anchor it and with a much lighter base than the logitechs had....but as I said I've always found it comfortable in my lap....I can reach forward and use the keyboard which is on a sliding computer desk drawer right in front of me..

the trigger is fine for me...I don't have particularly large hands.... and I use the button with a cover for rockets (3).... cannons (2) use the button below the hat switch and the right hand button is for bombs....I've never had any problems with accidently releasing bombs or rockets with this set-up

the switches on the base I have only set-up a few...the left-hand one for zoom or wide view.... next one for padlock enemy or ground... next is toggle icons... and last is on-line chat

I like it.............so far


and I like on-line co-ops too...join me in Hyperlobby

Cromelex
07-20-2007, 01:08 PM
I need a new stick (mine is a Microsoft Sidewinder 3d pro - 10 or 11 years old - and I can't connect it to my new computer)and I don't have much € to spend (spent it all on the computer :| )

I saw this joystick at 39€.

Also, I saw a Saitek Cyborg Evo (32€, 32.9€ the Wireless version).


I wonder which would be the best ?

3.JG51_BigBear
07-20-2007, 01:13 PM
I would go with the Aviator. Its not as robust in construction as the EVO but its more precise in my opinion and I think its styling is much nicer, especially for a WW2 flight sim.

Cromelex
07-20-2007, 01:23 PM
Can I use the 2nd throttle thingy as prop pitch or trim thingy when flying 1 engine planes ? (Sorry about the "thingys", but has been a while since I last played http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
07-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Sure can, I use it as elevator trim myself.

Cromelex
08-07-2007, 05:24 AM
I'm waiting for my new Saitek Aviator, and should have it in a couple of days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I hope that "days" doesn't turn into weeks (it's quite hard to get one of these in Portugal, with an appropriate price :| )

Hawgdog
08-07-2007, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
I would go with the Aviator. Its not as robust in construction as the EVO but its more precise in my opinion and I think its styling is much nicer, especially for a WW2 flight sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Having owned both, and now having taken both apart, they are very similar internally. As far as construction, the aviator is heavier than the Evo, the EVO is just too light-
It would be nice if you could adjust the spring tension to compensate for a light base.
At one point I filled the cavity in the bottom of the EVO with #6 lead shot and expoy. Helped, but didn't fix.

hejbrigade
08-07-2007, 07:22 AM
Just a bit off topic...
I would like to know if you can use Saitek cyborg EVO and use it for building pedals, twist part?
Has anyone tried yet?
I have one spare and would like to build my own pedals.

Cromelex
08-20-2007, 07:05 AM
Can anyone please tell me how to set the pitch to the 2nd trothle ?

Superluminal_8
08-20-2007, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cromelex:
Can anyone please tell me how to set the pitch to the 2nd trothle ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got to controls in Il2,scroll down to HOTAS controls at the bottom and just click on the elevetor trim or whatever you like for it and move the second throttle to stick it.

Cromelex
08-20-2007, 07:25 AM
Thank you ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif