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Bearcat99
06-20-2007, 10:08 AM
Japan Changes Name of Iwo Jima
By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press Writer

1 hour ago

U.S. Marines of the 28th Regiment, 5th Division, raise ...

TOKYO - Japan has changed the name of the Pacific island of Iwo Jima, site of the famous World War II battle, to its original name of Iwo To after residents there were prodded into action by two recent Clint Eastwood movies.

The new name in Japanese looks and means the same as Iwo Jima _ or Sulfur Island _ but sounds different, the Japanese Geographical Survey Institute said.

The institute announced the name change Monday after discussing the issue with Japan's coast guard. An official map with the new name will be released Sept. 1.

Iwo Jima was the site of the World War II battle immortalized by the famous photograph by Joe Rosenthal of The Associated Press of U.S. Marines raising the American flag on the islet's Mount Suribachi.

Before the war, however, the volcanic island was known as Iwo To by the 1,000 or so civilians who lived there.

They were evacuated in 1944 as U.S. forces advanced across the Pacific. Some Japanese navy officers who moved in to fortify the island mistakenly called it Iwo Jima, and the name stuck. After the war, civilians weren't allowed to return and the island was put to exclusive military use by both the U.S. and Japan, cementing its identity.

Never satisfied that the name Iwo Jima took root, locals took action in March after the release of Eastwood's two films "Letters from Iwo Jima" and "Flags of Our Fathers" spotlighted the misnomer.

"Though we're happy for Iwo To, which has been forgotten by history, the islanders are extremely grieved every time they hear Iwo To referred to as Iwo Jima," the local Ogasawara newspaper reported at the time.

Ogasawara, the municipality that administers Iwo To and neighboring islands, responded by adopting a resolution making Iwo To the official reading. Residents and descendants of Iwo To evacuees petitioned the central government to follow suit.

"These people are now scattered nationwide and are not able to go back to Iwo To," said the survey institute's Mitsugu Aizawa. "These people have said that the place is originally called Iwo To and their claim lead to this revision."

Today the only inhabitants are about 400 Japanese soldiers.

The 1945 battle for Iwo Jima pitted some 100,000 U.S. troops against 22,000 Japanese deeply dug into a labyrinth of tunnels and trenches. Nearly 7,000 Americans were killed capturing the island, and fewer than 1,000 of the Japanese would survive.

The Americans occupied the island after the war, and returned it to Japanese jurisdiction in 1968. The U.S. Navy still uses an Iwo To airstrip to train pilots who operate from aircraft carriers.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2007, 10:17 AM
They can call it a Ham Sandwich

Don't mean a thing

TC_Stele
06-20-2007, 10:20 AM
This reminds me of when Los Angeles wanted to change South Central to just South Los Angeles. Its still called South Central.

ploughman
06-20-2007, 10:20 AM
It's their island, they can call it what they want.

leitmotiv
06-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Seems innocent enough.

Bearcat99
06-20-2007, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
It's their island, they can call it what they want.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

FlatSpinMan
06-20-2007, 10:24 AM
I think the Japanese government/nation should take responsibilty for what they did in WW2 but in this case I don't think it's particularly sinister.They're only revising it because it was incorrectly named in the first place, if the article posted above is correct.

The kanji for island can be be pronounced "jima/shima" or "to - usually romanised as "tou"". Generally "jima/shima" is the most common but not necessarily. That's the thing about kanji, you may be able to recognise the characters and/or meaning but not be able to pronounce it correctly.

Divine-Wind
06-20-2007, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
It's their island, they can call it what they want.
Exactly. The island was mislabeled, they're fixing that.

SeaFireLIV
06-20-2007, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
How do you deny the largest defeat your country ever faced?

Deny the place of the battle exists.

Blatant Japanese revisionism.

I don`t see how changing the name of a place will suddenly make history forget the events that took place there. Many places have changed their names and are well remembered today.

neural_dream
06-20-2007, 10:55 AM
Istanbul is still Constantinople.

JG52Uther
06-20-2007, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
It's their island, they can call it what they want.
Exactly.

WOLFMondo
06-20-2007, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
How do you deny the largest defeat your country ever faced?

Deny the place of the battle exists.

Blatant Japanese revisionism.

I think you need a tin foil hat. Yes, its revisionism but its reversing a mistake made by a few officers who couldn't read a map correctly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HellToupee
06-20-2007, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
How do you deny the largest defeat your country ever faced?

Deny the place of the battle exists.

Blatant Japanese revisionism.

how is it their largest defeat?

Causing such losses to a force far greater, somewhat a victory considering the times.

J_Anonymous
06-20-2007, 11:31 AM
The island

硫黄島

was always called "I wo to". The first two Chinese characters mean "slufur" ("i") and "yellow" ("wo"). The third Chinese character means "island" and can be pronounced in Japanese either "to" or "jima". The U.S. forces incorrectly read it "jima". When the U.S. returned the island to the Japanese jurisdiction in 1968, the official Japanese maps called the island, correctly, "Iwo to." However, during the revision of official maps in 1982, somebody adopted the wrong pronounciation "jima". It didn't become an issue because everyone in Japan read it correctly as "I wo to" any way, and no civilians were ever allowed to return to the island after 1968. They are just correcting the error made for the 1982 official map, that's all.

Choctaw111
06-20-2007, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
How do you deny the largest defeat your country ever faced?

Deny the place of the battle exists.

Blatant Japanese revisionism.

how is it their largest defeat?

Causing such losses to a force far greater, somewhat a victory considering the times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a victory in a way for the Japanese. They did not win the battle but it was the ONLY battle in which the US Marines took more casualties than the enemy. My grandfather remembers this well.

TC_Stele
06-20-2007, 11:54 AM
As much as I'd preferred they keep it as Iwo Jima, and I know there was plenty of time to just rename it back to Iwo To, the battle will not be forgotten.

We still remember the Battle of Stalingrad; the city is now named Volograd. However, there is strong support to name it back to Stalingrad.

I'm still going to refer to it as Iwo Jima, and books will still refer to it as such as the Battle of Iwo Jima fought on the recently renamed Iwo To.

BaldieJr
06-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Hey lets change the name of The Battle of Britain to The Battle over Water.

tigertalon
06-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by TC_Stele:
We still remember the Battle of Stalingrad; the city is now named Volograd.

Exactly, with most people not even knowing what is its present name. Stalingrad is eternal, as Iwo Jima is.

neural_dream
06-20-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Isnt Japan the only major participant of WW2 to have no mention of Japanese war atrocities in its academic curriculim?
huh? of course
The Angloamerican curriculums don't mention Dresden. Turks don't mention Armenia. I imagine Belgians don't mention Congo either (actually I don't know about that)...

ploughman
06-20-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:

The Angloamerican curriculums don't mention Dresden. ...

My OH did Dresden at school as part of a module thing on Bomber Command, that would've been 15 years ago though. God knows what they teach them nowadays.

MEGILE
06-20-2007, 01:20 PM
I always called it Ello Jimmy.

Screw them I say

zardozid
06-20-2007, 01:56 PM
IMO...the whole argument that Japan is somehow denying their defeat in WW2 and are trying to re-write history is a very misplaced argument. It is practically imposable for anyone in japan to not be aware of what happened during those years, not to mention the extreme abuse of power (and the abuse of human rights) that came about from being a Colonial empire in the modern world... What is the cost of such a thing and when is it payed? Thousands of innocent women, children and old people where killed during the bombing raids over Tokyo,Kobe and the other city's of Japan. OR maybe their lives don't count because the bombing raids where carried out to shorten the war? Their innocent lives where just leverage used to bring the government to their knees, and the fact that they where children and old people doesn't matter. (they where not Americans)

Are some people angry because Japan has done well in the post war world?

It seems that their is an attitude in the world that everyone should pay for the mistakes of their predecessors in perpetuity. Every new generation should feel as guilty as the one before for mistakes that where made by their ancestors...
Little American children should feel guilty for slavery, and the genocide of the first Americans...The British children should feel guilty for all the misery (and abuse of rights) they brought to their Colonial empire...Not to forget what the Spanish did in South America (do they teach children in Spain that their ancestors used to skin people alive for not being Christians?) ...REALLY I would like to know! Are Spanish children tought about the great explorers of South America and the atrocity's they brought with them?

What about the innocent Vietnamese people that where killed during the "police action"(women raped?)...

I know their is a chance some people will not understand what I'm asking but I would like to know?

DuxCorvan
06-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Italians should be ashamed for what Scipio's troops did in Spain in 218 BC. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

About the topic: they are not 'changing the name', they are in fact restoring and correcting it, aren't they? Imagine being a Londoner and having your city being mentioned everywhere as 'Londawn' just because it became popular that way during the BoB.

Besides, Iwo Jima is not yet a toponime: it's a historic event, just like Pharsallus, Lutetia or the Rubicon river. Of course, the geographic places are not called that way any more.


Do they teach children in Spain that their ancestors used to skin people alive for not being Christians?

Only after stopping Aztecs from doing the same thing to their opressed native neighbours for not being Aztecs. Atrocity isn't a monopoly of Western colonization, lad.

Jaste07
06-20-2007, 02:38 PM
Even though it's the correct name, waiting so long afterward to change it just seems pointless.

luftluuver
06-20-2007, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Jaste07:
Even though it's the correct name, waiting so long afterward to change it just seems pointless. I grew up on a street that used the German spelling > Arnheim. It took some ~50 years to have it changed to the Dutch spelling > Arnhem. It is a Dutch city, not a German city.

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-20-2007, 02:50 PM
Then can call it whatever they want but to me and my children it will always be known as Iwo Jima. Japan is good at denying their past. Even if this is not the reason for the name change.

Bearcat99
06-20-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Isnt Japan the only major participant of WW2 to have no mention of Japanese war atrocities in its academic curriculim?
huh? of course
The Angloamerican curriculums don't mention Dresden. Turks don't mention Armenia. I imagine Belgians don't mention Congo either (actually I don't know about that)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you are being facetious because my wife is a HS history teacher... and Dresden is in there.


Even though it's the correct name, waiting so long afterward to change it just seems pointless.

Before the war, however, the volcanic island was known as Iwo To by the 1,000 or so civilians who lived there.

They were evacuated in 1944 as U.S. forces advanced across the Pacific. Some Japanese navy officers who moved in to fortify the island mistakenly called it Iwo Jima, and the name stuck. After the war, civilians weren't allowed to return and the island was put to exclusive military use by both the U.S. and Japan, cementing its identity.

Never satisfied that the name Iwo Jima took root, locals took action in March after the release of Eastwood's two films "Letters from Iwo Jima" and "Flags of Our Fathers" spotlighted the misnomer.

"Though we're happy for Iwo To, which has been forgotten by history, the islanders are extremely grieved every time they hear Iwo To referred to as Iwo Jima," the local Ogasawara newspaper reported at the time.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

J_Anonymous
06-20-2007, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Jaste07:
Even though it's the correct name, waiting so long afterward to change it just seems pointless.

Guys, there is nothing cynical in this Iwojima / Iwoto thing, and I am amused by the strange reaction by some on this board.

They are NOT changing the name, they are just correcting an error in a document produced in 1982.

In Japanese, names of city, mountain, river etc. are all written with Chinese characters. But each Chinese character may be pronounced in several different ways in Japanese language, and it is anybody's guess how to read it unless you know exactly how to pronounce each Chinese character. As such, when maps are created, it is common to show how the name ought to be pronounced by listing small "hiragana" (Japanese, phonetic "alphabets"). In 1982, some idiots in the Geological Survey of Japan made a mistake and put down the hiragana equivalent of "Iwo jima". They are not forcing Americans to rename what is known in English as "the battle of Iwojima" to "battle of Iwo to." By the same token, in Japanese, it has always been called "the battle of iwoto" ("iwoto no tatakai") and they are afraid that by the recent release of the movie with wrong pronounciation, the young generation may get confused.

They just deciced to correct the error and revert it to the correct "Iwo to" in the official Geological Survey map, as it used to be before 1982. As I already said, the island was/is always Iwoto in Japanese and nothing changes in Japan --- except the error in an obscure offical document.

Just to give you some more idea, let's take another example of "Mt. Fuji." In Japanese, the mountain is called "Fuji san" but in the U.S. literature it is often called "Fuji yama", because somebody in the past mis-pronounced a Chinese character "san" as "yama".

F19_Orheim
06-20-2007, 03:12 PM
oh the drama...

they are changing the name for given reasons, no need to read anything else into it...

Divine-Wind
06-20-2007, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Japan is good at denying their past.
Oh?

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Japan is good at denying their past.
Oh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that whole clusterf*ck in Manchuria...

Swivet
06-20-2007, 05:39 PM
Lets call it a "glass parkinglot"

Bearcat99
06-20-2007, 05:45 PM
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

Haigotron
06-20-2007, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Istanbul is still Constantinople.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Viper2005_
06-20-2007, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Hey lets change the name of The Battle of Britain to The Battle over Water.

It's our Battle, and we'll call it what we like. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

zardozid
06-20-2007, 07:06 PM
and now all of a sudden the residence decide to tell the world its Iwo To. Sure would have been nice if they corrected the world right after the war, but they do it right after a movie about the battle on that island?

I don't think anyone would have listened to them, "right after the war". Even now 60 years later (some) people seem to have hard feelings (and suspicions of motive) surrounding the issue. I don't think people would have felt they had the "right" to correct the mistake "right after the war"...

Feathered_IV
06-20-2007, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Italians should be ashamed for what Scipio's troops did in Spain in 218 BC. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


For the sake of fairness, I have resolved to focus my hate of entire nations for the actions of a few, in purely chronological order.

So far I'm up to Egypt. Did you know the Pharaoh Ahmose had the willies cut off 6000 POW's? Thats a lot of willies!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

BSS_Goat
06-20-2007, 07:57 PM
I say we go take it again......

Korolov1986
06-20-2007, 08:04 PM
Regardless of the correct name of the island, it will still be immortalized as Iwo Jima - whether they like it or not.

GreyFox5
06-20-2007, 08:28 PM
The Japanese are very honorable people I would think they had no other motive than to fix a name on a map.

Ya can't move the island http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/GreyFox5/IwoJima.jpg

goshikisen
06-20-2007, 08:37 PM
File this one under "non-issue"

ElAurens
06-20-2007, 08:58 PM
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8097/ohthehumanitylz1.jpg

LEBillfish
06-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Good for them getting the name corrected finally....

As to this thread however.....It never ceases to amaze me how so few people understand now a days what a "Champion" is.....A champion puts forth their best effort, is a gracious loser, yet even more so a gracious winner. Extanding a hand to their enemy to help them up after they have won, not continuing to hammer on them once down and it's over as doing so is the true mark of a pathetic little person so absolutly terrofied they'll be beaten the next time and unable to handle it they do all they can to crush a now non-threat so afraid. More so, they by being a champion inspire deep friendships, or has no one here ever been in a fight?....To hammer away inspires hate and an assured later come back with a vengence...

So to those of you who wish to keep hammering away at a foe that YOU never fought and have no reason to hate except blind bias......Is NOT being a champion the image you wish to project of yourself?

You don't have to believe in karma, it believes in you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

zardozid
06-20-2007, 09:28 PM
FEAR makes nations do stupid things... some times they(nations) do things that they come to regret later on (if they are honest with them selfs) after the dust settles.

Japan was so afraid of becoming a colony (or controlled)by some other Nation that they did some stupid things...

Sadly its not an uncommon thing for a country to do...

I can thing of some country's that still (today) fail to see that they may have made some rash decisions in regards to keeping their nation secure. These mistakes where allowed to happen because of the fact that people where really, really afraid.

enuff of this... (I must be bored) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buzzsaw1939
06-20-2007, 09:51 PM
well ..I was just a kid when it all happened, but I still remember a lot, I'd like to think I have enough wisdom to except change with out forgetting our history, my only thought is, how do you pronounce it, .. toe, two,.. I want to be right when I talk about it, any body know? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Korolov1986
06-20-2007, 10:18 PM
Anyone know if Chi Chi Jima is correct or if it too is Chi Chi To?

AVG_WarHawk
06-20-2007, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
For the sake of fairness, I have resolved to focus my hate of entire nations for the actions of a few, in purely chronological order.

So far I'm up to Egypt. Did you know the Pharaoh Ahmose had the willies cut off 6000 POW's? Thats a lot of willies!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Hhhmmm..... I wonder if willies can be converted to ethanol? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

heywooood
06-20-2007, 10:55 PM
I'm clipping my jima nails as we speak....

so the Emperor of Japan was Hirohitjima?...


ufff - you should see the jimajam I'm seeing...nasty...

I say we change the name of Pearl Harbor to 'Mission Accomplished'....

Badsight-
06-20-2007, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
File this one under "non-issue" hahaha - trust the ubi-ites . "omgwtf - thats wrong!"

as far as the films went . "Letters" slower to me compared to Flags . & the action in Flags included planes . i reccommended Flags of our Fathers to anyone that asked

Ratsack
06-20-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Istanbul is still Constantinople.

And don't tell me, Beijing is still called 'Pekin' in your neck of the woods, what? More porter over here, porter! Need something to wash down this Bombay Beef! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

Gumtree
06-21-2007, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Haigotron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
Istanbul is still Constantinople.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it is still Byzantium as far as I am concerned. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

leitmotiv
06-21-2007, 02:08 AM
I had the unpleasant experience of running into a guy who was still carrying a roaring ball of hate for Japan because his father was on the Bataan Death March (lived). My father sank Japanese in the war as a submariner, and he told me once the Japanese were poor b-----ds in the water, they were fellow sailors as far as the American submariners were concerned, and the one time they were ordered to shoot them in the water, they were very happy the captain countermanded the exec's order because the idea of shooting fellow sailors in the water was hateful to them. So much for the popular conception pitched today that the Pacific War was a universal race war with no holds barred. Maybe sailors are more liberal---my father voted for Shirley Chisholm in '72.

K_Freddie
06-21-2007, 02:19 AM
New Hollywood blockbusters...
1)"Letters from Iwo Jima" - A big hit in the USA (Gee never expected that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif)

2)"Letters from Iwo To" - A big hit in Japan (Mann, The hollywood groupies are upset http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif)

Well let's call it "Hell on earth", this name should ring a bell.. ding ding.. boys!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M_Gunz
06-21-2007, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
The Angloamerican curriculums don't mention Dresden.

They did when I went to school. And others. We had this thing going on back then that everyone
just called "Viet Nam" and it was cool to tell about war not being cool.

M_Gunz
06-21-2007, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Then can call it whatever they want but to me and my children it will always be known as Iwo Jima. Japan is good at denying their past. Even if this is not the reason for the name change.

Are you ready to move to some kind of dirt-reservation and give the rest of the country back to
the people that were here before 1500? If not then.........

M_Gunz
06-21-2007, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So to those of you who wish to keep hammering away at a foe that YOU never fought and have no reason to hate except blind bias......Is NOT being a champion the image you wish to project of yourself?

You don't have to believe in karma, it believes in you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Some times a troll is just a troll?

Hawgdog
06-21-2007, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
I think the Japanese government/nation should take responsibilty for what they did in WW2

Unlikely. Flyboys (excellent book- must read) suggested more humans died under a bayonette or sword by Japanese soldiers than the total in all other theaters of combat.

So, the island was named incorrectly at the hands of the victors. Japanese revisionists, American revisionists, Russian revisionists...Viking revisionists..Roman revisionists... History Happens. As does the rewriting of it at the hands of the Victors.
If you're an American, try reading your childs books (grade 1-4) Better take some advil and nighttime Niquil before reading. I had no idea the native americans were so peaceful, In the 1700's British and French were actually helpful, AND we lost a stinking planet somewhere!

joeap
06-21-2007, 04:54 AM
Good for the Japanese, non-issue for me.

It's all Luke's fault you neewbs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

HotelBushranger
06-21-2007, 05:47 AM
Then can call it whatever they want but to me and my children it will always be known as Iwo Jima. Japan is good at denying their past. Even if this is not the reason for the name change.

You've got one hell of a chip on your shoulder there.

ViktorViktor
06-21-2007, 06:09 AM
While we're on the subject of CHANGING NAMES IN ORDER TO DENY THE PAST', I propose that we demand that the Germans/Austrians be once again called Huns. (Remember the saying from WWI 'beware of the Hun in the sun!'? It seems Germans were known as Huns in WWI.)

Those sly Germans must be trying to dodge their responsibility for WWI by not referrring to themselves any longer as Huns, BE SURE !!

Da_Godfatha
06-21-2007, 06:17 AM
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History. Then some Euro clown comes up with the Indians, slavery and dozens of other things. News people, the first EUROPEANS in America started to kill off the American Indians long before America was a country. It was the EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the New World ..... no to mention what the Holy Spanish Catholics did.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?

Back to the topic, as was said, it will always be for millions of people Iwo Jima, what it is called today or in another 60 years, does not matter.

Bearcat99
06-21-2007, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Anyone know if Chi Chi Jima is correct or if it too is Chi Chi To?

I believe it was Chi Chi Jima. In one of the letters from Iwo a writer mentions Chi Chi Jima.. not Chi Chi To..


Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I had the unpleasant experience of running into a guy who was still carrying a roaring ball of hate for Japan because his father was on the Bataan Death March (lived). My father sank Japanese in the war as a submariner, and he told me once the Japanese were poor b-----ds in the water, they were fellow sailors as far as the American submariners were concerned, and the one time they were ordered to shoot them in the water, they were very happy the captain countermanded the exec's order because the idea of shooting fellow sailors in the water was hateful to them. So much for the popular conception pitched today that the Pacific War was a universal race war with no holds barred. Maybe sailors are more liberal---my father voted for Shirley Chisholm in '72.

I thought Letters from Iwo was an excellent film... if anything it showed the same universal truth that still holds true today.... in any nation at any time... no one is a monolith. Many of the Japanese soldiers wanted to go to war as badly as they wanted hot pokers shoved up thier noses.. but what do you do when you get drafted, when you enlist during peace time and the policy makers decide that it is time for war for some reason or other... you do what soldiers always do... you do your duty to the uniform that you wear and hope like he!! that you can make it back home in one piece.

That coupled with the fact that Japanese society , as sublime as it may have been on some levels, was cruel and militaristic to the nth degree. Even within it's own ranks, and it was thoroughly seasoned with the same "racial superiority" BS that plagued the Nazis... not to mention several other nations throughout the 19th & 20th centuries, makes some of the ridiculous BS in this thread just mind boggling. Some of you guys need to just get over yourselves. The war is over. The whole issue was brought up not by the Japanese government but by the people who lived on the island. So what if it was the recent publicity that sparked it. The Washington Redskins and Atlanta Braves have been around for decades.. and it always stuck in the craw of Native Americans... but when they had enough they tried to do something to get the names changed.... to no avail... and I am sure it wont be the last time.

While it is true that the Japanese government is in denial about a lot of things... and the same cultural pride and stubborness that would allow and even encourage men to see suicide by grenade as more "honorable" rather than trying to stay alive to continue to fight.. even if it is a loosing battle, could cause a known war criminal to choose to not apologize for his crimes... in the end these men were just that..... mere men... and I don't care what anyone wants to act like in this thread.... no nation or race of people has a monopoly on inhumane treatment of others. I posted this because I thought it was interesting. I should have known that the thread would take the direction that it did. Get over yourselves fellas... we are all guilty as he!! of something at some point in our history. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Feathered_IV
06-21-2007, 07:12 AM
I wonder how much your average WW2 Japanese civilian could possibly have known about atrocities commited by the armed forces overseas?

These things were unlikely to have been publicised. Most IJA troops, once posted overseas never came home either. They were in the field for the duration, so there would have been a pretty tight lid kept upon many of these things.

I suspect your average WW2 Japanese civilian was not aware of the atrocities commited far across the oceans. It's not the same as seeing your neighbours taken away, or seeing the cattle-cars and the smoke from the chimneys and saying, "Ah vell, vat can ve do?"

joeap
06-21-2007, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I wonder how much your average WW2 Japanese civilian could possibly have known about atrocities commited by the armed forces overseas?

These things were unlikely to have been publicised. Most IJA troops, once posted overseas never came home either. They were in the field for the duration, so there would have been a pretty tight lid kept upon many of these things.

I suspect your average WW2 Japanese civilian was not aware of the atrocities commited far across the oceans. It's not the same as seeing your neighbours taken away, or seeing the cattle-cars and the smoke from the chimneys and saying, "Ah vell, vat can ve do?"


Yea true, I suppose the point is what do we know about it now, and how do we (I mean us all for all of history) look at it now??

This kind of revisionism is not new, nor exclusive to one country.

J_Anonymous
06-21-2007, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Anyone know if Chi Chi Jima is correct or if it too is Chi Chi To?

"Chichi jima" was/is correct.

Both "jima" and "to" are written using the same Chinese character (the Chinese character means, not surprisngly, "island"). You may wonder why Chichi Island is pronounced "Chichi jima" while Iwo Island is pronounced Iwoto --- it just so happens. In the game, Okinawa is denoted as Okinawa jima in the map. In Japanese, Okinawa island is just "Okinawa" and they never call it Okinawa jima nor Okinawa to.

J_Anonymous
06-21-2007, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by TC_Stele:
You're telling me that it took two Hollywood movies for the people of "Iwo To" to realize that the world knew the island only as IWO JIMA!? That is just ridiculous. Maps, history references, and even Google Earth all refer to the island as Iwo Jima, and now all of a sudden the residence decide to tell the world its Iwo To. Sure would have been nice if they corrected the world right after the war, but they do it right after a movie about the battle on that island?

Well, whatever. They're free to name it whatever they want and I'm free to think an opinion of them.

More precise way of describing the influence of the new movie is this : The islanders lost their properties and their homeland in 1944 due to the war. They have always been wanting to return to their island and rebuild their life. But Iwoto was under the US occupation until 1960's, and the government didn't allow the islanders to regain their property after the change of jurisdiction back in Japan. I recall watching the TV news of "Iwo to" islanders back in 80's wanting to return to the island etc. but the post war generation didn't even know where the Iwoto was. Thanks to the new movie, at long last, 6 decades after the war was over, finally people realized that the residents of Iwoto existed before 1944 and they have not been allowed to return to their land. This is a perfect opportunity for the islanders to make their issues known to the whole nation and apparently they began renewed efforts to gain permission to return to their island.

Will the Iwoto islanders succeed in returning to their home? Not likely. The national government already sacrificed them again. The night landing practice of USN carrier airplanes over densely populated Atsugi City in southern suberb of Tokyo was always a major issue between the US and Japan whennever the mutual defense treaty was on the table. To reduce the noise polution problem (nobody in the city can sleep when USN practice "touch and go" in Atsugi base in the middle of night), Japanes government provided the Iwoto airstrip for the nighht landing practice of USN stationed in Atsugi. When that happpened several years ago, Iwoto islanders plight was reported in Japanese media, but nobody listened. So they are trying again.

F19_Orheim
06-21-2007, 08:25 AM
i am very close to bring up certain aspects of certain things in the present and past but I guess I better not go there..


this topic is hereby closed for me

SeaFireLIV
06-21-2007, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Good for them getting the name corrected finally....

As to this thread however.....It never ceases to amaze me how so few people understand now a days what a "Champion" is.....A champion puts forth their best effort, is a gracious loser, yet even more so a gracious winner. Extanding a hand to their enemy to help them up after they have won, not continuing to hammer on them once down and it's over as doing so is the true mark of a pathetic little person so absolutly terrofied they'll be beaten the next time and unable to handle it they do all they can to crush a now non-threat so afraid. More so, they by being a champion inspire deep friendships, or has no one here ever been in a fight?....To hammer away inspires hate and an assured later come back with a vengence...

So to those of you who wish to keep hammering away at a foe that YOU never fought and have no reason to hate except blind bias......Is NOT being a champion the image you wish to project of yourself?

You don't have to believe in karma, it believes in you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Must agree. Once you`ve beaten your foe, leave it be. No need to keep kicking him in the balls.

Divine-Wind
06-21-2007, 09:18 AM
LEBillfish hit it right on the nail.

berg417448
06-21-2007, 09:26 AM
I don't see what the big fuss is about. The name is being restored to the original.

Look at Cape Canaveral in Florida. It was re-named to Cape Kennedy but after a number of years the locals petitioned to have it restored to the original name and that was done.

R_Target
06-21-2007, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
File this one under "non-issue"

Yup. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Hawgdog
06-21-2007, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
I don't see what the big fuss is about. The name is being restored to the original.

Look at Cape Canaveral in Florida. It was re-named to Cape Kennedy but after a number of years the locals petitioned to have it restored to the original name and that was done.

Yes, the Cape, the famous Cape. God we lost a lot of men there.
Im serious, ever drive there? Not called Bloody A1A for nothing.


edit: cripes, that was muddy A1A..nevermind

Bearcat99
06-21-2007, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
i am very close to bring up certain aspects of certain things in the present and past but I guess I better not go there..

Absolutely......

ploughman
06-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:


Yes, the Cape, the famous Cape. God we lost a lot of men there.
Im serious, ever drive there? Not called Bloody A1A for nothing.


edit: cripes, that was muddy A1A..nevermind

Three good men were lost there when it was Cape Kennedy.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/Apollo1.jpg

zardozid
06-21-2007, 12:44 PM
One of the reasons their has been a (resent) "flaring-up" of hard feelings concerning Japans post war stance is that (a few years ago) the Prime Minister visited the Yasukuni Shrine. The Yasukuni Shrine honors solders who died for their country. Many Japanese feel that the solders who died for their country should be remembered and honored. These solders where men who (for the most part) didn't make policy's regarding how things should be done... they where just everyday people who died doing what they thought was right... Regardless of what we know to be true (historically) today... They where men who went to war for the safety of their country, and family. They looked at the facts (as they knew them to be) and made the supreme sacrifice. OR they where drafted and had no choice in the matter...

Many people feel that after 60 years its time (for the government)to say thank you.

Many (other) people feel that the Prime Ministers visit somehow condones what happened during the war...

Can one honor the dead without validating the war?

Chris0382
06-21-2007, 01:03 PM
Exactly Zardozid as we have our Vietnam memorials and honor our vets who sacraficed their time and lives unconditionally for our paranoid leaders who had communist phobia.

major_setback
06-21-2007, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
They can call it a Ham Sandwich

Don't mean a thing

I'm sure the descendents of the Earl of Sandwich would object!

TC_Stele
06-21-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
You're telling me that it took two Hollywood movies for the people of "Iwo To" to realize that the world knew the island only as IWO JIMA!? That is just ridiculous. Maps, history references, and even Google Earth all refer to the island as Iwo Jima, and now all of a sudden the residence decide to tell the world its Iwo To. Sure would have been nice if they corrected the world right after the war, but they do it right after a movie about the battle on that island?

Well, whatever. They're free to name it whatever they want and I'm free to think an opinion of them.

More precise way of describing the influence of the new movie is this : The islanders lost their properties and their homeland in 1944 due to the war. They have always been wanting to return to their island and rebuild their life. But Iwoto was under the US occupation until 1960's, and the government didn't allow the islanders to regain their property after the change of jurisdiction back in Japan. I recall watching the TV news of "Iwo to" islanders back in 80's wanting to return to the island etc. but the post war generation didn't even know where the Iwoto was. Thanks to the new movie, at long last, 6 decades after the war was over, finally people realized that the residents of Iwoto existed before 1944 and they have not been allowed to return to their land. This is a perfect opportunity for the islanders to make their issues known to the whole nation and apparently they began renewed efforts to gain permission to return to their island.

Will the Iwoto islanders succeed in returning to their home? Not likely. The national government already sacrificed them again. The night landing practice of USN carrier airplanes over densely populated Atsugi City in southern suberb of Tokyo was always a major issue between the US and Japan whennever the mutual defense treaty was on the table. To reduce the noise polution problem (nobody in the city can sleep when USN practice "touch and go" in Atsugi base in the middle of night), Japanes government provided the Iwoto airstrip for the nighht landing practice of USN stationed in Atsugi. When that happpened several years ago, Iwoto islanders plight was reported in Japanese media, but nobody listened. So they are trying again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're telling me that the islanders of "Iwo To" kept ranting on about some lost island no one knew about? You're telling me they never pointed on a map to the rest of the world that Iwo Jima was Iwo To? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Not sure what the population of the islanders was, but I'm gambling it doesnt exceed the thousands who died on "Iwo Jima." Not trying to say that the island is for the deceased, but I think respect is due to them.

DuxCorvan
06-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
News people, the first EUROPEANS in America started to kill off the American Indians long before America was a country. It was the EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the New World ..... no to mention what the Holy Spanish Catholics did.

News for you, the Holy Spanish Catholics were the only ones to give a d*mn about the rights of the natives then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolome_de_las_Casas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate

I can't remember the Holy Protestants having such a debate then nor later. Nice to see, the Black Legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend) lives and thrives.

J_Anonymous
06-21-2007, 02:57 PM
If I correctly understand, the number of original Iwoto residents was only about 1000 (who would want to live on an isolated volcanic island with little water and sulferic smell?!) The surviver today is probably only a few dozens, I would guess, even though the number of descendents of the original islanders must be thousands. The memory of WW2 has been fading hence nobody cared even if a map had an error in designated pronounciation of an island where nobody lives, and even if the island was called "Iwo jima" in English. After all, Japanese TV etc. always use the correct pronounciation "Iwoto" in Japan. But with the release of new movie, islanders were compelled to act to correct the error of the map published in Japan.

Would you care if Japanese tourists call the island of Oahu

"Oahu to" or "Oahu jima"?

Guess which one is right in Japanese http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

zardozid
06-21-2007, 06:34 PM
If I correctly understand, the number of original Iwoto residents was only about 1000 (who would want to live on an isolated volcanic island with little water and sulferic smell?!)

after the war ended many of the former residents wanted to return to the island. But they where not allowed to go home... In fact many other (different) islands where cleared by the USA so that they may test Atom bombs. I believe that their where people living in the Bikini Atol that had to move... They where told in 1968 that they could go home but the island was too radio active...



about a 3rd of the posts in this thread contains comments on Japan and the Japanese that if I was from that country would consider as very offensive...

I remember "not too long ago" you would see stereo types of Asians on tv ,that if they where of any other racial group, would have been found to be very offensive. ( funny looking, buck toothed,"me sooo sorry" repeating, short, thick glasses, slant slit eyes...)

(Nice it just started raining out side... smells nice. spring showers!) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DmdSeeker
06-21-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by zardozid:
One of the reasons their has been a (resent) "flaring-up" of hard feelings concerning Japans post war stance is that (a few years ago) the Prime Minister visited the Yasukuni Shrine. The Yasukuni Shrine honors solders who died for their country. Many Japanese feel that the solders who died for their country should be remembered and honored. These solders where men who (for the most part) didn't make policy's regarding how things should be done... they where just everyday people who died doing what they thought was right... Regardless of what we know to be true (historically) today... They where men who went to war for the safety of their country, and family. They looked at the facts (as they knew them to be) and made the supreme sacrifice. OR they where drafted and had no choice in the matter...

Many people feel that after 60 years its time (for the government)to say thank you.

Many (other) people feel that the Prime Ministers visit somehow condones what happened during the war...

Can one honor the dead without validating the war?

I thought it was the relatively recent inclusion of six war criminals to the shrine that was the problem, Isn't that why the emporer refuses to go there?

zardozid
06-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I thought it was the relatively recent inclusion of six war criminals to the shrine that was the problem, Isn't that why the emporer refuses to go there?

that was a topic of great debate in Japan. The idea of including "the six" didn't sit well with many Japanese. But they where included because it was felt that they (too) gave their lives in service of the Emperor.

Their was an outcry at the time of The Prime Ministers first visit.

I think that the "right wing" of Japanese politics felt that when China refused to accept Japans "regret of military aggression" that their was no pleasing them. Many Japanese felt ashamed of being Japanese for years after WW2, and their are some people who feel that it is ok for Japans to feel some pride. I think this attitude combined with certain actions (like "the six") have led some people to believe that Japan condones what happed. But these are two different issues. One, letting people feel good about what is good in being Japanese. AND two the controversial decision to include "the six". Two different issues that become intertwined do to bad feelings...

LEBillfish
06-21-2007, 08:25 PM
Check out this site I like to use for teaching myself Japanese. Very quickly you'll begin to understand the differences as to "use" of shima, jima, tou, etc.. There is often more to a word then just a straight translation in the language.



http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/tty/dosearch?sDict=o...L=E&T=island&WC=none (http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/tty/dosearch?sDict=on&sName=on&sGeo=on&sPlaces=on&sLing=on&H=PS&L=E&T=island&WC=none)

GIAP.Shura
06-22-2007, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History. Then some Euro clown comes up with the Indians, slavery and dozens of other things. News people, the first EUROPEANS in America started to kill off the American Indians long before America was a country. It was the EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the New World ..... no to mention what the Holy Spanish Catholics did.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?

Back to the topic, as was said, it will always be for millions of people Iwo Jima, what it is called today or in another 60 years, does not matter.

The events of Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima do not imply that Germany or Tokyo were victims in WW2. The importance of these events is that they are a reminder that all nations, especially in times of war, can and have committed atrocities.

As heavy bombers with greater ranges were developed in WW2 the use of strategic bombing to destroy industry became a very valuable tactic. Industry generally needs workers and so tends to be situated in areas which has a high civilian population. Where London, Coventry, Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima differ is that there was deliberate targeting of civilian population.

The method of targeting civilian populations for the purpose of achieving political ends is no different from terrorism. Civilian populations of all countries were victims in WW2. Just as I do not think that US citizens today should die for their leaders Middle East foreign policy, neither do I think that the German citizens of Dresden nor the Japanese citizens of Tokyo should have died for the decisions of their leaders.

If you believe that "if you start something, don't cry about the outcome," does this mean that you condone the Eastern Bloc occupation of Eastern Germany for 40 years? An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Your comments about the settlement of the Americas are similar. Saying that slavery and genocide of indigineous populations was carried out by Europeans means what exactly? It is purely an attempt to scapegoat the sins of the settlement by stereotyping an entire population, which rather handily happens to be foreign. "It wasn't us good Americans it was those nasty Europeans." The fact of the matter is that these were the methods that were used in the settlement of the Americas and these methods are what are aborrant. Neither did these methods nor the ideas which motivated them die once the U.S. as a nation was born and these methods continued to be used by Americans.

I do not think that the Americans of today are responsible for those sins of the past, and for the same reasons, I do not think the Germans or Japanese should still be doing penance for the sins of WW2.

Furthermore, surely the importance of the Battle of Iwo Jima to Americans is because of the number of US troops who died not what that little piece of land was called or will be called in the future. Why some people consider this renaming to be some sort of revisionist move is beyond me.

Freelancer-1
06-22-2007, 06:50 AM
Why are so many of you so afraid of Japan that you use any excuse to vilify it?

Seems to be a real issue only with the Americans here.

Why the conspiracy theories about the evil Japanese?

Clipper_51
06-22-2007, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I had the unpleasant experience of running into a guy who was still carrying a roaring ball of hate for Japan because his father was on the Bataan Death March (lived). My father sank Japanese in the war as a submariner, and he told me once the Japanese were poor b-----ds in the water, they were fellow sailors as far as the American submariners were concerned, and the one time they were ordered to shoot them in the water, they were very happy the captain countermanded the exec's order because the idea of shooting fellow sailors in the water was hateful to them. So much for the popular conception pitched today that the Pacific War was a universal race war with no holds barred. Maybe sailors are more liberal---my father voted for Shirley Chisholm in '72.

My dad was on Guam, Leyte, Le Shima and Okinawa. It was brutal, racial and more. Those were places none of us would like to find ourselves. Later in his life his cardiologist was Japanese. They got along great and swapped many stories.

Bewolf
06-22-2007, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by GIAP.Shura:


The events of Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima do not imply that Germany or Tokyo were victims in WW2. The importance of these events is that they are a reminder that all nations, especially in times of war, can and have committed atrocities.

As heavy bombers with greater ranges were developed in WW2 the use of strategic bombing to destroy industry became a very valuable tactic. Industry generally needs workers and so tends to be situated in areas which has a high civilian population. Where London, Coventry, Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima differ is that there was deliberate targeting of civilian population.

The method of targeting civilian populations for the purpose of achieving political ends is no different from terrorism. Civilian populations of all countries were victims in WW2. Just as I do not think that US citizens today should die for their leaders Middle East foreign policy, neither do I think that the German citizens of Dresden nor the Japanese citizens of Tokyo should have died for the decisions of their leaders.

If you believe that "if you start something, don't cry about the outcome," does this mean that you condone the Eastern Bloc occupation of Eastern Germany for 40 years? An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Your comments about the settlement of the Americas are similar. Saying that slavery and genocide of indigineous populations was carried out by Europeans means what exactly? It is purely an attempt to scapegoat the sins of the settlement by stereotyping an entire population, which rather handily happens to be foreign. "It wasn't us good Americans it was those nasty Europeans." The fact of the matter is that these were the methods that were used in the settlement of the Americas and these methods are what are aborrant. Neither did these methods nor the ideas which motivated them die once the U.S. as a nation was born and these methods continued to be used by Americans.

I do not think that the Americans of today are responsible for those sins of the past, and for the same reasons, I do not think the Germans or Japanese should still be doing penance for the sins of WW2.

Furthermore, surely the importance of the Battle of Iwo Jima to Americans is because of the number of US troops who died not what that little piece of land was called or will be called in the future. Why some people consider this renaming to be some sort of revisionist move is beyond me.

Amen. Some ppl just lack a life.

DuxCorvan
06-22-2007, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
So HE was helping the natives but his fellow countrymen were not. Not saying protestants were any better. I am really sick of everyone, Europeans and Americans and Asians whitewashing their own history and then pointing the fingers at everyone else. I also hate when people of any nationality when they hear or read a criticism from someone whose nationality they do not like jump to the defence of the position of the one criticised as a kneejerk reaction.

Just saying that generalizing over a nation, race or creed is just an unfair thing to do: the matter bias and eventually wars are made of. There were cruel and greedy Spaniards, and there were also Spaniards who weren't, just like any other country. Saying 'his fellow countrymen' marks EVERY OTHER SINGLE Spaniard of the time with the stigma of cruelty, and that's simply demonizing.

On the other side, I just can't understand people making moral judgement over people who lived centuries ago, according to the cultural values then tolerated or even encouraged, and completely different to those we admit today.

I'm also a bit fed up about the supposed moral debt between the vanquisher and the vanquished. The only difference between those nations and peoples is that everyone of them competed for dominion and resources, but some won and some lost. Had the losers been the winners, the now losers would have not had a better fate in the hands of their conquerors. There's no such thing as a moral superiority of people just because they are being oppressed, and had not the chance to be the oppressors instead.

HuninMunin
06-22-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History. Then some Euro clown comes up with the Indians, slavery and dozens of other things. News people, the first EUROPEANS in America started to kill off the American Indians long before America was a country. It was the EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the New World ..... no to mention what the Holy Spanish Catholics did.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?

Back to the topic, as was said, it will always be for millions of people Iwo Jima, what it is called today or in another 60 years, does not matter.

Wenn man keine Ahnung hat -> einfach mal Klappe halten.

carguy_
06-22-2007, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?

I tend to agree.Comparing the atrocities is slighly unfair,because it blurs the thick red line between not what is right or wrong (or who was bad or good) but who actually started the atrocities,especially the new methods.Nobody has a right to deny that all the fighting nations suffered the pain of war although there must always and for ever be a memory who was the agressor,who disturbed the peace.

That is a big problem nowadays.Political corectness blinds us all.The fear of saying anything that might upset your conversation partner is not right.The partner should understand and accept the truth and should not be upset that people remember.Some deeds in historyjust can`t get ereased just like that,they go on remembered for eternity.Because we do not want to upset our fellow friends of other nations,we do not talk about it.But when those fellows revise the whole story,the right words should always be said to deny EVERY SINGLE attempt of even slightly blurring the truth.

Our fellow friends may be saying unright,bad things but if they strike a certain tone,they should always be stopped and told the truth again and again until they stop spilling two faced facts around.

Frequent_Flyer
06-22-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
It's their island, they can call it what they want.

How about " Great Britan "?

ploughman
06-22-2007, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
It's their island, they can call it what they want.

How about " Great Britan "? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's their island, they can call it what they want. If they'd like to visit the alphabet and get themselves another 'i' there might be issues with another chain of islands in the NE Atlantic.

Frequent_Flyer
06-22-2007, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I wonder how much your average WW2 Japanese civilian could possibly have known about atrocities commited by the armed forces overseas?

These things were unlikely to have been publicised. Most IJA troops, once posted overseas never came home either. They were in the field for the duration, so there would have been a pretty tight lid kept upon many of these things.

I suspect your average WW2 Japanese civilian was not aware of the atrocities commited far across the oceans. It's not the same as seeing your neighbours taken away, or seeing the cattle-cars and the smoke from the chimneys and saying, "Ah vell, vat can ve do?"

Actually the atrocities the Japanese perpatrated on the Chinese in the 1930's was well publicised in Japan and the rest of the world . It lead to large trade sanctions against Japan from several nations. The Japanese did not have a problem with these atrocities until they were on the receiving end..... read : The Rape of Nanking,

zardozid
06-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Actually the atrocities the Japanese perpatrated on the Chinese in the 1930's was well publicised in Japan and the rest of the world . It lead to large trade sanctions against Japan from several nations. The Japanese did not have a problem with these atrocities until they were on the receiving end..... read : The Rape of Nanking,


not in the way you are making it sound...

The history of China is "whoever has the most guns is in charge". Violence has always been a part of the strategy for controlling the population of China. Chinese warlords strong armed, killed, made disappear, whoever/whatever they had to do to keep control...even after the Japanese left Chairman Mao killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese. I'm NOT saying its right, but any violence that was reported was reported as "quelling rebellion" and/or taking care of "organized crime", ect. China is still ruled with a bit of this attitude (Tiananmen square). Any foreign news or rumors that made its way into the (Japanese)popular culture was thought to be English/western slanted propaganda.



quote:
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?



I tend to agree.Comparing the atrocities is slighly unfair,because it blurs the thick red line between not what is right or wrong (or who was bad or good) but who actually started the atrocities,especially the new methods.Nobody has a right to deny that all the fighting nations suffered the pain of war although there must always and for ever be a memory who was the agressor,who disturbed the peace.

That is a big problem nowadays.Political corectness blinds us all.The fear of saying anything that might upset your conversation partner is not right.The partner should understand and accept the truth and should not be upset that people remember.Some deeds in historyjust can`t get ereased just like that,they go on remembered for eternity.Because we do not want to upset our fellow friends of other nations,we do not talk about it.But when those fellows revise the whole story,the right words should always be said to deny EVERY SINGLE attempt of even slightly blurring the truth.

Our fellow friends may be saying unright,bad things but if they strike a certain tone,they should always be stopped and told the truth again and again until they stop spilling two faced facts around.

My point wasn't that these bombings where unjust. I wasn't even getting into that argument. My question was "do their innocent lives count towards any kind of retribution". I was asking whether anyone felt that their lives meant anything? I was wondering if their deaths help mend any "Hard Feelings"? Japan did pay for what happened in WW2. They didn't get away with anything... I think people forget. Many of the GI's that where involved in the bombings felt that these lives counted towards a debt. Thats how they lived with it...Don't forget.

Frequent_Flyer
06-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by zardozid:
[QUOTE]Actually the atrocities the Japanese perpatrated on the Chinese in the 1930's was well publicised in Japan and the rest of the world . It lead to large trade sanctions against Japan from several nations. The Japanese did not have a problem with these atrocities until they were on the receiving end..... read : The Rape of Nanking,


not in the way you are making it sound...

The history of China is "whoever has the most guns is in charge". Violence has always been a part of the strategy for controlling the population of China. Chinese warlords strong armed, killed, made disappear, whoever/whatever they had to do to keep control...even after the Japanese left Chairman Mao killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese. I'm NOT saying its right, but any violence that was reported was reported as "quelling rebellion" and/or taking care of "organized crime", ect. China is still ruled with a bit of this attitude (Tiananmen square). Any foreign news or rumors that made its way into the (Japanese)popular culture was thought to be English/western slanted propaganda.


You are confusing two distinct time periods in China.

The Japanese did not leave China. They were forced out.

And yes the world and the people of Japan were well aware of the inhumanity the Japanese Army
inflicted mostly on the civilan poulation of China.

zardozid
06-22-2007, 11:32 PM
The Japanese did not leave China. They were forced out.


whats the matter? do you think I'm trying to re-wright history. lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I know people who where in Japan at this time, and I know what their perceptions where.
I'm also not sure of what aspects of the Army involvement your talking about. Their was a strong distrust of
a lot of the information that was coming out of the western world at that time. Among a lot of people their was a feeling that England, and the Dutch, and china would say anything they could to gain the sympathy of the world. Japan was infringing on their empire and they wanted help/sympathy to defend it. People where aware that some very serious violence was going on, but many where not sure why or what specifically was happening. No one wants to believe their country has or is doing wrong...Many, many people didn't believe the worst of the stories.

Many people in Japan felt that America initiated the climate of Military intimidation. Many Japanese felt that Japan wanted to be left alone but the USA forced them with military power to open their ports. This initiated a climate of mistrust, and fear amongst the rank and file. Thus a very powerful culture of military influence was born...


I'm not trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I just thought I would share some of what I know... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It may seem that all Japanese where war mongers that had no sympathy/empathy or human feelings...but that just wasn't the case. Everyone wasn't pro-war and not everyone condoned (or even believed) the evil that men can do. Everyone doesn't always see things the same way.

Bearcat99
06-23-2007, 08:29 AM
Lets just get off the atrocities track shall we? I have pruned this thread.... I wont hesitate to lock it.....

LStarosta
06-23-2007, 08:54 AM
LoL... as if what I said was so offensive? BTW you might want to "prune" all the posts that quoted mine too, because otherwise it might demoralize the PC police. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

zardozid
06-23-2007, 10:42 AM
demoralize the PC police

Its not an issue of PC for me. Its about being accurate. Making blanket statements/judgments about a group of people(in a voice of authority and righteousness) is inflammatory AND misleading. (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone)...Whenever I hear someone express an opinion of this nature I tend to think its because they are not aware of the whole picture. In this case I'm just pointing out that not everyone knew what was happening, and everyone wasn't pro-war..Even if someone was outraged by the atrocity's, women /children had NO influence in the government and could do nothing about it. Even if a man disagreed with the war he had no choice if he was drafted.

Civilians are the true victims in any war...on ANY side!

leitmotiv
06-23-2007, 10:57 AM
Man, this baby has legs. All because the natives changed the name back to the precise name the island really had. But, only a fool laughs at history---look at all the blood spilled recently over history in the Balkans. History is the one thing into which human beings can really sink their their teeth, and which really does matter.

Bearcat99
06-23-2007, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
LoL... as if what I said was so offensive? BTW you might want to "prune" all the posts that quoted mine too, because otherwise it might demoralize the PC police. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Don't flatter yourself... I pruned this thread of more posts than yours... Im not trying to censor.. I just want to keep the flavor of the thread on target. We don't need the derogatory comment. Whether the Japanese government does or doesn't acknowledge it's wartime deeds is totally irrelevant to this thread.



Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Man, this baby has legs. All because the natives changed the name back to the precise name the island really had. But, only a fool laughs at history---look at all the blood spilled recently over history in the Balkans. History is the one thing into which human beings can really sink their their teeth, and which really does matter.

Yes and you would be surprised at how many people are totally clueless to how bad it was over there. Then again maybe you wouldn't....

leitmotiv
06-23-2007, 11:20 AM
I followed the whole thing from the beginning with my jaw agape just as I did Rwanda. What a piece of work is man.

LW_lcarp
06-23-2007, 10:29 PM
So its the Island formally known as Iwo Jima?

Da_Godfatha
06-24-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
It is always funny how whenever the subject comes up about the Japanese or Germans in WW2, some clown ALWAYS brings Dresden up, or the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Well I say .... so what? The Luftwaffe starting the bombing of civilians first. The Japanese bombed Chinese cities, killed alot of civilians too. The Italians dropped gas on their colonies.
It is so cool for the Germans, ( I do know what I am talking about, I live and work in Germany since 1978) and now the Japanese to say, "Hey, the Evil Allies bombed us...Why? We did no harm !" THAT is Revisionist History. Then some Euro clown comes up with the Indians, slavery and dozens of other things. News people, the first EUROPEANS in America started to kill off the American Indians long before America was a country. It was the EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the New World ..... no to mention what the Holy Spanish Catholics did.

Now, I do not condone the killing of civilians ( I saw enough of that in Vietnam ), but I do believe, if you start something, don't cry about the outcome. It gets so old when the Dresden/Tokyo card is played. Ask someone from Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Conventry..... etc. what THEY think about Dresden. Dresden was attacked AFTER some death camps were liberated. Yes, I think it may have been revenge related, but who knows?

Back to the topic, as was said, it will always be for millions of people Iwo Jima, what it is called today or in another 60 years, does not matter.

Wenn man keine Ahnung hat -> einfach mal Klappe halten. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, well.............. Sieg Heil Dude !

I see the Brown Troops are still alive in Germany. Are you from Bayern by chance ?

HuninMunin
06-24-2007, 03:41 PM
Carefull there mate.

Wenn du hier vor aller Welt ernsthaft den Eindruck wiedergibst, dass wir in Deutschland ber Dresden empt wren, hast du gewaltig einen an der Waffel Freund.
Und in Geschichte scheinst du auch nicht sonderlich gut zu sein, wenn du behauptest das Dritte Reich htte als erstes einen Bombenkrieg gegen Zivilisten gefhrt.

Fr jemanden, der seit '78 in Deutschland lebt gibtst du dich bemerkenswert "pupertr".

joeap
06-24-2007, 04:35 PM
You do know many on this forum, and not just native English speakers, do not understand German. That is very rude of you sir.

HuninMunin
06-24-2007, 04:53 PM
The person I adress claims to speak german.
And I decided to write in German because the contend of the post is a personal attack towards this person.
I dont want to flame in this thread.
I will translate it if you wish it - but writing in german seemed the easiest way to avoid further distraction from the topic.
I have no interest in taking this to PMs, because this might be interesting to fellow german members.

My honest apologies if I offended you in any way, this was not my intention.
As a sidemark though; why is it more rude to write in german then to call another user ( a german on top of it) a Nazi?

LStarosta
06-24-2007, 04:56 PM
I understood something about a "waffel" and now im hungry. Going to get the iron heated up brb.

DuxCorvan
06-24-2007, 04:57 PM
Joeap: Denn muss du eine Sprache lernen. Englisch ist nicht die einzige Sprache in der Welt.

HuninMunin
06-24-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
I understood something about a "waffel" and now im hungry. Going to get the iron heated up brb.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

joeap
06-24-2007, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Joeap: Denn muss du eine Sprache lernen. Englisch ist nicht die einzige Sprache in der Welt.

En fait, je parles le francais et aussi un peu de russe. Je comprends quelque mots et phrases en allemand puisque j'habites en Suisse ( Genve, une ville francophone mais un pays Germanphone).

Oh and I can understand Greek well, can't speak it, as my parents are Greek, born in Egypt who can speak Arabic as well as English and French. Don't assume anything just because I am an English speaker.

joeap
06-24-2007, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:

As a sidemark though; why is it more rude to write in german then to call another user ( a german on top of it) a Nazi?

It is not, that WAS rude of Da-Godfatha. I got the gist from my very elementary German, and Babelfish BTW.

HuninMunin
06-24-2007, 05:30 PM
Again, I just felt this was the best way to handle it without flaming.

BTW
Isn't Genf a wonderfull town?
I love it.

zardozid
06-24-2007, 05:45 PM
"Living on the edge!" The Aerosmith song fades way to the sounds of lively international debate over the relevant topics of the day. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif