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MB_Avro_UK
02-24-2006, 04:12 PM
hi all,

Saw tonight this DVD. Tells the story of a Russian teenager during WW2 from his perspective as a new Partisan. A very disturbing film.

It puts into perspective il2. We fly as a 'game' but we must never forget the consequences of war. Russia lost 20 million people in WW2.

Available on Amazon. I saw a reference to this DVD on this forum and it has been worth buying.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

crazyivan1970
02-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Great movie.

telsono
02-24-2006, 04:31 PM
Was that movie "North Star"? If it was, wasn't that a PE-2 that he flew on his mission?

MB_Avro_UK
02-24-2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by telsono:
Was that movie "North Star"? If it was, wasn't that a PE-2 that he flew on his mission?

hi,Telsono

No...this is a different movie.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

crazyivan1970
02-24-2006, 04:35 PM
The only movie with Pe-2 i know of, was "Chronicle of the dive-bomber"

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=9360&genreid=&genresubid=

Tooz_69GIAP
02-24-2006, 04:37 PM
I read a while back a book by Primo Levi about jewish partisans trying to get to Israel. Facinating narrative. I forget the title though.

I read a lot of books about personal accounts, and memoirs, and so on. It does really bring home the reality of what happened. I like to be reminded of that.

telsono
02-24-2006, 04:41 PM
I would recommend "North Star" as well, which was a WWII Hollywood pro-Soviet propaganda film. What aircraft were they using in "North Star"? It sure resembled a Pe-2 to me.

MadBadVlad
02-24-2006, 04:43 PM
Saw "Come and See" when it first came out, must have been 1986/87, when I was living in London and they put it on in a small independant cinema. I really liked the way it was filmed from the point of view of the kid and that he could not hear anything properly due to a bomb exploding nearby at the start of the film. You see what he sees, but sounds are often muffled and indistinct to mimic his temporary deafness. Quite a moving film. Its in Russian with subtitles, or was, I hope they haven't dubbed it.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-24-2006, 04:44 PM
Is this a documentary or no? Also, is there period footage? Sounds interesting. Also, is it in english?


TB

kameron1974
02-24-2006, 04:51 PM
Very cool movie althogh the end is a bit bizarre.
My favorite aspect is the FW189 flying eye used in the movie. Whenever something bad is about to go down you hear the drone of it.
The plane is almost a charactor in the movie.

Inadaze
02-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Come and See is a movie Thunderbolt, not a documentary.
I saw a docu about it a few weeks ago, all the bullets and explosions in the film were created using real ordanance! The lead actor had a near escape in a scene where explosions went of near to him, he was so scared his legs didn't move when he needed them and he only just managed to hop out of the dangerzone.

It's a great film, and pulls no punches in it's depictions of war, very powerful. Thanks for the headsup http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm gonna get the DVD.

leitmotiv
02-24-2006, 04:54 PM
COME AND SEE is a film drama, TgD Thunderbolt56, and it is available in English. An incredible film. Thanks fot the tip on CHRON OF THE D BOMBER, crazyivan1970---will get this item. I have the film on the Baltic Fleet Il-4 torp bomber squadron. Would appreciate a film list of the best Russian-made WWII films. I just bought MOTHERLAND and am watching it---very impressive.

sokil
02-24-2006, 05:54 PM
COME AND SEE

Runtime: Argentina:146 min / Germany:146 min / Russia:142 min / Sweden:142 min / USA:140 min
this is from Internet Movie Database, now I wonder , what did they cut in Russian/Swedish and American versions?

BigC208
02-24-2006, 06:07 PM
Read about this movie on this website about six months ago. I sort of looked at it as a docu drama. Very disturbing, the killed people behind the barn scene is haunting. Slow paced but powerfull. You realy see this innocent kid grow old in front of your eyes. Probably the best anti war movie I have ever seen. Not for folks with a weak stomach.

SaQSoN
02-24-2006, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Tells the story of a Russian teenager during WW2

Belorussian teenager, actually. Belorussia is ex-Soviet republic, now independent state with Minsk as a capital.
During the WWII it had most heavy partizan movement among all other occupied USSR territories. This country is covered with lots of large woods and swamps, providing an ideal hide-out for partizan units.
Obviously, the civilian population suffered badly form German "punishment" actions (which is shown in the movie.
Hundreds of villages were burned down together with their habitants during this actions. There is a special memorial to this at ex-Khatyn village not too far from Minsk, which also was a victim of such anti-partizan punishment action.

leitmotiv
02-25-2006, 12:21 AM
Thanks for the information, Vladimir. People should never forget the terrible plans Hitler had for all the Slavs. Any other films of the war you could recommend?

BfHeFwMe
02-25-2006, 12:43 AM
Yeah, some of those partasans actively fought on till the 1950's. Guess they weren't about to tolerate any brutal dictators. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

SaQSoN
02-25-2006, 08:06 AM
Any other films of the war you could recommend?
Well, if you're speaking about the Russian ones, I can suggest "V boy idut odni stariki" = "Only the oldmen go to battle" - a movie about Russian fighter pilots. The movie was filmed in mid-60s for TV and it is B/W. As it was common for the period, they used some modern aerobatic planes to substitute the La-5 and 109, but if watched without neat-picking, it's great.
Another aviation-related movie, that may be of interest is "Torpedonoscy" = "Torpedo bombers". It is about Soviet naval pilots at Murmansk.
Next would be "Oni srajalis za Rodinu" = "They fought for Motherland". About some infantry action.
Next, "Proverka na dorogah" = "Check at the roads" - about partizan actions.
Also, there was mentioned the "Chronicles of a dive-bomber"

I could name few dosen or so movies, and that wouldn't be a complete list. Basically, most Soviet-made GPW-related (GPW=Great Patriotic War) movies are well done and have a good script. Also would serve as good refernce for understanding the motivations of Soviet combatants in the war.
Yet, all they should be taken with the grain of salt in regard to comunist and USSR patriotic propaganda. In some movies there is too much of that. Also, the older the movie, the more "demonisation" of the enemy is present there.

Also note, that my translations of the movie titles may be different from those, under which they may be available in English.

What you should avoid at all costs are the modern Russian movies and TV-shows about the war. Most of them are poorly scripted and directed, has huge historical inacuracies and a lots of other stupid things. Absolute trash, in two words. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


some of those partasans actively fought on till the 1950's
In Russia and Belorussia the nationalistic movement at the period was weak and almost non-existant. Therefore, in the occupied regions of this republics only communist partizans were active.
On contrary, at the Ukrain and Baltic republics, this movement was very strong. Initially, the nationalists in this countries were collaborating with Germans. But later, due to the Nazi policy towards the local population, the nationalist movement went appart, and some of it's factions desided to take up arms against the occupants.
So, in Ukrain and, in smaller extent, in the Baltia, were acting pro-communist and pro-nationalist partizan units simultaniously. They were fightning not only with Germans, but also between each-other. Same situation was in Yugoslavia, Greece, Slovakia, Poland and in many other countries, occupied by Nazis.
After a terriotry (of the USSR) with such mix were liberated, the pro-communist factions would join the Red Army, while nationalist factions would start fighting against local Soviet government institutions, supported by Germans and later, after the 1945 - by British and US inteligence services.
Besides them, there were also a number of pure criminal bands, consisting from deserted soldiers, war criminals and "conventional" criminals acting in Ukrain, Russia, Belorussia, Poland and Baltia in late 40's - early 50's. Their organization and actions were similar to nationalisitc guerilla units, but they were acting without any political aim.

lowfighter
02-25-2006, 08:15 AM
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there's also an USSR old movie about Kursk battle?

DjTeD
02-25-2006, 11:24 AM
Come And See is the best war movie I have ever seen...

The one with the most insane climate, and very brutal... paradoxally, I find it much more brutal than, for example, the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan...

Kocur_
02-25-2006, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">some of those partasans actively fought on till the 1950's
In Russia and Belorussia the nationalistic movement at the period was weak and almost non-existant. Therefore, in the occupied regions of this republics only communist partizans were active.
On contrary, at the Ukrain and Baltic republics, this movement was very strong. Initially, the nationalists in this countries were collaborating with Germans. But later, due to the Nazi policy towards the local population, the nationalist movement went appart, and some of it's factions desided to take up arms against the occupants.
So, in Ukrain and, in smaller extent, in the Baltia, were acting pro-communist and pro-nationalist partizan units simultaniously. They were fightning not only with Germans, but also between each-other. Same situation was in Yugoslavia, Greece, Slovakia, Poland and in many other countries, occupied by Nazis.
After a terriotry (of the USSR) with such mix were liberated, the pro-communist factions would join the Red Army, while nationalist factions would start fighting against local Soviet government institutions, supported by Germans and later, after the 1945 - by British and US inteligence services.
Besides them, there were also a number of pure criminal bands, consisting from deserted soldiers, war criminals and "conventional" criminals acting in Ukrain, Russia, Belorussia, Poland and Baltia in late 40's - early 50's. Their organization and actions were similar to nationalisitc guerilla units, but they were acting without any political aim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I belive its just usual wording and you didnt mean to create possible negative sounding of term "nationalists". There were also such groups naturally, i.e. people with nationalistic ideas in their minds, which included violence against national minorities, but there were also groups of people who were simply patriotic. For noone should expect Ukarinians of Balts to be patriots not of their homelands, but Soviet Union. So it would be more fair to mention communist, patriotic and nationalistic groups. Naturally in soviet propaganda language 'patriotic' was reserved for communists only.

There was no fighting between underground groups in Poland, where was Home Army (Armia Krajowa), making 95% of underground and People's Army (Armia Ludowa), i.e. group made both of soviet agents (they were literally dropped with parachutes) and communists - Polish citizens. The first made serious war effort, the latter just actions like bombing restaurants Nur fur Deutsche, i.e. only for German military and civilians, which resulted in bloody retaliatins for no real damage to nazis.

Waldo.Pepper
02-25-2006, 12:39 PM
UPA = a pet interest of mine. Further reading for anyone interested. (of widely varying quality! Use your own judgement!)

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/

http://www.uea.ac.uk/his/webcours/russia/documents/vlasov.shtml

http://www.kolos.com/readroom/upa.html

http://www.ukemonde.com/bandera/index.htm

leitmotiv
02-25-2006, 02:22 PM
Thank you for all the information about the history and the films, Vladimir/SaQSoN. I have TORP BOMBERS. I thought it was a very good film. All the characters fully realized, human yet unsentimental. Also have THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR MOTHERLAND and I am presently watching it. Very impressive, cinematically interesting, and harrowing. I will look for the fighter pilot and partisan films. There is a very good source for Russian film on DVD in the U.S.A.---russiandvd.com. Too bad about the contemporary films and TV shows. Thanks again.

SaQSoN
02-25-2006, 03:58 PM
Kocur_, about patriotic vs nationalist.

How about ethnic cleamsing conducted by UPA against poles and by AK against Ukrainians at the Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine in 1944? I bet, all UPA or AK members were positioning themselfs as "patriots". As did certain people in Yugoslavia many years later.

Or, how about Ukrainian formations under SS command (Galichina inf.div. der SS), used to supress Slovak and Yugoslavian partizans, or SS fromations from Baltic states, doing the same in Belorussia?
All of them think about themselfs as patriots, even despite the fact, they fought in occupant's army and outside of their country.

Same goes to those, who fought under the red banner: being a communists do not denies them being patriots at the same time...

Ok, I won't speak anymore about other countries, but I know enough about UPA, to call them "ntionalists". This is a POLITICAL platform, but not the MOTIVATION, which was patriotism for both nationalists and, say, communists.

The war, and particulary a civil war, isn't a simple thing. Where it looks white to one people, it may seem black to others, while being full spectre in the reality...

SaQSoN
02-25-2006, 04:10 PM
leitmotiv,

Just another movie, that came in my mind. It is called "Father of a soldier" or, may be it is "Soldier's father", something like this, you got it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It is also BW, but very good IMO. Recommend watching it too, if you can find it.

Regarding the Kursk battle. There also was a movie about the SU-152 crew during this battle. Unfortunately, I don't remember how it was called. It is also BW, filmed during the mid-60 for TV. I liked it as well.

And offcourse, Soviet all-times TV series hit, "The 17 moments of spring". A bit naive from todays perspective, but still cool. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And another "spy movie" TV series about Soviet agent in Abwehr, called "Variant Omega". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, and finally, a relatively new (mid 90s), but surprisingly good movie "Summer of 1944" about Smersh operations against German spies.

leitmotiv
02-25-2006, 04:37 PM
I'll look for all, Vladimir, thanks. I saw a film in 1972 which was about a very young Russian soldier fighting the Germans in WWII. I remember one scene in which he is running for his life from a Tiger I tank which pretty well symbolized the precarious existence of the infantryman. If you can recall the Su-152 Kursk film, I'd be obliged to you! Have you, by any chance tried the "Liberation" add-on for OPERATION FLASHPOINT? From what I have seen it looks like the ultimate land sim for the WWII Eastern Front. I understand it was done entirely by Russians.

Kocur_
02-25-2006, 04:47 PM
Like I said, there were different groups. Problem is that in popular view word "nationalists" has a negative tone. Opposing communist to nationalists, as good vs bad, as someone might read it, is false. For there was massive terror by communists, wherever they were able to reach, comparable only to nazi one. Soviet occupation of Ukraine or Baltic countries was terrible enough to motivate many to join enemy of their enemy - whoever that allie would be. There was nothing simple there and then.

Wo"y" is not the topic I would like to discuss. Whatever happened, it happened, long time ago. Long live free Ukraine!

SaQSoN
02-25-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I saw a film in 1972 which was about a very young Russian soldier fighting the Germans in WWII. I remember one scene in which he is running for his life from a Tiger I tank which pretty well symbolized the precarious existence of the infantryman.
Yes, I know which movie you're talking about, yet do not remember it's name too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Great movie, too.

If you can recall the Su-152 Kursk film, I'd be obliged to you!
Hardly I'll be able... I've seen it long ago. Somehow, the name "Zveroboi" (Hunters or something like this) cames to my mind, but I may be completely wrong...


Have you, by any chance tried the "Liberation" add-on for OPERATION FLASHPOINT? From what I have seen it looks like the ultimate land sim for the WWII Eastern Front. I understand it was done entirely by Russians.
Yes, sure I've seen it. Unfortunately, this add-on is still missing a full-scale campaign and is bug-ridden (as most enthusiast's add-ons of that size and depth). Good thing, they still develope it and release patches to it.
They also promise to release the campaign someday.
In my opinion, it is one of the best OFP add-ons, particulary among WWII ones.
There is also another add-on, made by Finnish OFP enthusiasts, featuring the Winter War campaign. It partially uses the Lib add-on units but also adds a lots of Soviet and Finnish ones, particulary planes for both sides.
Though, I didn't tried it yet.
And BTW, the Liberation add-on wasn't made only by Russians, I heard about Poles, Germans and, I think, Slovaks, who also participated in it.

SaQSoN
02-25-2006, 05:18 PM
Soviet occupation of Ukraine...
...is a complete bullsht.
Ukraine joined USSR as a result of 1917-1921 Russian civil war (and that's another story, a sad one, but not connected to the events of 1941-50 Ukrainian guerilla movement). And it seen as much bad and good things, as any other Soviet republic. Lenin, Stalin and all other "revolutioneers" wasn't too much selective (nation-wise) in their terror against their own (and other too) country population.

I wonder, how can be my 5 uncles (brothers of my grand-mother), who were born in Kiev, whose uncestors were born in Kiev, and who died during 1941-1943, while defending their native city from Germans, or saving local jew children from Babiy Yar could be "occupants of Ukraine"?
One of this uncles died in his I-152 in 1941 in air combat, 2 of them MIA in Darnitza surrounding, 1 MIA in Kiev GESTAPO in 1942 for being a part of a pro-communist resistance, 1 crushed by truck against the wall in 1943 for being helping to jews (he was turned to Germans by those Ukrainian nationalists, who, BTW, were sharing those views of Hitler, regarding the "jewish question").
So, you call them all "Occupants"? You ask not make those nationalists look "negative"? Ma-a-an, what do you know?..

MB_Avro_UK
02-25-2006, 05:47 PM
hi all,

I am British and this film opened my eyes to the War on the 'Russian' front.It was very educational for me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Kocur_
02-25-2006, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Soviet occupation of Ukraine...
...is a complete bullsht.
Ukraine joined USSR as a result of 1917-1921 Russian civil war (and that's another story, a sad one, but not connected to the events of 1941-50 Ukrainian guerilla movement). And it seen as much bad and good things, as any other Soviet republic. Lenin, Stalin and all other "revolutioneers" wasn't too much selective (nation-wise) in their terror against their own (and other too) country population.

I wonder, how can be my 5 uncles (brothers of my grand-mother), who were born in Kiev, whose uncestors were born in Kiev, and who died during 1941-1943, while defending their native city from Germans, or saving local jew children from Babiy Yar could be "occupants of Ukraine"?
One of this uncles died in his I-152 in 1941 in air combat, 2 of them MIA in Darnitza surrounding, 1 MIA in Kiev GESTAPO in 1942 for being a part of a pro-communist resistance, 1 crushed by truck against the wall in 1943 for being helping to jews (he was turned to Germans by those Ukrainian nationalists, who, BTW, were sharing those views of Hitler, regarding the "jewish question").
So, you call them all "Occupants"? You ask not make those nationalists look "negative"? Ma-a-an, what do you know?.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your familiy members happened to be there and then, the only Ukraine they knew was soviet one, they were bought up there and then. Iam not questioning their integrity - not a bit. And yes, they were defending thier native city, their country. Sad thing is, that it meant also defending the soviet state. They didnt have any choice sadly. Like I said, not many of simple things then and there.

EVERTYTIME those things are discussed I make clear differece between, nazis and Germas, or soviets/communists and Russinas/Ukrainians/Georgians etc. Now, how many millions of Ukrainians died in Great Starvation and collectivisation? What are those good things done by Soviet Union to Ukraine which are supposed to equal those bad, like GENOCIDE of 5 to 10 millions? How to call those actions of soviet regime murdering its citizens by millions? Not occupation, ok. So what? And is that not connected with UPA?
Ukraine JOINED what became later Soviet Union? Freely? Or was just taken? And what about western Ukraine, i.e. part being within Poland before WW2. Any members of Ukrainian intelligentsia from there to survive period after 17 sept.1939?
Now, what do I know? My gradfather was a Belarus, he lived in Poland before WW2. He had a farmstead near Wilno (Vilnus), was also local agricultural official. He ran cultural and agricultural radio broadcast in Belarussian in Polskie Radio Wilno (Polish Radio Station in Vilnus). Our family survied somehow soviet invasion of Poland in september 1939 and later witnessed Germans coming - and initial local reactions too (guess you would be surprised). Finnally our family was deported to Germany. Right after WW2 they were moved back where they lived before WW2, but now that was Soviet Union. Next thing he was arrested by NKVD and no trace since then. Just tears of my mother, still after 60 years. So m-a-a-n, what do you know?

I wonder also what do you have to say to/about Balts? They JOINED Soviet Union too? They should have been faithful to SU? Did it have any right to demand loyalty from them?


Again: soviets, communists is not equal to Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus, Georgians, Kazakhs etc. And Soviet Union is not equal to Russia, Ukraine, Belarusia, Georgia, Kazakhstan etc.

leitmotiv
02-25-2006, 10:55 PM
When I read your family histories, Kocur_ and Vladimir, I see how fortunate we were in the U.S. No war deaths in either my father or mother's families. My father and his two brothers all fought in the war. My mother's brother was drafted but never went overseas. My mother taught navigation to bomber navigators. The people in the East suffered horribly, before, during, and after the war. The 20th century was terrible to you.

Kocur_
02-26-2006, 01:32 AM
Indeed it was. Thank you.

Testus01
02-27-2006, 07:57 AM
About TORPEDONOSTSY, or Torpedo Bombers in English,
do anyone remember what machine they were flying with:
Tu-4s as far as I remember ?

See http://www.ruscico.com/eng/films/113
about the film (good catalogue too),
but there's no mention about plane type.

Looking at history from eastern side is a good lesson to us Westerners.
See our biased information is produced by money makers and how much we own to the Russian people.
Another good reason to go deeper about IL2 context.

leitmotiv
02-27-2006, 08:09 AM
Il-4

Testus01
02-28-2006, 03:21 AM
Thanks leitmotiv, sure gonna watch this film soon again. http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/kepek/planes/pics/il4_6.jpg

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/kepek/planes/pics/il4_4.jpg

leitmotiv
02-28-2006, 08:10 AM
Great phots!