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View Full Version : P.11 damage model...um...yeah, about that



Chuck_Older
01-28-2006, 08:00 PM
So, OK, I know the P.11 had a robust airframe

I am riddling the thing with bullets that makes a VVS bomber (DB-3, SBM) burst into flames, makes BF109s come apart, and at least shoots down Fw 190s

But this amazing P.11 keeps on flying. Heck, even dense black smoke or the occasional fire doesn't stop these intrepid pilots in their trusty P.11s

Sometimes I get lucky and kill the pilot on a head-on, and sometimes I'll make the thing leak gas and it will run out of fuel

I haven't been able to make it break with a P-40B/C, H81, or even a Bf 109E-4. I can shoot it down, but it will not have, for example, a wing, rudder, or even an aileron fall off. Let alone a fuselage failure or (gasp) an explosion

I can only imagine that this plane benefits from a very simple DM. Right now, it's a ruination of a plane because I can't make it die...it completely skews any scenario I put it in

What gives here?

VW-IceFire
01-28-2006, 08:09 PM
Probably has a damage model similar to the LaGG-3. Its just a very old DM lacking in quite a bit of detail.

Badsight.
01-29-2006, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But this amazing P.11 keeps on flying. Heck, even dense black smoke or the occasional fire doesn't stop these intrepid pilots in their trusty P.11s oh fire will stop a P-11 (eventually) , if your the pilot you will go red-vision & die , the plane tho will be OK!

- ignore that smoke , just keep plugging away

JtD
01-29-2006, 03:30 AM
All the damage you describe does happen, it's jsut that the P.11 soaks up a lot. Just gave it a few tries and would usually set in on fire which lead to an explosion shortly after. Also shot a wing off.

Friendly_flyer
01-29-2006, 03:54 AM
I have had a few Great War scenarions with it back before we had Gladiator and Falco. A good burst of the I-153s gunds would usually bring it down, or at least put it on fire.

Josiv_
01-29-2006, 05:56 AM
Have you tried to take off p11? If not try it. Its funny that this program is called simulator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Fm of this machine is out of space.


(ps. it didn't explode after reaching ~500km...)

jds1978
01-29-2006, 06:02 AM
i second CO's opinion. the P11c is the world's toughest crop duster. Add in a FM straight out of CE3K and it's making my current DCG Poland campaign a living hades. is any of this historic? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Chuck_Older
01-29-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
All the damage you describe does happen, it's jsut that the P.11 soaks up a lot. Just gave it a few tries and would usually set in on fire which lead to an explosion shortly after. Also shot a wing off.

have you ever knocked a wing off?? I haven't been able to

Please don't misunderstand, it's not as if I've just started using all the planes in the sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I've used the P.11 for Polish scenarios in which they are the enemy, but with the cannon armed 109E-4, you can kill them

However, with the apparently semi-permanent delay of both the Fokker and the Ki-27 (The Fokker would be my stand-in Ki-27 if the Ki-27 is not forthcoming, and the release of either is not looking to be anytime soon), I have been trying (again) to use the P.11 as a Ki-27

Not the best solution, but what else can I use? I-16? Looks wrong

So I had hoped that since I hadn't tried the H81A-2 against a P.11 since 4.01, that something may have been changed. I can shred a DB-3 with a H-81, but I cannot do the same to a P.11

Which is bad news, because the P.11's performance is great, it's manueverable, climbs great, and is slow compared to the H81, just what I need.

But the DM...

And it's too bad, because I'm teaching myself to skin slowly, and I learned a thing or two, while making this WIP:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/ki-27fake.jpg

Not too great, but I learned what goes into making a template, and how to make various things show up on it, why layers can do things and can't do things, and even what I did wrong with the panel lines

I won't finish it because it's useless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JtD
01-29-2006, 08:06 AM
Chuck, I had a few tries earlier today and did a screenshot to post in case you wouldn't want to believe in wings coming off. Sadly, I did overwrite it. So I went to the QMB to get another screenshot, this is my first try:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/P11.ntrk

It's too good for a screenshot. Watch the track. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Chuck_Older
01-29-2006, 08:16 AM
First time I'ver ever seen visual damage on a P.11

That's in about 100 shoot-downs.

Can you do it with a non-cannon armed plane? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JtD
01-29-2006, 08:20 AM
I have also tried the Hawk 81, but would always set the P.11 on fire before any visual damage occured.

Edit: It's also possible with 0.50 cal weapons as on the P-40E. 2 of them just isn't enough.

Chuck_Older
01-29-2006, 08:28 AM
drat

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2006, 08:43 AM
It`s possible that with so many aircraft in FB that the P.11 (among others) have been left out of the fine-tuning that the more complained about popular aircraft get.

JtD
01-29-2006, 09:11 AM
I think there is not much wrong, it just is too strong. If it took about half the number of hits it currently does it would be fine.

P.11 is not invulneralbe atm. On UK-D we run a Poland dogfight map which puts P.11 vs. Ju-87B as only choices. I frequently score 2 P.11 with the weak guns of the Stuka, front guns, mind you. Rear gunner is just a pain in the back. Usually they will go down with a killed pilot or on fire.

jds1978
01-29-2006, 09:27 AM
SeaFireLIV
Posted Sun January 29 2006 07:43
It`s possible that with so many aircraft in FB that the P.11 (among others) have been left out of the fine-tuning that the more complained about popular aircraft get.


that is what i'm thinking

Hawgdog
01-29-2006, 09:35 AM
Anyone here remember the P.11's first intro to the game?
I do, at that time those 7mm machine guns could rip a He-111 in two, and you often had to fight that plane at 2000 meters! It was nearly impervious to anything but cannon fire and never lost energy.
I'd say they nuetured it since then! LOL

p-11.cAce
01-29-2006, 09:51 AM
All this negaive talk about my loyal steed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I've had wings blown off and have ripped them off on occasion but I cannot recall ever losing a control surface itself. It usually ends for me by either being shot (the pilot) or fire. I'm not sure about the FM - the P-11 has a big lightly loaded wing (its max takeoff weight is only 3,506 pounds compared to a -109e at 5,875) and it flies like our Piper Pawnee tow planes; lots of lift, manueverable, elevator takeoffs at slow speeds, etc. I do agree though that it seems to absorb an awful lot of damage before a critical failure.

Hawgdog
01-29-2006, 09:59 AM
Ok, I just tested it for a quick QMB, and the ONLY damage I could record (yes, it would smoke, catch fire and explode, a wheel could come off, but as far as bullet holes and visible damage, this was it.
I went up against ace U2..or whatever that biplane is with the rear gunner,1936 I think. THe IAR with machine guns only smoked them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/p11.jpg

this is it, a bit of cowl damage, and NO bullet holes after getting pummeled ( I just drifted behind the gunner)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/p11a.jpg

JtD
01-29-2006, 10:21 AM
A shot from my testing facility:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/p11.jpg

Any questions left?

p-11.cAce
01-29-2006, 10:34 AM
How did you manage to hit it that many times and not set it on fire? P-11 usually is like a Japanese a/c when it comes to burning like gas soaked newspaper!

Hawgdog
01-29-2006, 10:59 AM
JTD, I bet those were cannon rounds, eh?
I got those kind of damage "looks" when it got hit with whirblewinds, AAA, and nose cannons.
but...machine gun fire seems to leave it unaffected (as far as damage "look" goes)

regards

JtD
01-29-2006, 11:31 AM
It was on fire, but fire does not show immediately if you press escape and return to mission.

Yes, it were 20 mm rounds. It is also possible with 0.50 cal. It is not possible with 7.92 mm, which has about zero effect.

LStarosta
01-29-2006, 11:44 AM
I think I'm gonna start flying the P.11 on WC.

Oleg -- P.11c is new best.

plumps_
01-29-2006, 11:59 AM
IIRC the modellers who were ready to improve the P-11c were asked to concentrate their effort on an add-on for BOB: http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=010089;p=0

The project's website (http://www.9-1939.pl/) seems to be down now! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Kocur_
01-29-2006, 12:40 PM
As unarmoured, without self-sealing tanks and of usual design P.11c surely should be vulnerable to mg fire like any other plane of such features. While adjusting its DM, a RL P.11c feature could be implemented, i.e. ability to drop out main tank, located in fuselage before cocpit. By pulling a lever P.11c pilot could drop leaking or burning tank out and continue flying for a little while on gas from a small tank in wing.
And on that occasion of those tweaks one more SHOULD be implemented:

P.11c TOP SPEED IN DIVE WAS 696KMH.

And it was not top 'safe' speed above which it would start to come apart, but top speed before drag was too great to continue accelerating.
P.11c pilots did score SOME victories over Luftwaffe planes, of which almost all were faster in horizontal speed ONLY because they could dive that fast. Without that ability in-game "P.11c" lacks its very basic feature.

Badsight.
01-29-2006, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I've used the P.11 for Polish scenarios in which they are the enemy, but with the cannon armed 109E-4, you can kill them

However, with the apparently semi-permanent delay of both the Fokker and the Ki-27 (The Fokker would be my stand-in Ki-27 if the Ki-27 is not forthcoming, and the release of either is not looking to be anytime soon), I have been trying (again) to use the P.11 as a Ki-27

Not the best solution, but what else can I use? I-16? Looks wrong

So I had hoped that since I hadn't tried the H81A-2 against a P.11 since 4.01, that something may have been changed. I can shred a DB-3 with a H-81, but I cannot do the same to a P.11

Which is bad news, because the P.11's performance is great, it's manueverable, climbs great, and is slow compared to the H81, just what I need.

But the DM...

And it's too bad, because I'm teaching myself to skin slowly, and I learned a thing or two, while making this WIP:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/ki-27fake.jpg

Not too great, but I learned what goes into making a template, and how to make various things show up on it, why layers can do things and can't do things, and even what I did wrong with the panel lines

I won't finish it because it's useless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif hey thats a nice skin effort there Chuck , dun give up ot it , i know id love to get some use out of it !

but onto the P-11 , lets just say that it has nowhere near the flight performance it used too . once we got the new Biplanes - it was totally knackered . no reason was ever given so you have to assume it was for balanced accuracy reasons . before that the P-11 was capable of holding its own against Chaika's ! , now its nothing like that at all anymore

if we do ever get the Nate , it should run rings around the P-11 : )

Chuck_Older
01-29-2006, 02:18 PM
I'd love to see it!

Actually, you're right, I will continue on the skin, because I could always use it as a Ki-27 or an variant of it as an A5M against Chinese I-16s...I don't think that campaign has been done. Hmmm...

I did mess up the template I made for the skin though, maybe I can save it. I should have worked on panel lines before AND after I applied color, but I didn't think it through