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Bearcat99
07-04-2009, 11:22 AM
Knights of the Sky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmu-UdAAKdY&feature=related) a 58 minute documentary of WWI flight. I believe it is in 8 parts..

triad773
07-04-2009, 11:24 AM
Nice!

Thanks BC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Choctaw111
07-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Thanks Barry.

funkster319
07-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Speaking of which I got my copy of "Rise of Flight" the other day - Pretty good it is too ...(bought from FSpilotshop.com ub case you wonder - took 2days to arrive - excellent)

M_Gunz
07-04-2009, 10:00 PM
TYVM Bearcat!

ADD: Good show though as usual I wish the people who did it could have gotten more facts straight and put more things in.

McCudden's headstone at The Aerodrome site. Great Epitaph, The Promised Land! (http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/headstones/mccudden1.php)

Waldo.Pepper
07-04-2009, 11:59 PM
The program - Aces Falling - was shown on BBC as part of the generally excellent Timewatch series. More here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jj523

And as part of my seemingly futile effort at promoting usenet, the program was posted to a.b.multimedia and also to a.b.tv 105 days ago, and can still be downloaded if you wish.

M_Gunz
07-05-2009, 02:29 AM
Waldo, most people don't know about usenet let alone that it's a much bigger source of information than the web.
Most people think that the web (and email if they even think of email) -is- the whole internet!

Add to that that the major USA high speed providers have extremely limited usenet access. You have to get more
serious than the average user to actually go out and pay more for what most perceive available on TV or at the
video store even after being shown that's not exactly true. Of course the other source is torrents and other web
sharing like Limewire but that's how it goes and why usenet is still Netta Incognita to the majority.

BTW, thanks big time for the head's up. Gotta get to binsearch and nzb that show! Right now all I have is the
8 parts as low quality flv files captured via Firefox and Download Helper.

x6BL_Brando
07-05-2009, 02:58 AM
Good show though as usual I wish the people who did it could have gotten more facts straight and put more things in.

My thoughts exactly. Good in parts but lacking in a lot of substance, it needed a two-hour format to do justice to the subject.

B

Uufflakke
07-05-2009, 03:21 AM
A colleague of mine made me aware of Usenet and binaries newsgroups. He convinced me by its advantages like faster downloads, no uploads, saver than Limewire or any other torrents etc.
So I installed the necessary stuff, read the manual but still can't get it to work, it's a bit more complicated than expected. Anyway, he needs to help me out one of these days so I can d/l all kinds of interesting stuff.

Thanks for sharing BC, just watched part 1 and will continue later on when I have some more time this evening.

Quote of part 1:
'There was no romance about this. The best way to kill someone is a bullet through the back of the head before they even knew you were coming.'

Quite a difference with the actual knights. They fought with looking each other in the face.

x6BL_Brando
07-05-2009, 10:30 AM
Quite a difference with the actual knights. They fought with looking each other in the face.

I dunno where all this chivalry nonsense originates? Victorian novels like the Morte d'Arthur?

While jousting in the lists may have started like that, you can be sure that knights would not hesitate to attack each other from back, front or side - if the opportunity arose on the battlefield .
What the code of chivalry sought to enforce was the rule of quarter, as in sparing a (noble) opponent's life if he gave up and cried "quarter".
It was meant to differentiate the "nobles" from the common foot-soldiers who would kill and then rob anyone they could lay hands on, to supplement their meagre pay. It's worth noting that the 'chivalry' was not expended towards commoners either. Hunting down fleeing soldiers and killing them from behind using the lance was considered good sport.

B

Trefle
07-05-2009, 11:34 AM
There were numerous occurences of chivalry (do not attack a plane already damaged ,do not attack when outnumbering him if you recognized who's ace plane it is and want to duel him etc.. ) .

At that time and especially before 1917 , engagements between planes were often single duels , the pilots were celebrated like heroes in the press and their combat watched by the troops below on the frontlines , aerial combat was a new aspect of war , so it was a bit glamorous . 2 bizarre machines capable of flying duelling alone in the sky without parachutes or safety , for many who were watching below , it was a reminder the old duels/joustes between nobles of the medieval era that were so popular

Guys like René Fonck (75 confirmed victories ) was the opposite of a chivalrous pilot , but for every R.Fonck , there was a Guynemer (53 victories , nicknamed knight of the sky ) who would go as lonewolf and refuse wingmen , looking for a fair fight , many German pilots were in the same frame of mind , they were like the French and perhaps other countries , encouraged to go for personal tally and made heroes/icons by the press , Guynemer was as famous as a popular musician or singer during the war

After 1917 it became another story cause thousands of planes were sent everyday over the front and losses soared , aerial war became far less "romantic" , at the end of the war 1/3 of aviators had lost their lives , Germany (11400), France (5600) and Britain(7500) lost together more than 20.000 pilots , not counting the wounded and other countries involved in this world war like USA , Canada , Italy , Russia , Austria-Hungary , Australia etc.. , so by the end of the war , aviation was nothing like chivalry or anything , like in WWII .

M_Gunz
07-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Good show though as usual I wish the people who did it could have gotten more facts straight and put more things in.

My thoughts exactly. Good in parts but lacking in a lot of substance, it needed a two-hour format to do justice to the subject.

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When they went from pistols and rifles to the synchronization gear to Fokker Tripes and THEN bring up Max Immelmann,
it's like hey what about Roland Garros and the steel wedges, the over-wing Lewis guns and the DH-2 pusher-prop with
MG in front and hey Immelmann made his name flying Eindekkers long before the Dr-I was thought of!

They wasted a lot of time showing people putting gloves on and the like, IMO. More history, less Historians please!

M_Gunz
07-05-2009, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Trefle:
Guys like René Fonck (75 confirmed victories ) was the opposite of a chivalrous pilot , but for every R.Fonck , there was a Guynemer (53 victories , nicknamed knight of the sky ) who would go as lonewolf and refuse wingmen , looking for a fair fight , many German pilots were in the same frame of mind , they were like the French and perhaps other countries , encouraged to go for personal tally and made heroes/icons by the press , Guynemer was as famous as a popular musician or singer during the war

I remember a story about Guynemer and Fonck drunk in a bar. One had stood up and proclaimed himself the best fighter pilot
in all France and also had the biggest *I won't spell it here* which he pulled out and laid on the table. The other, not to
be outdone stood up and said he was the second best fighter pilot in France and pulled his out and said his was smaller but
his pubic hairs were more neatly trimmed! That's the kind of guys they were and that's the kind of bars they hung around in!

Wild times, easy women and short life spans. And yeah there was occasional chivalry then and even later in WWII when a beaten
foe was let go or even escorted some of the way back. Not everyone is all the time heartless.

Trefle
07-05-2009, 12:11 PM
Yea , i think there were many stories like that , some myths some not , Guynemer didn't return from a mission in September 1917 , he was an "old school" pilot , whereas Fonck overcame Guynemer's record only at the end of the war (when there were far more planes in the skies ) , something like spring 1918 , so this story is probably made up by the propaganda of the time cause Guynemer was dead when Fonck began to have serious success , but it illustrates well the "spirit" of these WWI pilots IMHO , they had big egos and looked at themselves like sportsmen in competition between each other and were looked upon by the troops and civilian population as knights of the sky because they were the only one to have the priviledge of being hyped in newspaper among other reasons

Frequent_Flyer
07-05-2009, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trefle:
Guys like René Fonck (75 confirmed victories ) was the opposite of a chivalrous pilot , but for every R.Fonck , there was a Guynemer (53 victories , nicknamed knight of the sky ) who would go as lonewolf and refuse wingmen , looking for a fair fight , many German pilots were in the same frame of mind , they were like the French and perhaps other countries , encouraged to go for personal tally and made heroes/icons by the press , Guynemer was as famous as a popular musician or singer during the war

I remember a story about Guynemer and Fonck drunk in a bar. One had stood up and proclaimed himself the best fighter pilot
in all France and also had the biggest *I won't spell it here* which he pulled out and laid on the table. The other, not to
be outdone stood up and said he was the second best fighter pilot in France and pulled his out and said his was smaller but
his pubic hairs were more neatly trimmed! That's the kind of guys they were and that's the kind of bars they hung around in!

Wild times, easy women and short life spans. And yeah there was occasional chivalry then and even later in WWII when a beaten
foe was let go or even escorted some of the way back. Not everyone is all the time heartless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kind of brings a whole new meaning to the phrase " stiff competation ".

Trefle
07-05-2009, 05:00 PM
lol indeedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a short video link about some WWI "knights" i came across on youtube , taken from "the great war in the air" series , there are quite a few interesting videos to watch

German ace Boelcke :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...f0sM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQ3A1Nf0sM&feature=related)

Guynemer is killed :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O98U73UkB9s

Canadian famous ace Billy Bishop :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...p4Ao&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO4J4Kpp4Ao&feature=related)


Britain's eagles Mc Cudden and Mannock fall :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Big4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKTICmxBig4&feature=related)


USA 's ace Eddie Rickenbacker :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...00_A&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kitxZU00_A&feature=related)


British ace Albert Ball is killed :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...CcW8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbhs0IxCcW8&feature=related)


Death of famous German ace Immelmann :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Sn4c&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjuw9k-Sn4c&feature=related)

Troll2k
07-05-2009, 05:54 PM
I can not seem to find part 8.

Trefle
07-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Troll2k:
I can not seem to find part 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...0CF73A90A697&index=7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD1TF5sUJsc&feature=PlayList&p=11090CF73A90A697&index=7)
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Troll2k
07-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Thanks Trefle.

x6BL_Brando
07-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Good show though as usual I wish the people who did it could have gotten more facts straight and put more things in.

My thoughts exactly. Good in parts but lacking in a lot of substance, it needed a two-hour format to do justice to the subject.

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When they went from pistols and rifles to the synchronization gear to Fokker Tripes and THEN bring up Max Immelmann,
it's like hey what about Roland Garros and the steel wedges, the over-wing Lewis guns and the DH-2 pusher-prop with
MG in front and hey Immelmann made his name flying Eindekkers long before the Dr-I was thought of!

They wasted a lot of time showing people putting gloves on and the like, IMO. More history, less Historians please! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Garros came to my mind as well as the first man to fire a machine-gun through the blades of the prop and shoot down a few hapless German machines. It was his failure to set fire to his machine after a forced landing on the wrong side of the lines that brought the concept to Anthony Fokker's attention and caused him to work out the 'interrupter gear' that made the E types so lethal in early 1917.

But we got not much of that and, as you said, far too much of historians babbling on. And how about the Englishman talking to the (obviously educated) Frenchman on his farm. "We are here - er, nous sommes ici ...." I nearly died of embarrassment at such a piece of patronising BS http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif He might at least have attempted a French accent! LOL

As for the chivalry stuff - I think it pays to separate jingoism and tabloid propaganda from the realities of war. It looks great in post-war movies but hey, we heard the statistics for newly-arrived pilots' lifespans - eleven days. Nothing too chivalrous about that I feel.

B

M_Gunz
07-06-2009, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Trefle:
Yea , i think there were many stories like that , some myths some not , Guynemer didn't return from a mission in September 1917 , he was an "old school" pilot , whereas Fonck overcame Guynemer's record only at the end of the war (when there were far more planes in the skies ) , something like spring 1918 , so this story is probably made up by the propaganda of the time cause Guynemer was dead when Fonck began to have serious success , but it illustrates well the "spirit" of these WWI pilots IMHO , they had big egos and looked at themselves like sportsmen in competition between each other and were looked upon by the troops and civilian population as knights of the sky because they were the only one to have the priviledge of being hyped in newspaper among other reasons

As I recall, Guynemer was the first and Fonck was #2. It was a story telling of the Gallic Spirit in war, a far cry from
the kind of stories about white flag factories I've seen long since. I related that one in French class back in 1971.

M_Gunz
07-06-2009, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
Garros came to my mind as well as the first man to fire a machine-gun through the blades of the prop and shoot down a few hapless German machines. It was his failure to set fire to his machine after a forced landing on the wrong side of the lines that brought the concept to Anthony Fokker's attention and caused him to work out the 'interrupter gear' that made the E types so lethal in early 1917.

IIRC The Fokker Scourge did bring about the over-wing guns on planes like the early Nieups and even later SE-5's though also
IIRC those could be tilted up to fire at 2-seaters with higher ceilings than the poor pursuit planes. Changing ammo on those
though... get into the story of one Officer Strange said to have been caught hanging upside down from the gun when the plane
inverted which IMO is a monumental tall tale!


But we got not much of that and, as you said, far too much of historians babbling on. And how about the Englishman talking to the (obviously educated) Frenchman on his farm. "We are here - er, nous sommes ici ...." I nearly died of embarrassment at such a piece of patronising BS http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif He might at least have attempted a French accent! LOL

IMO that would only have made it worse! His French was limited is obvious, probably trying to dredge up grade school lessons.


As for the chivalry stuff - I think it pays to separate jingoism and tabloid propaganda from the realities of war. It looks great in post-war movies but hey, we heard the statistics for newly-arrived pilots' lifespans - eleven days. Nothing too chivalrous about that I feel.

B

Chivalry did happen but it was rare enough that the telling spread fast and wide. All kinds of things happen in war.
There was a true dog story about a Welsh Terrier that dragged his wounded master back into the trench. Brave dog!

Worf101
07-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Intersting, PBS showed a series on Sunday "Warbirds" that charted the transformation of the Wright Bros. craft from transport to weapon. One guy said that even the greatest fighter ace of the first war, Von Rhictofen (sp) killed at most 80 or so men. However the artillery spotters and other recon pilots were responsible for thousands of casualties.

Interesting premise.

Da Worfster

M_Gunz
07-06-2009, 01:29 PM
Early in WWI there were no trenches and the battle flowed at non-mechanized speed, but it did flow. The Germans had a
move going that was going to capture Paris relatively soon when a French recon plane spotted the whole thing and reported.
The French pulled off an emergency move of their own getting troops into position using every available means possible, a
very famous day, they stopped the advance and saved Paris and thereby the country. Trench War was born and WWI took on
that well known character all because spotting from air was so effective against troop movement speeds of the time.

And there are people who still AFAIK say that airplanes did not change the outcome of WWI.

Trefle
07-06-2009, 02:19 PM
Indeed , that was the first battle of Marne when they used taxicabs to get troops relocated on the new frontline .

I agree with you guys on recon planes , they were so important to direct artillery , they probably thought downing a recon plane was worth a couple dozens life , hence why these recon birds were prized targets by fighter pilots of both sides