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View Full Version : It's the I WANT THE P-61 Thread!



x__CRASH__x
11-15-2004, 10:40 PM
I want it! So do you, even if you don't realize it yet! So put in your 2 cents on why we must have this plane added ASAP!

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/p61/p61_large.jpg

Rebel_Yell_21
11-15-2004, 11:09 PM
I love anything with multiple engines, but this sweet thang is in my top 5 wishlist.

Full length flaperons, baby! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

x__CRASH__x
11-15-2004, 11:54 PM
I just want to help design the radar! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

P.S. I am an airborne radar operator by trade.

Esckey666
11-16-2004, 12:47 AM
Who cares about the radar, hell I don't even care if the cockpit is accurate. Just copy a b-25 pit on and I'll buy what ever cd Oleg and his boys put it on. I just want to fly it

RedDeth
11-16-2004, 12:53 AM
not interested. i want the ki-44, shiden-kai, F4U-4, P47-M, P47-N instead.

FA_Whisky
11-16-2004, 01:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i want the ki-44, shiden-kai, F4U-4, P47-M, P47-N instead <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and a P51k with 150octane fuel and overboost and a P51h

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
not interested. i want the ki-44, shiden-kai, F4U-4, P47-M, P47-N instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then start your own **** thread and stop humping my leg! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AFJ_Locust
11-16-2004, 02:50 AM
I want one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GAU-8
11-16-2004, 02:56 AM
BUMP UMP

WUAF_Badsight
11-16-2004, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
not interested. i want the ki-44, shiden-kai, F4U-4, P47-M, P47-N instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we got enough fighters

more G/A baby ! , wouldnt the BlackWidow be so hella cool

WOLFMondo
11-16-2004, 03:08 AM
The P61 might be cool but I'd prefer to see more torpedo bombers, P47 N's, Fireflys, Swordfishes, more japanese planes...planes that made a difference.

stansdds
11-16-2004, 03:55 AM
The P-61 would be nice, but without operating radar it is a castrated night fighter. Another option would be to add radar to the A-20 and make it a P-70. The rear gunner position and fuselage model would need to be altered to look correct.

Diablo310th
11-16-2004, 06:18 AM
418thNFS=Diablo= wants it. Give me my Black Widow, Havoc and Lightning and look out Nippon bombers.

Mashie_Nibblick
11-16-2004, 06:20 AM
I want one too. And a Stingbag. And an Albacore in a pear tree.

mortoma
11-16-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
not interested. i want the ki-44, shiden-kai, F4U-4, P47-M, P47-N instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we got enough fighters

more G/A baby ! , wouldnt the BlackWidow be so hella cool <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually we don't have enough Japanese fighters, or Japanese anything for that matter. I'd kinda like to fly the George.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-16-2004, 09:15 AM
What was the true radar detection range of the P61? If it was more than 3-4km I can see that it will be used as some sort of AWACS plane especially in online co-op.

Then people will start another flame war here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Another question, the P61 does have a dorsal turret right? Just wonder how the aiming will be modeled...

p1ngu666
11-16-2004, 09:27 AM
p61 was pretty buggy and stuff :\
top turret was often locked to fire forwards, turnin it would unstable plane. (later fixed?)

radar could depend on height etc, dont think itll have radar if its flyable tbh

Lucky_Skunk
11-16-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
stop humping my legā"ž¢! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fixed.

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 01:34 PM
Well I guess you all know that I want this plane FLYABLE please. (with or without any form of RADAR - no matter how rudimentary - don't care.)

"What was the true radar detection range of the P61? If it was more than 3-4km I can see that it will be used as some sort of AWACS plane especially in online co-op."

Here are some RADAR details. (then my comments on them afterward.)

Production SCR-720A radars had a scanning radio transmitter mounted in the nose of the aircraft with a range of almost 5 miles in the AI mode. The SCR-720A could also be used as an airborne beacon or homing service, a navigational aid and for operations in conjunction with interrogator-responder (IFF) equipment. The radar operator in the P-61 would locate and track the target and once within range, the pilot would close for the kill using a scope mounted in the center of his instrument panel. The upper turret on the P-61 could be controlled and fired by any member of the three-man crew. The RO could traverse the turret 180 degrees to fire on targets approaching from the rear or elevate the guns 90 degrees to engage targets above the P-61. The forward firing cannon, however, could only be fired by the pilot.

The range stated of 'almost five miles' is in my research, highly subjective to a few things. The two most important factors are weather, and even more important was the level of skill of the operator. It was quite common to find a target with the RADAR but the ROI stated that it had to be VISUALLY identified as a BANDIT (rather than a mere BOGIE) before you could shoot. Despite the use of IFF gear friendly attacks were common enough.

Furthermore; despite what was said above it was more common for the pilot to never look at the RADAR scope, in his instrument panel. At the time it was believed that the pilot had enough to do just flying the plane and the extra workload was gladly offloaded to the RO in the rear of the plane.

I will never be a modeler. (I would certainly like to learn, but I don't think I could ever develop the skill needed.) But I would think that the plane would be possible. Late production P-61A's and Early production P-61B's did not have the turret, or the gunner crew person position, and would thus be easier to model I would think (one less cockpit position to create? Yes!). Turrets were reintroduced in the P-61B-15 and after production block.

Most often the reason given for this temporary deletion of the turret and the crew position is due to buffeting during flight when the guns of the turret are in certain positions. However, operational crews NEVER had any difficulty with this, and at least one source I have states that the real reason was that the turrets were scarce and were in given a higher priority for their installation on B-29's. When they were more plentiful they appeared again on P-61's. (from Northrop P-61 Black Widow Authors; Pape and Campbell page 33)

"Another question, the P61 does have a dorsal turret right? Just wonder how the aiming will be modeled... "

It is the same turret as on the B-29. If that can (and apparently already has been modeled) I would assume it would be modeled the same way.

Planeeater said he'd have a look at anything I could show him. I set up an ftp site with darn near everything I have just for him, but so far not a peek. I sure hope he looks.

Like I said I'm no modeler, but I see no reason it could not be modeled. If the RADAR is the reason, then make it without the RADAR. There are lots of devices (important gauges even) that are not modeled on some planes in the game.

Love it! My 2 cents. (again)

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 02:29 PM
Further on the RADAR

Freq/Wavelength: 3 GHz/10 cm
Peak Power: 150 kW
PRF: 1575 pps
Pulse Length: 0.75 microsec
Max range: 10 miles
RAF Reference AI Mk 10/ARI 5570
US Reference SCR-720

Mosquito NF XVII/XIX/30/36
Meteor NF Mk 11/13
Vampire NF Mk 10
Venom NF Mk 2
Meteor NF 17 had bull nose to fit Mk VII and X

AStotzer
11-16-2004, 02:38 PM
I want one TOO!!

1) Because Waldo knows way too much about them!

2) AND I made a plastic model of one of these when I was about 10 years old.

2 VERY good reasons! Now, get to it!!

johann63
11-16-2004, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I want it! So do you, even if you don't realize it yet! So put in your 2 cents on why we must have this plane added ASAP!

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/p61/p61_large.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Than I want this to try to shoot your *** down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki45-i.jpg

http://user.chollian.net/~dragonff/air/KI45.jpg

or this

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki46-i.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 03:35 PM
Why YOU should want the P-61 Black Widow.

In this tale from Ie Shima, the 548 flies P-61's. The 318 P47N (That's "N"!).

The 548th had an officers club that was frequented by the CO and his friends. Besides enjoying the liquor of the club the men of the 318th emjoyed poking fun at the 548th, using such snide remarks as "bomber pilots". Col. Dave Curtiss, CO of the Black Widow boys, eventually became fed up with this continuos ribbing and annnounced that he could outdo Mcafee and his P-47N with his trusty P-61.

Colonel Curtiss told the story this way.

"His response was to offer to load up the guns, and we'll go up and have it out."
"Though alcohol was an active ingredient in the situation, reason eventually prevailed. His bet with me was $700 to be decided by superiority in two of three competitions.

1. Shortest takeoff roll.
2. Top speed in level flight, to be done on the ocean to preclude cheating by diving.
3. Simulated air to air combat with gun cameras for documentation."

"In due time the contest started. His Jug was stripped of all reasonably removable weight, including guns and armor plate; I don't know what else. I reduced my ammo load to 20 rounds of 20mm. The word had gotten around. A crowd of many hundreds had collected and many thousands of dollars were to change owners. The two aircraft lined up wingtip to wingtip."

"He ran the power up to full bore with water injection (2,800 hp) and released the brakes. As the aircraft moved foreward the tailwheel came up, then back down as the main gear lifted off. He literally hung on the prop, with the tail wheel rolling after the main gear lifted clear. I was impressed (as were many spectators who told me later they figured then that was over except the pay off)."

"My turn. Water injection (2 x 2,250 hp) and released the brakes. When the air speed showed 75 mph, I started the flaps down and lifted the nose to a steep climbing altitude. I had beaten him by 75 yards."

"In level flight we lined up again, tip-to-tip. At his nod we each turned 90 degrees in opposite directions; a minute later we each turned 180 degrees to come at each other near head on. It had been agreed that we would break as we passed - then everything goes. Both of us turned as hard as we could, for a few moments it looked questionable. Then the greater maneuverability of the Black Widow began to show; I moved inexorably toward his tail. He dove sharply, but I remained above him, height is nearly always an advantage. Eventually I was right behind his tail, my camera whirling. 'Best two out of three' was his radio call.

"Back up again we went and again we squared away. This time I pitched up sharply as we broke. In less than one turn I was grinning through my sights at an umcomfortably rotated face, "Let's go home!"

"I had frames of gun film with nothing but Jug in them. Several claimed they could recognize the Colonel's panic filled face. They never came to our club again."

Sir.Robin-1337
11-16-2004, 03:49 PM
No thanks.. the P-51D does it all better on only 1 engine.

Snootles
11-16-2004, 04:23 PM
The P-61 sure would be a great machine to fly. It's a big heavy fighter with amazing roll rate, impressive versatility ("B" version could carry up to 6,400 lbs of bombs), and awesome old-fashioned RADAR.

Check this link for info on how the SCR-720 (in the guise of the AI.Mk. X) worked and what the interface looked like. SCR-720/AI Mk. X (http://website.lineone.net/~norman.groom/AI_MKX.htm)

lkemling
11-16-2004, 05:05 PM
GIMMECANIHAVEIWANT!!!

Wert4562
11-16-2004, 05:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
p61 was pretty buggy and stuff :\
top turret was often locked to fire forwards, turnin it would unstable plane. (later fixed?)

radar could depend on height etc, dont think itll have radar if its flyable tbh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Sure it was fixed.


They removed it!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Copperhead310th
11-16-2004, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Well I guess you all know that I want this plane FLYABLE please. (with or without any form of RADAR - no matter how rudimentary - don't care.)

"What was the true radar detection range of the P61? If it was more than 3-4km I can see that it will be used as some sort of AWACS plane especially in online co-op."

Here are some RADAR details. (then my comments on them afterward.)

Production SCR-720A radars had a scanning radio transmitter mounted in the nose of the aircraft with a range of almost 5 miles in the AI mode. The SCR-720A could also be used as an airborne beacon or homing service, a navigational aid and for operations in conjunction with interrogator-responder (IFF) equipment. The radar operator in the P-61 would locate and track the target and once within range, the pilot would close for the kill using a scope mounted in the center of his instrument panel. The upper turret on the P-61 could be controlled and fired by any member of the three-man crew. The RO could traverse the turret 180 degrees to fire on targets approaching from the rear or elevate the guns 90 degrees to engage targets above the P-61. The forward firing cannon, however, could only be fired by the pilot.

The range stated of 'almost five miles' is in my research, highly subjective to a few things. The two most important factors are weather, and even more important was the level of skill of the operator. It was quite common to find a target with the RADAR but the ROI stated that it had to be VISUALLY identified as a BANDIT (rather than a mere BOGIE) before you could shoot. Despite the use of IFF gear friendly attacks were common enough.

Furthermore; despite what was said above it was more common for the pilot to never look at the RADAR scope, in his instrument panel. At the time it was believed that the pilot had enough to do just flying the plane and the extra workload was gladly offloaded to the RO in the rear of the plane.

I will never be a modeler. (I would certainly like to learn, but I don't think I could ever develop the skill needed.) But I would think that the plane would be possible. Late production P-61A's and Early production P-61B's did not have the turret, or the gunner crew person position, and would thus be easier to model I would think (one less cockpit position to create? Yes!). Turrets were reintroduced in the P-61B-15 and after production block.

Most often the reason given for this temporary deletion of the turret and the crew position is due to buffeting during flight when the guns of the turret are in certain positions. However, operational crews NEVER had any difficulty with this, and at least one source I have states that the real reason was that the turrets were scarce and were in given a higher priority for their installation on B-29's. When they were more plentiful they appeared again on P-61's. (from Northrop P-61 Black Widow Authors; Pape and Campbell page 33)

"Another question, the P61 does have a dorsal turret right? Just wonder how the aiming will be modeled... "

It is the same turret as on the B-29. If that can (and apparently already has been modeled) I would assume it would be modeled the same way.

Planeeater said he'd have a look at anything I could show him. I set up an ftp site with darn near everything I have just for him, but so far not a peek. I sure hope he looks.

Like I said I'm no modeler, but I see no reason it could not be modeled. If the RADAR is the reason, then make it without the RADAR. There are lots of devices (important gauges even) that are not modeled on some planes in the game.

Love it! My 2 cents. (again) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah i sent Plane Eater a Large file my self a looong time ago. As far as i Know she's DONE for AI....now what we asa group need to do is get all the info on the SCR-720A. Oleg has said once before he would be open to trying to get it working IF enogh data could be supplied on how it actually worked. With as many active duty & retierd US milltary ppl we have around here you'ld think they would have or could obtain that kind of information. i'm sure it's long been declassified. Crash have you been able to turn up any operational data on the SCR-720A? does the USN even retain that kind of information on early radar units?

Copperhead310th
11-16-2004, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann63:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I want it! So do you, even if you don't realize it yet! So put in your 2 cents on why we must have this plane added ASAP!

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/p61/p61_large.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Than I want this to try to shoot your *** down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki45-i.jpg

http://user.chollian.net/~dragonff/air/KI45.jpg

or this

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki46-i.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't sing it! Bring it riceboy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Black Widow rules Nick drules. HAHAHa

naaaa i actulally like the Nick a lot. very coo design. but it would be intersting to see these to lock up. My money is on my baby though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 07:31 PM
Waldo: Fantastic data! From the specifications you give I can extrapolate a guess on how the radar would perfomr in the air. What I really need is a picture of the radar station. Questions I need to answer are: What scope did the operator have, and what control box was used? If I can find pics of those things, I think we can develop a winner. Radar from the day was rudimentry. It was done on CRT osciliscopes and the like. So it won't be difficult for me to develop a pretty good idea on how it would have been operated.

Here is a caveat: I am an airborne radar operator and technician for the Navy. I'm not an engineer. So I can't geek the whole thing out to satisfy and engineer. My whole goal is to design a radar that the average IL-2 pilot could use to find a target in the dead of night. It won't be micky mouse. It won't be a stupid looking Hollywood radar with bleeps and dots. It will be as close as I could desing it to the actual unit, but taking out some of the constant tweaking that would have been necessary with a set from that era.

Copperhead, the Air Force flew the P-61. Not the Navy. But I doubt they would have any easily accessable documentation.

Snootles
11-16-2004, 07:34 PM
Check my link. The British used the same radar as the AI.Mk. X; the link is a British enthusiast who reconstructed a simulator unit for one. He's also done an AI.Mk. IV, ASV.Mk. II, and a lot of avionics for a Lancaster mock-up.

If you explained to him what you were doing and what you needed, I'm sure he would provide more detailed information.

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 07:50 PM
Whoa! Missed the link! Checking now.

BM357_Raven
11-16-2004, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I want it! So do you, even if you don't realize it yet! So put in your 2 cents on why we must have this plane added ASAP!

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/p61/p61_large.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answer: Because it's a bad mamma jamma..

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 08:14 PM
Crash check you r PM I sent you something yesterday... or the day before.

I will give you access to the ftp site I setup for Planeeater, in the mext PM..

I am working on the manual for the SCR-720A (and B and C)

I have asked several museums for help now. And am awaiting their replies.

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 08:22 PM
Good stuff. But the indicators are, for the most part, deduced. I did a little Googling, and found that Fort Gordon has a signals museum that apparently either has a lot of vintage SCR-720 parts, or pictures of the parts. Unfortunately, the links to thos pictures aren't working. So when I get home from work tonight I plan on e-mailing the administrator to see if he can set me up with pics of the system.

Before I start losing sleep over thoughts of designing a radar system for PF, is this something we could actually get put into the game, or is this just a wet dream from a few people?

DDad
11-16-2004, 08:32 PM
Heres another P-61 link P-61 rememberances (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/9601/7thaf.html)

Hope you enjoy- BTW he mentions the farthest they picked up a target was 19 miles- and it was a B-29

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 08:49 PM
Here are a couple of pictures of the interior. I don't see a Pilot repeater scope in the P-61B's cockpit.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-61/P-61Bcockpitfront.gif

I got this pic from this fantastic page: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-61.html

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 08:55 PM
Waldo, were the British Mark VIII and the American SCR-720 the same? I see that the Mark X is supposed to be about the same from the link that Snootles put up, but it mentions the Mk VIII, which I foound a couple of pics for here: http://www.malmesbury-memories.co.uk/wartimeindex1.html

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 09:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DDad:
Heres another P-61 link http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/9601/7thaf.html

Hope you enjoy- BTW he mentions the farthest they picked up a target was 19 miles- and it was a B-29 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the link. It gives an e-mail to an actual P-61 pilot. If we get green lighted for this project, I may drop him a line to see if I can download his thoughts on the radar, and maybe get a contact for an actual RO that may be available (with a SCR-720 manual stuffed in a chest somewhere! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif )

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 09:08 PM
No Mark VIII and X are not the same.

AI Mark VIII continued to be the mainstay of night-fighters throughout 1943 and 1944 only being superseded by the American developed SCR720 set, which used similar technology to the Mark VIII, but had twin scopes and was considered less susceptible to enemy jamming. This was adopted in the UK as AI Mark X.

from the site specificaly ..

http://www.malmesbury-memories.co.uk/wartimeindex1.html

I already wrote the P-61 Veteran a day or so ago. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 09:26 PM
Hey Waldo! Got 20 bucks?

http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/P61.html

VMF223_Smitty
11-16-2004, 09:37 PM
I don't want it. You can have it.

Waldo.Pepper
11-16-2004, 09:42 PM
Dear Crash

Don't need it. Already got it check the ftp please.

x__CRASH__x
11-16-2004, 10:41 PM
As soon as I get home! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

x__CRASH__x
11-17-2004, 03:31 PM
bump

Waldo.Pepper
11-17-2004, 05:14 PM
The SCR-720 and the British AI Mk X RADAR is the same thing..

So says this website and other sources.

http://website.lineone.net/~norman.groom/AI_MKX.htm

With the help of a friend in England I am proud to present the following wmv file of the AI MK X in action.

To view the file right click it and save to desktop.

It is on my ftp site. (which is dependant upon me keeping a computer turned on). Therefore it will not be up forever. If some kind sole can donate 1 measly meg on their website that would be great. (Incredibly I have no webspace! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

ftp://radar:radar@207.6.216.24/

LH screen Azimuth/Elevation display.
RH screen is RH Range/Azimuth tube showing the Range Marker Bar.

These two screens are in the P-61 in the RO seat as well.

HAHAHAHAHA! Enjoy all!

Mozzie_21
11-18-2004, 03:32 PM
I was thinking, the other aspect of night fighting is the visual intercept. While radar was used to guide one plane to its intercept the final targeting, from everything that I have read, was performed with the eyes.

If we were to have a night fighter simulator it would have to properly model the eye's response to darkness instead of just approximating night time to pitch black darkenss.