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Celeon999
04-19-2005, 01:03 PM
All hands to battlestations ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Never thought this could be.

A man from bavaria the birthplace of national socialism , son of a nazi party member and former member of the hitler youth becomes pope. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What a hard job for a man who is from a country with the biggest atheist community in europe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Oberst.Kessler
04-19-2005, 01:10 PM
Hahah, thats a fact! The new Pope is indeed a Son of a Nazi Party member, and was in the Hitlerjugend...But who wasnt in those days!... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif But what the hell, the pope in WWII didnt also stop the nazi's from taking away jews in Rome...

S VIIC_41
04-19-2005, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But what the hell, the pope in WWII didnt also stop the nazi's from taking away jews in Rome... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yeah, that was terrible.

All the Pope had to do was order it not to happen and it wouldn't have happened.

Mussolini and Hitler would have been overruled by the Pope.

Pius was omnipotent you know. There wouldn't have been any backlash or assassination at all if he'd tried to go against fascist Europe... nope.

malkuth
04-19-2005, 01:30 PM
Considering his age.. Who wouldnt be the son of a Nazi party member? And as for the Hitler Youth, If I rember correctly all kids had to be part of that.

quillan
04-19-2005, 01:33 PM
Heh. I know a woman whose godfather was Hermann Goering. It apparently was a common thing in pre-war Germany.

Lovo_Kasistan
04-19-2005, 01:34 PM
Bavaria Benny... what comes next, Uruguay Urban? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

archer49d
04-19-2005, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malkuth:
Considering his age.. Who wouldnt be the son of a Nazi party member? And as for the Hitler Youth, If I rember correctly all kids had to be part of that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me just say that in those days, if you lived in Germany, you were either the son/daughter of a Nazi supporter, or someone being persecuted by the Nazis, there was no "middle-road".

Celeon999
04-19-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But what the hell, the pope in WWII didnt also stop the nazi's from taking away jews in Rome... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the Vatikan supported the nazis even after the war.

They helped SS Members and other high ranking nazis to escape , giving them new identitys , money and any other possible support in their escape.

One of them was Bishop Alois Hudal. He was a very good friend of Pope Pius.

Theres no doubt today that Pius himself was a secret supporter of the nazis.

There are also many rumors around about O.D.E.S.S.A. (O)rganisation (d)er (e)hemaligen (SS) (A)ngeh√¬∂rigen

Organisation of the former SS Members.

Its said that they are giving former nazis shelter from Israely Spys which are searching for them and that they support the palestinians with weapons and money.

Its also said that they have close ties to people with high influence in the vatikan and that their primary goal is the establishing of the fourth Reich one day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But heh these are just rumors right ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WolfK33
04-19-2005, 02:42 PM
Oh yes, and if you take away the letters "R", "t", "g", "e" and "r" from Ratzinger‚¬īs name, what‚¬īs left?

azin !!!

Now take the "n" away from the end and move it to the front!!

That‚¬īs the proof !!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

matkal80
04-19-2005, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeon999:


Most of the Vatikan supported the nazis even after the war.

They helped SS Members and other high ranking nazis to escape , giving them new identitys , money and any other possible support in their escape.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, yeah and Jesus had affair with Mary Magdalene. LOL, you read too many books.
BTW It was Americans not Vatican who helped many nazis to hide in USA.

Xerx790
04-19-2005, 02:51 PM
Another delusional man called the Pope who thinks he is God's vicor on earth?

Give me a break, where is Martin Luther at when you need him? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

As you can tell, I'm Protestant and do not believe in all that lavious, pomp and circumstance.

They even re-wrote the Bible to suit the Church for mankinds personal selves.

What a cow load.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jesus had affair with Mary Magdalene <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, historically it was common almost law to be married as a Jewish rabbi as He was. maybe he did not have any kids, but the law would have compelled him to be married.

She is no the hoar every one confuses with the other mary. This was re written again by a Roman caesar to make Jesus look even more divine by not knowing a womans love - it was removed from the Bible.

He had to know all of mankinds emotions in order to be a perfect sacrifice. He knew love, pain, hunger, thirst, everything that is human.

Mary Magdalene is very much present in many themes, as if she was married to Him. But who knows? the bible has been perverted by man ever since the Roman Empire took it on as a religion and re wrote the thing. Yeah, the Roman Catholic. and the Pope, I mean Caesar?

OK Flame mein arsche! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

malkuth
04-19-2005, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by matkal80:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeon999:


Most of the Vatikan supported the nazis even after the war.

They helped SS Members and other high ranking nazis to escape , giving them new identitys , money and any other possible support in their escape.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, yeah and Jesus had affair with Mary Magdalene. LOL, you read too many books.
BTW It was Americans not Vatican who helped many nazis to hide in USA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I thought the Educational System In the States was bad...

Bockholt
04-19-2005, 03:26 PM
It is wonderful news for Conspiracy theorists & should keep the Internet & lunatic asylums in business for many a year! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Demonik666
04-19-2005, 03:46 PM
Celeon999,

first of let me mention that I am German and catholic (Not by choice)...yeah, how bad can it get?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )
and I couldn't care less about the pope, the church and all it represents. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by the catholic church. Furthermore, it represents beliefs and views of an era long gone and totally out of place in our times. I almost had to throw up, when John Paul II went to AIDS ridden-Africa, preaching about the sin of using condoms. The man should have been shot for that ignorant crime. We'd be better off without the catholic church.

For that matter, the world would probably be better off without religion altogether -look at current events: Ireland, Islam, etc.

However, I find your post insulting. First off, are you saying that anyone born in Bavaria is a Nazi, just because it's the birthplace of national socialism?

Secondly: Yeah he's German. So what! Doesn't matter where the pope comes from. They are all old backward, ignorant farts anyway. If we have to have a pope, let it be someone younger, who's got an open mind and is willing to go with the times. Of course, he'd probably die within 2 months of election...from "heart failure"

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demonik666:
Celeon999,

first of let me mention that I am German and catholic (Not by choice)...yeah, how bad can it get?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )
and I couldn't care less about the pope, the church and all it represents. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by the catholic church. Furthermore, it represents beliefs and views of an era long gone and totally out of place in our times. I almost had to throw up, when John Paul II went to AIDS ridden-Africa, preaching about the sin of using condoms. The man should have been shot for that ignorant crime. We'd be better off without the catholic church.

For that matter, the world would probably be better off without religion altogether -look at current events: Ireland, Islam, etc.

However, I find your post insulting. First off, are you saying that anyone born in Bavaria is a Nazi, just because it's the birthplace of national socialism?

Secondly: Yeah he's German. So what! Doesn't matter where the pope comes from. They are all old backward, ignorant farts anyway. If we have to have a pope, let it be someone younger, who's got an open mind and is willing to go with the times. Of course, he'd probably die within 2 months of election...from "heart failure" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I am English and a Protestant by birth. This is not amusing in the slightest, and the place for this kind of 'discussion' is not on this board

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeon999:
A man from bavaria the birthplace of national socialism , son of a nazi party member and former member of the hitler youth becomes pope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah. The conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this one.

Oh, and just a minor nitpicks - technically, I think Austria (Braunau am Inn to be exact) is the Birthplace of National Socialism, or at least it's Hitler's birthplace.

Polacco
04-19-2005, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>first of let me mention that I am German and catholic (Not by choice)...yeah, how bad can it get?! )
and I couldn't care less about the pope, the church and all it represents. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by the catholic church. Furthermore, it represents beliefs and views of an era long gone and totally out of place in our times. I almost had to throw up, when John Paul II went to AIDS ridden-Africa, preaching about the sin of using condoms. The man should have been shot for that ignorant crime. We'd be better off without the catholic church.

For that matter, the world would probably be better off without religion altogether -look at current events: Ireland, Islam, etc.

However, I find your post insulting. First off, are you saying that anyone born in Bavaria is a Nazi, just because it's the birthplace of national socialism?

Secondly: Yeah he's German. So what! Doesn't matter where the pope comes from. They are all old backward, ignorant farts anyway. If we have to have a pope, let it be someone younger, who's got an open mind and is willing to go with the times. Of course, he'd probably die within 2 months of election...from "heart failure" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, you talk about ignoance, take a look in the mirror.

John Paul II preached life and family values. If Africans followed what the pope said, they wouldn't screw everything that moves and spread the disease. From what you're saying, they ignored all the teachings, but the part about not wearing condoms, yeap, good idea. You have to know a bit about what the man preached before forming an opinion about him.

As for the world being better off without religion. Maybe you didn't notice, but all out laws, and hence our society is based on the Bible. You know, this thou shall not kill, steal...etc, yeah it's from the Bible.

As for (other) people implying he was a nazi, that's just ignorant beyond belief.

As for your last paragraph, you know, the most ignorant one. Maybe you should know or try to understand what these "old farts" really preach. I also don't agree with everyhting they say, but at least i know what they are trying to say instead of blasting them without knowing the facts. Typical of the left, you want your opinin to be respected, but you disrespect an opionion of someone you disagree with, in this case know nothing about.

I mean, I'm sure that you know nothing of the new pope anyways. You don't know that he used to be very liberal and why he changed. You don't know that he fought to keep the catholic abortion counsellors in germany open because he thought they might actually avert abortions. The pope is there to preach the religion and to hold the catholic values. That might involve decisions you might not like, but it doesn't give you the right to insult them and call them ignorant.

Thank you

Demonik666
04-19-2005, 04:26 PM
You're welcome!

And btw: I understand what you are saying: the pope is holier than thou, but as for Africans... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Polacco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>first of let me mention that I am German and catholic (Not by choice)...yeah, how bad can it get?! )
and I couldn't care less about the pope, the church and all it represents. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by the catholic church. Furthermore, it represents beliefs and views of an era long gone and totally out of place in our times. I almost had to throw up, when John Paul II went to AIDS ridden-Africa, preaching about the sin of using condoms. The man should have been shot for that ignorant crime. We'd be better off without the catholic church.

For that matter, the world would probably be better off without religion altogether -look at current events: Ireland, Islam, etc.

However, I find your post insulting. First off, are you saying that anyone born in Bavaria is a Nazi, just because it's the birthplace of national socialism?

Secondly: Yeah he's German. So what! Doesn't matter where the pope comes from. They are all old backward, ignorant farts anyway. If we have to have a pope, let it be someone younger, who's got an open mind and is willing to go with the times. Of course, he'd probably die within 2 months of election...from "heart failure" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, you talk about ignoance, take a look in the mirror.

John Paul II preached life and family values. If Africans followed what the pope said, they wouldn't screw everything that moves and spread the disease. From what you're saying, they ignored all the teachings, but the part about not wearing condoms, yeap, good idea. You have to know a bit about what the man preached before forming an opinion about him.

As for the world being better off without religion. Maybe you didn't notice, but all out laws, and hence our society is based on the Bible. You know, this thou shall not kill, steal...etc, yeah it's from the Bible.

As for (other) people implying he was a nazi, that's just ignorant beyond belief.

As for your last paragraph, you know, the most ignorant one. Maybe you should know or try to understand what these "old farts" really preach. I also don't agree with everyhting they say, but at least i know what they are trying to say instead of blasting them without knowing the facts. Typical of the left, you want your opinin to be respected, but you disrespect an opionion of someone you disagree with, in this case know nothing about.

I mean, I'm sure that you know nothing of the new pope anyways. You don't know that he used to be very liberal and why he changed. You don't know that he fought to keep the catholic abortion counsellors in germany open because he thought they might actually avert abortions. The pope is there to preach the religion and to hold the catholic values. That might involve decisions you might not like, but it doesn't give you the right to insult them and call them ignorant.

Thank you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people take a great deal of comfort from their faith, it would be inappropriate in the extreme to rubbish that on this board.

Twelvefield
04-19-2005, 04:31 PM
From my experience, I have spent some time in Rome, and some in the Vatican, studying the art.

While the Roman Catholic Church is not for everyone, it does mean a lot to many people.

The Church is certainly far from perfect, and it definitely has a chequered history, but the core of the Church, as is the core of any moral belief is to try to be a force for good (and here I recieve the "Award For Summarizing 2,000 years of Western Civilization in 25 Words Or Less")

The Pope should be the Voice of God, but whether he is or not depends a lot on your faith and the faith of the Pope as well. Some Popes made decisions that we now regret. Other Popes have tried to rectify those decisions. Sounds to me like just about any human enterprise that we've had since Adam and Eve took up gardening.

The selection process for the Pope seems more rational to me than the selection of, say, a board of dirctors . It doesn't mean the process will seem perfect to everyone, and there are a lot of things that go on that the general public is simply unaware of.

One thing I can say for certain, is that this is a time of joy for Catholics. Wouldn't it be better to celebrate than to be a wet blanket? Wouldn't you rather have people be happy for you, if you had something to celebrate? Would it be too much to ask to be at least respectful?

There is a tremendous beauty in what is now taking place in Rome - please try to see that. Maybe tomorrow, the nay-sayers will be proven right, and the world will flush itself down the toilet. Today, though, we celebrate.

Cardinal Ratzinger got a new job in a nice city, a more important tile, and a great new apartment! What a deal!

Twelvefield
04-19-2005, 04:34 PM
I should add, though, a Canadian Pope would have really rocked! Free beer and back-bacon to all Catholics, and a jar of maple syrup to anyone who wants to convert!

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twelvefield:
Cardinal Ratzinger got a new job in a nice city, a more important tile, and a great new apartment! What a deal! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, but you missed out the fact that Cardinal Ratzinger is almost certainly a certifiable nutcase.

Demonik666
04-19-2005, 04:37 PM
Well, like I said, I am Catholic and my upbringing is such. I've read the bible and I know what the church stands for, I asure you. This being the case, I think I have a right to state my opinion about my confession. However, I agree that some statements I made are rather strong, so I'll apologies, if I stepped on peoples toes.

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twelvefield:
Cardinal Ratzinger got a new job in a nice city, a more important tile, and a great new apartment! What a deal! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, but you missed out the fact that Cardinal Ratzinger is almost certainly a certifiable nutcase. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't think that this is in danger of developing into another 'Brits v.Americans'debate then?

Lovo_Kasistan
04-19-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barracus0411:
You don't think that this is in danger of developing into another 'Brits v.Americans'debate then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who has won the last round? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demonik666:
Well, like I said, I am Catholic and my upbringing is such. I've read the bible and I know what the church stands for, I asure you. This being the case, I think I have a right to state my opinion about my confession. However, I agree that some statements I made are rather strong, so I'll apologies, if I stepped on peoples toes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not as strong as the ones to which you reacted.

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lovo_Kasistan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barracus0411:
You don't think that this is in danger of developing into another 'Brits v.Americans'debate then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who has won the last round? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I lost interest it had divided into about 3 seperate debates - only one of any value

Villicus
04-19-2005, 04:50 PM
He is the enemy of all the ignorant conspiracy loons http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif because he is an intellectual giant who stands for truth that is objective. The disciples of relativism (shallow thinkers) are now wailing and moaning because he is Pope. How refreshing nowadays to have a person who stands up for truth and is unphased by all the gibberish that has been thrown at the Church. In 2000 years the whining and attacks haven't hurt the Church yet. Some people never learn.

PsychoFritz
04-19-2005, 04:50 PM
Here is an excerpt from a writing about the Pope Pius XII...written by a jew. I suggest reading the entire thing here.

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalin.htm

The whole idea about the Pope being a nazi and not doing enough was started by a european communist. You will find that the Jews have a vastly different view of Pius XII. I'm not catholic...I'm Lutheran but I can't stand seeing history being rewritten by communists with an agenda.

"On the day of Pius XII's death in 1958, Golda Meir, Israel's Foreign Minister, cabled the following message of condolence to the Vatican: "We share in the grief of humanity‚‚ā¨¬¶When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace." Before beginning a concert of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Leonard Bernstein called for a minute of silence "for the passing of a very great man, Pope Pius XII."

"Similar sentiments were expressed in the many tributes and eulogies for Pius by numerous rabbis and Jewish communal leaders, as well as by most of the Israeli press, several of whose readers suggested in open letters that a "Pope Pius XII Forest" be planted in the hills of Judea "in order to perpetuate fittingly the humane services rendered by the late pontiff to European Jewry." During and for close to two decades after World War II, Jewish praise and gratitude for Pius XII's efforts on behalf of European Jewry were virtually unanimous. Indeed, as Pinchas Lapide has so aptly stated: "No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews." Because of Pius XII's exemplary humanity toward European Jewry, no other Pope has earned such gratitude from the Jewish people."

Barracus0411
04-19-2005, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsychoFritz:
Here is an excerpt from a writing about the Pope Pius XII...written by a jew. I suggest reading the entire thing here.

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalin.htm

The whole idea about the Pope being a nazi and not doing enough was started by a european communist. You will find that the Jews have a vastly different view of Pius XII. I'm not catholic...I'm Lutheran but I can't stand seeing history being rewritten by communists with an agenda.

"On the day of Pius XII's death in 1958, Golda Meir, Israel's Foreign Minister, cabled the following message of condolence to the Vatican: "We share in the grief of humanity‚‚ā¨¬¶When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace." Before beginning a concert of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Leonard Bernstein called for a minute of silence "for the passing of a very great man, Pope Pius XII."

"Similar sentiments were expressed in the many tributes and eulogies for Pius by numerous rabbis and Jewish communal leaders, as well as by most of the Israeli press, several of whose readers suggested in open letters that a "Pope Pius XII Forest" be planted in the hills of Judea "in order to perpetuate fittingly the humane services rendered by the late pontiff to European Jewry." During and for close to two decades after World War II, Jewish praise and gratitude for Pius XII's efforts on behalf of European Jewry were virtually unanimous. Indeed, as Pinchas Lapide has so aptly stated: "No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews." Because of Pius XII's exemplary humanity toward European Jewry, no other Pope has earned such gratitude from the Jewish people." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont rise to it, theres no need

Villicus
04-19-2005, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oberst.Kessler:
Hahah, thats a fact! The new Pope is indeed a Son of a Nazi Party member, and was in the Hitlerjugend...But who wasnt in those days!... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif But what the hell, the pope in WWII didnt also stop the nazi's from taking away jews in Rome... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes he did. Thousands were saved. If he did nothing, why did the Chief Rabbi in Rome convert to Catholocism after the war?

Daxos1942
04-19-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeon999:
very good friend of Pope Pius.

Theres no doubt today that Pius himself was a secret supporter of the nazis.

There are also many rumors around about O.D.E.S.S.A. (O)rganisation (d)er (e)hemaligen (SS) (A)ngeh√¬∂rigen

Organisation of the former SS Members.

Its said that they are giving former nazis shelter from Israely Spys which are searching for them and that they support the palestinians with weapons and money.

Its also said that they have close ties to people with high influence in the vatikan and that their primary goal is the establishing of the fourth Reich one day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But heh these are just rumors right ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To my knowledge, Odessa means journey, voyage, (odyssey) from the Greek, and was a city founded by Catherine the Great.

Take it from someone who spent a considerable amount of time in his youth with an ex SS field grade officer (my uncle), and attended many parties with him with other ex German field grade and general officers, in Buenos Aires, I am afraid that like The Boys from Brazil your O.D.E.S.S.A. is just a figment of someone's imagination.

As to there having been a lot more Nazi, Fascist, etc. sympathizers than anyone ever cared to admit, that I agree with.

Peron was definitely one of them. But, having also been a general himself, he knew quality when he saw it. He solicited and got help from many german WWII veterans to totally restructure and improve the Argentinian armed forces, general staff, and military academies. He even copied the goose step, the helmets and the uniforms style and headgear, although not the german uniform colors.

As archer49d already said, back in the 1930s, specially in Europe, you were either a Nazi or a Communist, and many chose the former.

Ironically, the city of Odessa had always been a very tolerant and cosmopolitan city, with an international flavor. Residents of Odessa always called themselves not Russian or Ukrainian but Odessits, and although the official language is Ukrainian, the majority of Odessits speak Russian, even though they are not russian. The population was always a mix of large groups of Jews, Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Germans, Frenchmen and Italians, etc. fitting the "port city" image and also probably because of some of the best weather in Russia.

There had never been any ethnic cleansings or antagonisms between nationalities, and they all lived prosperous and together, similar to a New York or any other cosmopolitan port city. And, the Russian that they speak is their own unique dialect, distinct from the Russian spoken elsewhere. Almost as if all those separate nationalities needed their own common language. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Communism and the Soviet Union put a major dent in that, for over 70 years, but I hear that Odessa is slowly returning to its glorious self.

KiwiVenge
04-19-2005, 05:17 PM
I wonder if the new Pope will give SH3 a go?
Maybe see him in multiplayer!

[]_---_[] KITT
04-19-2005, 05:33 PM
Sound contact, Pope, long range bearing Rome!

WolfK33
04-19-2005, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by []_---_[] KITT:
Sound contact, Pope, long range bearing Rome! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bergman
04-19-2005, 06:04 PM
Watch out for Holy Water then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Villicus
04-19-2005, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bergman:
Watch out for Holy Water then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder what the crush depth is in that! Could torpedos even cut through it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Johnny_JG2
04-19-2005, 07:58 PM
He's just some dude with a cape and big hat.

He doesn't write my paychecks, or hook me up with chicks- so I don't care if it's Bozo the clown or Hitler's half-brother.. doesn't have any effect on me.

He's just a man. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 07:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsychoFritz:
The whole idea about the Pope being a nazi and not doing enough was started by a european communist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the idea was started by a communist, that doesn't mean it's wrong. It only means that the guy who figured it out was a communist, and that alone means nothing because labels don't make arguments.

hwendlandt
04-19-2005, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WolfK33:
Oh yes, and if you take away the letters "R", "t", "g", "e" and "r" from Ratzinger‚¬īs name, what‚¬īs left?

_azin_ !!!

Now take the "n" away from the end and move it to the front!!

That‚¬īs the proof !!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ROFL, this is hilarious. Guess you drove to much "KTW" (insider) again.

"Good hunting"

Nukem_Hicks
04-19-2005, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
If the idea was started by a communist, that doesn't mean it's wrong. It only means that the guy who figured it out was a communist, and that alone means nothing because labels don't make arguments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An East European Communist several decades ago, actually, which translates into "Soviet." I'm not one for excessive labelling, but the Soviets really do take the gold when it comes to rewriting history to match their agenda. Maxim Gorky, anyone? A Soviet writer in the pay of the USSR is about as credible as Michael Moore or that journalist who took pay from the White House to write stories sympathetic to the Bush administration. It just doesn't work.

And if anyone wishes to defend Soviet ethics, I suggest they first read the Pulitzer-winning history "Gulag", by Anne Applebaum. Bolshevikism directly killed 40 million civilians while the other major communist leaders throughout the world (Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, and Castro) more than doubled that number, according to their own documentation. More innocents have died at the hands of Communism than any other political movement in the world, including Naziism. The label "Communist" can stand as an argument in itself, as anyone still clinging to that title is either ignorant of history or ignorant of basic human rights.

PS - Before anybody accuses me of McCarthyism, I should probably point out that the recently opened Soviet archives proved that roughly 1/3 of McCarthy's "victims" were actually in the pay of the KGB (according to noted historian and ex-Communist David Horowitz). Just some food for thought.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 10:35 PM
Well it's a well-known fact, sonny-jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world known as "The Pentavaret" who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado known as "The Meadows."

Well who's in this Pentavaret?

The Queen, The Vatican, The Getty's, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh I hated the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken, ohhhhhhhh."

Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?

Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fort-nightly, smart-ar$e!

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
I'm not one for excessive labelling, but the Soviets really do take the gold when it comes to rewriting history to match their agenda. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. I don't think the Communists have a monopoly on rewriting history. Capitalists are pretty good at that too.

PsychoFritz
04-19-2005, 11:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsychoFritz:
The whole idea about the Pope being a nazi and not doing enough was started by a european communist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the idea was started by a communist, that doesn't mean it's wrong. It only means that the guy who figured it out was a communist, and that alone means nothing because labels don't make arguments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is wrong...he made it up as a way to attack the Catholic Church to try to make people believe that the church is just as evil as the Nazis. I don't see how he figured out anything...he is the one that made up history and placed a label on the pope. Its kind of funny how an antireligion communist "figures" this out but all of the european jews who were victims of the Nazis don't seem to have a clue.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-19-2005, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsychoFritz:
He is wrong...he made it up as a way to attack the Catholic Church to try to make people believe that the church is just as evil as the Nazis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that wasn't your main argument before. Your argument basically said that he was wrong because he was a communist. That doesn't make sense. It's a non-sequitur. His political affiliations are irrelevant to his propensity to be mistaken, or to lie.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that he made up lies to demonize the Catholic Church, but like I said before, labels don't make arguments.

tradish
04-19-2005, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xerx790:
Another delusional man called the Pope who thinks he is God's vicor on earth?

Give me a break, where is Martin Luther at when you need him? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

As you can tell, I'm Protestant and do not believe in all that lavious, pomp and circumstance.

They even re-wrote the Bible to suit the Church for mankinds personal selves.

What a cow load.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, get a LXX and see what books are in it and compare it to the Luther bible and see which one was rewritten.

As a theology major ignorant statements like these royally annoy me. You can't even prove what you said using ecclestical or secular history.

What a joke.

jfink252
04-20-2005, 12:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
Well it's a well-known fact, sonny-jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world known as "The Pentavaret" who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado known as "The Meadows."

Well who's in this Pentavaret?

The Queen, The Vatican, The Getty's, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh I hated the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken, ohhhhhhhh."

Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?

Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fort-nightly, smart-ar$e! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ARGH!!!!! THE ILLUMINATI!!!!!!

Fnord. Guadalupe. All hail Discordia. Anyone have a golden apple?

And as far as the new Pope playing SHIII, only if the devs give him a torpedo-proof custom-modded sub that looks like the Popemobile.....that would be awesome.

Fink
"In the radiance of the setting sun, men either sing and give thanks or clamor and bewail the approach of old age."

Dunbal
04-20-2005, 12:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by archer49d:


Let me just say that in those days, if you lived in Germany, you were either the son/daughter of a Nazi supporter, or someone being persecuted by the Nazis, there was no "middle-road". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds a lot like the "You're either with us or against us" mentality I have heard spoken by some leaders of a rather large North American nation recently but <shudder> such a thing could <I> never </I> happen, could it?

Ronin.nj
04-20-2005, 01:18 AM
an 70+ yrold new pope,yeh,horarrhhh. to be pope means no sex,doesnt it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif,now im not an religous sort of person,but i can say this any man who go`s 70 bloody years without getting laid,deserves an pay rise.and his own private upmarket apartment with good views.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

dmm_u333
04-20-2005, 03:02 AM
2 Wishes....

1 -I wish people in the US and UK would stop giving Germany a hard time! Come on, lets face it, the US and UK have hardly got 'clean hands' themselves (Iraq, Vietnam, China, Japan, India, South America, Native American Indians,Korea etc etc etc (the list is ENDLESS!)
2 - I wish Germany would not have to feel they have to defend themselves in such an obsequious fashion - its NOT necessary anymore!

Celeon999
04-20-2005, 03:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> LOL, yeah and Jesus had affair with Mary Magdalene. LOL, you read too many books.
BTW It was Americans not Vatican who helped many nazis to hide in USA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i read a lot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Looks like you dont.

This is from the (La Vista) Report of the United States Foreign Ministry from 1947 :

... closer investigations proof that the vatican put pressure on several latin american countrys to let former nazis immigrate without asking their background as long as they are anti-communists...


This is a personal statement from Bishop Alois Hudal close friend of Pope Pius :

... I am priest not a policeman. It was my christian duty to help anyone in his escape from communism. I will not deny that one of those ive helped was Adolf Eichmann. I was not interested in their Third Reich background. ...

Franz Stangl , former Commander of the concentration camp Treblinka near Auschwitz :

... I escaped on may 30 , 1948 from the Linz prison. Then i heard from a bishop in the vatican who is helping catholic SS Officers , so i travelled to rome. ...

Adolf Eichmann in 1959 :

... i remember in deepest sympathy the catholic priests that gave me so much help in my escape from europe ...

Bishop Jakob Weinbacher about Alois Hudal :

... he helped many former Nazis without knowing who they were. But he helped also many people who everybody knows as nazis and war criminals. He was fully aware of the indentity of those people and the things they commited. ...


Maybe you should go over to the libary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To this Odessa thing :

I said : THESE ARE RUMORS. I never said that i believe in this stuff.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I havent said that i call all people from bavaria nazis.

It just wonders me that someone from germany has been elected leader of the catholics just 60 years after the war and all what had happened.

Celeon999
04-20-2005, 04:35 AM
Ive noticed many people trying to ignore historical facts that they dont like.

Ive noticed a good example for this as i watched "Band of Brothers" lately.

Remember the scene with the two SS Soldiers that were saying "polski ! Comerade ! we are polski " http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ?

Then someone said : "Dont trust them ! Everybody knows that there are no polish in the SS!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


This misunderstanding is widely spread in history books troughout Europe.

I think countrys like Poland feel ashamed of this fact so they decided to erase this from their history.

For example they dont like the fact that some concentration camps werent lead by the SS. They were lead by the polish police and special formed polish commandos.

I remember a photo i dont want to post here.

It shows polish police commandos shooting with machine guns into a mass grave with about 100 naked jewish wimen that still gave signs of live from themselves after the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto.

The first movie that showed a link to this was Schindlers List. I think its the most realistical movie ive seen in years. The same happened in every other occupied country.

French killed French, Dutch killed Dutch. Catholics helped killing Catholics , protestans helped killing protestants , and yes jews killed jews.

And yes some of the so called "catholics" in the vatican supported the holocaust simply because they were antisemitics and liked the idea of a jew free world.

So it was the easiest way for a great number of countrys to give all the guild to germany. This way is clean , its easy and no one has to be ashamed when telling their children about the holocaust and the history of their homeland. I think the entire hard truth is only told in german and israely schools today.

Thats one of the main reasons why so many jews turned their backs on their european home countrys after the war an went to Israel.


Just a short list :

In the SS there were ten thousands of volunteers from : Poland , Norway , France , Holland, Czechoslovakia , Finland , Spain , Italy ,Hungary, Turkey , and later in the war there were also Ukranian and Tschetsnian SS batallions.

Some of them were nazis , some of them were antisemitics , and some of them simply were Anti-Stalin and joined the german army just to fight against the soviets and communism.

This just doesnt fit into their "poor occupied countrys" picture so they decide not to acknowledge the wide spread antisemitism and sympathy with the nazi cause that existed all over europe. Even in these countrys.

It makes their very easy good and evil mentality crumble.

As for Czechoslovakia there even were muslim SS batallions with a Mullah as commander.

These were widely known for beheading captured partisans. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Looks like this is some sort of perverted tradition. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dominicrigg
04-20-2005, 05:27 AM
Viva il Papa!!!

But are you guys serious? His father was a member of the Nazi party and Hitler Youth?

You know not everyone was a member of the Nazi party, infact Donitze wasnt a member until quite late in the war, and a lot of U-boat captains and navy men were never members. So dont use "oh everyone was" as an excuse. That is probably the most dangerous sentiment in the world!

bertgang
04-20-2005, 05:27 AM
Maybe it's normal, for an atheist, to attack the new Pope as part of something he totally hate: this role has little sense, if the whole christian religion is superstition and lie.

Maybe it's normal too, for a protestant, to attack the new Pope as leader of a competitor church; even having lot of similar beliefs (details excluded), historical rivalry is really strong.

It's not normal at all, anyway, to attack someone just as a German, forced to live under nazist rule when young.
The italian candidate had a similar story (he was young under Mussolini), but I suspect that nobody should have called him fascist, if elected.

Well, I don't know at all if Ratzinger will be a "good" Pope or not: he hasn't the same appeal of Wojtyla but, as it seems, he has really similar opinios (new ruler, same party).

I like to see another foreign Pope in Rome, and I hope that this trend will continue; no more an italian business.

Messervy
04-20-2005, 06:12 AM
I am atheist or at least agnostic but I really liked the old pope.
He was a giant of a human. I hope the new pope will continue what John Paul had started.

fizilbert
04-20-2005, 06:22 AM
You know, there's just 2 thinks you should never talk about on public forums; politics and religion, and this thread is about both. This thread needs to take a one way trip to the recycle bin.

Thermalschicht
04-20-2005, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm_u333:
_2 Wishes...._

_1 -_I wish people in the US and UK would stop giving Germany a hard time! Come on, lets face it, the US and UK have hardly got 'clean hands' themselves (Iraq, Vietnam, China, Japan, India, South America, Native American Indians,Korea etc etc etc (the list is ENDLESS!)
_2 -_ I wish Germany would not have to feel they have to defend themselves in such an obsequious fashion - its NOT necessary anymore! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I always wonder why these remarks come from Germans that identify themselves with emblems and symbols of the 3rd Reich? Your logo contains a "Siegrune" or victory rune. A symbol highly associated with naziism and forbidden in Germany. And please don't give me any of that Germanic traditions rethoric...
You are wrong btw - Germany does not need to defend itself? I guess as long as people glorify times of terror and opression - be it in Germany, Chile, Spain, China, Russia or wherever - we DO have to defend ourselves. Against it happening again...

I write this as German, who is proud to be a German for ONE reason - that we (or at least most of us) have freed ourselves from the shackles of fascism and dictature and truly have turned democratic. We may not be perfect but we are only human afterall.

Sadly enough a few reactionist people constantly pour oil into the flames of their counterparts of whatever nation - forcing the rest to think of the country as backward and reactionist.

Just to clarify (no comparison):

Germany is NOT Hitler
United States of America are NOT G.W.Bush
Catholicism is NOT Opus Dei
Russia is NOT Stalin
etc. etc. etc.

I can sum up most of what I read in Forums all over the NET easily: PREJUDICE against allmost everything... And that really makes me sad.

Oh - and by the way - I don't like to have a swastika flag on my boat, even if it was there originally. I just hate it.
It only does one good - it shows me I truly am fighting on the wrong side and for a bad cause...

malkuth
04-20-2005, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barracus0411:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Polacco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>first of let me mention that I am German and catholic (Not by choice)...yeah, how bad can it get?! )
and I couldn't care less about the pope, the church and all it represents. Some of the worst atrocities have been committed by the catholic church. Furthermore, it represents beliefs and views of an era long gone and totally out of place in our times. I almost had to throw up, when John Paul II went to AIDS ridden-Africa, preaching about the sin of using condoms. The man should have been shot for that ignorant crime. We'd be better off without the catholic church.

For that matter, the world would probably be better off without religion altogether -look at current events: Ireland, Islam, etc.

However, I find your post insulting. First off, are you saying that anyone born in Bavaria is a Nazi, just because it's the birthplace of national socialism?

Secondly: Yeah he's German. So what! Doesn't matter where the pope comes from. They are all old backward, ignorant farts anyway. If we have to have a pope, let it be someone younger, who's got an open mind and is willing to go with the times. Of course, he'd probably die within 2 months of election...from "heart failure" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, you talk about ignoance, take a look in the mirror.

John Paul II preached life and family values. If Africans followed what the pope said, they wouldn't screw everything that moves and spread the disease. From what you're saying, they ignored all the teachings, but the part about not wearing condoms, yeap, good idea. You have to know a bit about what the man preached before forming an opinion about him.

As for the world being better off without religion. Maybe you didn't notice, but all out laws, and hence our society is based on the Bible. You know, this thou shall not kill, steal...etc, yeah it's from the Bible.

As for (other) people implying he was a nazi, that's just ignorant beyond belief.

As for your last paragraph, you know, the most ignorant one. Maybe you should know or try to understand what these "old farts" really preach. I also don't agree with everyhting they say, but at least i know what they are trying to say instead of blasting them without knowing the facts. Typical of the left, you want your opinin to be respected, but you disrespect an opionion of someone you disagree with, in this case know nothing about.

I mean, I'm sure that you know nothing of the new pope anyways. You don't know that he used to be very liberal and why he changed. You don't know that he fought to keep the catholic abortion counsellors in germany open because he thought they might actually avert abortions. The pope is there to preach the religion and to hold the catholic values. That might involve decisions you might not like, but it doesn't give you the right to insult them and call them ignorant.

Thank you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people take a great deal of comfort from their faith, it would be inappropriate in the extreme to rubbish that on this board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually None of this Belongs on this board. But since we have no real moderators..

By the way, I agree religion has caused problems and death. But religion has also done good. If man doesnt Fear Something, then he will do wicked things.

But then again, even with religion.. man does wicked things. Usually by twisting Religion.

dmm_u333
04-20-2005, 09:14 AM
well, that's where YOU@RE wrong - I'm British and live in the UK!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thermalschicht:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm_u333:
_2 Wishes...._

_1 -_I wish people in the US and UK would stop giving Germany a hard time! Come on, lets face it, the US and UK have hardly got 'clean hands' themselves (Iraq, Vietnam, China, Japan, India, South America, Native American Indians,Korea etc etc etc (the list is ENDLESS!)
_2 -_ I wish Germany would not have to feel they have to defend themselves in such an obsequious fashion - its NOT necessary anymore! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I always wonder why these remarks come from Germans that identify themselves with emblems and symbols of the 3rd Reich? Your logo contains a "Siegrune" or victory rune. A symbol highly associated with naziism and forbidden in Germany. And please don't give me any of that Germanic traditions rethoric...
You are wrong btw - Germany does not need to defend itself? I guess as long as people glorify times of terror and opression - be it in Germany, Chile, Spain, China, Russia or wherever - we DO have to defend ourselves. Against it happening again...

I write this as German, who is proud to be a German for ONE reason - that we (or at least most of us) have freed ourselves from the shackles of fascism and dictature and truly have turned democratic. We may not be perfect but we are only human afterall.

Sadly enough a few reactionist people constantly pour oil into the flames of their counterparts of whatever nation - forcing the rest to think of the country as backward and reactionist.

Just to clarify (no comparison):

Germany is NOT Hitler
United States of America are NOT G.W.Bush
Catholicism is NOT Opus Dei
Russia is NOT Stalin
etc. etc. etc.

I can sum up most of what I read in Forums all over the NET easily: PREJUDICE against allmost everything... And that really makes me sad.

Oh - and by the way - I don't like to have a swastika flag on my boat, even if it was there originally. I just hate it.
It only does one good - it shows me I truly am fighting on the wrong side and for a bad cause... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG27_Arklight
04-20-2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quillan:
Heh. I know a woman whose godfather was Hermann Goering. It apparently was a common thing in pre-war Germany. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I used to date Herman Goerrings great granddaughter (I guess that would be her relation since she has the Goerring name). In fact, I still live up the street from her.

Interesting family. Her mother NEVER talked about him and her daughter (my girlfriend at the time) told me not to ask her parents about him as he was/is a touchy subject.

SubSerpent
04-20-2005, 11:09 AM
I personally think religion and government both need to go. People need to start taking their lives into their own hands instead of letting either of the two influence how they wish to live their life. There is no God, and you only have this time on this earth to do as you wish. Be gay or be straight! Behave or be bad! Give life or give death! Who cares?!?! I now sing to you part of a Bon Jovie Song... "It's my life, it's now or never. No, I ain't gonna live forever. I just wanna live until I die. It's my life"!


P.S. A wise man once said, "I would rather 'live' for a day, than to spend a lifetime of not 'living' at all" - Something to think about! Go smoke that cigarette, go eat that triple layer choclate fudge cake, go have premarital sex, go cheat on your spouse(highly recommended)...It does not matter, when you die, you simply become nothing but food for worms and fertalizer for flowers. Your brain will rot - leaving you without any memories of anything. But don't think of death as a bad thing, it's not either good or bad when you become 'NOTHING'. Do you remember what it was like before you were born? NO, of course not! So why would death be any different? People put way to much hope and belief into so much **** it sickens me. What a bunch of followers some folks are!

Mjollnir111675
04-20-2005, 11:22 AM
Imagine that!

A Bon Jovi lyric AND a 'wise man' reference ALL in the same post!!

http://photos8.flickr.com/10131708_d6d24a1a54_o.jpg

SubSerpent
04-20-2005, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
http://photos8.flickr.com/10131708_d6d24a1a54_o.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey that's me back in grade school. Don't I look hot? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Xerx790
04-20-2005, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dude, get a LXX and see what books are in it and compare it to the Luther bible and see which one was rewritten.

As a theology major ignorant statements like these royally annoy me. You can't even prove what you said using ecclestical or secular history.

What a joke.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agreee, you having a theology major is a joke.

The Church rewrote the Bible to fit themselves almost as a political goverment. Yes, the Church, that brought us the Inquistion and the Dark Ages.

The Apothrecry is an add-on, and you think Mother Mary is a co-diety? Do you not remember that God said I alone am God and do not put any one else before me? The Whole Church is into idol worship, praying to the saints, and beliving Mary is a 'Co-deity' smacks against God sole soveriegnty.

My statement is about the Protestant movement, started by Martin Luther, is he broke the poeple away from organized religion which always ends up becoming corrupt by mans ideas (remeber the money changers in the temple that Jeseus over threw?).

Well, I am not goin to believe in a man called the Pope and worship him.

I only believe in the one true God. But of course you will use name calling to lose me, that is what a good Communist/Nazi/Liberal does when they run out of good aguments.

I will never bow down and idol worship the Pope, Mother Mary (she is only the human mother of Jesus; not a co-diety), nor any saint. That stuff is made up by man.

You should go read the original Hebrew and Greek, you claim to have a theology degree, you sure are ignorant. Tell me where it says ' upon this rock I build my church' was taken completely out of context.

No, Peter was not the first Pope; and the Pope is just a nice old delluded man going to hell.

Please, people continue, I love to see the seeds of mankinds own distruction being sown by their own stupid idealogy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I am surprised they even allow this thread to remain open. Did you not know talking religion and politics in a bar can get your butt kicked?

Corto
04-20-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm not much of Politically Correct person. I might say the opposite. But don't you think this picture is somehow.....? (add your comment please)

Bockholt
04-20-2005, 03:51 PM
At least this has brought the Lutherans out of the proverbial woodwork. I hope you are all studying your Bibles (that is, the Old Testament) & ever looking to your Immortal Souls, my friends!

Bockholt has a Degree in Theology (3rd Klasse, Heidelberg University + a 1st in Duelling Scars). I could even have chosen to join the Holy Lutheran Church (actually I am a lay preacher to this day), but devoted my life to the Imperial Navy instead.

Each unto his own, fight the good fight. Some of my finest officers & men were Roman Catholiks, I wish a fellow-countryman so-called 'Pope' the best of luck! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SwissSkipper
04-20-2005, 04:17 PM
omg who cares....lets kill them all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Long Friday

It buurrrnnnssss....

Nambo1
04-20-2005, 04:38 PM
I asked my Father what he had to do in the Hitler Youth, " gather firewood and go shopping for old ladies" was his reply.

Iam told the Nazi's killed six million Jews.
Iam also told the Catholic church killed 150 million, (herotics?)

Doesnt this make it worst the fact that the new Pope is a Catholic rather than a Nazi?

Johnny_JG2
04-20-2005, 05:01 PM
I've never been religious, per se. I believe in *something*, but I'm not sure what it is. All I know for sure is that there is something larger than us that we don't understand.

Blindly following a system of beliefs is closing your mind to all the possibilities. I like to think for myself, and would never follow some goof ball in a fancy outfit who many think is some sort of official messenger of God. The Pope, or the local minister down the street is NO closer to God than I am.

One thing I've noticed, to my dismay, from talking to very religious people is that they are religious because they think that you HAVE to in order to reach Heaven. In other words, they do it for selfish purposes- instead of just living a good life without *reasons* to be good. *MY* God, isn't gonna send anyone to Hell because they didn't blindly follow someone else's beliefs.

I used to know someone who said that anyone who isn't a Christian is going straight to hell for eternity. I asked him what about some little kid in the middle of the jungle, desert, or some country that was never exposed to Christianity- and he said they are gonna burn also :0. I made sure to tell him that he has an evil God and that his religion is just full of hate, and that if anyone is going to burn, it'll be him for being so mean spirited and narrow minded. He said he KNOWS God well, and that he felt sad because I'm going to hell with those little kids. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Most religions are just big cults full of narrow minded fools.

C'mon.. the Bible was written by a few dudes way back when, and they told everyone it was God who was writing thru them. Yeah... o.k.... good stories, but uhhhhh... whatever. I'm not doubting many of the stories in there, but it is full of symbolism and shouldn't be taken literally- as many people do. My friend and I argued about Noha's Ark for a long time, and I couldn't convince him that it just wasn't possible. All logic is lost on extremely religous people.. but I guess they're happy, because ignorance is bliss.

PsychoFritz
04-20-2005, 05:15 PM
Athiests are just as ignorant as religious people. They have people in history that started the ideas and got the movement going and atheists also read books and believe evertyhing that those books say if those books agree with what they have already decieded to believe. It has nothing to do about being intelligent or ignorant...its what you have decided to believe on your own. Athiests have no evidence to directly support their faith just like religious people have no direct evidence to support their faith.

Nambo1
04-20-2005, 05:23 PM
Dont be quick to knock the Bible without reading it first just because of those "narrow minded fools" who havnt read it either.
A couple of examples, Hell, or Hades, means hole in the ground, the Catholics added the burning part to frighten you into joining up, proof of this is in Revelations where you read that Death and Hades where cast into the lake of fire, now if the lake of fire is hell, how can hell be cast into itself.
As for the dude in the jungle going to "hell", no, for it is written there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the un-righteous.

MadDogE134
04-20-2005, 07:40 PM
i believe as my forefathers did... heaven and earth come from the creator and one must follow what is in one's heart.

i don't beleive in wealth or possesions because nothing belongs to us... the only thing one owns is one's self and that is not for very long.

the one thing that is certain is that we will all go back from wence we came. that means... for the atheistic science gurus, energy cannot be destroyed it merely transforms into another and we all know there is a life force that is within us. what we all call death is when that life force leaves.

so it is a shame that so many are blind to the meaning of life. it is like a dog that chases it's tail or the pig that likes to lie in it's own filth. peace comes from within and cannot be forced upon another.

in closing... i will not worship any man, written word or material object. i only worship and adore the creator that gave us life. we should all remember that mankind is the one that has created misery.

when i was a child... i thought as a child

SubSerpent
04-20-2005, 10:21 PM
Somene once stated that the invention of the submarine was the most evil minded thing ever created. I disagree! I think the invention of religion and government was the most evil minded thing people ever created. Submarines don't start wars, governments and religions do. Submarines are just tools to use to get the job done.

Bockholt
04-21-2005, 12:04 AM
Mjollnir's poster would be offensive if it was aimed at disabled people, but it isn't, is it? It's poking fun at ignorant nerds who argue about things like history, politics and religion on the Internet - and you have to feel sorry for such sad folk, don't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG11_BobCat
04-21-2005, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mjollnir's poster would be offensive if it was aimed at disabled people, but it isn't, is it? It's poking fun at ignorant nerds who argue about things like history, politics and religion on the Internet - and you have to feel sorry for such sad folk, don't you? Smile <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is offensive; go and tell the parents of a downs syndrome kid who has just won a race that he is still a ******. Why the hell haven't the moderators stepped in?

BobCat

Skarphol
04-21-2005, 02:32 AM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Skarphol/pope2.jpg

ChasARGH
04-21-2005, 02:57 AM
If there is a God, all christians are going to hell. I mean, here's a group of *******s putting words in God's mouth, claiming this and that is right, acting all arrogant/ignorant, and blah blah blah... I bet God is really pissed off at all those morons for doing that to him, if he is up there. They really make him look bad, and if I was God, I surely wouldn't want that whiny bunch of bigots to represent me or act as my fan club.

Christians should shut the hell up, and stop claiming they know what God really has said or wants. There are so many variations of christianity, and they all claim they're right. If you have to believe in God, then do so quietly and live a good life without preaching about what God has said, or what he wants, because you simply can't know. Living a good life should be enough for God, if he really is supposed to be a sensible fellow.

Dominicrigg
04-21-2005, 03:06 AM
Hitchhikers guide on the wonders of babel fish...

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly usefull could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existance of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

'Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.

'Meanwhile, the poor Babelfish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars then anything else in the history of creation.'

Indianer.
04-21-2005, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skarphol:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Skarphol/pope2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LMFOA....

I even gathered the kids around to look at that...

Brilliant.

Johnny_JG2
04-21-2005, 03:10 AM
BTW - I have seen that pic of the kid with down's sydrome used in the same way before, and I was as offended then as I am now. That's that kid's proudest moment, and I'm sure his family and friends were so happy. Seeing it used like that is pretty sad.

It's just mean spirited. Heh, we're talking about religion and living the "good" life and blah blah, and someone throws this in there. I think it's safe to assume he doesn't believe in Karma. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I couldn't bring myself to post something like that on the internet. I know many find it funny, but it is something that is very serious to many people out there and I'm sure many are heartbroken seeing things like that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Celeon999
04-21-2005, 03:13 AM
Oh no ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My thread turned into a religious discussion.

My grandpa told me once "...never discuss with religious people..."

"..it always ends with burning , shooting , stoning someone..."

".. they will beat someone until he realizes how peace loving their religion is..." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Cavalier889
04-21-2005, 03:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I only believe in the one true God. But of course you will use name calling to lose me, that is what a good Communist/Nazi/Liberal does when they run out of good aguments.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too believe in the one true God, and I have to say you should be more careful about how you express yourself before some who may be unbelievers, i.e. Col. 4.5. Remember what we stand for. We aren't here to judge the world, that job is taken. The Catholic church has it's problems, but I know of true believers even there. Jesus' truth supercedes denominational lines, so take care how you charaterize other potential brothers in Christ. Just a gentle nudge in the right direction. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nukem_Hicks
04-21-2005, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Johnny_JG2:
BTW - I have seen that pic of the kid with down's sydrome used in the same way before, and I was as offended then as I am now. That's that kid's proudest moment, and I'm sure his family and friends were so happy. Seeing it used like that is pretty sad.

It's just mean spirited. Heh, we're talking about religion and living the "good" life and blah blah, and someone throws this in there. I think it's safe to assume he doesn't believe in Karma. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I couldn't bring myself to post something like that on the internet. I know many find it funny, but it is something that is very serious to many people out there and I'm sure many are heartbroken seeing things like that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the PC police! Watch your mouths, or the political commissar might just get you. What's next, are they going to start taking the word "******ed" out of popular music? (oh wait, did that to the Black Eyed Peas). Start firing government officials for using the word "*****rdly," a word that, according to Webster's, actually means "stingy" and has nothing to do with the other "n" word? (oh wait, they did that too a few years back in DC). No, wait. I know. School officials will threaten you with suspension for writing a disparaging report on the ancient Greek island of *****s and its citizens, called Lesbians. Apparently some modern lesbians might be offended by historical fact. Nevermind...they did that to me in high school.

Encouraging sensitivity is one thing; attempting to cram it down people's throats is quite another, especially when the government is doing the cramming. Demanding the removal of unpopular speech is to threaten the very basis of free speech itself. I'm rather surprised to see so many calls for removal of an "offensive" picture on an English forum, given that the English and Yanks have been practically the world's only advocates of free speech over the past several centuries.

Johnny_JG2
04-21-2005, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Johnny_JG2:
BTW - I have seen that pic of the kid with down's sydrome used in the same way before, and I was as offended then as I am now. That's that kid's proudest moment, and I'm sure his family and friends were so happy. Seeing it used like that is pretty sad.

It's just mean spirited. Heh, we're talking about religion and living the "good" life and blah blah, and someone throws this in there. I think it's safe to assume he doesn't believe in Karma. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I couldn't bring myself to post something like that on the internet. I know many find it funny, but it is something that is very serious to many people out there and I'm sure many are heartbroken seeing things like that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the PC police! Watch your mouths, or the political commissar might just get you. What's next, are they going to start taking the word "******ed" out of popular music? (oh wait, did that to the Black Eyed Peas). Start firing government officials for using the word "*****rdly," a word that, according to Webster's, actually means "stingy" and has nothing to do with the other "n" word? (oh wait, they did that too a few years back in DC). No, wait. I know. School officials will threaten you with suspension for writing a disparaging report on the ancient citizens of *****s, called Lesbians. Apparently some lesbians might be offended by historical fact. Nevermind...they did that to me in high school.

Encouraging sensitivity is one thing; attempting to cram it down people's throats is quite another, especially when the government is doing the cramming. Demanding the removal of unpopular speech is to threaten the very basis of free speech itself. I'm rather surprised to see so many calls for removal of an "offensive" picture on an English forum, given that the English and Yanks have been practically the world's only advocates of free speech over the past several centuries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't call for internet police to remove that pic.

I was exercising my right to free speech by stating that it offended me.

I didn't demand anything, actually.

It's funny that you are offended by me being offended. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Franzen
04-21-2005, 04:40 AM
Ok, my 2 cents.

I do not believe in a god, although I have tried. The problem is I am too logical and need proof, not feelings. That's not to say I disrespect religion in anyway. I do disagree with organized religion in general though. As long as it run by man(hunams) it will always have deep problems.

Anyways, I am very interested in northern European history, languages, and "pagan" beliefs. Just last night I came across an article called "Why I am Wiccan". Normally I don't read stuff like this people involved in this usually believe in some sort of magic. But this one looked interesting.

This person wrote about her life and how she eventually found her spiritual self in the pagan circles. One thing I have always admired about these people was their respect for other religions and beliefs. The author expressed her very strong opinions about this.

I also share the same opinion with her, and very strongly I might add. So, for those in this forum that attack or insult other beliefs, which I read often in this thread, consider the people that have died for the same ignorant argument. Forget the kindergarten "my dad can beat your dad" and have a little respect for other people's personal beliefs.

If you really believe your god or gods are so great, then you don't need to defend it/them/him, yes? I've always felt that you crusaders, and you know who you are, are actually trying to hide the fact that their faith in their own god/gods is actually weak.

And for those that like to point out that religion has killed so many people through history, think bigger. Religion, like guns, doesn't kill people. Religion or guns controlled by people kill people. People kill people! History does not repeat itself; people repeat history!

Now I must ask that you stop making excuses for our imperfections in the form of personal attacks. Respect goes a long way. You can learn something from the people condemned by your beliefs, simply because they are different.

I hope I offended no one.

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
04-21-2005, 04:46 AM
One more thing;

Moral values do not come from the bible, torah, or the koran. The books only quote them. Once again, think bigger. Human civilization began developing more than 20,000 years ago. How would this be possible without ideals like "thou shall not kill"? For more than 100,000 years we have been living in communities. How would that have been possible without a book of quotations?

I am not pooping on anyone's religion or beliefs. If you look at the core or root of your religion it recommends you open your eyes and mind. The religious organizations will not teach you this. Wasn't it a carpenter from Nazarath that said "The church of god comes from within"?

Fritz Franzen

Dominicrigg
04-21-2005, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
One more thing;

Moral values do not come from the bible, torah, or the koran. The books only quote them. Once again, think bigger. Human civilization began developing more than 20,000 years ago. How would this be possible without ideals like "thou shall not kill"? For more than 100,000 years we have been living in communities. How would that have been possible without a book of quotations?
Fritz Franzen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because ancient communities used to work on the Revenge theory. Where if someone did something wrong to you then you killed them, stole their goat or something.

Then some dude (was it nebachanesser(sp?) thought, "this is a bit dodgy", and wrote laws and said,

"hey listen to my laws! No more killing! I decide whos right and wrong!"

and people said "why?"

and he said "caus, cause, ermmm, im king and i was chosen by the sun to be king!!"

and they went "whoooaaahhh ok!! We dont want burning!" and followed his laws.

Then some thought, mmmmm. This is a cool idea! So many now twist this same basic idea to get money, create support for their own wars ect.

The birth of modern religion in a nutshell

(im a catholic by the way... i think im going to hell now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif )

Franzen
04-21-2005, 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeon999:
Oh no ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My thread turned into a religious discussion.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, yeah right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

How would a title like "ALLLAAAAAAARRRRMMM!! A german pope" turn into a religious discussion? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Gimme 100 "Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven my son. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz Franzen

Johnny_JG2
04-21-2005, 05:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
I do not believe in a god, although I have tried. The problem is I am too logical and need proof, not feelings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to feel the same way. I'm very logical minded, and I love science. I read books about string theory, black holes, the universe, and mind bending stuff like that. I guess I'm searching for knowledge in order to discover just what the heck is going on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What I've found so far, is that the more I learn about the universe, the more I think there really is *something* out there. I have no clue what that something is, but I would never completely discount any theories or beliefs. We just don't KNOW for sure- and we can't in our present state of understanding, so we shouldn't close our minds to other possibilites.

We only have a few senses to work with, and our own beliefs. We should never think that we have it all figured out.

I think we are just part of something much larger, and whatever that is we simply don't have the brain capacity to fathom it.

We are getting closer to understanding certain things about the universe- and it is absolutely crazy. String theory looks very promising, but to even begin to understand it and unravel it will literally require new mathmatics to be developed by mathmaticians who are probably not born yet- in fact many scientists and physicists say that humans simply aren't smart enough to develop the math - yet. It will likely require the next Newton or Einstien to come along, and he probably hasn't even been born yet :0. It will take a long time, and then all that will do is open up new mysteries that are even larger. This and new break thrus will continue to happen for ever probably, maybe we'll never really know.. or maybe we will- but we gotta keep looking.

Franzen
04-21-2005, 05:30 AM
Nice thoughts Johnny. I do agree with you. I do believe in nature. Nature being all that we know and much more, not just trees and grass. I feel we are all part of nature in an unimaginable vast collective. I also believe that while we are all part of the same collective, each individual has no noticable effect on the collective as a whole. I don't pray or believe I'm being watched by this collective.

However, we, as individuals, can affect other individuals negatively or positively. We are so far from away from understanding even the smallest fraction of everything we know now. Many people take personal comfort in their own personal beliefs. These personal beliefs are what many people base their daily and complete lives on.

When individuals attack the beliefs of others just because it is different from there own I feel it is really sad and selfishly cruel. A much simpler comparison would be of a child bringing a simple crayon drawing to show his/her parents. This drawing has deep meaning to the child. When the child presents it the parents tell the child the work is bad and then tears up the drawing in front of the child. This is basically what the "spiritually righteous" often do to others.

It makes me even more angry to see it happen in a community not base on differences, but based on similarities. We are all here because we love u-boots and the pleasure the game brings us. Whether we are from different races, cultures, or beliefs, we all have one thing in common.

I'd rather not see mods jump in and close this thread. I think the thread can be turned into something good for everyone.

We are all part of a collective, even if we limit that to simply being members of the same species. Species evolve. We can't rely on governments for this kind of guidance. We must all, as individuals, take some responsibility. Each individual should be more than willing to board the "evolution train" as a collective; there won't be another train for those who decide not to get on.

Fritz Franzen

Johnny_JG2
04-21-2005, 05:53 AM
You know it's kind of funny, but while I don't necessarily believe in a certain religion - I have always been very partial to Buddhism. I guess if I was gonna be religious, I'd be a Buddhist. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heaven and hell to them isn't some "place" that a God made for the purpose of suffering or happiness - they are places that exist everywhere and in every time. People who are suffering are in "a hell" and those who are in pleasure are in "heaven". This can be on the earth at this time, or in another place or plane of existance. They don't claim to "know" anything specific about the origin of the universe or the earth either- there was no beginning of time to them.. to them, those are basically just beliefs by weak minds who think there needs to be a beginning to everything. They believe something like theres a million universes born every second for eternity or something like that.

I don't know.. it sounds more right to me than other religions, and in many aspects are right in line with science and even string theory of all things.

They celebrate all life, and simply try and be good people. They don't condemn anyone, or put fear of eternal ****ation into their followers, or lure people with promises of heavenly riches - there's simply no need for that. Buddhists are at peace with themselves and with nature- and that seems like the way to go to me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Franzen
04-21-2005, 06:14 AM
Well Johnny, if you wanna be a Buddhist I would recommend the Mach 3 from Gilette. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just kidding of course. You know, the majority of religions share these values and beliefs. It's the 3 major western religions that have a different explanation. I have never believed, even as a child, that there was a beginning and an end. Sorry, I can not perceive "nothing" as a condition or even a possibilty. The problem most of us have, as a species, is that we think of everything relative to our own existance.

We really have so much to learn.

Fritz Franzen

Nukem_Hicks
04-21-2005, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Johnny_JG2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Johnny_JG2:
BTW - I have seen that pic of the kid with down's sydrome used in the same way before, and I was as offended then as I am now. That's that kid's proudest moment, and I'm sure his family and friends were so happy. Seeing it used like that is pretty sad.

It's just mean spirited. Heh, we're talking about religion and living the "good" life and blah blah, and someone throws this in there. I think it's safe to assume he doesn't believe in Karma. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I couldn't bring myself to post something like that on the internet. I know many find it funny, but it is something that is very serious to many people out there and I'm sure many are heartbroken seeing things like that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the PC police! Watch your mouths, or the political commissar might just get you. What's next, are they going to start taking the word "******ed" out of popular music? (oh wait, did that to the Black Eyed Peas). Start firing government officials for using the word "*****rdly," a word that, according to Webster's, actually means "stingy" and has nothing to do with the other "n" word? (oh wait, they did that too a few years back in DC). No, wait. I know. School officials will threaten you with suspension for writing a disparaging report on the ancient citizens of *****s, called Lesbians. Apparently some lesbians might be offended by historical fact. Nevermind...they did that to me in high school.

Encouraging sensitivity is one thing; attempting to cram it down people's throats is quite another, especially when the government is doing the cramming. Demanding the removal of unpopular speech is to threaten the very basis of free speech itself. I'm rather surprised to see so many calls for removal of an "offensive" picture on an English forum, given that the English and Yanks have been practically the world's only advocates of free speech over the past several centuries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't call for internet police to remove that pic.

I was exercising my right to free speech by stating that it offended me.

I didn't demand anything, actually.

It's funny that you are offended by me being offended. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mistake. I've counted at least 7 posts devoted to getting that picture removed, and I happened to use your post as the jump board. I'll be more careful next time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Franzen
04-21-2005, 06:24 AM
Johnny, here's something I find hilarious. Have you ever heard the "philosophical" question "If a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"?

Ha ha ha, the first time I heard it I thought it was a joke, yet the people in the room turned it into a deep longlasting discussion. I was only a child so my opinion wasn't welcomed.

I remember thinking how ridiculous this is. How can people take it seriously? The tree is not there for us. The tree was here long before we were. In fact, I would be more inclined to say that we are here for the tree. Forget the carbon dioxide/oxygen exchange thing, it cancelles itself out. When we die we rot and become part of the soil in the form of humus, then the tree consumes us.

This is just one of many examples of how smallminded we can be. We need to learn to look at things, not relative to our exsistance, but relative to everything.

Fritz Franzen

Celeon999
04-21-2005, 08:45 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Please stop it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif This thread was not meant to start a religious war here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wait a second! My master tries to contact me again.......

" ..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Youve done fine Celeon ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif "

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif"thanks my master!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif What should i do next master? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif"

"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Now you should go into politics in germany http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif"

"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif There is something you must finish! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif yes my master ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif! "



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Franzen
04-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Ok, now I know exactly what a troll is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Don't let him bait you.

Fritz Franzen

SubSerpent
04-21-2005, 11:26 AM
[IMG]http://www.subserpent.net/evilpope.jpg/IMG]

SubSerpent
04-21-2005, 11:27 AM
http://www.subserpent.net/evilpope.jpg

Celeon999
04-21-2005, 11:53 AM
Ah ! All quiet on the western front. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


By the way :

Gods Rottweiler ??

Without any words :

http://de.geocities.com/celebrationofthelizard2002/Winston01.JPG

blue_76
04-21-2005, 12:25 PM
mystery is what drives man to seek answers. but not all answers are within our understanding to unravel.. the creator of all is beyond our understanding.. we could speculate and seek evidence for thousands of years to find only more mystery.
just my opinion.

Xerx790
04-21-2005, 01:58 PM
Oh man, I can't take it anymore! LOL

I had enough religion for this week. Sorry all if I offended anyone.

My mother is dying from colon cancer and it is not nice. I am abit angry at God right now, to allow such suffering in this world. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I need to unsubscribe from this thread! My e-mail box is full.

No more, no more, no more,.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I hope the best for the old guy. He seems to be enjoying himself. We all try to believe in something which I guess is all that counts in the end.

Now back to the game. While we all sing 'We are the World'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Franzen
04-21-2005, 09:35 PM
Sorry to hear about your Mom dude. Don't really know what else to say,......I'm not good with these things.

My relationship with my mother deteriorated do to family politics, to the point that we hadn't spoken in over 2 years, absolutely no communication. She lives i Canada and I've been in China for about 5 years.
Recently I've been very busy with work and must admit, I hadn't even thought of my mother in such a long time. The other night I woke up around 3 am and for some strange reason was thinking intensely about my mom and how she might be doing, and how we could repair our differences. This was strange to me.
After some time I couldn't get back to sleep and decided to check my email. I had been waiting for important documents.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I opened my email page and found a letter from my mother! She wanted to repair our relationship! My mailbox had received it at 2:53 am! Although I don't accept things I can't sense with the 5 senses, I can't call this a simple coincidence.

I guess what I want to say is don't worry dude, your mom will always be with you and you with her.

Fritz Franzen

Trink_Afri-Cola
04-23-2005, 01:36 AM
<span class="ev_code_RED">Uncalled for trolling. Do try to be respectful of others on the forums or you will no longer be welcome here. If you'd like to discuss this feel free to email me at doc@gotfrags.net.</span>

Bockholt
04-23-2005, 02:13 AM
Only Trinky could come up with that!

To be a proper nazi you should of course have a sort of amoral Atheist 'philosophy', or perhaps adopt a kind of pseudo-pagan 'religion' which Himmler was keen to concoct for the SS. They had ceremonial for 'Germanic' funerals (Heydrich's being the most impressive), weddings (Goering's second marriage) and even 'baptisms' for the lucky babies of high-ranking servants of the state.

But when Hitler first came to power there was a stand-off with the Church, both Catholic & Protestant. This was resolved through the usual nazi diplomatic method of promising one thing, then doing quite another. Most churchmen acquiesced to that and to the even less subtle terrorism of the government : the threat of being arrested in the middle of the night and ending up dead or in a Concentration camp. Many prisoners were there for reasons of christian religious conscience, notably Jehovah's Witnesses - who were extremely brave and stuck to their beliefs despite enormous persecution.

Some theologians, most important of whom was the great Dietrich Bonhoeffer, openly resisted nazism on Christian moral grounds. Hitler was afraid of this, keeping Bonhoeffer alive until the very end of the war when his execution was ordered. Active Catholic resistors include Count Klaus von Stauffenberg, who was appalled by the amorailty of the system imposed by the nazis. Werner Moelders, Luftwaffe ace, opposed them too with a public display of his Faith, incuding by having a full Nuptial Mass for his wedding (his death soon after may not have been an accident...)

Basically the nazis accommodated themselves to religion in Germany. Soldiers' belt buckles still had GOTT MIT UNS on them, even if there were swastikas (the antichristian Party symbol) festooned everywhere else. Christians reacted like everyone else : a few were very brave and stuck to their principles, usually suffering the ultimate penalty. A few went right over to the bullies and cravenly supported them; but most people just tried to get on with their lives and turned a blind eye to the evil that was festering all around them.

The question to ask is : What would I have done had I been there?

Also: could I detect the rise of something similar if it came into to my life? How am I reacting to the bad things that exist today? Am I opposing them? Helping them? Or am I simply ignoring them?

Here endeth today's Lesson.

WereSnowleopard
04-23-2005, 10:42 AM
If we have France Pope then everyone will run around yell "he support Napoleon". If we have Spain Pope then everyone panic as run around yell "he support Inquisition" Also bad history with latin people from spainard I guess Media want get people's attention by yell "wolf" based on bad "old" history on certain country/race/religous/ideal. In my home country USA with some states that people still talk about someone run for office have past family connection to KKK, Confederates, mafia and other stuff that media try make someone look bad. As stuff go on to people gossip/rumor about other one's history that have nothing to do but do because high level(Father,superior,bully,boss, even boyfriend/girlfriend) told/asked/ordered them to do stuff or not aware of their dark side until too late to aviod.

Regards
Snowleopard

WereSnowleopard
04-23-2005, 11:00 AM
To clear mess up...Had you heard that Adolf Hitler gave one of his generals a direct order to kidnap Pope Pius XII?

Regards
Snowleoaprd

Scottyman
04-23-2005, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xerx790:
Another delusional man called the Pope who thinks he is God's vicor on earth?

Give me a break, where is Martin Luther at when you need him? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

As you can tell, I'm Protestant and do not believe in all that lavious, pomp and circumstance.

They even re-wrote the Bible to suit the Church for mankinds personal selves.

What a cow load.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jesus had affair with Mary Magdalene <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, historically it was common almost law to be married as a Jewish rabbi as He was. maybe he did not have any kids, but the law would have compelled him to be married.

She is no the hoar every one confuses with the other mary. This was re written again by a Roman caesar to make Jesus look even more divine by not knowing a womans love - it was removed from the Bible.

He had to know all of mankinds emotions in order to be a perfect sacrifice. He knew love, pain, hunger, thirst, everything that is human.

Mary Magdalene is very much present in many themes, as if she was married to Him. But who knows? the bible has been perverted by man ever since the Roman Empire took it on as a religion and re wrote the thing. Yeah, the Roman Catholic. and the Pope, I mean Caesar?

OK Flame mein arsche! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. Your assertions are comical.
Evidence is neeeded to support your theories.

Space aliens seeded our planet with divine beings---because I believe it. hehehehehe

Joseph Smith was visited by Jesus and was told all the churches are wrong-- because he said so. hehe

JW's believe that the Watchtower is God's sole channel for communicating all truth---Because the Watchtower says so. hehe

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and the Bible has been perverted throughout the ages---because Xerx790 says so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You get the point. Where is the evidence besides the bias' and presuppositions that lurk in the corners of your brain?


Show me the money! LOL!

UPdate: Sorry about your mother dude.

The argument from---evil and suffering--is a common one. If you want answers, do the research. http://www.leaderu.com/ is an excellent place to start.
Here's a debate: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-nielsen1.html
you might find interesting.

Take care---

Celeon999
04-23-2005, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> To clear mess up...Had you heard that Adolf Hitler gave one of his generals a direct order to kidnap Pope Pius XII?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never heard of that.

But Hitler once said in a private talk with Himmler and Bormann :

"... when the war is won , it is one of my greatest wishes to eradicate those liars , those criminals in the vatican who are misusing religion since thousands of years for their own interests..."

"... we will hang them on the highest trees for all to see..."

But this is no proof that the vatican felt the same. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There were many people who first liked the nazis and then suddenly had to discover that the nazis .... hmmm let me say "dislike" them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Ukrainians are a good example http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Most of them greeted the germany armys as liberators from Stalin and the soviets as they arrived in the Ukraine. (And believe it or not i had to discover myself that some them still do today) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flowers , music , arms in the air and many "sieg heils!"

http://de.geocities.com/celebrationofthelizard2002/ukrainians.jpg

Thousands asked to enter the german army to fight against the soviets at the very first day.

But a few days later the Special Units of the SS and german police arrived and started their work ...


The facts suggest that most of the vaticans higher ranks thought of reaching an agreement with the nazis to simply get along with them.

Not everyone. But most of them. They knew very well that their fate was in the hands of the nazis. Especially after germany had occupied Italy.

And they had to think about the question "what will we do if we oppose them and the germans win this war ?" "what will then happen to us ?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So i think the basic "moral" of the catholic church in these times was quite questionable.

Once again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bergman
04-23-2005, 03:03 PM
I agree with that but I think a lot of people had quistionable morale, even the allied goverments. Although the catholic church had higher standars to keep.

Bockholt
04-23-2005, 03:33 PM
You must realise that Fascism was seen in the '20s, '30s and early '40s as a reasonable alternative political system by hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of people (versions of it still are by a few idiots with a big chip on their shoulder, e.g. Al Quaeda). Communism too was once thought, by millions, to be the solution to all the world's problems. A grotesque form of it still oppresses millions in China.

Problem is, freedom, truth & democracy are quite difficult to manage and require intellegence & responsibility from every citizen.

These qualities are in extremely short supply the world over. Ancient Greeks worked all this out a long, long time ago, only their dictatorships were Persians, Spartans were militarists, etc.

ivoloos
04-23-2005, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malkuth:
Considering his age.. Who wouldnt be the son of a Nazi party member? And as for the Hitler Youth, If I rember correctly all kids had to be part of that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wasn't it, that children who joined the Hitlerjugend were getting discount for schoolcost and things like that. I've read that Ratzinger (he wasn't yet a pope at that time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) was in seminary, to become a priest and used his Hitlerjugend membership to pay less for that.

Franzen
04-23-2005, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bockholt:
A grotesque form of it still oppresses millions in China.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bockholt, sorry dude. That statement just damaged your credibility with me. It's too "CNNish".
I have lived in China for 5 years now. Details are not important but lets just say I work in economical development in China and I represent American interests. I work closely with all levels of government and visit many areas in China.
Ever since the death of Mao, China's government has been working very hard to repair all damage left behind. When I speak with officials we speak of a "new democracy" that they are forming. Yes, they use the "D" word. What they are creating is a new form of government simply meant to make life easier for the average folk. Many government officials have the basic needs for life but believe me, they are far from wealthy and blend in with the masses, unlike the westrn governmental employees or representatives.
Until recently government officials at the lower levels were not even allowed to be involved in any business aside from government. As for "grotesque" form of Communism", it's working better than the grotesque forms of democracy. The only arguments I hear about democracy being better is "In a democracy you have the right to vote" and in my honest opinion this has proven to be not so good. Ex, SARS, China with it's one party government solved the problem very quickly while Canada in all it's high-tech glory with much fewer affected needed much more time. BTW, China was not to blame for the SARS issue, WHO is but that's another topic. I can prove this, no matter what CNN says.
If the right to vote is the only argument to support ideals of freedom then how valid is that freedom. The future plans here are to give people the right to vote, but in my honest opinion it's not possible or beneificial here. This is not Canada, USA, Germany, France, or any "developed nation". It is very different here. The government here is not exactly perfect but it's far from the worst.
As for oppression of millions, where? XinJiang? Tibet? In the past yes, but as I said the leaders here are still trying to correct Mao's dirty deeds. The people are not socially suppressed but more economically suppress. The government pour billions into those regions but the problem remains the same, a great lack of natural resourses.
You can trust me on this, both the Chinese and US governments use the media to control the masses. The China/US "hate affair" the eastern and western media reports are for you. In reality, it's a "love affair", this beneifits all.

Fritz Franzen

Nukem_Hicks
04-24-2005, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Ever since the death of Mao, China's government has been working very hard to repair all damage left behind.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I visited China a few years back with my father. We attended an important meeting with several high-ranking Communist party officials. They were organized into 3 groups: those who drank juice, those who drank beer, and those who drank hard liquor at the meeting. The latter were the decision-makers while the former were frequently shunned, with the beer-drinkers somewhere in the middle. It's a tradition that dates back to Stalin. Apparently the officials have yet to find a sober way to running the government.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
When I speak with officials we speak of a "new democracy" that they are forming. Yes, they use the "D" word.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lenin declared his vision of a "democratic" Russia in 1919. Stalin declared the need for a "democratic" Poland after he overran it in 1945. Castro continues to call Cuba a "democracy" and the East Germans considered their puppet state to be a "democracy." Even Mao decided to name his new government after democracy's cousin, republicanism. Thus the People's Republic of China. There's a major difference between a democracy in name and a democracy in fact. China is far from being the latter.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Ex, SARS, China with it's one party government solved the problem very quickly while Canada in all it's high-tech glory with much fewer affected needed much more time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Must be why they attempted to cover up the issue for several months, resulting in the majority of deaths in the country.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The government here is not exactly perfect but it's far from the worst.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whole world religions are banned. Chinese-style gulags are still in plentiful supply (according to Amnesty Intl., there are more political prisoners in China than there are in the rest of the world...COMBINED. Small-time drug dealers are taken to packed stadiums and shot in the back of the head. And people say that the US is too tough on drugs. China's government is certainly the most abusive government today. I invite you to prove otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You can trust me on this, both the Chinese and US governments use the media to control the masses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to Richard Nixon. Or LBJ. Or Tom DeLay. All high-powered government leaders who had their careers destroyed by the media. How can you even compare the independent US media that makes a living off of toppling gov't leaders to the state-run, state-funded Chinese media that does nothing but sing their government's praises? What's next, are you going to start comparing Pravda to Michael Moore? I may hate the man, but he certainly isn't controlled by the US government.

EDIT: I found this interesting article on MSNBC.com immediately after posting the above statement. Sounds like China is turning into a WONDERFUL place to live...if you love totalitarianism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7615928/

Franzen
04-24-2005, 03:36 AM
Hi Nukem,

What you read, whether it's CNN, NBC, or whoever isn't always accurate. They have their own agendas.
As for the drinking heirachy you mentioned, never seen it in 5 years of meeting with the officials. Sounds like an urban legend to me. Or possibly you were here 10 years ago. Today China is very different from even 5 years ago.

As for packed stadiums to view executions, that's news to me. Or like I said, perhaps 10 years ago.

As for the SARS thing, well, it was no secret here and it was bigs news in Asia 6 months before the rest of the world heard about it. The WHO knew about it before we did. Yes they did lie about it and those responsible are no longer in power. They were old school and not up with the latest generation.

This is too big a discussion for here on this forum. The only way to know the truth is to live it, as I am doing. China is far from perfect but as I said, they are trying to fix all the damage created by Moa. It's not easy when you are leading a generation that had it burned into their brains that Moa was a savior.

Just think, in Moas day they were taught in school that Mao saved China from the US and a nuclear holocaust. It will take time to change the way of thinking of 1.3 billion people.

But since I am here now and work closely with all levels of government while you make quotes from various points in history and various western organizations and medias, you won't have much of an argument.

China is not my favorite country by far but I give credit where credit is do and the same goes with critisism. If you are living in one of the western developed nations you'll have little concept of the word "change". There is something new here everyday. Coming from Toronto I saw no change or development compared with China.

But if you think you can or know someone that can more rapidly change years of environmental, economical, and human abuse, then please, send some info. Until then we should let the experts deal with it. Have you noticed the last 20 years of development here?

Fritz Franzen

Nukem_Hicks
04-24-2005, 11:40 AM
Franzen:

I study international law. I earned my first degree on Chinese politics at one of the top poli sci schools in the country that has an extremely liberal bent: many of the profs are communists themselves (literally). My sources on info there come from my own 5 trips over there in the past 6 years and from such sources as the BBC, Amnesty International, the State Dept., and the numerous refugees from China who have had first-hand experience with the horrors of the country, not the glorified version that the Chinese officials no doubt have kept you exposed to. You remind me of the Red Cross officials in WWII who demanded and got access to Auschwitz. The Nazis turned the place into a virtual paradise overnight and when the Red Cross officials left a week later, they told the world that they saw no evidence of genocide. How deceived they were.

The last time I was in China I actually got in a fair amount of trouble with the government for sneaking away from our "tour" guide so I could see the true condition of the country. The government officials weren't very happy with that; apparently our "tour guide" was a government official himself who's job was to make sure that my father and I only saw what they wanted us to see (my dad was overseeing a multi-million dollar loan for environmental cleanups there).

I invite you to read the Washington Post article that I posted above. The article cites numerous Chinese GOVERNMENT sources saying that the new dictator there wishes to copy Mao. He believes that liberalization is a sham and even hinted at a return to Mao's Cultural Revolution, an event that took tens of millions of lives and went down in history as the greatest repression of a people EVER.

You seem to feel that you know this country quite well. Frankly, you don't. You ignore every credible negative report on the country saying that nobody in the West can be credible on China. How do you discredit the thousands of political refugees who flee the country and come to the West telling stories of torture and mass executions? I should start calling you Maxim Gorky.

Lastly, my sources are just as credible as yours. The drinking episode was witnessed by ME a few years ago...not ten. It is no urban legend, I can tell you that. The public executions for drug charges were announced by Chinese government officials and are heavily documented. The most recent bout occurred in April of 2004. Hardly ten years ago. The Washington Post cites sources from high up inside the Chinese government as recently as a few days ago...hardly ten years ago.

Open your eyes. Look around you. Even the Chinese officials admit...no, brag...about their inhumane ways and methods of maintaining control. But no, I assume the Western press made those stories up as well?

Franzen
04-24-2005, 09:59 PM
Hi Nukem,

Obviously you were outside of Beijing's realm. I don't mean this as a joke or sarcasm. China is a relatively new country but not yet a nation. They claim a unity that doesn't really exist. They do work very hard to hide their terrorism and bombings, but they do happen here and often. China is held together only under military threat. While the people in control of the military are getting a stronger hold on everything inside th borders the ones far from Beijing are not gaining any ground. I would guess that every leader here has his own agenda.

I'm not denying that there are human rights abuses here on every level. But you cannot compare the west with the east and expect things to be the same. I don't claim to understand the Chinese fully. No one in their right mind, and knowing what it's like here, can say things are so easy to fix. China is simply always on the edge of caving in. Just read their history. Little has changed.

There are also splits in the party. The political events leading to the massacre of 1000s of students at Tianamen (actually MuXiDi,follow by university executions)are still happening. Selfishness is in Chinese nature. My favorite saying is "instant dictator, just add a little money to a cup of Chinese". It's really discusting to see how an affluent Chinese treats his/her countrymen.

I have a friend that frequently came here (more than 30 times with 1.5 year) to do business and has now opend a rep office. He told me the life was so easy here and he loved it. I told him it's not so and he would only understand if he lived here. He thought I was crazy. He moved here last October. Two months after he came to me and told me I was right and that he felt he made the wrong decision about coming here. He stuck it out and he's finally learnt to cope with life he.

My point of telling you this is that 5 visits is not much. Also if you were in a visiting group you will be understict control. That is also in Chinese nature, they love to control all.

As for religion, I know of three Christian churches and two Mosques in Beijing. These are mostly Chinese people that attend. I also frequently see Buddhist monks entering my building. They don't exactly ban religion here but do ban mass gatherings outside the governments influence. I must admit, I was surprised to see a Chinese man standing on a box preaching to a large group of people in a very public area. Chinese police were present but did nothing.

You have to remember that the vast majority of people here are very uneducated. This is the situation where as people like Bin Laden grow very strong and terrorism flourishes. This has happened here in the past. Two good examples are the "boxers" and "Mao's army".

China needs more time but has made great improvements in all areas. You will always have political refugees coming to our countries looking for shelter. Some are valid but many are not. The more honest people try to immigrate through the proper channels but are so often refused. Statistics show that many of these political refugees, not all, will later be connected to criminal activity. This is a bit of a problem in Canada which is why we are reviewing and making changes to our immigration policies.
Nukem, you have impressive arguments but I still think you are missing some information or experience. You seem just a little "onesided". They have a long way to go here but they are atleast improving, step by step, day by day.

BTW, last year China executed 12 high-level leaders. One example would be of a provincial leader who used his budget to pay his brother-in-law to build an international airport just outside the city. The city is in the area of the poorest people in China. No one can afford to fly and no airline was interested. In this area are 9 million farmers, uneducated, poor housing, poor medical, and little hope.


The land in this area is extremely fertile but the annual floods wipe out the crops before harvest leaving the people with nothing. My team and I have found away to create a very profitable industry from this. The only problem is they are still suffering the loss of funds that built an international airport. The project will go on but will be years in delay. In this time many people will die, suffer, and lose the chance for education, especially the women.

China has so many problems and having .2 of the world's population doesn't help. But, it is improving very quickly, no one can deny that. many of the present claims made about China are blown out of proportion or not consitant with the present situation. China knows where it was and knows where it needs to be. It's a long road with amny bumps ahead, but they are moving at a consistant pace.

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
04-24-2005, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
Franzen:

.

Open your eyes. Look around you. Even the Chinese officials admit...no, brag...about their inhumane ways and methods of maintaining control. But no, I assume the Western press made those stories up as well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nukem, even if this were true,which I cannot accept, no one in their right mind would tell you this.

Nukem_Hicks
04-24-2005, 10:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Nukem, even if this were true,which I cannot accept, no one in their right mind would tell you this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it all of the time. As I'm sure you well know, the Chinese officials don't consider their draconian methods of punishment to be a bad thing. They consider it to be proper and make no qualms about making open various parts of their government that the rest of the world finds barbaric.

Franzen
04-25-2005, 04:24 AM
Hi Nukem,

This discussion could go on forever and we've only touched the tip of the iceberg. It would be nice to meet you in person and discuss this over a cold beer or coffee but there are many miles in between. I'm sure we've both taken things a little out of context. As you may have noticed my writing is less than perfect simply cause my time is short. My apologies.

Maybe we should leave it be for we get warnings from the mods. Of course titles like the one so brilliantly created for this thread will always attract people like you and me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif We took the bait, hook, line, and sinkem.

Anyways, like I said, I think it would be interesting to discuss this in person. I'd like to know more of your opinions and thoughts but it's not possible now.

I hope there was no hard feelings, there wasn't from my side. By the way, have you heard of Silent Hunter 3? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Seems like a pretty good game but my laptop won't cooperate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
04-25-2005, 04:36 AM
Hey Nukem,

Interesting question here

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=2231032213&r=3561092213#3561092213

Do you know anything about this?

Fritz Franzen