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View Full Version : Altitude advantage and T+B fighters: any real advantage?



mandrill7
09-10-2006, 02:45 PM
I created 4 simple d/f offline missions between squadrons of Yak-1B's and 109G-6's to practice my sadly-lacking dogfighting skills. I normally fly Red. In the missions where the Yaks have the height advantage, I drop down on the 109's, but pick up so much speed that I lose my superior turning ability. How should I be fighting in an "angles fighter" when I have altitude superiority?? Or is it simply wasted on a fighter that really just wants to get horizontal and turn???

Kuna_
09-10-2006, 03:07 PM
Great deal about height advantage is surprise.
If surprise is playing no role, eg. if enemy is awared, things become much harder.

But even if you are awared alt advantage is still alt advantage, and normally you should be able to catch and deal with any opposition you may encounter.

With Ai that is not the case sometimes. As soon as you enter gun range 300-400m, they will make some neat move, enough to destroy your attempt to aim succesfully.
It works however if you overtake them at really high speed, then, usually they wont evade and will provide you the chance for succesfull burst.

With humans about, things become much much easier in this regard. Unsuspecting human will usually go down in first pass without any evading if you aim dead on. 1-2 seconds under fire (usual time of unsuspecting human reaction)... multiply that time with your cannon's rate of fire. Even if you half that figure, it's still enough to bring him down certainly.

ShVAK: 800rpm / 60s = 13,33 rounds/sec.
Per one gun. Half that figure and add
UBS: 900rpm (up to 1050rpm) / 60s = 15rounds/sec.

Using the above logic, in one second you will hit enemy with 7 UBS rounds and 6 ShVAK rounds.

All that hypothetically of course.

VW-IceFire
09-10-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
I created 4 simple d/f offline missions between squadrons of Yak-1B's and 109G-6's to practice my sadly-lacking dogfighting skills. I normally fly Red. In the missions where the Yaks have the height advantage, I drop down on the 109's, but pick up so much speed that I lose my superior turning ability. How should I be fighting in an "angles fighter" when I have altitude superiority?? Or is it simply wasted on a fighter that really just wants to get horizontal and turn???
Angles fighting is still about energy management but it is a little different. Instead of being frugal about your energy like in a BNZ, you want to spend spend spend! All for the purpose of gaining angle on the enemy.

With altitude advantage you actually should chop throttle to make your attack and keep turning and using the rudder to bleed speed during the dive phase. But hold onto just enough energy to make your attack worthwhile. You want to be able to hold him to a turn and blast him with a deflection shot and you can't do that without speed. Especially in a Yak.

FritzGryphon
09-10-2006, 04:36 PM
I think energy is a huge asset, period. Just because your plane happens to turn well doesn't mean you should give up air combat's number 1 advantage. You could dump all your speed and turnfight, only to find someone on your six.

To reduce yourself to the 109's level would also allow them the initiative, since they can outrun and outclimb you. The AI might not capitalize on this, but a human player certainly would.

I'd just fight normally, dive and climb again. You might not get a good shot every time, but at least you are not putting yourself in unecessary danger.

After doing that a while, you'll find you are slowing down with each diving attack you make. Once most of the bandits are shot down, you can transition to a tailchase on the last one. To willingly enter a turnfight, especially against multiple enemies, is folly.

Xiolablu3
09-10-2006, 05:36 PM
I still try and Energy fight in a TnB plane.

Dogfighting is just too dangerous.
Obviously they are not as good for B&Z, low dive speeds, low break up speed, poor armament, poor elevator response.

But the fact is its still safer than dogfighting.

I also have trouble dogfighting 109's in a Yak. They are quite closely matched in turn rate.

sudoku1941
09-10-2006, 09:48 PM
If you can wade through all the hot air in another thread on this forum, you'll see some reasons why, in this sim, altitude advantage is not nearly the safety net it should be.

Energy retention is poorly modeled. This means that hard-turning aircraft don't pay the penalty they should. Aircraft recovering from dives, however, they get taxed to the hilt. So, efforts to "wear down" a energy disadvantaged plane with a true B&Z style attack sequence has a much thinner margin of error than it should.

The other factor is spotting (at least in no-icon environments). You can't count on maintaining visibility on lower aircraft against the terrain, so a B&Zer can burn a lot of energy and waste a lot of opportunities because he keeps losing his quarry against the terrain. That's if he can even see any quarry from the perch to begin with.

Xiolablu3
09-10-2006, 10:21 PM
Hurray, Stiglers here to **** off the game some more.

Altitude advantage works great for me in the sim. 6 kills in one sortie in the FW190A6 last night. 3 Spit IX's 1 mossie, 1 P47 and 1 P38. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Icons are for arcade game players. Real pilots were sneaked up on all the time and 80% never saw their attacker. If only they had icons, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

sudoku1941
09-10-2006, 10:40 PM
Real pilots didn't have icons, to be sure.

But then, neither were their views of the world confined to a max of 21" wide either.

Also, you can still sneak up on people with or without icons. I do it all the time.

Also, I'm willing to BET you that your great 190 sortie had more to do with those 4 x 20mm cannon and their ability to make a kill from the shortest snapshot than any ability you had to stick around and actually "work" an energy advantage. Comes as a bonus with that airframe.

OldMan____
09-11-2006, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by sudoku1941:
Real pilots didn't have icons, to be sure.

But then, neither were their views of the world confined to a max of 21" wide either.

Also, you can still sneak up on people with or without icons. I do it all the time.

Also, I'm willing to BET you that your great 190 sortie had more to do with those 4 x 20mm cannon and their ability to make a kill from the shortest snapshot than any ability you had to stick around and actually "work" an energy advantage. Comes as a bonus with that airframe.

what?! Do you want him to not use the only advantage his plane has in game? On this argument all spit pilots shoot planes down only because of is uber capability of turning ad infinitum.


having great firepower is a key assent on a BnZ plane, or any other style focused on snapshots.