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BlakJakOfSpades
08-29-2005, 03:22 PM
Now I know this had been brought up in the past, but I think it's time to bring it up again.

Currently, it looks like theres very little chance for a Spit XIV. Now, for all the Spitfire lovers this sucks, but a higher boosted Spit IX could just do the trick. I don't know much about them, but as I understand they were more common than MkXIV's anyways, and were still a good step up from the MkIX.

If anyone has any good info on them, perhaps we could send it to Oleg, I don't want this to sound like a "the p-47, p-51, and p-38 got higher boosts, why can't the Spit" whine, but I think it's appropriate for the Spit, as there's little to no chance of a MkXIV.

What do you guys think?

JG53Frankyboy
08-29-2005, 03:24 PM
pls read here

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8371080943/p/22

BlakJakOfSpades
08-29-2005, 03:37 PM
ha, didn't see that, thanks

MEGILE
08-29-2005, 03:38 PM
Yes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spit IXs at 25 boost started operating in May 1944, and gave an increase of 30MPH in top speed over 18 boost.

Although its performance does not match the Spit XIV, it would be a suitable addition in its absence.

Slickun
08-29-2005, 03:42 PM
Rajah that. I'd love to fly one.

VW-IceFire
08-29-2005, 03:54 PM
Its not so much of an increase in top speed as it is a increase of speeds at lower altitudes. So anything under the best speed altitude (about 22,000 feet) is higher than before. A definate contender.

Oleg is thinking about it. That is good. Lots of info is around for the higher boost versions.

Shame about the XIV...no info turned up as to its whereabouts...

3.JG51_BigBear
08-29-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not so much of an increase in top speed as it is a increase of speeds at lower altitudes. So anything under the best speed altitude (about 22,000 feet) is higher than before. A definate contender.

Oleg is thinking about it. That is good. Lots of info is around for the higher boost versions.

Shame about the XIV...no info turned up as to its whereabouts...

I fly blue almost all the time but I was really hoping to see a Spit XIV. Would have made for some really tense late war scenarios. D9s and K4s v. Tempests and MkXIVs would have been great.

lrrp22
08-29-2005, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not so much of an increase in top speed as it is a increase of speeds at lower altitudes. So anything under the best speed altitude (about 22,000 feet) is higher than before. A definate contender.

Oleg is thinking about it. That is good. Lots of info is around for the higher boost versions.

Shame about the XIV...no info turned up as to its whereabouts...

...a d@mn shame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


However, a +25 lbs boost LF IX would be just about as fast as, and climb as well as a +18 lbs mk XIV at the lower altitudes. Better than nothing, I guess...

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-29-2005, 04:15 PM
ooo yeah that would be cool

That Mustang MKIII with the +25lb boost is a BEAST

JG53Frankyboy
08-29-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not so much of an increase in top speed as it is a increase of speeds at lower altitudes. So anything under the best speed altitude (about 22,000 feet) is higher than before. A definate contender.

..............

so, at all altitudes this game is played most times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

about time :
realy may 1944 ? wow !
around june-august 1944 (the time "our" Normandie map can be used) - what did the most Spitfire IX squadrons use - the 25+boost ore the "normal" one ?

lrrp22
08-29-2005, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

so, at all altitudes this game is played most times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

about time :
realy may 1944 ? wow !
around june-august 1944 (the time "our" Normandie map can be used) - what did the most Spitfire IX squadrons use - the 25+boost ore the "normal" one ?

Franky,

The +25 lbs boost Spit IX was fairly rare during the summer of '44. No.'s 1 and 165 sqn were the first to convert in early May.

The +25 lbs Spit didn't become very common until the end of '44, when around 30 squadrons of 2nd TAF LF IX's and XVI's converted to 100/150 grade. After that, the vast majority of mk IX/XVI's that the Luftwaffe met would be the 2,000 HP variety.

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 04:42 PM
I totally agree that we need another late war Spit or good allied fighter.

190D and 109K versus the Western front late war is just no contest at the moment, the best the reds have to fight back with is the Spit 8/9. Really 1942 planes, I know we have 1944 'versions' but a 'real' 1944 Spit Mark would be much better for balance.

Another faster Spit is needed to balance the game.

Hristo_
08-29-2005, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Another faster Spit is needed to balance the game.

You mean, to shut up the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
08-29-2005, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:


You mean, to shut up the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That's a bad reason.

Having the ability to create more accurate 1945 missions is a good reason http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Hristo_
08-29-2005, 04:56 PM
How can one create such missions when 262 is constantly banned ? I have yet to see a historical server in HL that has it available.

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-29-2005, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Another faster Spit is needed to balance the game.

You mean, to shut up the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...as if that would ever happen... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

p1ngu666
08-29-2005, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
How can one create such missions when 262 is constantly banned ? I have yet to see a historical server in HL that has it available.

should enable 2a and maybe the gunnearlyasbigasawhaleswilly version.

statiscaly, 262 was rare, and didnt really do mcuh

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Another faster Spit is needed to balance the game.

You mean, to shut up the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, I mean to make sure that the Allies are not a at a big disadvantage on Late War servers and the sides stay equal rather than everyone running for Blue.

Remember the latest Spit is really a 1942 design but the 1944 version of this plane. It would be so much better to have a REAL 1944 Spit, to give Reds a fighting chance.

Like you Hristo, I would rather fly Blue, but I wont join Axis if its 20 Blue versus 10 Red, its just daft.

The way things are now, people are rushing for Axis as soon as they join purely get a advantage and therefore bump up their K/D ratio. Sad but true.


If the 262 was enabled this would be even worse. If it was there, most people on blue would fly it and therefore it would not be limited in any kind of numbers as they were in the real war. I think the 262 could be used in some server scenarios but what plane do you put for the allied pilots to fly to have a good game rather than a turkey shoot?

Think of having a good, balanced game. Not about your favourite 'side' winning.

Fly all sides, keep the teams even.

BlakJakOfSpades
08-29-2005, 08:21 PM
i just want a late spit to have a late spit, being able to shoot down 109s with impunity is just a side effect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

alert_1
08-30-2005, 01:56 AM
I dont think most pls would fly Me262 if available, not everyone has the patience needed for takeoff/landing a good gunnery skills. On CZ_AH_dedicated are Me262 regularly in planeset and only 3-4 from >30 players are using them. But might be if more and more Red planes get "overboosting" there will be not too much option but fly Me262. Dont forget that LW didnt have such vast resources as Allies so they concentrated on a jets and is not fair if tehy are banned, Me262 was produced in a numbers of more then 1200...

Nubarus
08-30-2005, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Another faster Spit is needed to balance the game.

You mean, to shut up the whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy talking when you already have several 1945 planes to use.

RAF currently has none.

Hristo_
08-30-2005, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
How can one create such missions when 262 is constantly banned ? I have yet to see a historical server in HL that has it available.

should enable 2a and maybe the gunnearlyasbigasawhaleswilly version.

statiscaly, 262 was rare, and didnt really do mcuh </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statistically, P-38L Late didn't exist, yet it is the 2nd most popular plane on WarClouds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

1400+ produced isn't that rare, I'd say. Twice the number of D-9 produced, quitea lot more than Spit XIVs produced. Hmmmm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BlakJakOfSpades
08-30-2005, 03:16 AM
how many actually flew Hristo?

and how many were just fodder for the b-17's

and, i'm curious, do you really believe the p-38 wasn't running at the higher HP rating, or do you just say that for the attention? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hristo_
08-30-2005, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:


No, I mean to make sure that the Allies are not a at a big disadvantage on Late War servers and the sides stay equal rather than everyone running for Blue.


They have all the advantages, but don't know how to use them.

MkIII/Spit is the deadliest combo available. No Blue plane can run away, MkIII will catch it and once this happens, Spits will finish it.

P-47 is the terror up high. No Blue plane has a chance up there with it, except Ta 152 and it has to be flown with great skill.

P-63 is the terror down low. It outruns and outmaneuvers any 190 down there. It outruns any 109 and outmaneuvers it at high speed, while on par at low speed.

P-38L Late will catch any 109 and all 190A, outmaneuver 109 at high speeds and 190s at low speeds.

P-51 will stay untouchable to any 109 and 190 if flown how it should. As simple as that.



Remember the latest Spit is really a 1942 design but the 1944 version of this plane. It would be so much better to have a REAL 1944 Spit, to give Reds a fighting chance.


I agree. The XIV is needed. Just like Tempest. And the 262.



Like you Hristo, I would rather fly Blue, but I wont join Axis if its 20 Blue versus 10 Red, its just daft.


You make it sound like I am some sort of a opportunist. I fly Blue for as long as I fly WW2 sims. First was back in 1989 on Amiga, I believe. So, in 16 years I've been flying LW planes only. I stuck with Blue planes no matter what the odds were, from sim to sim, from patch to patch. I really don't need some Red pilot to patronize me what I should fly. Not my game, sorry.

To illustrate, I do scale modeling in my spare time. So far I have 11 WW2 planes modeled. All are LW. And while I would from time to time think about modelling a Jug or a P-38, I simply cannot force myself to do it. Simply, I'd never put enough love into it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.



The way things are now, people are rushing for Axis as soon as they join purely get a advantage and therefore bump up their K/D ratio. Sad but true.


People who always flew Blue aren't rushing anywhere. They fly what they flew before. As for former Red pilots - well, it speaks a lot about them, doesn't it ?. Rats and the sinking ship, you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.




If the 262 was enabled this would be even worse. If it was there, most people on blue would fly it and therefore it would not be limited in any kind of numbers as they were in the real war. I think the 262 could be used in some server scenarios but what plane do you put for the allied pilots to fly to have a good game rather than a turkey shoot?


When 262s bombed Remagen bridge, Spit XIVs and Tempests were flying CAP and could do nothing about it. When 262s were attacking bomber streams, P-51s could not do much either. The only time they had a chance was when a 262 pilot made a mistake or when 262s were landing/taking off.



Think of having a good, balanced game. Not about your favourite 'side' winning.


Quite contrary. When I am up, I do my best to give my enemies a hard time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Hristo_
08-30-2005, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
how many actually flew Hristo?

I'd say couple of hundred at least.

Which is far more than P-47M, MkIII and infinitely more than P-38L Late.

F19_Olli72
08-30-2005, 03:25 AM
P-38L late didnt exist to its designation only Hristo, stop trolling and accept it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its performance existed be sure.

Was there a designation "Bf109 G6 Late"? Is that a fantasy plane too? Must be.

Now...when you speak of 'historical' servers with 262s how do u mean? Historically the allies never encountered 262s in force...they more or less 'dribbled' into the units directly from factories.

In reality 262s faced 100s of bombers and several 100s escortfighters at any given mission.

So if we speak 'historical' what ratio of 262s should be available on say...a 40 ppl server? One? Two at absolute tops.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hristo_
08-30-2005, 03:27 AM
Also, a typical late war LW pilot flew 2-3 missions a day, while Allied pilots flew usually one a day.

Quite a factor in number of planes/types in the air http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hristo_
08-30-2005, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:

So if we speak 'historical' what ratio of 262s should be available on say...a 40 ppl server? One? Two at absolute tops.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Go to WarClouds and check the Red roster. It usually reads something like:

Spitfire
Spitfire
Spitfire
P-38L Late
Spitfire
Spitfire
P-38L Late
Spitfire
Spitfire
P-51D
Spitfire
Spitfire
P-38L Late
Spitfire
Spitfire

Historical ?

BlakJakOfSpades
08-30-2005, 03:38 AM
so therefore blue should be entitled to a superplane....i fail to see the logic

WOLFMondo
08-30-2005, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not so much of an increase in top speed as it is a increase of speeds at lower altitudes. So anything under the best speed altitude (about 22,000 feet) is higher than before. A definate contender.

..............

so, at all altitudes this game is played most times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

about time :
realy may 1944 ? wow !
around june-august 1944 (the time "our" Normandie map can be used) - what did the most Spitfire IX squadrons use - the 25+boost ore the "normal" one ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And at the altitudes Spitfires IX's in 1944/45 where most commonly usedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

WOLFMondo
08-30-2005, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Also, a typical late war LW pilot flew 2-3 missions a day, while Allied pilots flew usually one a day.

Quite a factor in number of planes/types in the air http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thats not all true. 8th AF fighters would do 1 a day cause thats all they could do. RAF 2nd TAF and 9th AF planes could do as many as 4 a day because they where constantly needed to support ground units. Typhoons in cab ranks would take off, be directed to support on the ground, go home land and refuel and rearm and do it all again constantly all day as did Spitfires and Tempests of the 2nd TAF.

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-30-2005, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
how many actually flew Hristo?

I'd say couple of hundred at least.

Which is far more than P-47M, MkIII and infinitely more than P-38L Late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

300 in fact

http://www.warbirdalley.com/me262.htm

ploughman
08-30-2005, 04:34 AM
Well done Whristo, you've turned this thread into a blue turbo-whine. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif If you want a server with a 262 on it, go set one up.

RedSpar
08-30-2005, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
how many actually flew Hristo?

I'd say couple of hundred at least.

Which is far more than P-47M, MkIII and infinitely more than P-38L Late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better check your facts again there Hristo:

Production numbers:

Mustang III: 872

P-47M: 130

Since it is debatable what the P-38L Late really is I won't comment on it.

There were definately more Mustang III's flying around than 262s.


Originally posted by Hristo_:
Also, a typical late war LW pilot flew 2-3 missions a day, while Allied pilots flew usually one a day.

Quite a factor in number of planes/types in the air

Allied pilots generally had to fly for far more in distance and time to get to the target area, where German pilots generally were on short missions defending the German homeland. (hence they had more of them).

I fail to see what the point of that statement is.

As for the 262 on the servers, I wouldn't see a problem with it except there is no way to limit the amount of 262s on the map. I guarantee if it was available on Warclouds at least half of the Blue side would be flying it which would not be realistic.

The bottom line is online play will never be historically realistic so it's best to achieve gameplay balance as best as possible while trying to at least get somewhat close to historical like theme.

Balance first, history second. (at least until Oleg seriously updates options of online play)

Besides Hristo, if Blues had the 262, hardly anyone would fly Red anymore and you would have no one to shoot down. Be careful what you wish for.

Lucius_Esox
08-30-2005, 05:05 AM
They have all the advantages, but don't know how to use them.

MkIII/Spit is the deadliest combo available. No Blue plane can run away, MkIII will catch it and once this happens, Spits will finish it.

P-47 is the terror up high. No Blue plane has a chance up there with it, except Ta 152 and it has to be flown with great skill.

P-63 is the terror down low. It outruns and outmaneuvers any 190 down there. It outruns any 109 and outmaneuvers it at high speed, while on par at low speed.

P-38L Late will catch any 109 and all 190A, outmaneuver 109 at high speeds and 190s at low speeds.

P-51 will stay untouchable to any 109 and 190 if flown how it should. As simple as t

So how come things are the way they are on Warclouds at the moment then,,,, oh I forgot better teamwork and pilots...

I used to think you had valid points about P38L etc but am convinced it IS self interest m8..

Please tell me that the Spit 14 was a "rare" plane late war.

I think the 14 is not there because it was SO GOOD vis a vis Luftwaffe fighters (262 excluded) and that would make balence very hard to achieve.

If the skill level and teamwork of blue is so good,,, what are you so scared of?

luftluuver
08-30-2005, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Also, a typical late war LW pilot flew 2-3 missions a day, while Allied pilots flew usually one a day.

Quite a factor in number of planes/types in the air http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well lets see. The LW would fly somewhere between 3-4hrs/day while the USAAF escort fighters would be in the air 6-8 hrs/day.

As for your 1400 (1433 really) number Hristo for 262 production there was only 936 officially delivered. The missing 497 were destroyed before delivery to the LW. There was less than 100 operational at any given time, with most being fighter bombers. So you going to fly FB missions?

Since you want to play the numbers game, ~750 Spit XIVs were built before VE DAY.

The RAF received 900 Mustang IIIS. Oh my, that is only 36 less the the number of 262s delivered to the LW. Even at VE Day, the USAAF had ~1000 P-51B/Cs, aka Mustang IIIs, still operational.

Tell me how many K-4s @ 1.98ata? According to a site I found, only 4 Gruppen with 140 'on hand' with 78 'servicable' in April 1945. The question remains of how many were actually operating at 1.98ata since there was only an order to convert to 1.98ata, never mind that 1.98 required C3+MW50.

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
So how come things are the way they are on Warclouds at the moment then,,,, oh I forgot better teamwork and pilots...

1) MG151/20 hurts now
2) single .50 cal sprayed from 400m won't cause "fuel leak of death" in FW-190
3) Spit is a WWII era fighter not an anti-gravity UFO

Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I used to think you had valid points about P38L etc but am convinced it IS self interest m8..

personal opinion...

Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
If the skill level and teamwork of blue is so good,,, what are you so scared of?
Hristo is making fun of red whiners, but I'm certain he does not believe any more then I do that blues are more skilled then reds. Or that blues *SIGNIFFICANTLY* better at teamwork. I'd say average blue is similar to average red pilot on WC.

Blue planes were far less competitive in previous patches, no doubt about that and blue pilots flew them in the only way possible to fight far superior planes. When I flew Spitfire in 3.04 I made average 3 kills per sortie. Effortlessly. Now it's much harder. but I fail to see the superiority of blue planes in warclouds, Mk108 stat *****s aside.

Now blue planes are more competitive (see points 1-2) and red "forum aces" are screaming bloody murder searching for new toys to give them back absolutely dominant plane. They don't want *balance*, they want domination and ego boosting.

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
Also, a typical late war LW pilot flew 2-3 missions a day, while Allied pilots flew usually one a day.

Quite a factor in number of planes/types in the air http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well lets see. The LW would fly somewhere between 3-4hrs/day while the USAAF escort fighters would be in the air 6-8 hrs/day.

As for your 1400 (1433 really) number Hristo for 262 production there was only 936 officially delivered. The missing 497 were destroyed before delivery to the LW. There was less than 100 operational at any given time, with most being fighter bombers. So you going to fly FB missions?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not delivered = not delivered
Not delivered != destroyed


Since you want to play the numbers game, ~750 Spit XIVs were built before VE DAY.

So which numbers are we talking about numbers built or numbers delivered. When it comes to LW it's numbers delivered. When it comes to allies it's numbers produced. Double standards?


The RAF received 900 Mustang IIIS. Oh my, that is only 36 less the the number of 262s delivered to the LW. Even at VE Day, the USAAF had ~1000 P-51B/Cs, aka Mustang IIIs, still operational.

I thought allies were outnumbered 3-1 and won the war by l337 5ki117 and technical superiority (overboosting their engines above manufacturer's standards and polishing their planes to high gloss thus blinding the luftwaffe pilots).


Tell me how many K-4s @ 1.98ata? According to a site I found, only 4 Gruppen with 140 'on hand' with 78 'servicable' in April 1945. The question remains of how many were actually operating at 1.98ata since there was only an order to convert to 1.98ata, never mind that 1.98 required C3+MW50.
Chewbacca defense?
We do not have K4 1.98 ATA in the game.

luftluuver
08-30-2005, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
We do not have K4 1.98 ATA in the game.

Yes I know that BUT have seen posts wanting it to be added.

Badsight.
08-30-2005, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
We do not have K4 1.98 ATA in the game.
the K4 in FB is supposed to be the 1944 1.80 ATA K4 that is the most commen K4 operated

but its climb rate easily exceeds the 1.98 ATA K4 reaching 6K 50 seconds faster than any 109 ever could

& thats before you touch manuel pitch , should just boost the top speed of the current K4 slightly & rename it a 1945 plane

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
We do not have K4 1.98 ATA in the game.

Yes I know that BUT have seen posts wanting it to be added. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be very simple since graphics/cockpit is the same. Just like P-38L "Late" and P-47D "Late". Why not?
also, there are Ta-152s fling regularily on dogfight servers despite the fact that they were far less common then either Me-262 or 109K4 1.98 ATA.

Lucius_Esox
08-30-2005, 06:18 AM
Now blue planes are more competitive (see points 1-2) and red "forum aces" are screaming bloody murder searching for new toys to give them back absolutely dominant plane. They don't want *balance*, they want domination and ego boosting.


Is that what you think,, Might be something to do with the fact I want to see an aircraft that in the context of this game is entirely historicaly correct to see in some numbers.

Please don't judge others by your own standards..

luftluuver
08-30-2005, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Since you want to play the numbers game, ~750 Spit XIVs were built before VE DAY.
So which numbers are we talking about numbers built or numbers delivered. When it comes to LW it's numbers delivered. When it comes to allies it's numbers produced. Double standards? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. Tell me how many of the Spitfire XIVs were destroyed before delivery from the factory to depots and squadrons.

JG53Frankyboy
08-30-2005, 06:24 AM
let me ad the following:
the only way to have truly balance on an airquake server is that both sides have the same plane............... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now blue planes are more competitive (see points 1-2) and red "forum aces" are screaming bloody murder searching for new toys to give them back absolutely dominant plane. They don't want *balance*, they want domination and ego boosting.
Is that what you think,, Might be something to do with the fact I want to see an aircraft that in the context of this game is entirely historicaly correct to see in some numbers.

Please don't judge others by your own standards.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The more the merrier that's what I say. I have nothing against new planes in FB be it Spits or 109s. I won't question YOUR personal motivation, but let's be real about it.

For seekers-of-the-uberplanes-that-won-the-war: for every allied boosted or late plane You'll find that there usually is a german counterpart (well documented too). Uberplane pissing contest is pointless anyway, since clearly the Me-262 is way above all. Think of it as 1944 F-22 Raptor although it's debatable if Raptor introduced such a quantum leap as the Me-262 did.

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Since you want to play the numbers game, ~750 Spit XIVs were built before VE DAY.
So which numbers are we talking about numbers built or numbers delivered. When it comes to LW it's numbers delivered. When it comes to allies it's numbers produced. Double standards? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. Tell me how many of the Spitfire XIVs were destroyed before delivery from the factory to depots and squadrons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
delivered <= produced
delivered = produced - not-delivered-for-whatever-reason

It's complex. what theatre, date, unit, % servicable...etc. Irrelevant for the discussion anyway.

ploughman
08-30-2005, 06:46 AM
Irrelevant for the discussion anyway.

Yer think?

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Irrelevant for the discussion anyway.

Yer think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.
Proof: Ta-152H is available on most servers although it's quite irrelevant in the big picture and was quite a rare bird. It's not considered uber so it does not matter that it's non-historical.

ploughman
08-30-2005, 07:08 AM
Oh. Ok. I was going for the 'Spit IX with +25lbs boost is not in the game but the Me-262 is so why not stop whining about it and start your own server instead of spamming another Spitfire thread' angle on lack of relevancy myself.

Anyway, I thought Me-262 led to server lag. It's true the Ta-152 is the preferred ride of the top scoring Blue player on Warclouds at the moment, luckily it's not considered uber, only irrelevant.

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Oh. Ok. I was going for the 'Spit IX with +25lbs boost is not in the game but the Me-262 is so why not stop whining about it and start your own server instead of spamming another Spitfire thread' angle on lack of relevancy myself.

Read. Process the information you read. Read with understanding. What am I whining about? Did I say anything against inclusion of the new Spit? You made Your statement clear: "I want Spit IX 25lbs boost". What's to debate or whine about?
I'm only saying that numbers aren't deciding factor for including an aircraft in the game. Or planeset. Performance is.


Anyway, I thought Me-262 led to server lag.

It has been proven that the inclusion of 262 on WC would cause the Internet to crash and subsequently the downfall of western civilization as we know it.


It's true the Ta-152 is the preferred ride of the top scoring Blue player on Warclouds at the moment

No, it's A9/D9 IIRC. Hristo?

ploughman
08-30-2005, 08:40 AM
"Read. Process the information you read. Read with understanding. What am I whining about? Did I say anything against inclusion of the new Spit? You made Your statement clear: "I want Spit IX 25lbs boost". What's to debate or whine about?"

I never said you were whining, I was just approaching irrelevance from a different angle. Spit threads get spammed fairly instantly by fanboys whining on about some late war mod to some 109 that they really must have and why isn't the 262 allowed on warclouds and...etc...t'was that phenomenon to which I was referring. I'm sorry if you thought I was having a go at you. I did not say I wanted a Spit IX mit 25lbs in the game, although I have before. Would be nice though, don't you think. You want to talk about it? Oleg has said "I'll think about it" which at least means he's aware of the deep seated need some of us feel for a more complete set of Spits.

"It has been proven that the inclusion of 262 on WC would cause the Internet to crash and subsequently the downfall of western civilization as we know it."

Of this there can be little doubt, now if the Luft lobby want to risk a return to the Dark Ages just so they can ride rampant on Warclouds until the lights go out, they really should think again.

"No, it's A9/D9 IIRC. Hristo?"

On current streak that CSL_Kocour bloke was top ace last I looked, Western Front server, Ta-152H. 20 sorties in it, next favourite was a D-9, 2 sorties. Does Whristo have the most accumulated kills? He really needs to get out more.

What's with all the plane types on Warclouds having positive K/D ratios? They can't all be shooting more of the other down, or is the site demonstrating a more relaxed approach to stats than usual?

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 08:57 AM
25lb boost IX is similer time frame to mw50 tbh

Hetzer_II
08-30-2005, 09:27 AM
If the 25boost IX or the 21XIV behave like the IX we currently have in Fb it would realy be terrible.. watch what kind of maneuvers this Plane can do... all a Spit has to do is to fly 5-10 loopings and no blue plane will be able to catch him.. i just watched such a play yesterday on warclouds... not less than 4 109 and 2 190 were trying to catch a single Spiftire which did nothing than to loop all the time.... Yes sure, its a 43 plane and is good enough to employ half of the blue team in a late 44 environment.. And you keep on caling for a boosted version?
Dont get me wrong.. you can have youre boosted toys, but please also be such keen on realism if you see such behaviour....

Just my thoughts

WOLFMondo
08-30-2005, 09:39 AM
All the Spitfire can do down low is loop and turn like crazy. Everthing else is light years ahead in speed so its a sitting duck in a run.

The be all and end all is the Spitfire IX with 25lbs boost flew in very large numbers over Europe. At a guess Spitfires with 25lbs boosted engines probably flew more sorties in a single week than the Me 262 did in its entire operational career.

faustnik
08-30-2005, 09:46 AM
It is kind of funny that Warclouds becomes the measuring stick for the online community. Even at that it is only one map that people are talking about.

Sparx and the Warclouds crew are setting the online standards for PF. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 10:07 AM
wonder why spit pilot was looping all the time, hm perhaps its because he was fighting k4s and 190s

he cant run, he cant outclimb the k4

WOLFMondo
08-30-2005, 10:22 AM
Yup but in some guys eyes thats all wrong cause there blue plane can't do that trick.

MEGILE
08-30-2005, 10:28 AM
A spit XIV would be difficult to fight.. and it should be
If it outclasses its LW counter parts then crimea river. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but thats a moot point, as we won't get it in game.

faustnik
08-30-2005, 10:41 AM
It is amazing how many people think a loop and turn advantage is the end of story for fighter ability. The 4.01 Fw190 can turn but, the 3.04 version absolutely could not. The Fw190A6 had about a 15km speed advatage over the Spit IXc at low level in 3.04 and that was all we needed to make it a great fight.

With the Fw190D and the Spit IX it is currently no fight. The Spit simply can't keep up. I disagree with P1ng on the climb. A climb advatage is not needed, or even important, if you have enough of a speed advantage.

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 11:14 AM
depends on the fight faustnik, full real that u fly, speed is probably a bigger advantage, more relaxed settings then climb is probably better.

depends if u wanna fight, or just wanna bomb or whatever then go home.

also a g2 or g6 could probably stay with a Ix now, they handle so so good, really easy to fly. flew a coop last night with it, against hurri's and spitVIII, was SO easy.

faustnik
08-30-2005, 11:34 AM
also a g2 or g6 could probably stay with a Ix now, they handle so so good, really easy to fly. flew a coop last night with it, against hurri's and spitVIII, was SO easy.

Let's keep our fingers crossed for the patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 11:43 AM
in 3.X the g6late really wasnt that far from spit in terms of speed,climb,turn etc. worse, but not by a massive amount

stathem
08-30-2005, 12:15 PM
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players? Don't worry, the G2 would possibly outturn and loop inside the later Spits and Tempests.. at low speeds anyway. Or would it go the way of the WC_43 server?

You see for every rushed into service-early-in- desperation LW plane there was a documented, well tested Allied plane to match. And the Allied ones were usually there first. Hell we've not even gone into the prototypes or ones being kept back for the Pacific, P51H, Hornet, Tempest II.

As regards the 262 I was going to do the Remagen encounter for hopeful inclusion on Greatergreen, but didn't bother when the Tempest was only AI. Maybe I'll resurect the idea, but the 262 should still stay banned because there's a big part of it's FM missing, namely;

Compressor Stall

From the article €œFlying the Sabre€ in Aeroplane, May 2005:

€œIf you ever wondered what keeps a jet engine€s flame coming out of the back instead of the front, the short answer is that the pressure at the front of the combustion chamber is higher than the pressure at the rear. When this is momentarily not so, the flame does indeed come out of the front. Slicing the nose round at high altitude and low speed can disturb the flow of air to the point that there is not enough to compress, reversing the thrust form the engine. Abrupt movement of the throttle at altitude will have the same result, owing to the fuel control€s inability to moderate the fuel flow, allowing either too much or too little fuel to disturb the flame pattern in the combustion chamber€

From Mike Spick€s LW Fighter Aces :

€œOnce the 262 was in the air€¦If the throttles were handled injudiciously, compressor stalls and flame-out followed€¦.In combat, hard manoeuvring with high angles of attack was avoided. Not only could this cause compressor stalling, but the increase in induced drag bled off speed at an alarming rate, which could only be slowly recovered€


Now whilst the €œinjudicious throttle use€ is modelled, the high AoA compressor stall most definitely isn€t. You can stall fight a 262 for fun, do 100 mph spiral climbs with huge rudder input, do tailslides and very low speed hammerhead reversals. Don€t take my word for it, try it yourself.

To me that€s fair enough, this is primarily a prop sim, and it€s probably far too much effort to fix, especially since, at the moment, the 262 (and YP-80) is a marginal plane. But all the €œwe want the 262 €˜cos the Spit/Mustang/P38 is a UFO€ crowd and FM complainers should be aware of the truth €" the 262 FM is just as dubious, and probably a lot more so, than any other.

Hetzer_II
08-30-2005, 12:34 PM
Besides the story about the 262 the truth ist that the only thing a 190 can do against the current IX is to have a huge advantage when beginning the fight or to run. You simply have 0 chance if youre in a 1vs1 fight. Think about how this will be with a boosted IX.. i see times again where i press strng+e before the enemy kills be so he dont becomes the points...

faustnik
08-30-2005, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
Besides the story about the 262 the truth ist that the only thing a 190 can do against the current IX is to have a huge advantage when beginning the fight or to run. You simply have 0 chance if youre in a 1vs1 fight. Think about how this will be with a boosted IX.. i see times again where i press strng+e before the enemy kills be so he dont becomes the points...

Hetzer,

You need a good wingman.

stathem
08-30-2005, 12:47 PM
Hetzer has a good wingman.. the one who blew me into small pieces the last time I was chasing his 190 in Spitsvs109s...in a MkIX.

faustnik
08-30-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Hetzer has a good wingman.. the one who blew me into small pieces the last time I was chasing his 190 in Spitsvs109s...in a MkIX.

Then he already knows that the Fw190A5-A9 is not outclassed by the Spit IX. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

anarchy52
08-30-2005, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
You see for every rushed into service-early-in- desperation LW plane there was a documented, well tested Allied plane to match.

Like the P-38 Late?

Lots of stuff isn't modelled in FB for instance radiator DM. Or engine management (take a look at pilot's manual of P-38/P-51 etc. and you'll see what I mean).

As for 262 speed bleed I remember reading allied memo which states e-bleed as being less then prop fighters quite contrary to your source
. I'll look it up.

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 12:53 PM
roc advantage, and turn are most important in 1v1

with better climb the IX is always (if the pilot knows what hes doing, anyways) above the 190.

190 or any plane of similer type u need a team, or atleast a wingman, and drag and bag tatics

stathem
08-30-2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
You see for every rushed into service-early-in- desperation LW plane there was a documented, well tested Allied plane to match.

Like the P-38 Late?

Lots of stuff isn't modelled in FB for instance radiator DM. Or engine management (take a look at pilot's manual of P-38/P-51 etc. and you'll see what I mean).

As for 262 speed bleed I remember reading allied memo which states e-bleed as being less then prop fighters quite contrary to your source
. I'll look it up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not even going to go into the P38..too big a can of worms already.

I think Mick Spick's source was some fella called Galland iirc, dunno, I'll look it up.

stathem
08-30-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Hetzer has a good wingman.. the one who blew me into small pieces the last time I was chasing his 190 in Spitsvs109s...in a MkIX.

Then he already knows that the Fw190A5-A9 is not outclassed by the Spit IX. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I know I should've stayed in the P51D I was flying previously in there...

faustnik
08-30-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

190 or any plane of similer type u need a team, or atleast a wingman, and drag and bag tatics

I can't think of a better plane for the D&B than the Fw190. It's got all the firepower you can ask for, it's fast, and it can change direction very quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

faustnik
08-30-2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by stathem:


And I know I should've stayed in the P51D I was flying previously in there...

A little hint from the "other side" Stathem, the Fw190s most difficult opponent in the ETO is the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If we get a Mustang IV in the sim, life will be rough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

stathem
08-30-2005, 01:07 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i know, I know, but I'd got a little bored on a previous sorite after waiting 20 mins at 25,000' for the 109 I'd riddled to try to land... and I was supposed to be doing low level bomber escort.

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

190 or any plane of similer type u need a team, or atleast a wingman, and drag and bag tatics

I can't think of a better plane for the D&B than the Fw190. It's got all the firepower you can ask for, it's fast, and it can change direction very quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, the only problem is when ppl abuse that, few days ago in a coop i spent 2-3mins on the 6 of a dora, guy stick sturing nearly the entire time. i was in a yak9b couldint get in a sustained burst. curiously my yak shock while turning with him. eventully another 190 ksploded me. but its really annoying and unrelistic, irl his pilot would be feeling very ill and would have vomited everywhere. also a dora should easily outrun a yak9b?

faustnik
08-30-2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:

190 or any plane of similer type u need a team, or atleast a wingman, and drag and bag tatics

yeah, the only problem is when ppl abuse that, few days ago in a coop i spent 2-3mins on the 6 of a dora, guy stick sturing nearly the entire time. i was in a yak9b couldint get in a sustained burst. curiously my yak shock while turning with him. eventully another 190 ksploded me. but its really annoying and unrelistic, irl his pilot would be feeling very ill and would have vomited everywhere. also a dora should easily outrun a yak9b? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the point of stick sturring, what a BS tactic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif It does nothing to help your position. The 190 could be working on a scissors and possibly reverse on you with it.

Like you say, the guy could flat outrun you anyway.

Hetzer_II
08-30-2005, 01:19 PM
@stathem
Yes my wingman arrived not a minute to early... you followed me when i disengage from a fight with a IX.. i had a damaged engine.
That was one of the fights i meant, i was in a d9 and had a little advantage, but after i did my first maneuver the Spit already was on my six, he must have flown a very tight turn but had almost the same speed as me after a much smoother turn... and no, he couldnt have more energy than me, he was about 500 Meters below me and i was cruising at about 560 tas.. he didnt came from above, he just fought out a turn-fight with a 109..
he sprayed a bit with his hispanos from about 350 Meters and got my engine damaged, i simply dove away and tried to escape when you screw me up ;-) we did a little scissoring and my squadmate arrived just at the right time.

You know, i dont deny any fight.. i have fair chances with any 190 against 47,38,51 etc... but if i face a Spit with almost same energy i realy can nothing else than to run or to call for help...

And im not sure if noone than me has a bad feeling about such fights...

stathem
08-30-2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
@stathem
Yes my wingman arrived not a minute to early... you followed me when i disengage from a fight with a IX.. i had a damaged engine.
That was one of the fights i meant, i was in a d9 and had a little advantage, but after i did my first maneuver the Spit already was on my six, he must have flown a very tight turn but had almost the same speed as me after a much smoother turn... and no, he couldnt have more energy than me, he was about 500 Meters below me and i was cruising at about 560 tas.. he didnt came from above, he just fought out a turn-fight with a 109..
he sprayed a bit with his hispanos from about 350 Meters and got my engine damaged, i simply dove away and tried to escape when you screw me up ;-) we did a little scissoring and my squadmate arrived just at the right time.

You know, i dont deny any fight.. i have fair chances with any 190 against 47,38,51 etc... but if i face a Spit with almost same energy i realy can nothing else than to run or to call for help...

And im not sure if noone than me has a bad feeling about such fights...

Don't worry Hetzer, it was good fun. I'm just another numb-arsed Spit jockey who forgot to check his mirrors. When you fly IX's a bit you learn to make good e-saving turns, otherwise you are blacked out or dead or both. I learnt mine in the original Il2 (but only last year). If I can get the hang of this new-fangled X-52 instead of the worn out Logitech I was using then, I might even go back online sometime.

MEGILE
08-30-2005, 01:40 PM
How else do you want it Hetzer? Are you suggesting a Dora9 should be able to outturn the SpitIXe in a sustained horizontal fight.
I have no doubt the Spitfire was a nuisance for pilots in real life also.. fortunatly its short range keept it at bay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
08-30-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Megile:

I have no doubt the Spitfire was a nuisance for pilots in real life also.. fortunatly its short range keept it at bay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes. "Auchtung Spitfire" means "LOOK OUT, SPITFIRES! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif " not "hey look, it's a Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ".

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hetzer_II
08-30-2005, 02:11 PM
No i dont want a d9 outturning a IX.. but the case was that i attacked from above with a massiv advantage of speed, did some energy fighting maneuver(high yoyo inturnung to the spit) and the spit easily got behind me. It was like i didnt had any energy-advantage at all.

I believe the Spit was a superb aircraft and a very dangerous one.. but what i see here dont fits to what i think about the relative performance of a 43 ac against a late 44 one....
And if i now think about what it will be like when we get a late Spit.. oh my lord

p.s. "faustnik"...
Butcher-bird also dont mean "Butterflieger"...

F19_Olli72
08-30-2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

190 or any plane of similer type u need a team, or atleast a wingman, and drag and bag tatics

I can't think of a better plane for the D&B than the Fw190. It's got all the firepower you can ask for, it's fast, and it can change direction very quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, the only problem is when ppl abuse that, few days ago in a coop i spent 2-3mins on the 6 of a dora, guy stick sturing nearly the entire time. i was in a yak9b couldint get in a sustained burst. curiously my yak shock while turning with him. eventully another 190 ksploded me. but its really annoying and unrelistic, irl his pilot would be feeling very ill and would have vomited everywhere. also a dora should easily outrun a yak9b? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pingu, are you talking about the FW 'fishflop'? If so, then yes i agree...the fishflop is used way too often online...ruins tracks & makes it silly and arcadish. The worst thing is that it works, very hard to hit (specially with 50s only planes like Mustang and Jug) and the FW can do it all day long without losing too much energy.

Unfortunatly, there is no pilot fatigue modelled, that would get rid of the fishfloppers really quick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 02:41 PM
yep, well yak9 has limited ammo, central guns with no spray, so i couldnt really do much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

oleg should model vomit in BOB, so stick steers coat the ENTIRE cockpit with vomit. no window view, no instruments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:

I have no doubt the Spitfire was a nuisance for pilots in real life also.. fortunatly its short range keept it at bay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes. "Auchtung Spitfire" means "LOOK OUT, SPITFIRES! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif " not "hey look, it's a Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ".

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really? never knew that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
08-30-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
No i dont want a d9 outturning a IX.. but the case was that i attacked from above with a massiv advantage of speed, did some energy fighting maneuver(high yoyo inturnung to the spit) and the spit easily got behind me. It was like i didnt had any energy-advantage at all.

I believe the Spit was a superb aircraft and a very dangerous one.. but what i see here dont fits to what i think about the relative performance of a 43 ac against a late 44 one....
And if i now think about what it will be like when we get a late Spit.. oh my lord

p.s. "faustnik"...
Butcher-bird also dont mean "Butterflieger"...
You must have bled alot of energy...and a high yo-yo does bleed energy. Thats the idea. You trade your speed for a bit of an altitude gain and a better angle. Probably the Spitfire was going at a good pace and with your loss of energy, he could turn around and angle fight you to death. I wasn't there so I can't properly comment but I have to be honest and say that you probably messed it up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm with Faustnik, FW190 is one of the best around and frankly there isn't a Spitfire around that can keep up with a later model FW190. Its not a vacum environment...you fly in teams and the Focke will wipe the floor with anything it comes across.

In a FW190D-9, the only thing that truly scares me is a P-51 with energy advantage or a P-47 with a veteran and experience pilot behind the controls. Everything else I can outrun, outfight, and/or outshoot. I'm a firm believer in the superior capabilities afforded by the FW190 when flown properly. My top two aircraft on UK-Dedicated are the Spitfire and the various versions of the FW190...so I see both sides of the picture. In a Spitfire, you feel really confident with that turning ability...but when the skies are filled with Spitfires and FW190s and Bf109s...you get worried really fast as you know you can't disengage if the 109s and 190s you're facing are 1944 models.

Lucius_Esox
08-30-2005, 03:40 PM
anarchy52 wrote


The more the merrier that's what I say. I have nothing against new planes in FB be it Spits or 109s. I won't question YOUR personal motivation, but let's be real about it.


The last bit in this statement is what concerns me, i.e. "lets be real about it".

Precisley what I am trying to be isn't it ???

Again someone tell me that in the context of mid to late war western front the MK 14 was a "rare" or largely irrelevant plane, especially in dogfighting terms,,,


Of course it wasn't,, why isn't it in then???


?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

lrrp22
08-30-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?



Very well put, stathem.



.

JG53Frankyboy
08-30-2005, 05:17 PM
western front server , i realy dont like dogfightservers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , should close at a timeframe "end 1943- early 1944"

with for red:
Spitfire IXc
Spitfire LF.Vb (CW)
P-51B
P-47D-10/22
P-38J
A-20G

blue:
Bf109G6Late (unfortunatly you cant prevent MK108)
Fw190A-6
Fw190A-8 (same as Fw190A-7) - also MK108 proplem
Bf110G2

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

for later ones, just keep the obsolete Spitfires out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
08-30-2005, 07:05 PM
u forgot b25 franky http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

once heard someone say something like "but the b25 is a 44 aircraft and this is a 42 server!" or something similer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hetzer_II
08-30-2005, 11:48 PM
icefire.. looks at your pm´s

ty

Abbuzze
08-31-2005, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
@stathem
Yes my wingman arrived not a minute to early... you followed me when i disengage from a fight with a IX.. i had a damaged engine.
That was one of the fights i meant, i was in a d9 and had a little advantage, but after i did my first maneuver the Spit already was on my six, he must have flown a very tight turn but had almost the same speed as me after a much smoother turn... and no, he couldnt have more energy than me, he was about 500 Meters below me and i was cruising at about 560 tas.. he didnt came from above, he just fought out a turn-fight with a 109..
he sprayed a bit with his hispanos from about 350 Meters and got my engine damaged, i simply dove away and tried to escape when you screw me up ;-) we did a little scissoring and my squadmate arrived just at the right time.

You know, i dont deny any fight.. i have fair chances with any 190 against 47,38,51 etc... but if i face a Spit with almost same energy i realy can nothing else than to run or to call for help...

And im not sure if noone than me has a bad feeling about such fights...

The old problem:
Running don´t win fights. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BlakJakOfSpades
08-31-2005, 01:06 PM
running saves your life, so you can fight another day, and with a wingman it does win fights

Xiolablu3
09-01-2005, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
No i dont want a d9 outturning a IX.. but the case was that i attacked from above with a massiv advantage of speed, did some energy fighting maneuver(high yoyo inturnung to the spit) and the spit easily got behind me. It was like i didnt had any energy-advantage at all.

I believe the Spit was a superb aircraft and a very dangerous one.. but what i see here dont fits to what i think about the relative performance of a 43 ac against a late 44 one....
And if i now think about what it will be like when we get a late Spit.. oh my lord

p.s. "faustnik"...
Butcher-bird also dont mean "Butterflieger"...

I OFTEN have this happen to me with ALL planes, its really annoying. (Esp La's)

Either they do a REALLY tight turn to end up on your tail, and even tho you are diving fast the other plane has seemingly matched your speed in a second and is actually catching you!

Other times happily flying along and seeing a plane miles below, thinking I'd better climb just in case he starts to come up underneath me. But hes still coming up, He's still COMING UP, HES STILL COMING UP!, He shoots and Bang my Elevators or Arilons are gone, plane effectively dead without some risky landing manouvre.

Some manouvres do seem a bit ridiculous but I guess you cannot know the exact position and speed of the other guy. Plus I'll bet we have all done this to someone else before. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeinzBar
09-01-2005, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 11:30 AM
im thinkin alot fly the g2 in that mission http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

faustnik
09-01-2005, 11:34 AM
Most of you guys have already seen this but, here is the direct comparison of +18 vs. +25 boost on the Spit IX.

Spit IX boost comparison (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/merlin66_18_25.jpg)

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 12:10 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

HeinzBar
09-01-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
im thinkin alot fly the g2 in that mission http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You'd be grounded 50% of the time since the G2 is only on 1 of the 2 maps. The funny thing is, I've have yet to hear any of the blue pilots complain about the lack of late war LW AC.

HB

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 12:16 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

stathem
09-01-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! Heinz. I've not been in WC for quite a while, breaking in a new stick etc, nad you probably wouldn't remember me from the time I was. That sounds fun.

A small however though... I'd bet in the majority of cases an Anton could fly the full width of a map with a Mustang mkIII parked behind and not suffer enough critical damage to come down. (certainly not until the cavalry arrived). So long as he didn't do anything stupid like try to turn. Don't get me wrong, I love the MkIII, it's a wonderfull addition nad I fly it as often as i can, but it don't compare to having a Tempest spitting 20mm shells at you...

The HF is a fantastic aircraft, nigh on unbeatable over 20,000 feet. But no blue flyer worth his salt is going to get shot down by one he's seen early enough because you're just going to split-S and dive for the deck where the HF is marginally quicker than an LF V. The other night offline I tried to follow a Friedrich down about 15,000 feet in a standard IX and bits of my aircraft came off. Again it's hardly a Mk21 is it?

The P38 Late... I don't even have an opinion.

Heinz, of course I know there'd be some players... There'd be Hristo at least.

I always spent a lot more time in gg. There used to be a Dunkirk map featuring the Mk V. vs the Emil (4 or 7, can't remeber which.). It used to empty the server. After some complaints, the Spit was switched for the Gladiator (which I happily voted for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif)

Bingo, full server.

WOLFMondo
09-01-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
im thinkin alot fly the g2 in that mission http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You'd be grounded 50% of the time since the G2 is only on 1 of the 2 maps. The funny thing is, I've have yet to hear any of the blue pilots complain about the lack of late war LW AC.

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no reason to complain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif both 109's and 190's are there in there late war forms. even the a6 is a pretty good 44/45 a/c when it comes down to it.

lbhskier37
09-01-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! Heinz. I've not been in WC for quite a while, breaking in a new stick etc, nad you probably wouldn't remember me from the time I was. That sounds fun.

A small however though... I'd bet in the majority of cases an Anton could fly the full width of a map with a Mustang mkIII parked behind and not suffer enough critical damage to come down. (certainly not until the cavalry arrived). So long as he didn't do anything stupid like try to turn. Don't get me wrong, I love the MkIII, it's a wonderfull addition nad I fly it as often as i can, but it don't compare to having a Tempest spitting 20mm shells at you...

The HF is a fantastic aircraft, nigh on unbeatable over 20,000 feet. But no blue flyer worth his salt is going to get shot down by one he's seen early enough because you're just going to split-S and dive for the deck where the HF is marginally quicker than an LF V. The other night offline I tried to follow a Friedrich down about 15,000 feet in a standard IX and bits of my aircraft came off. Again it's hardly a Mk21 is it?

The P38 Late... I don't even have an opinion.

Heinz, of course I know there'd be some players... There'd be Hristo at least.

I always spent a lot more time in gg. There used to be a Dunkirk map featuring the Mk V. vs the Emil (4 or 7, can't remeber which.). It used to empty the server. After some complaints, the Spit was switched for the Gladiator (which I happily voted for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif)

Bingo, full server. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There also was a BoB server like that. A P51D vs. TA152 is not even in the same league as the overmatch of a Spit V vs. a 109 E. I can see why the server emptied. By the time the Vs were out, Emils were strictly escorted ground attack aircraft. I still think the latewar red planes in the game are plenty a match for the latewar blue planes in the game. Someone in a 190D that can beat me in a Mk II would most likely beat me even if we swapped planes. I think this red side vacating latewar servers is just a case of a bunch of babies whining "whaaaa they have 1945 planes, why can't we, whaaa". The capabilities of all the latewar fighters are close enough that its all pilot skill and situation. There are some legitemate problems with some red planes (and blue planes too), and a late british plane would be cool to go with what we got, but maybe some onliners need to take a try at something that isn't a latewar WF server for a change.

stathem
09-01-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:

There also was a BoB server like that. A P51D vs. TA152 is not even in the same league as the overmatch of a Spit V vs. a 109 E. I can see why the server emptied.

So you agree with me; it's the scale of the difference that counts? See my first post.

btw no need to have a pop, I fly Glads on that map and get my share of kills.

I think simulated-BoB map makers should currently consider the Vc (2 cannon). It's got pretty much the same speed on the deck as the Emil, 20mph less if you use the prop pitch.

lbhskier37
09-01-2005, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:

There also was a BoB server like that. A P51D vs. TA152 is not even in the same league as the overmatch of a Spit V vs. a 109 E. I can see why the server emptied.

So you agree with me; it's the scale of the difference that counts? See my first post.

btw no need to have a pop, I fly Glads on that map and get my share of kills.

I think simulated-BoB map makers should currently consider the Vc (2 cannon). It's got pretty much the same speed on the deck as the Emil, 20mph less if you use the prop pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IDK, in my opinion BoB server makers should just use the hurricanes and Glads. Even the Vc is a huge step above what a Spit mkI or even mkII was. And besides hurricanes did most of the fighting anyways. If any mkV spit is stuck in a BoB server, the F2 should be there too.

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 05:19 PM
i think the spit mk1/2 was faster on the deck than email, not sure tho.

let the panik comence http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
09-01-2005, 05:30 PM
I guess it depends on boost levels:

Spit Mk1 vs. Bf109E Performance (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html)

p1ngu666
09-01-2005, 06:10 PM
yeah faus,

lookin forward to teh whines like, spitfire outran my 109! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Kurfurst__
09-02-2005, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
I guess it depends on boost levels:

Spit Mk1 vs. Bf109E Performance (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html)

Just as a sidenote, that`s quite a typical article from Mike William`s, compared the worst Emil configuration with the best Spit config. Basically the Emil is the weakest engine, and even that is not shown with it`s special 1-min low altitude power.. not to say the 100-octane emils with the DB 601N engine, these were around in some numbers from the beginning of the battle, though Mike claims they weren`t - I guess it`s just the usual attempt from him make 'proper' comparisions.

The truth is more closer to what I have seen, the Brits had 100 octane gradually introduced during the Battle with higher boost, much like CS props. There`s no overnight changeover in real life, thus the plane`s performance in one period could vary greatly. The LW otoh introduced the 601N powered Emils which were very good, but quite few until about November etc. You could have quite a difference between worst and best, ie. a 601N power Emil facing a two-pitch prop Spit on 87 octane fuel and normal boost, or the opposite setup a Spit with all goodies vs. a 'basic' Emil.

p1ngu666
09-02-2005, 09:05 AM
galland had the N engine in his squadron/his plane didnt he?

csThor
09-02-2005, 09:24 AM
Yup - Galland had one at least from September 1940 on, maybe even two planes.

I still hope we'll see all major Emil variants in BoB - E-1, E-3 and E-4 (E-4/N maybe in an addon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

Kurfurst__
09-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
galland had the N engine in his squadron/his plane didnt he?

I am not sure which unit had them. Galland certainly had a 601N power 109F towards the end of the battle, though, and so did Moelders, in early October. Guess they didn`t miss those Emils, eh?

In the Mankau Mtt-zestorer book, it is noted that 1 Gruppe (=Wing) of Bf 109s and 3 Gruppes of Bf 110 had been supplied with DB 601N powered aircraft in June or July. These were the 109E-4/Ns. The number remained as such for a few months. Basically, there was shortage of powerplants, some had to be in reserve, plus the 109F production, that just started in the summer had to be supplied with the new engine as well, so it caused delays and Emils did not have a priority. The true great 601N user was the 109E-7/N, of which hundreds were built, I am not sure the start date, didn`t get Radinger`s Emil book yet... E-7 prod started in the summer as well, so E-7/N was probably autoumnish, and run out early in 1941.

The DB 601N was a redesigned engine, operating at higher boost, and on 100 octane (natural) C-2 fuel. Best thing about it was that it was also much better engine at altitude, though from what I have seen, the 601N of the Emils and Friedrichs differed, the latter had better superchargers for the engine. I guess the E-x/Ns topped roughly around 580-590 kph vs. normal 601A powered versions.

stathem
09-02-2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:

There also was a BoB server like that. A P51D vs. TA152 is not even in the same league as the overmatch of a Spit V vs. a 109 E. I can see why the server emptied.

So you agree with me; it's the scale of the difference that counts? See my first post.

btw no need to have a pop, I fly Glads on that map and get my share of kills.

I think simulated-BoB map makers should currently consider the Vc (2 cannon). It's got pretty much the same speed on the deck as the Emil, 20mph less if you use the prop pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IDK, in my opinion BoB server makers should just use the hurricanes and Glads. Even the Vc is a huge step above what a Spit mkI or even mkII was. And besides hurricanes did most of the fighting anyways. If any mkV spit is stuck in a BoB server, the F2 should be there too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So to summarise your position; Late 1940, Eastern front spec Emails vs early 1941 spec Spit V's is grossly unfair, gives no chance to the Luftwaffe flyers and should never be allowed.

and...

1943 performance Spitfires vs 1945 Doras (arguably the best wartime propfighter produced by the German, or indeed any other, nation) or K4s is perfectly fine: because it's pilot skill that counts?

Either you're being deliberatly obtuse to try to wind me up, or you need to get down to the opticians to have those blue-tinted contacts taken out. I think you're proving my point better than I can.

Kurfurst__
09-02-2005, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
1943 performance Spitfires vs 1945 Doras (arguably the best wartime propfighter produced by the German, or indeed any other, nation) or K4s is perfectly fine: because it's pilot skill that counts?

Excuse me, but the situation in 1944/45 was that the Spit IX was the most by far the most common Spitfire around, and it faced D-9s and K-4s. Of course you can`t model here the decline of LW pilot quality, but then again, it`s a historical fact that by the time the '1943' Spit IX was in service in numbers by 1944, it become a bit old vs the new stuff. You can`t blame other`s that, for example in June 1943 there were still as many as 37 '1941' Mk V RAF Squadrons around, but only 10 of the '1943' Spit IX..

stathem
09-02-2005, 12:19 PM
Sorry Kurfurst, that ain't the point. Read Killa's posts.

faustnik
09-02-2005, 12:34 PM
The argurment itself is a little silly isn't it? If you don't like servers with '45 LW planes against '43/44 Spits don't join it. If you don't like a server with '40 Emils against '42 Spit Vbs, don't join it. Neither is historical. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

stathem
09-02-2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
The argurment itself is a little silly isn't it? If you don't like servers with '45 LW planes against '43/44 Spits don't join it. If you don't like a server with '40 Emils against '42 Spit Vbs, don't join it. Neither is historical. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Yep, absolutely.

Badsight.
09-02-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
I fly Glads on that map and get my share of kills. this shouldnt surprise you

Emils have weak engines to small MG round hits & their top speed advantage is hard pressed to win over on Gladiators extreme DF ability

Spit Mk5 is a total overmatch against Emils

its absolutly zero contest . you want competition then make it Hurricanes

BlakJakOfSpades
09-02-2005, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
1943 performance Spitfires vs 1945 Doras (arguably the best wartime propfighter produced by the German, or indeed any other, nation) or K4s is perfectly fine: because it's pilot skill that counts?

Excuse me, but the situation in 1944/45 was that the Spit IX was the most by far the most common Spitfire around, and it faced D-9s and K-4s. Of course you can`t model here the decline of LW pilot quality, but then again, it`s a historical fact that by the time the '1943' Spit IX was in service in numbers by 1944, it become a bit old vs the new stuff. You can`t blame other`s that, for example in June 1943 there were still as many as 37 '1941' Mk V RAF Squadrons around, but only 10 of the '1943' Spit IX.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very funny, you say the most common spit around was the Mk IX, I believe you, and you say they faced d-9's and k-4's, I believe you, however you fail to mention what the most common 109s and 190's that they would typically face were don't you? Using your logic I could say well g-6's were the most common 109's around (don't know for sure) and they faced spit mk XIV's, so there would be no reason to complain if we could have a server set up this way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HellToupee
09-02-2005, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and i belive both those maps put the LW on defence, so p38Late going for ground targets is easy meat even for a g2. The 190 still takes 1a bazillion hits to destroy, and the alies planes still discintagrate to single mg151s.

Kurfurst__
09-03-2005, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
Very funny, you say the most common spit around was the Mk IX, I believe you, and you say they faced d-9's and k-4's, I believe you, however you fail to mention what the most common 109s and 190's that they would typically face were don't you? Using your logic I could say well g-6's were the most common 109's around (don't know for sure) and they faced spit mk XIV's, so there would be no reason to complain if we could have a server set up this way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The most common 109s from strenght reports appear to be the G-14/AS (=G-6/As of game), G-10 and K-4. All pretty much the same performance. These amounted 65% of the available 109 strenght of roughly 1400 aircraft, rest being G-14s. G-6s in fact were very rare by that time, there were some 60 or so of them around in Jan 1945. 190s - dunno. I guess it`s a eqaul tossup between A-8s, A-9s and D-9.

So, you could say that that a G-10/K-4/G-6AS vs. MkIXs is a historically typical setup for 44/45, not much to complain about because it was that way.

lbhskier37
09-03-2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by stathem:


So to summarise your position; Late 1940, Eastern front spec Emails vs early 1941 spec Spit V's is grossly unfair, gives no chance to the Luftwaffe flyers and should never be allowed.

and...

1943 performance Spitfires vs 1945 Doras (arguably the best wartime propfighter produced by the German, or indeed any other, nation) or K4s is perfectly fine: because it's pilot skill that counts?

Either you're being deliberatly obtuse to try to wind me up, or you need to get down to the opticians to have those blue-tinted contacts taken out. I think you're proving my point better than I can.

I think your getting a bit "luftwhiner paranoid" here. I think a 1943 server with D9s would be rediculus too. I've never seen a server with just 1943 spec spits vs. latewar german stuff, there are always later allied stuff to fly. I have nothing against getting a +25lb spit. Too me though, spits and 109s all should have been taken out of service by 1943 and replaced with more usefull planes like 190s and tempest/typhoon

luftluuver
09-03-2005, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The most common 109s from strenght reports appear to be the G-14/AS (=G-6/As of game), G-10 and K-4. All pretty much the same performance. These amounted 65% of the available 109 strenght of roughly 1400 aircraft, rest being G-14s. G-6s in fact were very rare by that time, there were some 60 or so of them around in Jan 1945. 190s - dunno. I guess it`s a eqaul tossup between A-8s, A-9s and D-9.

So, you could say that that a G-10/K-4/G-6AS vs. MkIXs is a historically typical setup for 44/45, not much to complain about because it was that way.

That might be true from Oct/Nov 1944 but not true for the Jan to Oct period of 1944. Therefore, the typical 109s would be G-6 and G-14 types for 1944.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:


So to summarise your position; Late 1940, Eastern front spec Emails vs early 1941 spec Spit V's is grossly unfair, gives no chance to the Luftwaffe flyers and should never be allowed.

and...

1943 performance Spitfires vs 1945 Doras (arguably the best wartime propfighter produced by the German, or indeed any other, nation) or K4s is perfectly fine: because it's pilot skill that counts?

Either you're being deliberatly obtuse to try to wind me up, or you need to get down to the opticians to have those blue-tinted contacts taken out. I think you're proving my point better than I can.

I think your getting a bit "luftwhiner paranoid" here. I think a 1943 server with D9s would be rediculus too. I've never seen a server with just 1943 spec spits vs. latewar german stuff, there are always later allied stuff to fly. I have nothing against getting a +25lb spit. Too me though, spits and 109s all should have been taken out of service by 1943 and replaced with more usefull planes like 190s and tempest/typhoon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

190s and tempest/typhoon where pants at high altitude, formidable at low/medium alts tho

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 10:59 AM
dora9 and k4 where september october planes at the earliest i think

Kurfurst__
09-03-2005, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
That might be true from Oct/Nov 1944 but not true for the Jan to Oct period of 1944. Therefore, the typical 109s would be G-6 and G-14 types for 1944.

...yep, and our G-6/AS which also appears ealry in 1944. Basically it`s the same as the G-10. The problem of the RAF guys with the '1943'(which served more like in 1944, 1945) Spit IX is that it`s slower than the opposition which could outrun it. While it`s as fast as the G-6, the G-14 and the G-6/AS outruns it with ease, especially the latter at altitude.

The G-14 and the +25lbs Spit IXLF would be almost perfectly matched though.

stathem
09-03-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
G-6s in fact were very rare by that time, there were some 60 or so of them around in Jan 1945.


Odd then, that on May 5th 1945, after the attempted evacuation of what was left of the Luftwaffe from Scheswig-Holstein to Southern Norway, of the 101 aircraft that made it, 9% were Bf109s. And of that number, a full 33% were G-6s. There were no K-4s.


Oh, don't bother Kurfurst old chap. I can already see the BS excuses forming in your head, that they were training planes, or Wilde Sau Nightfighters, or planned museum exhibits. You're probably right - and in your head you always are. (btw I also have FW190 figures, if anyone is genuinely interested - they are considerably more interesting)

@Killa.

Faustnik has already solved this dispute. I'm going to continue to fly Oscars in the PTO before converting to the Mosquito when it arrives. You may do as you please.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 12:13 PM
the real g6as didnt have mw50, just a engine for higher alt.

think jagd said there where a few mw50 109s about early 44, mainly for trying to catch mossies.

mw50 is a summer/autumn 44 thing really.

also irl pilots would use it for only a few mins, while ingame i can effectivly use it for 26-8 mins or whatever untill it runs out..

stathem
09-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the real g6as didnt have mw50, just a engine for higher alt.

think jagd said there where a few mw50 109s about early 44, mainly for trying to catch mossies.

mw50 is a summer/autumn 44 thing really.

also irl pilots would use it for only a few mins, while ingame i can effectivly use it for 26-8 mins or whatever untill it runs out..

And the real G/AS was slower on the deck than a standard G6, on account of having the larger Db603 blower.

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 12:44 PM
yep
i dont know if it had the smoothed out cowling, or the bumbs of the normal g6

luftluuver
09-03-2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
...yep, and our G-6/AS which also appears ealry in 1944. Basically it`s the same as the G-10. The problem of the RAF guys with the '1943'(which served more like in 1944, 1945) Spit IX is that it`s slower than the opposition which could outrun it. While it`s as fast as the G-6, the G-14 and the G-6/AS outruns it with ease, especially the latter at altitude.

The G-14 and the +25lbs Spit IXLF would be almost perfectly matched though.

The G-6/AS were a very small percentage of the G-6 type around (something like maybe 600 out of 1000s produced)in 1944.

Maddox Games has really screwed up the Spitfire line up.

MEGILE
09-03-2005, 02:11 PM
Sure MW50 equipped 109s met Spit LFIX +18 boost in combat.. but they certainly weren't the only variants to meet the Luftwaffe in 44/45.

G6A/S, G10 & K4 vs. ONLY Spit LFIXe isn't fully realistic, like Spit XIVs fighting only G6s would not be.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeinzBar
09-03-2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and i belive both those maps put the LW on defence, so p38Late going for ground targets is easy meat even for a g2. The 190 still takes 1a bazillion hits to destroy, and the alies planes still discintagrate to single mg151s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
Actually, the two maps are split to be fair. One map w/ the LW on the offense and the other w/ the LW on defense. As a point, Desperate Experten, which the LW are on the offensive, includes the G2. Here is a list of Desperate Experten:

Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5
Ju-87G-1

Desperate Experten 2 doesn't offer the G2. The LW planes for Experten 2 includes the following:

Bf-109E-7
Bf-109E-7Z
Bf-109F-4
Bf-109G-6
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5

Now, the Allies have the following to fly on both maps:

A-20G
B-25J-1NA
P-38J
P-38L_Late
P-39Q-10
P-40M
P-47D-27
P-51D-20NA
MustangIII
P-63C
SpitfireMkVc4xH
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeHF

As you see, the Allies have all the late war goodies w/some early makes thrown in for fun. The most important thing though, both sides have fun and both maps are challenging.

G2 are easily beaten by any p38 pilot worth his salt. Granted, the FW's do take a lot of damage to the fuselage. However, after all this time, one would guess to start aiming for the FWs wings which are quite vulnerable to a .50s, let alone, Hispanos.

HB

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 07:21 PM
ive taken down ai 190s without too much hassle, problem is u never really know when there "done"

HellToupee
09-03-2005, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine in parallel universe where this sim has all these planes;

You have a WF server with a planeset:

Mk IX Spit at 25lb boost (read G10/G14)
Tempest V iic (read Dora9)
MkXIV Spit (read Dora9/K4)
Mk 21 Spit (read Ta152)

The real P47M (Arado killer)
Overboosted Mustangs

And the blue side is limited to no later than G6 and A6,possibly A8.

Do you think this server would have any players?

S!,
Actually, yes. There are two maps on WarClouds WF that put forth just such a scenerio. The Allies have the standard late war AC, while the LW are limited to early 1943 planes. LW have as their most advanced fighters the 109g6 and fw190a5. Remember, the Allies have AC such as the Mustang III, p38L late, Spitfire IX HF, etc. These two maps stay full with the number of LW pilots outnumbering the Allies. Many times, the LW actually wins the maps. Granted, it's tough for LW to complete their mission w/o the mission being won by the Allies due to pilot kills, but fun non-the-less http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and i belive both those maps put the LW on defence, so p38Late going for ground targets is easy meat even for a g2. The 190 still takes 1a bazillion hits to destroy, and the alies planes still discintagrate to single mg151s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
Actually, the two maps are split to be fair. One map w/ the LW on the offense and the other w/ the LW on defense. As a point, Desperate Experten, which the LW are on the offensive, includes the G2. Here is a list of Desperate Experten:

Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5
Ju-87G-1

Desperate Experten 2 doesn't offer the G2. The LW planes for Experten 2 includes the following:

Bf-109E-7
Bf-109E-7Z
Bf-109F-4
Bf-109G-6
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5

Now, the Allies have the following to fly on both maps:

A-20G
B-25J-1NA
P-38J
P-38L_Late
P-39Q-10
P-40M
P-47D-27
P-51D-20NA
MustangIII
P-63C
SpitfireMkVc4xH
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeHF

As you see, the Allies have all the late war goodies w/some early makes thrown in for fun. The most important thing though, both sides have fun and both maps are challenging.

G2 are easily beaten by any p38 pilot worth his salt. Granted, the FW's do take a lot of damage to the fuselage. However, after all this time, one would guess to start aiming for the FWs wings which are quite vulnerable to a .50s, let alone, Hispanos.

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

190s wings are venerable to dammage yes but they wont pop off easyly at all, around 5 20mm hits avg to the wing to pop it off.

However ive never actually flown in the mission where they are on the attack, i suspect they dont even bother after the targets like every other map.

HeinzBar
09-03-2005, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
190s wings are venerable to dammage yes but they wont pop off easyly at all, around 5 20mm hits avg to the wing to pop it off.

However ive never actually flown in the mission where they are on the attack, I suspect they dont even bother after the targets like every other map.

That's just it. You don't have to shoot the wings off. A couple of rounds into the FWs wings and the FW loses it's aerilon, loses 40km, etc....essentially, the it's out of the fight running for home. I usually let wounded planes go knowing I'll get credit if they run for base and land.

LOL, I hear the exact same comment about Red not hitting their targets from Blue. Unless Workky is flying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I get to hear it from both sides consistantly.

HB

HellToupee
09-04-2005, 04:33 AM
even with wing dammage they can still stay in the fight also with most wins based off pilot kills and not ground targets since no one bothers letting them get home isnt going to win u the game.

Badsight.
09-04-2005, 07:08 AM
Yaks too used to be amazingly strong

now FW & Yaks alike are out of the Fight with shot wings

FW-190s are famous in FB for massive performance loss when shot in the wings . as are Hayates

remember the first TWO YEARS of FB ?

version 1.0 to version 1.22 , the main Red fighters were incredibly strong with MASSIVE "fight-on" ability

remember what FW-190 fans had to use during IL2:Sturmovik ? a flying Trabant with 6 pea shooters

FW-190 wings will seperate when you get a hit on the ammo store , its right there where the panel line is nearly inline with the inboard cannon

p1ngu666
09-04-2005, 08:07 AM
i shoot stuff till it falls out of the sky, i may leave stuff crippled if there is other more pressing matters

HeinzBar
09-04-2005, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
even with wing dammage they can still stay in the fight also with most wins based off pilot kills and not ground targets since no one bothers letting them get home isnt going to win u the game.

S!,
HellToupee, you're completely wrong about how most maps are won. You can go on and on in your guesses, but I have the stats that say otherwise. Most maps are won by people working as a team to knock out the targets specified in the briefing. You may want to study the stat pages before making claims you can't back up.

Do you honestly know why a map is won via pilot kills in WC? Because 4/5 of time, it's the foolish spitfire pilot chasing a crippled plane running for home while not caring that he has 3 or 4 109/190s on his six. Scratch another red pilot..5 minutes later, the same thing happens. The other reason for pilot kills are the bottom feeding spitfires and g2s. Round and round, and round they go until a smart pilot comes in at high speed, kills them and zooms away.

Those damaged FWs that are staying in the fight either have no choice due to lack of speed, control and maneuverability, or the pilot is just plain dumb.

HB

Aaron_GT
09-04-2005, 04:13 PM
Odd then, that on May 5th 1945, after the attempted evacuation of what was left of the Luftwaffe from Scheswig-Holstein to Southern Norway, of the 101 aircraft that made it, 9% were Bf109s. And of that number, a full 33% were G-6s. There were no K-4s.

That's 3 planes. It's a small sample so you can't draw any particular conclusion from the percentages. Based on large sample sizes (the whole of the LW 6 months earlier) the G-6 was proportionately much rarer. The 3 G-6s might have been 3 planes put into storage pending conversion to newer standards that were never converted but were pulled out of storage to make the trip to Norway.

To be honest looking at the dregs that made it to Norway is like making conclusions about what coins people use to make purchases by looking at the one instance when they empty the pennies out of their change jar.

HellToupee
09-04-2005, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
even with wing dammage they can still stay in the fight also with most wins based off pilot kills and not ground targets since no one bothers letting them get home isnt going to win u the game.

S!,
HellToupee, you're completely wrong about how most maps are won. You can go on and on in your guesses, but I have the stats that say otherwise. Most maps are won by people working as a team to knock out the targets specified in the briefing. You may want to study the stat pages before making claims you can't back up.

Do you honestly know why a map is won via pilot kills in WC? Because 4/5 of time, it's the foolish spitfire pilot chasing a crippled plane running for home while not caring that he has 3 or 4 109/190s on his six. Scratch another red pilot..5 minutes later, the same thing happens. The other reason for pilot kills are the bottom feeding spitfires and g2s. Round and round, and round they go until a smart pilot comes in at high speed, kills them and zooms away.

Those damaged FWs that are staying in the fight either have no choice due to lack of speed, control and maneuverability, or the pilot is just plain dumb.

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pilot kills win alot of maps, its not just red chasing blue across their lines, blue is usually down to their last 5 pilot by the time the game is over. Looking at the stat pages tells me no one wins maps, fact was for the past 3 nights on defense i saw the ground units are under attack message about 3 times all missions we lost were pilot kills. Why because i can put over 80 rounds of 50cal and 20mm into a ta152 and get one control loss and light smoke and hes able to fly off home no probs, where a half second burst to a spitfire can take off both its wings. Dammaged 190s can stay in the fight especally in large fights with plently of opportunities, hell i stayed in a fight once with no aleron controls and shot down a bird on al allies six and made it home. Many planes not just 190 suffer massive performace loss with dammaged wings also.

HeinzBar
09-05-2005, 12:01 AM
S!,
You really need to take a closer look at the map stats Helltoupee. You're wrong again for the past 3 nights. If you haven't seen the targets under attack in grid XX, then you haven't been paying attention. I'll break down the last 60 maps for you and you'll see that maps won by pilot kills is much lower than you believe.

Last 60 maps played produced:

21 victories for one side or the other.

14 of the 21 were won by completing the mission parameters.

7 maps were won by pilot deaths. Of these five, all were maps were Red was on the offensive and it was the job of blue to stop them. Two maps, where blue was on the offensive, were won by killing the red pilots rather than completing the mission.

39 maps were a draw.

Like I said about the damage, we can debate this round and around. Wings will come off regardless of the aircraft depending on where you hit them and w/ what weapon. 4x151/20 or 1 mk108 & 2 151/20 are potent combinations. Are you saying that the spit should survive after being hit w/ such weapons? As of 9/3/05, out of the last 5 planes you shot down, 3 of them were FWs (2xa5, 1xa9) and the other were 2 109g6A/S. The last 5 planes to shoot you down were 3x109g6A/S, 1x109g6, and 1x190a6. So, it doesn't seem that you have a problem shooting down FWs, but it does seem that FWs have trouble shooting you down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I suspect that if you were engaged w/ a spit in your damaged 190, the outcome would have planted you 6ft under. As I see it, you were fortunate to clear your allie's six on an unsuspecting target and not be jumped by a low flying spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HB

BlakJakOfSpades
09-05-2005, 01:03 AM
wait, i thought we were talking about spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kurfurst__
09-05-2005, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the real g6as didnt have mw50, just a engine for higher alt.

think jagd said there where a few mw50 109s about early 44, mainly for trying to catch mossies.

mw50 is a summer/autumn 44 thing really.

also irl pilots would use it for only a few mins, while ingame i can effectivly use it for 26-8 mins or whatever untill it runs out..

And the real G/AS was slower on the deck than a standard G6, on account of having the larger Db603 blower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

G-6/AS was produced with and without MW-50 as well, usually the former G-6/U2 planes were converted to AS standards this way (tohse had GM-1 tank already, and could be easily converted to MW50). It`s not true the G-6/AS did not have MW-50. Plus MW-50 did not come in the summer, it came quite a bit earlier in the Spring, if you read Heinz Knoke`s book, he writes on 28 April 1944, he mentions they received 'brand new aircraft with high altitude compressor and methanol injection'. In fact the planes had been identified from photographs as G-5/AS with MW. G-6/AS was in production in December, 1943.

Altogether 686 G-6/AS aircraft were built or converted from existing airfames, along with 76 G-5/AS, 16 G-5/R2/AS, 68 G-5/R6/AS, the only difference being G-5s having pressurized cocpits for the pilot`s comfort at high altitudes.

As for the G-6/AS performance vs. the normal G-6. YEP, it was slower, the GLC official specs give 528 kph vs. 530 kph at SL, without MW50. Yeah they were slower. At altitude, the G-6/AS did 672 vs. 640... MW 50 equpped G-6/AS, or the G-14/AS did 560 kph at SL.

Oh, and stathem, here`s "my BS excuse"... hard facts, as usual, Bf 109 strenght on 31Jan 1945, on hand with combat units, for the entire Luftwaffe :

Bf 109 G-6 : 71 (4,9 %)
Bf 109 G14 and G-14/U4 : 431 (30 %)
Bf 109 G-10, G-10/U4 and G-14/AS : 568 and Bf 109 G-10/R6* : 51 (43,1 %)
Bf 109 K-4 : 314 (21,8 %)

* G-10/R6 was a bad-wheater variant, differing only in having PKS autopilot.

As the other, reasonable person can see, there were 71 G-6s around vs. 314 K-4s at that time. G-6s were largely withdrawn to operational training units (Erganzungseinheiten) by this time.

HeinzBar
09-05-2005, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
wait, i thought we were talking about spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S!,
Sorry, you're right. Sorry for taking the thread on a new tangent. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HB

p1ngu666
09-05-2005, 09:54 AM
i did say there was mw50 about in early 44, but it didnt suddenly appear in all 109s overnight one day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

g14 is basicaly a g6 with mw50 isnt it?
g10 similer, but not as much

Kurfurst__
09-05-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i did say there was mw50 about in early 44, but it didnt suddenly appear in all 109s overnight one day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yep, sorry. Only on the /U2 ones first, for these could be easily converted. In May there was an order for 250 conversions.


g14 is basicaly a g6 with mw50 isnt it?

Yep, G-14 is basically just the G-6, updated with all the goodies, plus it had MW as factory standard.



g10 similer, but not as much

The Germans referred to it as 'bastard aircraft'. In fact it was another G-6 airframe, but with many stuff including engine, electric system coming from the 109K. A Half-Gustav, Half-Kurfurst.

BlakJakOfSpades
09-05-2005, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by HeinzBar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
wait, i thought we were talking about spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S!,
Sorry, you're right. Sorry for taking the thread on a new tangent. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh no problem at all, i know how it goes, it's so easy to get off topic, and it was nice to have a break from the constant back and fourth about spits from the usual suspects

stathem
09-05-2005, 02:52 PM
Apologies, BlakJak, but if you€ll allow me one final joust with Kurfurst before we get back to the subject of Spitfires...


Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

G-6/AS was produced with and without MW-50 as well, usually the former G-6/U2 planes were converted to AS standards this way (tohse had GM-1 tank already, and could be easily converted to MW50). It`s not true the G-6/AS did not have MW-50. Plus MW-50 did not come in the summer, it came quite a bit earlier in the Spring, if you read Heinz Knoke`s book, he writes on 28 April 1944, he mentions they received 'brand new aircraft with high altitude compressor and methanol injection'. In fact the planes had been identified from photographs as G-5/AS with MW. G-6/AS was in production in December, 1943.

Altogether 686 G-6/AS aircraft were built or converted from existing airfames, along with 76 G-5/AS, 16 G-5/R2/AS, 68 G-5/R6/AS, the only difference being G-5s having pressurized cocpits for the pilot`s comfort at high altitudes.

As for the G-6/AS performance vs. the normal G-6. YEP, it was slower, the GLC official specs give 528 kph vs. 530 kph at SL, without MW50. Yeah they were slower. At altitude, the G-6/AS did 672 vs. 640... MW 50 equpped G-6/AS, or the G-14/AS did 560 kph at SL.

Oh, and stathem, here`s "my BS excuse"... hard facts, as usual, Bf 109 strenght on 31Jan 1945, on hand with combat units, for the entire Luftwaffe :

Bf 109 G-6 : 71 (4,9 %)
Bf 109 G14 and G-14/U4 : 431 (30 %)
Bf 109 G-10, G-10/U4 and G-14/AS : 568 and Bf 109 G-10/R6* : 51 (43,1 %)
Bf 109 K-4 : 314 (21,8 %)

* G-10/R6 was a bad-wheater variant, differing only in having PKS autopilot.

As the other, reasonable person can see, there were 71 G-6s around vs. 314 K-4s at that time. G-6s were largely withdrawn to operational training units (Erganzungseinheiten) by this time.


Ahh, Heinz Knocke. If you€ll allow me Kurfurst, (and I€m sure you will, since I€ve seen you use this technique many times when faced with evidence from combat veterans who memoirs disagree with your dogma) I think that you should read Knocke a little more critically. It€s apparent from his diary that much of what he wrote that summer is more than a little confused by his psychological state, heavily traumatised as he was by the terrible odds he faced in the €œfighter graveyard€ during the first 5 months of 1944.

Even before this time, some of his recollections are, shall we say, a little hazy. The most obvious of these is his claim that he shot down one of the Mosquitoes that infamously raided Berlin during Goering€s speech. Now admittedly, one of those was lost €" but the raid is well documented to have taken place in January 1943, and Knocke gives the date as 6th November 1942, to tie in with an unidentified twin he shot down that day. Indeed if you visit the website dedicated to him (which link I have unfortunately misplaced €" but I€m sure you have) you can see from the guncam shot that it is clearly not a Mosquito. I also have my doubts about his claim to have invented air-to-air bombing, but I have no proof or indication that he didn€t.

But what if we are to believe his diary as Gospel? Well, on 23rd May 1941, on his arrival at II/Jg52 at Ostend, he receives his first fighting 109 €" an Emil. And yet we are told many times that Emils fighting Spitfire V€s in 1941 is unhistorical! Are we to believe that Knocke had the only Emil in the Channel area perhaps?

Further, on the 2nd October 1942 €"
€œThe Messerschmitt 109E was replaced several months ago by the improved 109F. A few days ago the first models of the €œG€ type started coming off the assembly lines€

We all know that G€s were in production from May 1942, to save you the hassle of refuting this one.

One final note, and this is the one I€d ask people to consider most carefully- the 28th August 1944. Here he tells us a protracted story which leads to his last combat flight.

€œThis morning the Squadron serviceability report lists only four aircraft as operational. Two others with badly twisted fuselages are capable of non-operational flying only. They are such battered old crates I am not going to be responsible for sending any of my men into combat in them.
So at 0600 hours there is a telephone call from the Chief Staff officer at corps HQ. He gives me a furious reprimand.
€œThis morning you reported only four aircraft available for operations. I have just learned that you can still fly six. Are you crazy? Do you realise the seriousness of the situation? It is nothing but sabotage; and I am not going to tolerate it. Every one of your aircraft is to fly. That is an order!€


Now maybe that gives some insight into the state of play with the Luftwaffe in the second half of 1944. If true, it calls into question all the figures which you endlessly spew forth to try to convince us that 1) the Luftwaffe was not beaten. And - 2) that they were always way ahead technically of the allies.

1/3 of the Luftwaffe consisted of non-combat worthy crates? Or not? MW50 in April 1944? Or not?

And btw, 31st Jan 1945, what boost pressure were most MkIX's on the western front running? How many squadrons of XIV's? Or Tempests? or, for that matter, Typhoons? (which I reckon would be a real killer within the confines of this Sim, were it present.)

p1ngu666
09-05-2005, 03:31 PM
mw50 started off as a boost to catch mossies (in vain or similer is what jadg said if i remmber correctly)

so there was mw50, but it was *really* rare

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 03:37 PM
IIRC, +25 LBs on the Spit IX LF was authorized in early 1944, and in late 1944 about 25 squadrons oF Spit IX in the 2nd TAF were running on 150 grade fuel

4,000 posts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LStarosta
09-05-2005, 04:16 PM
Congrats Megile. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

BlakJakOfSpades
09-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Apologies, BlakJak, but if you€ll allow me one final joust with Kurfurst before we get back to the subject of Spitfires...


surely, as it is the noblest of causes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 04:53 PM
Oleg said he'd think about it... so all we can do is wait, and hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The Spit IX LF deserves 25 boost http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ImpStarDuece
09-05-2005, 05:54 PM
What we really need is a Spitfire XVI.

The Mk 16 was a standard Spitfire IX airframe with a Packard built Merlin 266. The designation was altered because the engine, a US copy of the Merlin 66, was made to US measurements with US equipment and ground staff had to be aware of the difference as it required different tools when being worked on.

Spitfire XVIs started squadron service in September/October 1944. The majority of them had the 'bubble' rear view canopy and the 'E' type armament of 2 Hispano 20mm cannon (with 140 RPG) and 2 Browning M2 12.7mm HMG (with 250 RPG).

The Mk XVI also had increased fuel tankage, usually an additional 70 imperial gallons in the rear fuselage and another 30 gal in the wing leading edges. Most of these modifications were also present in late build Mk IXs, and were refitted into Spitfires already in service giving the mid to late 1944 Spitfire IX/XVI around 3.5-4 hours endurance, almost double that of the 1942 version. Spitfire XVIs also usually recieved the British Mk II gyro computing gunsight, which was a great boon to pilots.

Merlin 266 engines were cleared for the 'Basta' (Italian for 'more than enough') modifictions along with the Rolls Royce standard Merlin 66.

What the XVI would give us is;

1. Another Spitfire designation, to avoid confustion

2. A 1944-45 Spitfire variant with appropriate modifications;
A) E type wing
B) Bubble canopy
C) Increased fuel
D) +25lbs boost
E) Gyro gunsight.

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 05:59 PM
A XVI would be nice.. but it requires 3d modelling so there is no way we will see it.

ImpStarDuece
09-05-2005, 06:00 PM
Yes, I know. But day-dreaming is quite nice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


Actually, a XVI without the bubble canopy but with 25lbs boost wouldn't require any additional modeling.

p1ngu666
09-05-2005, 06:15 PM
someone might have the model of the gryo gunsight aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

range isnt that important ingame either

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 07:23 PM
I forsee in BoB... all Spitfires. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

HayateAce
09-05-2005, 08:04 PM
If this game was made historical, then Spitfire for late 1944 was FAR better than any 109 and the crying would not subside until the gameplay was restored.

FACT: Spitfire was better than 109 in MOST MKs throughout the conflict, and had a much better long-range development capability.

Missy109 is end of teh road obsolete in early 1943.

faustnik
09-05-2005, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Spitfire was better than 109 in MOST MKs throughout the conflict


A lot of LW pilots thought that the Bf109Fs were superior to the Spit Vbs. That's the about only time (that I've come across) when it sounded like the LW felt it's Bf109s were superior to the Spitfire.

p1ngu666
09-05-2005, 08:45 PM
ive heard that, and ive heard the opposite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

id say the spitfire was the better plane, in the interceptor roll, by alittle bit..

the mark VIII is probably my favourite merlin mark, nicest lookin imo, good performance aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

i like the PR versions aswell, clean lines http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

typhoon, those 4 cannons sticking out make it look **** intimidating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HeinzBar
09-05-2005, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
If this game was made historical, then Spitfire for late 1944 was FAR better than any 109 and the crying would not subside until the gameplay was restored.

FACT: Spitfire was better than 109 in MOST MKs throughout the conflict, and had a much better long-range development capability.

Missy109 is end of teh road obsolete in early 1943.

Well, as usual, no facts to back up the statements. It just leaves the field open for Kurfurst and others with their charts and graphs to come in here and prove otherwise. There is one FACT that remains true: HayateAce remains the number one spammer in this forum for unsupported rhetoric.

HB

Badsight.
09-05-2005, 10:04 PM
the F Model , more to the point the F4 model is the only Bf-109 to come close to the Spitfire in terms of wingloading to power/weight

this combo + the fact that the Slats were altered on the F model made this model the best Bf-109 for knife fighting

but the MkV is a whole lot different to the Mk1&2 , that power boost it recieved was just what it needed

by 1944 it was a mixed bag of Bf-109 models & parts fighting highly boosted P-51s & P-47s as well as boosted Mk8 & 9 Spitfire's

then the Mk-14 came along & it could out-climb & out-speed every single Messerchmitt prop fighter untill the few 1.98ATA K4s took off in may 1945

yes the Mk14 was heavier than the Mk9 , moreso than any previous increase in weight - but the Mk9s were just Mk5s with a more powerfull Merlin V-12