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alphalvr
04-25-2009, 05:30 PM
hi

ive flown sims for fun off and on over the years even had several r/c aircraft as a kid (they usually lasted 1 flight) and have only recently got my hands on some rudde pedals as ive never been able to to fully get used to twist on the stick. (ie im gripping so tight in combat i suddenly realise im on `full` right or right or left rudder)

anyways, the way i have been turning over the last twenty years is.... `roll`(up to 90degrees) then `pull` the stick through the turn, never ever considering the use of rudder.

im trying to break this habit but would appreciate somone explaining why im trying to break it?

currently from posts ive read ive noticed the norm is to roll 30-50degrees and add rudder to turn but why? whats the differnce between my old method and this one. in what situation are either better?

any time anyone could give to explain the differences and benefits of each method would be very much appreciated.

ta

ps. my rudder use was limited to helping to line up for a shot, ive found also it useful/necessary for takeoff and landing, apart from that my rudder use has been `none` except by accident.

alphalvr
04-25-2009, 05:30 PM
hi

ive flown sims for fun off and on over the years even had several r/c aircraft as a kid (they usually lasted 1 flight) and have only recently got my hands on some rudde pedals as ive never been able to to fully get used to twist on the stick. (ie im gripping so tight in combat i suddenly realise im on `full` right or right or left rudder)

anyways, the way i have been turning over the last twenty years is.... `roll`(up to 90degrees) then `pull` the stick through the turn, never ever considering the use of rudder.

im trying to break this habit but would appreciate somone explaining why im trying to break it?

currently from posts ive read ive noticed the norm is to roll 30-50degrees and add rudder to turn but why? whats the differnce between my old method and this one. in what situation are either better?

any time anyone could give to explain the differences and benefits of each method would be very much appreciated.

ta

ps. my rudder use was limited to helping to line up for a shot, ive found also it useful/necessary for takeoff and landing, apart from that my rudder use has been `none` except by accident.

danjama
04-25-2009, 06:13 PM
It helps to keep the "ball" in the artificial horizon centred, meaning less/no loss of altitude, and smoother transition resulting in less energy loss

This is called a co-ordinated turn. It's especially useful when extending from opponents, or flying in formation, although not limited to these situations.

TX-EcoDragon
04-25-2009, 06:48 PM
Because of yaw to roll coupling rudder will augment the roll rate to a degree as well. Ideally you use rudder to maintain coordinated flight, but using a little extra rudder can increase roll rate as well. . .there are drag consequences to this, and in the real world this would be done only in some cases because there are also risks associated with doing it.

In IL-2 there is minimal need to coordinate since the sim really doesn't model adverse yaw, but it does model yaw-roll coupling, so there is some benefit to a little extra rudder.

Tully__
04-25-2009, 06:48 PM
When you move your ailerons right to initiate a right turn, the left aileron causes the left wing to generate more lift and the right aileron reduces the lift on the right wing. A side effect of these lift changes is more drag on the left wing and less drag on the right wing. Consequently when you roll into a right turn your nose will try to yaw left. You need to use rudder to compensate for this as you initiate the turn so that your nose stays pointed where you're going and your overall drag is minimised. As mentioned above, this is called a coordinated turn.

For a coordinated level turn (i.e. not gaining or losing altitude in the turn), your rate of turn is related to your bank angle. When you bank, your lift in the vertical axis is partially transferred sideways to change the direction the aircraft is flying. Without elevator input, this will cause you to lose altitude, so you apply some elevator. The more you bank, the more elevator you need to maintain altitude and the faster you'll change direction.
As a trade off, you need more lift to change direction faster which means more drag. In order to maintain level flight and flight speed, you need enough power to overcome this extra drag. If you don't have enough power, you've got three choices:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Slow down as a result of the drag.
<LI>Lose altitude to make up of the lack of power (diving turn).
<LI>Turn less tightly so you can maintain your speed without loss of altitude. [/list]

People choose not to turn at 90 degree bank angles because it's much easier to maintain energy (speed and altitude) this way.

Further, in real life a 90 degree bank angle would generally mean a very high G turn that the pilot will not be able to sustain or such severe side slip that you're wasting a lot of energy or losing altitude fast. In a lot of aircraft, a coordinated level turn approaching a 90 degree bank angle will exceed the G limits of both the pilot and the airframe.

M_Gunz
04-25-2009, 08:05 PM
From an intuitive POV in level turn you just want to keep the nose from rising against the horizon and rudder into that.
If you're losing speed then loosen up a bit on the stick. WWII prop fighters, know of any that could sustain a 4G turn?

idonno
04-25-2009, 10:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
When you move your ailerons right to initiate a right turn, the left aileron causes the left wing to generate more lift and the right aileron reduces the lift on the right wing. A side effect of these lift changes is more drag on the left wing and less drag on the right wing. Consequently when you roll into a right turn your nose will try to yaw left. You need to use rudder to compensate for this as you initiate the turn so that your nose stays pointed where you're going and your overall drag is minimised. As mentioned above, this is called a coordinated turn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

UgoRipley
04-26-2009, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:
...whats the differnce between my old method and this one. in what situation are either better?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alphalvr, I had exactly your bad habit, and one day I asked the same question to a R/L pilot while we were both flying in a ULM over Rome surroundings.
He just demonstrated practically the effects or using/not using the rudder while turning, and believe me, my stomach was suffering !! Much better using it ;-)

M_Gunz
04-26-2009, 10:39 AM
I might add for Alphalvr (alpha lover?), keeping the ball centered will help you shoot better.

ADD: there's a no-rudder bad habit from way back in flight sims: holding a bank during climb to keep your heading.
Do you find yourself doing that on steep climbs?

Another bad one: using side-stick to correct roll during takeoff and landing and during slow or hard maneuvers.
Without rudder, what else do you do, right?

STENKA_69.GIAP
04-27-2009, 05:31 AM
Not only is the rudder used in a co-ordinated turn but it takes over from the alierons in controlling a high g/angle of attack turn. In other words when you are riding the edge of a stall during a turn.

When you move your alierons the difference between their effect between the two wings means that one wing will stall out before the other (with unpleasant results). So to manage a turn anywhere near the stall keep your wings symetrical by leaving your alierons alone and control with elevator and rudder.

alphalvr
04-27-2009, 04:50 PM
this is all very intresting, thanks

ps its really alfa luva, as in the car but my dad registered my email and he thought it up (cuz i lurrrve my alfa) but he got the spelling wrong, but i stuck with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

alphalvr
04-27-2009, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I might add for Alphalvr (alpha lover?), keeping the ball centered will help you shoot better.

ADD: there's a no-rudder bad habit from way back in flight sims: holding a bank during climb to keep your heading.
Do you find yourself doing that on steep climbs?

Another bad one: using side-stick to correct roll during takeoff and landing and during slow or hard maneuvers.
Without rudder, what else do you do, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont understand the 1st question but as to the 2nd question id only use side stick if my ride rolls as the wheels leave the ground (out of the few planes ive flown only the buffalo has this tendancy)

i try to keep level and use rudder for landing, my landings have improved since i started this method but then i read using mainly rudder to land is wrong....so i get confused http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

currently im trying to learn to retain speed, well energy, but i need lotsa work, i seem to bleed e at a astonishishing rate.

my usual rides are hurricane (mainly 1938)
brewster buffalo and i just started a campaign with laggg3 (s4)

ive played with la5 a bit but im trying to get the best out of the older planes before i step up to later years

ive tried boom n zoom (never with success)with these craft but i always overshoot, miss completely or lose all my e 1st, so i always end up in turn fights.

its like i try to be as gentle as possible but gentle never gets my nose where i need it pointing for the kill.

im currently practising banking around 40degrees and then looking at the ball and using a bit of rudder to centre it while i sustain turn...ill keep practising.

M_Gunz
04-27-2009, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I might add for Alphalvr (alpha lover?), keeping the ball centered will help you shoot better.

ADD: there's a no-rudder bad habit from way back in flight sims: holding a bank during climb to keep your heading.
Do you find yourself doing that on steep climbs?

Another bad one: using side-stick to correct roll during takeoff and landing and during slow or hard maneuvers.
Without rudder, what else do you do, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont understand the 1st question but as to the 2nd question id only use side stick if my ride rolls as the wheels leave the ground (out of the few planes ive flown only the buffalo has this tendancy) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1st question is if alphalvr means alpha-lover... 190Alpha perhaps?
The other part is telling you that if you keep the ball centered, your shooting should improve.
Ball not centered means the nose is not pointing (side to side only) where the plane is going and that will throw your aim off.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i try to keep level and use rudder for landing, my landings have improved since i started this method but then i read using mainly rudder to land is wrong....so i get confused http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everything you read is right, especially here. As Stenka pointed out, using ailerons changes the AOA of the wings.
Stall happens when AOA goes beyond the critical angle for that plane. The wing you try to pick up with side-stick will make more
drag than before and if that wing is already close to stall then it will stall, make a load more drag and drop you into a spin.
Rudder is all you want to use in near stall to get and keep the wings level. Turn into (step on) the high wing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">currently im trying to learn to retain speed, well energy, but i need lotsa work, i seem to bleed e at a astonishishing rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once you keep flying coordinated (ball centered) and deal with trim and maybe work with those stick sliders you should notice loads
of improvement. Another thing is to develop a light hand on the stick. If you find yourself resting the weight of your arm on
the joystick then find ways not to do that, it cuts your sensitivity to control by the weight of your arm and hand. Try just flying
with thumb and one or two fingers on the stick to develop a feel for how light you should be on the stick, at least when you practice
just flying to work on those combat maneuvers. You don't consider jumping in and fighting as adequate training, do you? You won't
be able to give full attention to what you are doing and what results while you are dealing with other things at the same time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my usual rides are hurricane (mainly 1938)
brewster buffalo and i just started a campaign with laggg3 (s4)

ive played with la5 a bit but im trying to get the best out of the older planes before i step up to later years

ive tried boom n zoom (never with success)with these craft but i always overshoot, miss completely or lose all my e 1st, so i always end up in turn fights.

its like i try to be as gentle as possible but gentle never gets my nose where i need it pointing for the kill.

im currently practising banking around 40degrees and then looking at the ball and using a bit of rudder to centre it while i sustain turn...ill keep practising. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch the ball as you bank. Do it when no other planes are around, easily done with QM or make a full mission. Set the view so you
can see the front panel and enough above to see the horizon or whatever's directly out front. Spend time flying like that and using
rudder to keep the ball centered and after a while you won't need to check very often, you'll have a feel for when it's right.

Trim... if you find yourself holding the stick off center about the same for a while then trim that up until you don't have to hold
the stick off center. Also make sure you have keys or buttons to center your trim, very handy for when you are in tricky moves
though usually you'll have to add nose up (pitch) trim because you've slowed down below neutral trim (cruise) speed.

Skarphol
04-28-2009, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
When you move your ailerons right to initiate a right turn, the left aileron causes the left wing to generate more lift and the right aileron reduces the lift on the right wing. A side effect of these lift changes is more drag on the left wing and less drag on the right wing. Consequently when you roll into a right turn your nose will try to yaw left. You need to use rudder to compensate for this as you initiate the turn so that your nose stays pointed where you're going and your overall drag is minimised. As mentioned above, this is called a coordinated turn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this problem was solved by differntial movement of the ailerons? Doesn't the aileron that moves up move about twice as much up as the opposite aileron is moving down, thus creating more drag on the wing that is on the inner side of the turn, wich again pulls the nose in the right direction?
I've built all my RC models that way. I learnt the trick from a real life pilot, and I thought this applied to most airplanes.

Skarphol

M_Gunz
04-28-2009, 04:56 AM
The drag is only part of the problem. When the aileron moves it changes the chord of the wing, the trailing edge is lower
or higher as a result and that means the AOA changes. It is how they work to add or subtract lift from that portion of the
wing. The thing is that if the outer wing is already near stall, adding AOA may put the outer wing into stall. At that
point the differential movement won't mean much at all.

K_Freddie
04-28-2009, 03:40 PM
A slight correction to the 'ball centering' thingy.

If you try to keep the ball centred, you will induce a spin. The harder you turn, the quicker the spin will come.

The 'ball centre' is actually off-centre and can be as much as 2 ball widths. Centering it requires more rudder, hence the spin.

This effect is caused by the engine torque and is more pronounced on the radials.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
04-28-2009, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
A slight correction to the 'ball centering' thingy.

If you try to keep the ball centred, you will induce a spin. The harder you turn, the quicker the spin will come.

The 'ball centre' is actually off-centre and can be as much as 2 ball widths. Centering it requires more rudder, hence the spin.

This effect is caused by the engine torque and is more pronounced on the radials.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaat? WTH are you talking about? On WHAT PLANE is keeping the ball centered going to induce a spin?
I've taken planes that post after post said "spin crazy" like the Macchi 202 and by keeping the ball centered was able
to turn deep into greyout without any spin. I've ridden stalls and post stalls straight by keeping the ball centered
***with the rudder as always*** and not spun. SO what plane(s) is this centered ball going make a spin??

Wiki on Coordinated Flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_flight)

Wiki on The Ball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_coordinator)

The ball does what hanging a weight by a string would show you except on one axis only.
It shows you where the G forces are pointing. You want them to point straight down at the floor most of the time.

The P-51 is an excellent plane to practice coordination with, the ones with the little ball right at the base of the
gunsight. It allows a better view forward and still see the thing.

TX-EcoDragon
04-28-2009, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skarphol:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
When you move your ailerons right to initiate a right turn, the left aileron causes the left wing to generate more lift and the right aileron reduces the lift on the right wing. A side effect of these lift changes is more drag on the left wing and less drag on the right wing. Consequently when you roll into a right turn your nose will try to yaw left. You need to use rudder to compensate for this as you initiate the turn so that your nose stays pointed where you're going and your overall drag is minimised. As mentioned above, this is called a coordinated turn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this problem was solved by differntial movement of the ailerons? Doesn't the aileron that moves up move about twice as much up as the opposite aileron is moving down, thus creating more drag on the wing that is on the inner side of the turn, wich again pulls the nose in the right direction?
I've built all my RC models that way. I learnt the trick from a real life pilot, and I thought this applied to most airplanes.

Skarphol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While some designs (like Cessna trainers) have frise or differential type ailerons that do have a greater travel in the upward direction than they do in the downward direction, even these designs have adverse yaw. . .they just have less than they would with a standard aileron. Some other designs do not bother to use this type of aileron, instead they may use a soft linkage between the ailerons and rudder to apply some rudder pressure any time aileron inputs are commanded. There are consequences to any of these designs, and they only work well as certain airspeeds/power settings etc, so many designs stick with the more conventional methods of control rigging. The consequences become even greater in aircraft which are designed for more aggressive maneuvering. . .no matter which design a pilot were to try, to keep coordinated they will still need to use rudder when they use aileron. Also, given how little adverse yaw there is in pretty much any sim, most sim pilots would be surprised at the amount of rudder needed even in the designs that feature linked controls and frise type ailerons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
A slight correction to the 'ball centering' thingy.

If you try to keep the ball centred, you will induce a spin. The harder you turn, the quicker the spin will come.

The 'ball centre' is actually off-centre and can be as much as 2 ball widths. Centering it requires more rudder, hence the spin.

This effect is caused by the engine torque and is more pronounced on the radials.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 2-ball width part isnít exactly correct in any design Iíve flown or know of. . .but itís true that in a single engine propeller powered aircraft that allowing the ball to sit ever so slightly to the right of the cage (perhaps 1/3 ball width +/-) in a design with a CW prop rotation will help to keep the right wing from dropping when you stall the aircraft in a high power condition. This is because of the effects of p-factor being somewhat akin to having a the thrustline offset to the right (hence a left yawing moment). . .normally this requires lots of right rudder as angle of attack increases to minimize slip angle, but if you were to stall in this condition, you will in fact be holding too much right rudder, and the right wing will generally drop. . .very few people seem to know this, and it really shouldnít matter that much anyway since the ball becomes pretty useless at the stall, and a pilot should be looking outside the airplane, not inside at this point. .

Also, none of this stuff really matters to a sim a pilot. . .most of these things hardly matter to most real world pilots either. . .

WTE_Galway
04-28-2009, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:


i dont understand the 1st question but as to the 2nd question id only use side stick if my ride rolls as the wheels leave the ground (out of the few planes ive flown only the buffalo has this tendancy)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A wing dropping on takeoff usually occurs because that wing has stalled and correcting with stick will make the asymmetric stalled condition worse not better. Always correct a wing drop on takeoff with rudder not stick.

This is especially important when carrying big bombloads or taking off from a carrier.

M_Gunz
04-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Viper (IIRC) had posted before that slip in a turn will work to prevent a spin, though he didn't go into what degree.
So perhaps if you were to keep the ball to the inside of the turn you could also pull harder than when centered.
But since slip (same as skid) in a turn will bleed more speed and bring the nose around slower, the tradeoff is poor.

Best you'll do in a turn is to keep it coordinated.
I don't expect the ball to be always exact centered, especially when you're not watching it all the time but it's not
that hard to get a sim-feel for when things are right and not need to keep an eye on the thing all the time.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb is to never get down stall except in practice finding out just where it is.

K_Freddie
04-29-2009, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
.. and it really shouldnít matter that much anyway since the ball becomes pretty useless at the stall, and a pilot should be looking outside the airplane, not inside at this point. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is exactly how I do it, but glancing at the ball during this situation tells me how far I'm away from dropping a wing or stalling, and make rudder corrections to put the ball back to the 'new temporary centre'.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
Also, none of this stuff really matters to a sim a pilot. . .most of these things hardly matter to most real world pilots either. . . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd imagine in RL pilots are not going to put their planes into such conditions, except probably aerobatic/stunt pilots. I wouldn't think that it'll be that important to jet a/c either.

With regard to simming, I find it helps a lot knowing how this works, as it can be of great assistance in avoiding virtual death
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

alphalvr
05-01-2009, 12:58 PM
i really appreciate all the input from you guys and am trying to put it into practice, all suggestions will be lapped up.

1 thing, i see the p51 suggested as a good plane for practising the ball centre trick due to positioning of the ball being quite high and seen more easily. i would like to ask if there are any other planes with a ball thats placed in a similar area?? im really asking `whats the oldest plane you can fly in - il2 1946 dvd - with a ball thats very easy to see, ie placed high?? or is it unique to the p51??`

also in the lagg (s4) i can see a ball in bottom left of the cockpit, just to the right of it there is a needle that seems to act similar, does that do the exact same thing or is it showing somthing completly different?

thankyou again

alphalvr
05-01-2009, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:


i dont understand the 1st question but as to the 2nd question id only use side stick if my ride rolls as the wheels leave the ground (out of the few planes ive flown only the buffalo has this tendancy)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A wing dropping on takeoff usually occurs because that wing has stalled and correcting with stick will make the asymmetric stalled condition worse not better. Always correct a wing drop on takeoff with rudder not stick.

This is especially important when carrying big bombloads or taking off from a carrier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really my theory was it was engine torque becoming more prominent once the wheels were not holding it in check? ie because they just lifted off the ground&gt;

oh and im normally holding rudder at this moment, whatever amount was needed to keep me straight n true down the runway, but ill try rudder to correct it.

oh can i ask a further question, why has it been suggested to have buttons selected for neutral trim?? i had figured these would not be necessary as if needed id just untrim the trim with the +/- trim controls. its obvious now that i dont fully understand trim. i understand that i can trim the plane so it flies straight n true but beyond that i guess im missing the deeper picture.

M_Gunz
05-01-2009, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:
i really appreciate all the input from you guys and am trying to put it into practice, all suggestions will be lapped up.

1 thing, i see the p51 suggested as a good plane for practising the ball centre trick due to positioning of the ball being quite high and seen more easily. i would like to ask if there are any other planes with a ball thats placed in a similar area?? im really asking `whats the oldest plane you can fly in - il2 1946 dvd - with a ball thats very easy to see, ie placed high?? or is it unique to the p51??`

also in the lagg (s4) i can see a ball in bottom left of the cockpit, just to the right of it there is a needle that seems to act similar, does that do the exact same thing or is it showing somthing completly different?

thankyou again </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look also on Spitfires, they have 2 needle gage of Slip and Turn way down on the lower-right of the front panel.

The thing is that in real flight you can feel the same force that moves the ball and also hear air effects of not pointing
where the plane is going at that instant. You also feel the plane rise and fall, speed up and slow down -- none of it
except in some sims the sound cue gets through a PC to your chair. IL2 has wingtip streamers to show you edge of stall.

You only need to spend a couple hours with P-51, or any plane that you can lower the front view (mouse will do that) just
enough to see the slip gage (ball or needle) and still over the nose enough to fly. In zoom-out or medium zoom it's easy.
Just set up a QM with you in your plane and no ground defenses or enemy planes. Crimea summer map is the most "standard"
air and has at least 3 concrete airbases. Learn more than climb and turn without distractions. You need Barrel Roll,
Scissor, Yoyo, Rolling Scissors, Immelmann, Wingover (the true Immelmann) and the Hammerhead (hang yourself near stationary
in the air long enough to get blown out of the sky, but it's showy!) and during all that you get the hang of energy
management and put that into practice, you will get smoother and faster.

BTW, try this. In the IL2 Controls section you have the stick sensitivity sliders. Pitch axis is stick forward and back.
Make sure you're in pitch (there's a little select window, pitch is first up for me) and find the Filter slider on the
right. Push that to the middle and give a test fly, you can always set it back. It cushions your stick pitch moves
slightly. The sensitivity window uses the red and green squares to show you what any adjustment does but fly energy with
filter up and see if you don't build speed just a bit quicker. Filter also takes out spiking from worn stick pots and
digitizer-dithering, when the stick is sitting right between 2 values (8 bit stick has 256 position resolution) and
flip-flops back and forth between the two. In IL2 this will slow you down, filter eliminates it.
When you feel brave, arrange your pitch sliders in a line with the left edge at least 40 and the right edge at 100.

And while you're at it, hehehe... learn trim enough to anticipate what trim change your next maneuver will need, ie if
you're going to slow down then tap in some nose trim while you're slowing down so you aren't far out of trim at the end.
Trim is also key to speed in IL2.

M_Gunz
05-01-2009, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:
really my theory was it was engine torque becoming more prominent once the wheels were not holding it in check? ie because they just lifted off the ground </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The prop spinning makes a spiral of wind behind it. When the plane is going slow the spiral is pretty tight and
once you're flying along it's nearly the problem it is on the ground. This swirling air hits the rudder from
the side, it hits the wings from the front, many planes have twist (or other compensation) built into the wings
(or one wing) and tail that matches the propwash stream angle at some design cruise speed. The closer you are
to that, the less trim you need.
When the plane is tail down vs tail up vs gear off the ground then expect a change to correct for.
The direction your prop turns will be critical to which way you rudder.

Btw, propwash is a much stronger effect than the gyroscopic forces you'll get from the spinning prop.

alphalvr
05-07-2009, 12:07 PM
ok can i clarify somthing.

1. while flying straight n level you use trim tabs to keep the ball centred and the plane flying level and straight.

2.when entering manouvres you use the rudder to keep the ball centred (but what about the trim i already put on, is this when i neutralise trim??)

basically when exactly do i take off the trim i put on and can you give an example of flying say a manouvre and give me some idea what trims you would use at varous points and why.

i sorta grasp the flying straight bit but i dont understand how trimming helps me in manouvres and im worried im gonna have to unlearn bad habits i develop when i finally understand how this all helps me.

why exactly would you use the trim centre keys rather than tapping off the trim i have put on? ps i have rudder mapped to a knob now

im at that point point where im trying to conserve e and make most of my rides rather than just trying to get into a turn fight and pulling g`s till i win or lose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sorry to be a slow learner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

TS_Sancho
05-07-2009, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alphalvr:
ok can i clarify somthing.

1. while flying straight n level you use trim tabs to keep the ball centred and the plane flying level and straight.

2.when entering manouvres you use the rudder to keep the ball centred (but what about the trim i already put on, is this when i neutralise trim??)

basically when exactly do i take off the trim i put on and can you give an example of flying say a manouvre and give me some idea what trims you would use at varous points and why.

i sorta grasp the flying straight bit but i dont understand how trimming helps me in manouvres and im worried im gonna have to unlearn bad habits i develop when i finally understand how this all helps me.

why exactly would you use the trim centre keys rather than tapping off the trim i have put on? ps i have rudder mapped to a knob now

im at that point point where im trying to conserve e and make most of my rides rather than just trying to get into a turn fight and pulling g`s till i win or lose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sorry to be a slow learner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your not being slow at all, one of the best things with this sim is it can be as immersive or complicated as you care to make it.
Remember not all planes have pilot adjusted rudder trim as MGunz decribed in much better detail and have a cruising speed where the plane flies neutral. A good example of this is the BF109 and FW190 which cruise at 400 kph in trim, any slower/faster the ball will roll and you need manual rudder adjustment. A trick to work around constant input on your part is to set a couple of keys to incremental rudder adjustment so when say your climbing out at 260 kph just tap the key and it will hold the ball centered. If you are flying a plane with rudder trim adjust the trim to keep the ball centered for the speed you are going.

The whole idea is to keep the plane in trim as much as possible so this requires frequent adjustment to both rudder and elevator trim as you go slower/faster. If you have the elevator trimmed properly you should be able to take your hand off the stick and the nose will stay where you pointed it, if your holding pressure on the stick to maintain level flight trim the elevator up/down untill you dont have to.
Where all of this really counts on saving/losing E is high speed so a good rule of thumb is once at altitude trim for the speed you plan to keep once the fight starts.

Theres all sorts of things beyond this that effect how your plane flies but I hope this helps.