PDA

View Full Version : ANYONE ELSE BUMBED OUT THAT THE FINAL MYST IS GOING TO BE "URU STYLE" ???



Pages : [1] 2

neo...1
06-13-2005, 11:13 PM
Just really need to get this off my chest & see if anyone else feels the way I do on this...
I don't want to discount the history & detail of Uru but all the other MYST games are far more superior & enjoyable to me. Take a couple years if you need to "MYST MAKERS" but don't give me the last MYST game ever in a similar form of Uru. This is going to be like when George Lucas gave us the horrible Episode I & Jar Jar binks after 10 years of a sound trilogy....only sooner.
The look, feel, stunning realism, puzzles, gorgeous music, intricate sounds, backgrounds, creatures & characters PERFORM INFINITELY BETTER in the structure of the original MYST games. URU failed not because people couldn't play it on-line together the way it was hoped but because ultimately Uru was nothing like its predecessors & certainly nothing like Revelation (which I believe is the ultimate refinement of the original ideas & structure thus far). Yeah sure, URU is filled with history & further detail for us MYST nuts...but am I the only one who thinks it belongs completely separate from the other series?
I can be far more patient & disciplined in playing the other MYST games...I actually look forward to the challenge! Even long after completing them I love knowing that I can load them up in a moment & walk through them again with enjoyment. There's something special about them...every step taken is treasured...... but when it comes to Uru that feeling is exceedingly underprovided... & after seeing that teaser for MYST V in the "Uru" style... I am enormously disappointed & border-line disgusted.
I don't really care at this point what Rand Miller is saying about MYST V being finished the way it should be & not to worry...to trust the story & such in his interviews....he was saying similar things when Uru was in the works. Unless I hear something like: "we're going to ditch the 'Uru style' idea... take a year or two & develop the final installment of MYST the TRUE WAY it should be...including having HIM in there making a final appearence...it's gonna fall short. This is NO way to end such a powerfully sophisticated & wonderful series RAND!
Even with the so-called top-of-the line graphics, even with the story....URU style is NOT MYST style. They are like night & day. MYST V won't be able to touch Revelation or Exile or Riven or even the 1st Myst. Uru just doesn't fit in with the others no matter how hard it has tried & neither will this MYST V unfortunately. It would have been better to just end it with Revelation & not get my hopes up for a grand finale in the form of a childish Uru game. I will of course try my best to see the good in MYST V like I did with Uru...but I already know...ESPECIALLY after seeing that "Trailer Trash" that it's too late. At best it will be fun but it won't satisfy or fulfill like the others....I hope I'm wrong but its not likely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Alahmnat
06-14-2005, 12:34 AM
Don't judge the game by the trailer. Marketing has a long history of completely missing the point. I would suggest going to Gamespot and watching the in-game footage (or watch the high-res quicktime copies available on Mysterium.ch (http://www.mysterium.ch)) before completely discounting the game out of hand.

Also, I feel I should point out that a lot of the problems with Uru were precisely because it was originally targeted at multiplayer, long-term storytelling, and that's not what it ended up as, so naturally it's going to have a different tone and style than the other Myst games, and because the online game failed, what's left is a bunch of multiplayer puzzles jury-rigged to work in single-player form, some of which worked better than others. Yes, End of Ages is also built in realtime 3D, and yes, at least a few of the Ages were originally slated for Uru Live. However, these Ages did not, for the most part, get very far into development before Live was cancelled, so the puzzles and interactivity aren't as locked-down as they were in, say, Path of the Shell. Uru was also not *supposed* to be like Myst, so I'm not entirely sure how that complaint carries over... it's not like they were trying to do another Myst game and failed to hit the mark. They were doing something else in the same universe, which apparently people didn't like as much, so they're going back one last time to do an actual Myst game with End of Ages to wrap everything up... how it's presented is really just the tip of the iceberg. There's puzzles, interactivity, interface, and story to consider.

However, if you're convinced that without pre-rendered images, End of Ages is doomed to failure, feel free to stop yelling and not buy the game, because it's already nearly finished, and trust me, nobody's going to turn the ship around and go back to pre-rendered graphics now. They've spent the past 18 months building these worlds to be as dynamic and detailed as possible, and some of the environments and puzzle designs would be very difficult if not impossible to pull off without the benefit of realtime graphics. Cyan has also spent a great deal of time, effort, and money gearing the studio up for realtime graphics over the past 8 years, largely because of Uru's development, and just slamming on he brakes and going back to a pre-rendered development pipeline is just not feasible at this point.

Still, if you actually do still have an open mind about the game, I'll re-iterate: the E3 trailer is a marketing-driven tool aimed at getting the attention of people in the midst of an over-crowded, insanely noisy exhibition hall. It's not aimed at the fans... they're pretty sure we're going to buy it anyway, so the trailer is targeting people who are less familiar with the series. That, and the majority of the content wasn't even taken from the engine itself (the whole introductory sequence with the bug, the guy, and the creature were done by Ubi). If you would like to see what the game actually looks like (especially in motion, since the E3 trailer doesn't have many prolonged clips), check out the in-game footage from Gamestop I mentioned earlier.

neo...1
06-14-2005, 01:35 AM
Thanks for the response...I see you clearly have a more "open mind" than I am willing to have on this. Obviously they won't go back...nor do I expect them to...that was just part of my frustration in expressing my feelings of disappointment. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif" Revelation as far as I'm concerned will be the final installment unless someone decides differently & returns to the original gaming presentation.
I am quite familiar with the failings of Uru and how it was originally designed to be a multi-player game. I know it wasn't "supposed" to be like MYST and I also knew while I was writing the "complaint" that it would not "carry over" or change anything. It was done to express my feelings of frustration in this regard. Hey, if you like Uru & the complete chronicles & include them into your love for the MYST series then I'm happy for you. I wish I could share those feelings. For me... the style & feeling of the original MYST, Riven, Exile & Revelation (which again I believe Revelation to be the ultimate refinement & evolution of the original style/ideas) although are similar in a structural presentation/transition... they each bring their very own distinctive feeling to the MYST series that I experience on a different level. Uru to me is certainly different, has its own way & feeling...but also so different that even if its inherent flaws were "fixed" & catered to a single player it still would not have measured up because of its simulation....& so the same will go for MYST V.
Now I know there are puzzles, interfaces, story & interactions to consider as you stated, (I live for those things) but I feel all those critical elements within a "Revelation Style" or anything but "Uru Style" will go the extra mile for me. An interaction just isn't the same without seeing Atrus "live" or Catherine or a sinister character plotting something...and neither will be all the other realistic forms of touch & operation.
I'd also just like to say that I wasn't yelling...& I'm not yelling.... at least not YET!
I know no one is forcing me to buy the game...that's not the issue...I will wind up buying it anyways. Similar to being a Star Wars fan... I still bought Episode I & will watch it again... no matter how much I didn't like it. The real issue here is that I am such an "Orthodox" MYST fan & I believe there is a considerable degree of disappointment to express/share & discuss with others....which is precisely what we are doing & hopefully will continue to do. Lastly... just an important reminder that I am expressing my perspective on this in regards to the "Doomed to failure" comment. C'mon... I'm not naive...I know there will be countless others who will buy it & enjoy it...but for me I know it will fall short on a number of levels & not give back the way the other MYST games can. Like I said before I hope I'm wrong...but I don't think so...
Thanks for listening & I will be sure to check out the in-game footage.

thewebb
06-14-2005, 04:57 AM
so firstly let me get this straight. you are discounting myst V purely because it is built in a 3D engine?

i also like the pre-rendered photo-realistic look of the other myst games and would have prefered myst V to be the same (although having nodes was a problem in parts of revelation ie the water chaneling). to me the bigger concern is the fact that some of the ages are left over from URU. however, like Alamnat i am a bit more open minded considering there are other new ages plus the whole story is made as a myst game, unlike URU.

i must confess i never played URU. i have played all 4 from the main series and loved them all. but i fear my reception of URU would be much like neo's in that it's a multi player game made into a single player game at the last minute. and, of course, it's not a real myst game.

i also don't like the idea of animated characters, but again it doesn't make my dismiss the game as no good.

also, it's not really "uru style". it is 3D and based on the same engine but i think it will be 1st person (?) and also including the option of point and click style.

in summary, i, too, am annoyed about some of the style changes due in myst V, but i still have high hopes it will be a fitting end to the myst series.

edit: just had a look at some of that in game footage you posted, Alamnat. looks pretty good to me. fairly myst-looking. you can tell they've used motion capture for the characters, too - looks good. perhaps the changover to 3D will be a good thing. oh btw, wasn't myst iv originally going to be 3D? back when dreamforge were working on it?

mszv
06-14-2005, 10:06 AM
There is some debate in the adventure game community (many of whom are nothing if not very traditiona/conservative in their views of adventure games) about the use of 3D in adventure games. So, you aren't alone.

My opinion - well, I think 3D is the way to go. It's also what Cyan does. Riven was the last 2D game they did, and they did that was years ago. If Cyan is the one to end the series (and I think that's right, they started it) - then what we will get is a 3D game, since that's what they do.

I think it's also a smart decision. I don't see how Myst V will be able to attract new players if it's done using 2D. Not that I didn't like how Myst IV looked (I did), but 3D is my favorite. I love the freedom of movement it gives you, and how you can look at whatever you want. To me, it's great for world exploring.

neo...1
06-14-2005, 10:28 AM
OK...first of all...I have just come from viewing all the in-game footage as well as watching the trailer for a second time. Unfortuntaely it is just as I suspected...extremely similar to Uru's look & feel. It is almost worse in the respect that it appears that there are going to be more overgrown, unrealistic, ridiculous insect/creatures hopping about... which is the fulfillment of the foreshadowing of sounds heard in Uru as well as seen at the end of Uru. UM...I don't know about others who have viewed the in-game footage but strangely it feels like a passive version of DOOM. ALso...in my frustration, admittedly, I did kind of wish it was a little more like doom so that I could take out a few of those bouncing creatures (regardless if they are friendly or not). Absolutely disappointed in the characters, look & interaction structure of the game...again very similar to Uru. I would imagine there is just going to be more character/creature/story involvement etc. within this "Uru framework."
Now I suppose I should be positive here for a moment...the worlds seem vast, detailed & involved... incorporating the great MYST sounds that we are all acccustomed to & I'm confident the music will be wonderful as well as the story.
In response to you "thewebb"...yes I guess I am discounting Myst V because of how it is going to run. Even with a great story-line, great puzzles & vast worlds which I'm sure it will have....it still won't match MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION in my book. It will be separate in my mind. The way those worlds,stories & characters are encountered/experienced are miles apart from how Uru is & how Myst V will be.
That said...yes I will buy the game...yes I will complete it...yes I will attempt to enjoy it....yes I will buy the soundtrack...but I know how the game will wind up leaving me in the end.
Just a note as to my "credence" if you will... as well as my respect for & involvement in the MYST games...I have read the book of Atrus, the book of Ti'ana & the book of D'ni...I have played the complete chronicles as well as all the other MYST games...I've been a fan from the start. My hope is that "The end has not yet been written" for the Myst series with MYST V....I would very much like to see a MYST VI in the "orthodox style" of MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & certainly REVELATION to redeem this disappointment. It would have been enough for me if MYST V was going to be like the other games apart from Uru...that's what I was expecting! It would have also been enough, although disappointing, if Revelation was the grand finale. If this is truly the end of the MYST series then in my book Revelation is the grand finale regardless of what is "revealed" in Myst V.

neo...1
06-14-2005, 10:49 AM
Just noticed the response from MSV. Thanks for the response. 3D may be what CYAN does... but I'm also looking at what CYAN HAS done...meaning:
4 out of 5 of the MYST games have been built upon the "traditional" MYST style...Uru is the only one to break away & now MYST V will follow. Still, with those stats (soon to be 4 out of 6)the success & failures will speak for themselves. For me the original style, from actual people being in the game to look, feel & story experience are what made MYST what it was & is today. 3D may be the way to go for other games...who knows maybe even ALL OTHER games... but give me that profound sense of realism that the traditional MYST games offer anyday. Look at the incredible evolution into REVELATION...Uru is no where near comparision nor will MYST V be.
My opinion is that they should save that style of gaming for a completely separate series of MYST...when I look at this MYST V and certainly Uru after playing REVELATION & EXILE as well as RIVEN & the original MYST...it's just very hard for me to stomach that it is supposed to be a "MYST" game...and I like to think I have a very good imagination! Call it "closed" minded or what you will but those are my feelings. I'm sincerely happy for anyone else capable of seeing it differently...I just can't do it!

Alahmnat
06-14-2005, 12:30 PM
In response to thewebb: yes, Revelation was originally slated as a realtime 3D game when it was being developed by DreamForge. ore information about it is here: http://mysterium.ch/revelation/dreamforge/dreamforge_e.html

When Ubi took the project away from DreamForge, there was considerable debate over what format it should be in. Ubi has never done a pre-rendered game in-house before, and that was a huge consideration, but the other consideration was whether they felt they could put the necessary detail into the game if it were realtime. Ultimately, they sided with pre-rendered graphics, obviously. When Presto made Exile, there really wasn't any other option available to them... even though they had an incredibly short production timetable (18 months start to finish), 3D was just not advanced enough in 2000/2001 to make a Myst game like that. I understand that not everyone likes realtime, especially since it has a long history of being used in games that are rather contradictory to Myst's style of gameplay, but Rand is the guy who calls the shots at Cyan, and he's a really big fan of realtime's freedom. There's a couple of other benefits that realtime grants, but they're largely development-related, so I'll leave 'em out of th discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

I really hope you do end up enjoying the game, neo.

Dark Screen
06-14-2005, 03:59 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you, neo...1. I'm not bumbed that Myst V is "Uru Style", I like walking around in 3d environments.

Don't be hurt by any of the following things I say.

1. "...I love knowing that I can load them up in a moment & walk through them again with enjoyment..."

- Unless you are talking about realMyst, you can't walk around in the games you speak of.

2. "...take a year or two & develop the final installment of MYST the TRUE WAY it should be..."

- Who are you to say how the game should be made? I think the game creator knows best.

3. "MYST V won't be able to touch Revelation or Exile or Riven or even the 1st Myst...Uru just doesn't fit in with the others no matter how hard it has tried & neither will this MYST V unfortunately...I already know...ESPECIALLY after seeing that 'Trailer Trash' that it's too late. "

- The game is not out yet. You have not played it yet. Maybe the node mode will appeal to you once you try it.

4. "childish Uru game"

- Childish?


Now I'd like to say I can relate to what you are saying due to my feelings being the opposite of what I see yours as. Before Myst IV came out, I was pissed off that it was 2d. Yes I said before it came out, I was doing the same thing I'm telling you not to do (complaining before a game is out). People told me to just not buy the game and, just like you I replied with something like "thats not the point, I'm just sad it won't be as good as it could be. I will still buy and enjoy playing it." I calmed down and just waited for it to come out. It turned out I was right and it did annoy me that it was 2d. A similar thing may occur with you. I see one difference though. They say there is a node mode in Myst V and a real mode where you can walk. I don't know why anyone would ever want to limit exploration but it's there for people who have that desire. It's supposed to make it feel more like the old myst games which is what you say you want. With Myst IV there was no talk of a 3d mode so I felt more sure I was screwed.


Alahmnat -
realMyst came out before Exile so it may have been possible to have 3d quality with Exile. I was pissed off when exile was 2d after playing realMyst. I'm not considering development time or anything though.

Dark Screen

neo...1
06-14-2005, 04:59 PM
Thank you "Dark Screen" for your feedback. This is great.
1st thing you should know is that I will sleep just fine tonight & my feelings are not hurt by your points & could not be...it would take a lot more than what you have stated to do that.
I feel your points are misinterpreted or at least misunderstood from my perspective.

POINT 1) I suppose we are arguing about the feeling/perception involved in "walking" here. From a simple slide show transitional "presentation" experienced in the 1st MYST & becoming a little more refined in RIVEN... to the elegant transitioning in EXILE & REVELATION...in all these games... "walking" can be & is accomplished. At least from my point of view! I reiterate I enjoy loading up these games & "walking" through to this day with considerable enjoyment.

POINT 2) I am just a die-hard MYST fan expressing my frustration & hope for a return to the "traditional" style that has predominantly shaped & formed MYST. That's who I am & that is all. Obviously it doesn't really matter, URU came out & so will MYST V...I don't hold the strings or "call the shots" as Alahmnat so eloquently stated...but I do not agree that the creator always knows best in this regard. Look at George Lucas CREATOR of STAR WARS, Episode I is a MAJOR disappointment & so is URU!

POINT 3) I am going to buy it & play it...I'm not saying I won't give it a shot...I'm a dedicated MYST fan...but I am saying that I played enough URU & have seen enough from both the trailer & now from the MYST V in-game footage to know enough, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is a considerable difference in the way the game will run & be experienced. I am not in favor of this form of simulation for the MYST series. I played URU with 1st person perspective as much as possible...just didn't cut the mustard....& the same will go for MYST V unfortunately.

POINT 4) Childish. Yes childish I'm afraid. Bouncing/hopping insect creatures scampering about while you run around with them?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif (Have you seen the in-game footage yet?) I know this is harsh but that's the feeling I get from seeing them as well as the computer generated characters...a less sophisticated (even if it is using the latest in technology!!) & more childish video game feeling. I'd much rather see REAL people like Rand Miller and other real actors play roles by actually participating in the overall feel of the game. It is not to be underestimated...it goes a LONG way AGAIN for me...from my perspective.

I do think it's interesting that you are the complete opposite side of my perspective. It does well for me to pay attention to your perspective & see the value in it. As I said, 3D is probably the future of gaming but I just don't think MYST fits the "URU style" 3D simulation for me. I gain more & appreciate more when the MYST series utilizes the traditional approach. They're' "3D" enough for me. The majority of the MYST games currently 4 out of 5 (THAT'S 80%!!) utilize the traditional style. I think that's important to pay attention to.

A quick note on EXILE...I thought EXILE was astounding & really took that extra step forward needed from RIVEN. Although not as dynamic & complex, EXILE, I believe, set an incredible standard in bringing MYST to the next level...finally realized & refined in REVELATION. I was hoping that MYST V would be even a further progression & refinement of REVELATION... so therein lies another reason for my disappointment. I am glad that Presto had no other choice & made EXILE in the "traditional" MYST style.
Thanks again for the response.

Alahmnat
06-15-2005, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Dark Screen:
Alahmnat -
realMyst came out before Exile so it may have been possible to have 3d quality with Exile. I was pissed off when exile was 2d after playing realMyst. I'm not considering development time or anything though.
Well, one thing I should point out is that the Plasma engine, at the time of realMYST's release, was really quite advanced (and continues to be so, in several ways), and I don't personally think many of the games of the time really held a candle to realMYST for quality. Unfortunately, Presto didn't have access to Cyan's engine, so they wouldn't have been able to make a game of the same caliber, I think. Plus, like Ubi after them, they decided that the slideshow format was more in line with Myst's style than realtime.

realMYST was basically Cyan's proof of concept for Uru... illustrating mainly to themselves that you could get a good-looking game running on modern hardware. It was also basically a really big public alpha test for the Plasma engine, and the feedback and bug reports they got contributed to the advancements made for the Uru version of the engine, Plasma 2.similarly, what they learned in making Uru was applied to the minor revision of the engine being used for End of Ages.

As far as the Bahro (the "creatures") are concerned, I don't mind them at all, and I don't think they look any odder than the sunners or the wahrk from Riven, or the electra-ray from Exile. Each game has its own unique wildlife (with the possible exception of Myst... which just has butterflies and seagulls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), and the Bahro sound like they're going to play a larger role than just running away from you all the time.

I'll not go into why they can't use real actors in the game, as I've already done so on several occasions, but suffice it to say that the concept wouldn't work because the way realtime works is very different from the way slideshows and even pre-rendered node-based games work.

JustBrett
06-15-2005, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Alahmnat:
As far as the Bahro (the "creatures") are concerned, I don't mind them at all, and I don't think they look any odder than the sunners or the wahrk from Riven, or the electra-ray from Exile.
While I mostly disagree with Neo, I have to admit that he may have a slight point here, though I would certainly not call them (or the game as a whole) "childish". When I saw the first part of the first video from IGN, I could almost swear I heard "Mario Brothers" music. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, I expect they'll be a little more impressive in the full-sized, full-resolution game. The Ubi version of the Bahro in the E3 trailer wasn't bad, aside from making me think of Alice the Goon.

ivanxuereb
06-15-2005, 11:50 AM
So, according to Neo...1 we should stick to the classical Myst style. But, if everyone sticks to his 'clasical' stuff:
We would still have computers with a command line interface
We would still have the inquisition
Movies would be in black and white and speechless
We would ride a donkey/horse if we needed to go anywhere

Things change. Imagine: if the first cell didn't mutate you would not be reading this!
I was a bit disappointed when I read that there would be no actors in the game, however when I saw the ingame movies I thought that Escher was well done. He was made as realistic as Cyan could plus using animated characters you are able to do what with real actors you could not.

neo...1
06-15-2005, 04:52 PM
1st just want to acknowledge the responses...Thanks Alahmnat....
Thanks "JustBrett" I certainly agree with & find your Mario Bros' analogy amusing.
Now for you Ivan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif! Yes...even a Thank you to you too! I'm not sure how much you read of all my responses...I think you're not fully understanding what I'm saying...AT ALL actually!

So to respond:

YES...I think the MYST series should stick with the "Classical" style as you put it...that's MYST series. Did anyone say MYST series...yes I did...that was MYST series. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I clearly said that for OTHER games this new approach is most likely the way to go...an excellent technological advance...a new wave of the future perhaps!

While your passion to get your point across is to be commended...and I do get your point...you have missed my point entirely.

If you're looking for a little more insight & are capable of seeing how even the "classical" approach has evolved, changed & become refined....simply play the first MYST or RIVEN even...then play REVELATION or EXILE even. You should see a considerable improvement, a change...a refinement in this "classic" style...."mutation" even to use your word. I think that the classical form both has changed & can continue to change for the better.

Seeing how you attempted to use outside comparisons...let me try one....Let's relate this concept to classical music. Listen to some classical music from Mozart's time or some Bach then listen to a more modern classical composer like Debussy or Rachmaninoff...You'll clearly see a change in music, a difference in the music....a different use of the structure. All the music is beautiful and stems from the "classical" skeleton...which many may view as rigid & tedious BUT it too changes.
Maybe this example may help to illustrate the point that a "classical structure" can still undergo change...and wonderful changes at that.

I think I would know the difference if I rode a donkey to work instead of a car...at least I hope! Clearly I understand your other technological examples as well. Give me a little credit here Ivan...

Thanks again for the response Ivan! NOW...Time to go see Batman Begins!

JustBrett
06-15-2005, 06:55 PM
Neo, I think a series can make significant changes in its method of presentation and still retain the essentials that bind each game to the series.

I'm thinking of the Zork series as the classic example of this. The first few games were straight text. Then we got Beyond Zork, which was still a text adventure, but had illustrations. Then we got Zork Zero, which was still mostly a text adventure with pictures, but also had some interactive elements in some of the pictures. Finally we got Zork Nemesis and Zork Grand Inquisitor, which evolved fully into point-and-click. (Did I leave any out?)

Those evolutionary changes were MUCH bigger than the transition from pre-rendered to realtime, yet all the games still had a clear "zorkiness" to them. (Even Nemesis, which was the least "zorky" game in the series.) If a text game can share a tight common bond with a point-and-click game, then I just don't see how you can hold Myst to such a relatively-limited graphic standard.

I wonder, have you played realMYST? If so, do you consider it MYST or non-MYST? If it's non-MYST, how do you really justify the distinction given that the story, puzzles, etc. are virtually identical to the original? If it's MYST, then why can't Myst V, which is also realtime, do an equally good job of representing the essence of the Myst series?

Wolf52371
06-15-2005, 08:58 PM
I was a bit disappointed with RealMyst myself, i remember in Channelwood in particular feeling like my vision was distorted. It was almost like i had tunnel vision and was looking through binoculars because it had a "zoomed in" look to it. Really weird. Like my eyes were 4 feet in front of me.

neo...1
06-15-2005, 09:14 PM
Hi "JustBrett" this one is for you...
(unfortuntaely I had this message near completion but I hit the wrong button & have had to do it all over again... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Thanks for all the probing questions...they certainly allow me to express where I am coming from more clearly! OK let's see... in response to your 1st quote:

"Neo, I think a series can make significant changes in its method of presentation and still retain the essentials that bind each game to the series."

I couldn't agree with you more...this is true for all games...but I believe that the "traditional" method of presentation in the MYST series has itself undergone significant changes & has still "retained the essentials that have bound this series together." This is what I mean when I mention that 80%... or 4 out of 5 of the MYST games were created in this changing "traditional" style.

Just a brief response to your "Zork" comparisons...certainly astute observations as to its evolution...but an entirely different game to be sure. What do you think I'm going to say next? Zork is not MYST! I appreciate other games & similar changes they may all experience but sincerely...I classify MYST into a league of its own...& rightfully so... Oh and I think the way you & I view "limited" is probably different. I think that the "limited" style you mention has still undergone significant change & gives an experience to the player that I would define as what shapes a "True" MYST game. Or said another way...I prefer that "limited" style over the "URU" style when it comes to MYST.

Now for the good stuff...

Yes I have played realMYST & I will explain my classification/justification.

1st a simple little chart: AGAIN A REMINDER THAT THIS IS MY OPINION to anyone else who reads this & wants to start blasting me!

TRUE MYST SERIES:

MYST
RIVEN
EXILE
REVELATION

NON TRUE MYST SERIES:

realMYST (COPY)
URU
MYST V (coming soon)

I'm putting realMYST in that category now because you mentioned it...for our discussion. Hadn't even considered realMYST to be a separate game because of the very words you mention...it is practically identical to the original MYST...therefore I view it as a COPY...and knowing my view on the MYST series in 3D...eh..nope doesn't count! I think realMYST served(s) as 4 basic functions: 1) an experiment with 3D 2) a foreshadowing of things to come i.e. URU & now MYST V 3) a time filler & 4) extra money maker. Is that all no...but I need to summarize... So my justification is that it is a COPY and also the 4 reasons I mentioned.

Just a note on the original MYST. I also believe because MYST is the catalyst of all other MYST games...the spark...the original genius...in this respect...it could be considered the "best" MYST game of them all...even with its extremely primitive "slide-show" presentation! Sounds weird I know. I told you I was an "Orthodox Myst Fan." But don't forget that's just from THAT point of view. If I had to pick a personal favorite... I'm caught between RIVEN & REVELATION. There are several factors I use in determining or judging a MYST game as I'm sure others do. Perhaps others would say I am "closed-minded"...and...I suppose when it comes to any MYST game being simulated in the "URU" style...I AM! Just doesn't do it for me.

Finally in response to:

"...then why can't Myst V, which is also realtime, do an equally good job of representing the essence of the Myst series?

I'll just repeat in a different way that... probably everyone else except me (the way things are looking here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif) will embrace MYST V as they did URU...I'm genuinely happy for everyone...I really am. SO in the eyes of others it probably will fulfill that representation & essence you mention...I can also "prophecy" this to be true for ANY person who enjoys & loves URU! Obviously...they'll love MYST V even more. I just don't feel the same way about it for all the reasons I have mentioned from the very start of this discussion forum...and it's a "bummer" to me to see the "Grand Finale" of MYST go out this way. Like I said before...unless "the end has not yet been written" & a MYST VI comes out I'm holding REVELATION as the "Grand Finale" in my mind.
Thanks for the discussion...by the way, I love Dexter's Laboratory...only seen it a couple of times but it had me laughing pretty hard.

Alahmnat
06-15-2005, 10:08 PM
As far as realMYST is concerned, I personally ended up liking Channelwood a bit more than I used to because in the original game I would always get hopelessly lost in the upper level. However, there is a bit of charm missing from it, perhaps because the animations are often subtly different and the speeches by Atrus are also slightly different in their delivery. I think Cyan has gotten a lot better in the animation department since realMYST though, because a lot of the charm and character so evident in Myst came through quite well in Uru's animations, and they seem to have gotten better still in EoA.

Mowog
06-16-2005, 07:05 AM
Wow, great debate! I also consider myself a classic Myst fan, having been a Cyan enthusiast since way before Myst... remember The Manhole, Cosmic Osmo, Spelunx? While you may regard the classic Myst as the definitive statement of what an adventure game should be, I see it as an evolution; just one step in Cyan's growth process. It was known early on that the slide-show format was chosen because realtime 3D was simply impossible given the development and delivery hardware of the day; 3D-capable video cards were largely unattainable for home computers, and that factor plus the low capacity of the computers themselves would have ensured that even if Myst had been 3D, it wouldn't have looked like much. So the pre-rendered worlds were an unfortunate necessity, as nice as they might have looked. Cyan was always aiming toward realtime 3D, and I feel that they saw the advancements in Exile (3D nodes and animated point-to-point motion) to be merely stopgaps until realtime 3D became feasible in the general marketplace. Yeah, pre-rendered worlds can look gorgeous! I'm still blown away by Riven, Exile, and Revelation. But; and this is just opinion, of course; if I'm going to "explore" a new world, I would much prefer to investigate every single detail that catches my attention, not just the significant bits that a node-oriented navigation wishes me to see. For example, Cyan lavished a lot of creative effort on the flora in Eder Kemo. All of that would be merely part of the scenery streaming by, but for the fact that realtime allows me to stop anywhere I want, look down, and see every last little blossom. The detail might not be quite up to pre-rendered, but to me the freedom of motion more than makes up for that. I can be more "human" in realtime, versus being just a disembodied eye whisking from node to node, then looking around to see what's new. Not only are the major points of interest fascinating, but the paths between them are pretty cool too.

Anyway, I do appreciate your feelings Neo. I just wanted to point out that as good as the pre-rendered worlds are (and I agree with you there!) they were always seen as just a step in the evolution of Cyan adventure games, brought about by technical limitations. Cyan was always waiting for the time when realtime would be possible, and just as the original Myst looked a bit primitive in 2D, likewise Uru occasionally looked a bit primitive in 3D. Myst and Uru were each the first step in a process; pre-rendered worlds got better and better with each release after Myst, and I have no doubt that realtime worlds would have improved with every release after the proof-of-concept Uru.

And while this may be irrelevant, Revelation was not a Cyan product... and as fabulous as it looked, my initial fascination with it subsided due to the really obscure puzzle designs and clumsy interface. I finally quit, and probably won't finish it. Yeah, it looked superb. But I just didn't enjoy playing it very much, once I'd gotten well into the experience.

Ian [Atrus]
06-16-2005, 07:37 AM
Everyone has his own idea of what qualifies as Myst and non-Myst; I actually thought that Revelation was the less Myst-ish of them all (and I enjoyed it a lot, except Serenia).
Also, the Myst series wasn't even supposed to be a series: Cyan didn't even want to add "the sequel to Myst" in the Riven title, because they didn't want the words "Myst" to brand their games.

I loved Uru and it qualifies _to me_ as a Myst title: a game where we explore, where we stumble into mysteries which we do not fully understand, a game wrapped up around a story and not viceversa.
Myst V is walking in those steps and I'm sad that some people loathe it just because it's going to be different from a previous title they liked, when Myst had always been about being different.

The only thing of Myst V that bugs me is the first person perspective: I actually think that first person in 3D is not natural, it feels like your eyes are one feet in front of your body.

jetuserX
06-16-2005, 08:48 AM
Yeah you also seem to include URU into the Myst series as if it was a part of the story. You have to remember it isn't. Rather Rand said it was more of a side story to the series and has no real connection with the story (yeesha aside). I don't have anything against 3D and I think that the node-to-node feature in myst 5 will appeal to most of those who prefer that style. Also you do have to remember, the videos aren't the final product. They still have to fix a few things and polish it up. But ultimately in the end I believe it will be well accepted.

ivanxuereb
06-16-2005, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Ian [Atrus]:
it's going to be different from a previous title they liked, when Myst had always been about being different. Yeah, back when Myst came out in 1993, there were hardly any CD-ROM drives in houses, so it was a big risk to release a game on CD-ROM.

monsieurdavid
06-16-2005, 10:06 AM
Also, the Myst series wasn't even supposed to be a series: Cyan didn't even want to add "the sequel to Myst" in the Riven title, because they didn't want the words "Myst" to brand their games.
Without trying to sound like I think I have a fan-base http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif if anyone has ever read any of my other responses you'd know that my tiresome mantra is "Riven is the alpha and the omega" - - which is why Exile and especially Revelation were such disappointments to me. But if you stop to think about it, getting into a mindset that says "they've ruined the series with this game or that" is a bit futile; each game has really been an independent entity.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 10:36 AM
Hi Mowog...thanks for the response....this one is for you.

I appreciate your perspective on the evolution of CYAN itself by looking at alternative games & CYAN's longing to break out of itself to use 3D. I'm not trying to discount that evolution because I think you have an interesting point there...however if I simply look at the majority of the MYST games & look at what dominates its inherent experience (regardless if CYAN wanted to use something else)...at the end of the day what they used or "approved" for the majority of MYST games was the "traditional method." So to use the quote "with great power comes great responsibility" I believe because the MYST series has predominantly used the "traditional" approach... providing a distinctive look, feel & story as the experience of the MYST series...in addition to becoming a tremendous success with this approach ...it had/has a responsibility to maintain that approach. Everyone else would say that "they are fulfilling that responsibility & what the heck am I talking about!" Obviously they can do whatever they want...and they have & will...but my point has always been that even if the 3D URU style is/was possible for MYST...it still may not be the best choice for all the reasons I'm mentioning. This "style" does NOT measure up in my mind as being "true" to MYST. Even if the story does fit! Even if the MYST makers say otherwise!

So let's hypothesize another way...what if the original MYST had been rendered in 3D simulation as well as RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION? Honestly...I don't think I would even have played them...or at the very least if I played them...I would MAYBE like them but certainly not grow to LOVE them the way I have come to experience & love the MYST series. Difficult to hypothesize that way for sure...but nonetheless I "know myself" enough to make a good guess. Which leads me to respond to your 2nd interesting point on exploration...here's my perspective on that:

You mention: "I would much prefer to investigate every single detail that catches my attention, not just the significant bits that a node-oriented navigation wishes me to see..."

For me I look at this in many ways but here's the main one...
I believe you can still examine your surroundings closely....if you stay still in just one "rendering" if you will...you could stare at it for hours (particularly in EXILE & REVELATION) & still not pick up on all the detail. Now are you allowed to zoom in as close as you would like?...NO... I suppose not unless the game allows for that closer zoom...but that has never bothered me...if anything... I feel part of the challenge was/is to be able to decipher a "zoom in" position. I view each transition as a treasure...like an incredible painting coming to life that I am to patiently "walk" through & "examine" or I might miss something...and these incredible "paintings" constitute all the incredible MYST worlds.
The appeal of MYST being "REAL" is what is important to me. I would define real here as: "real" people actually being ecountered in the incrediblly "real" graphic imagery down to the "creatures" that also pass as real. There are other measurements as well but to keep the major distinctions I'll leave it to those. While URU may be "Real Time" it just doesn't feel "real" to me nor will MYST V...there's no question about it.

Finally in response to your REVELATION experience as well as it not being a CYAN product.

If CYAN created MYST... then to me REVELATION has to be a "product of" CYAN...especially seeing how as soon as REVELATION loads up... the FIRST thing you see & hear is the original CYAN logo & muscial jingle... then of course followed by seeing & hearing Rand Miller reveal a deeper story-line that is clearly continued from the original MYST with regards to Sirrus & Achenar. If CYAN simply approved the making of REVELATION & Rand Miller actually plays a role in the game than...(& in this particular game Rand plays a much larger one in regards to both seeing & hearing him) in my mind... it is "a product of" CYAN.

It's unfortunate that you probably won't finish REVELATION...I don't see see the interface as clumsy nor the puzzles as "obscure." Certainly they're different & challenging but that's precisely what I love about them. I always looked at the frustration or seemingly "dead end" that I undoubtedly WILL encounter in playing a MYST game (especially in RIVEN!) as a challenge. A challenge to go back...look at it again & try to figure things out....that's part of the discipline & teachings of the MYST games...by not giving up & by pushing through it...this has helped me in any number of ways in "real life" as well! Those attributes are also a major part of the realistic feel by utilizing the "traditional" approach. Becoming disoriented for example & or lost... is a very real occurrence...it forces you to use your spatial skills. I don't know about you...but after completing any of the MYST games...especially RIVEN...I think patting yourself on the back is in order!
GO GIVE REVELATION ANOTHER TRY BUDDY! The major thing for me that I keep in mind about the MYST games especially after being "taught" the art...is that there is always a clue or answer within the game... you just have to look deep enough to find it. It's what separates the men from the boys! (Not calling you a boy either Mowong...I don't mean it like that).
WHEW...thanks for the "challenge!"

larsschermer
06-16-2005, 10:51 AM
when uru came out i was very upset it was in real-time 3D, but I coped and now I think its one of the better games in the series, not coming close to Riven though. the one thing I do miss in real-time 3D is: lighting! plain and simple, you cant make the dynamic lighting from Riven or Even the first Myst game with any of today€s graphics cards, Even with NVIDIA€s transform and lighting engines its not doable. Non the less there€s more then that, that make up a good "myst game" and in the hands of Cyan i think they can pull it off.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 10:52 AM
This one is for you Ian (ATRUS)...(By the way to help underline where I am coming from...I think your Avatar image (for your profile) looks "fake" like many other things in URU...if you had a picture of the REAL Atrus (Rand Miller) in your profile...that would come across as more realistic!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Well to each his own...I'm glad you like URU & will undoubtedly like MYST V. Oddly enough...one of the few things I did like about URU was being able to use the 1st person perspective...so you and I just won't see eye to eye!

There is no way in my mind that REVELATION is the least MYST-like...I think the "traditional" style was at its best here in addition to seeing "real" people & experiencing your surroundings. A truly wonderful accomplishment...and it will make for a "Grand Finale" in my mind.

Lastly..."loathe" is a strong word for me....I don't "loathe" URU... It just doesn't appeal to me...nor would I include it as a "True" MYST game...again in my mind.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 11:01 AM
This one is for you "jetuserX"

Not sure if you are speaking to me here...but I think you certainly have a point with the separation of the story. I think there are ways to include it into the overall story-line as many people have...kind of fuse them together...like looking with more detail into the civilization of the D'ni as well as the torch being passed to Yeesha...to name only two.
I have tried to do this...to actually include URU as a part of the MYST series (including story)...and have been unsuccessful...I don't think it has its place as a "true" MYST game. So that would include its story as well. When I try to stay a little more positive about URU it seems the only way I can do that is by attempting to look at its story. So I think we're basically saying the same thing....and yes I believe that MYST V will be well accepted too. I'm going to buy it...but you obviously know how I'm going to feel about it!

neo...1
06-16-2005, 11:11 AM
This one is for you larsschermer...

I certainly share in your disappointment in URU...but unfortunately my disappointment continues...

I think you have mentioned a FANTASTIC issue with the lighting. I couldn't agree more with you as to its overall powerful effect in the MYST series...which is also seen being used even "better" (in my opinion) in EXILE & REVELATION. Unbelievable really. I don't think that MYST V will pull it off though...just as URU is lacking entirely in its "realistic" feel (again in my opinion)...even if they utilize the lighting at its best... I don't feel the realtime 3D engine will provide an adequate lighting effect as seen in the other series & just won't come across as "real" to me...

That said...I have saved a few "screen shots" from MYST V & looking at them as "wallpaper" the use of lighting is pretty solid...but it's one thing as "wallpaper" and another to actually experience it as a game.

Certainly there is more that makes up a good MYST game...but all those other elements within the "traditional" framework at least for MYST...is how they work best.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 12:21 PM
This one is for you "monsieurdavid"...

No...I did not know your mantra has been RIVEN to be the "Alpha & the Omega." I come super close to fully agreeing with you on that... but I will just have to say that I am inclined to agree with you.

For me to consider something to be the "Alpha" it has to be the beginning...the original. So I'll have to say with that in mind...that the original MYST is the catalyst or "Alpha" for all the other MYST series games that follow.

If you read some of my other responses...I did mention that if I had to choose my favorite...I am torn between choosing RIVEN & REVELATION. I do not think that any of the other games match RIVEN'S intensity, dynamicism & complexity. After completeing RIVEN...you feel like you're a genius...because the game itself is pure genius. The only reason I am torn from choosing it is because of its accomplishments integrated into REVELATION. The refinement I mention in the "traditional" style game-play is remarkable...I love it. I find/found it to be extremely absorbing & had not been this challenged since RIVEN. Also... being able to see the incredible introduction & all the actors involved as well as the "touch & feel" experience as you move through the game....it was just beautiful. SO these are the basic reasons I am torn...there are, of course, more reasons that I have in favor of both. Maybe we can talk about this more in another discussion if you would like to.

Obviously I have stated how I'm not the one holding the strings when it comes to MYST...so I know it is futile....but I think it's important to express the different perspectives & experiences people have had when it comes to the series. URU doesn't fit into a "true" MYST game for me so in my mind I just don't include it...that way the series doesn't get ruined for me! Certainly there is an independent entity to each game...but MYST is its own identity & the others belong to it...so in a way I guess I am attempting to protect that "MYST" identity as I have come to experience it. By not including URU & MYST V that does the trick for me! Certainly most everyone else will disagree.

Deirdre_1
06-16-2005, 12:26 PM
I for one like every "Myst" game, including URU. Each one is, in itself, a seperate game as well as being connected in some way to all the others. Sure, I have a favorite, as I am sure everyone does. I look forward to Myst 5 and am sure it will be everything I expect it to be.

mszv
06-16-2005, 12:38 PM
People vary in how much interactivity they like in a game, and how much they want it to be, for want of a better word "3D". Some people like a like of interactivity, and some - less. I don't know any other way to put it.

The thing about 2D is that you don't get as many different views of anything, up close, far away, different angles, that sort of thing. You can look at a screenshot for as long as you want, and look at different details. Even if you stay in one spot in a museum, looking at a painting perhaps, you look at different parts of a painting. But, you only get to look at what is presented in the painting, no different views. In a 2D games, you get some different views, but it's the same idea. No matter how committed 2D designers are to giving you different views, you'll have less views of the world than with 3D.

I think that, a couple of years ago, there was a big differece in the level of detail you could see, between 2D and 3D. Now, I'd say it's less so, particularly for the way Cyan designs games. For want of a better word, with Cycan games, I'll use the word "photorealistic", though, of course, no one does that. Sometimes, if you design something differently from "photorealistic" it actually looks more realistic. Photos are also a model of the real world (an abstraction), but, I digress.

For me, I cannot see any reason for not going with 3D, given the way that Cyan designs games. They want a world that looks so, for want of a better word "real" that you can walk around in it, as if you "were there".

I'd contrast this with both Syberia 1 and 2. Benoit Sokal came from the graphic novel world (comics, he's a creator, he does both story and pictures, unlike, for example, Neil Gaimon, who wrote the story for the Sandman series, but didn't do the graphics). Benoit Sokal is the designer for Syberia 1 and Syberia 2. The story and artwork designs come from him and he has approval over everything else in the game.

Here's a link for Syberia 2 and Syberia

http://syberia2-game.com/syberia2/english/

http://www.microids.com/game.aspx?id=30

I'm not sure if the Microids link will work (for Syberia). If not, go on the Microids site, and click on games. There's a section for Syberia. The nifty site for Syberia is now gone.

Anyway, it's not that Benoit Sokal isn't making 3D images, but they aren't particularly photorealistic. When you look at them, it looks as if it's important that the games looks like someone drew them. They do have 3D models and they add some special effects to the games (those footprints in the snow were nice), but it's not the same. When I'm in the Syberia games, I feel like I'm in the middle of an animated graphic novel. It's also linear - Benoit Sokal has a story to tell, and he wants you to experience it. It would be rather wonderful if that phenomenal style of Syberia 1 and 2 could be translated to a 3D engine, but I can see how that's not really their intent.

Now I love both the Myst series games, and Syberia 1 and 2, but I think the experience is different. In the Myst series games, it seems to me that there is more of an attempt to create a world where there's a simluation of you walking around in the world. You can attempt to do that in 2D (the recent Myst Revelation, a very good game I like a lot), but I think it's just seems more like a world you are walking around in - if you do it in 3D.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 01:43 PM
Hi Deirdre_1...

I'm glad you like every MYST game including URU enjoy MYST V!

Deirdre_1
06-16-2005, 02:02 PM
Neo, I hope you do not think that my post was intended to malign anyone for their likes/dislikes. Everyone has their own opinion and rightly so. We all have different tastes. I simply meant that for me I tend to view the Myst games as 5 single games, soon to be 6, and can see many things from each game that are good and unique to each game. Also each game does have things that I don't particularly care for but overall can be overlooked due to the good parts and qualities.

I always respect others opinions and did not in any way mean to step or downplay yours. If I gave you that impression then I am truely sorry. It was not intended. If I am reading something into your post that isn't there then please accept my apology for that.

neo...1
06-16-2005, 02:24 PM
Hi mszv...

Thank you for the links to Syberia...I guess I'm not familiar with many of the other games out there....Syberia 1 & 2 being two of them....I'll comment on the imagery I viewed from your links momentarily...

I think you are hitting on the point here that the interactivity certainly does vary from person to person. Well said...there really isn't any other way to put it.

When it comes to MYST for me...I'll take the "less" number of views as you put it for the more realistic feel anyday. To someone else perhaps they feel the 3D is more realistic for the reasons you mention...I just don't see it that way.

Certainly with regards to the amount of detail in 3D & 2D... BOTH have increased in their presenation & BOTH have changed for the better. CYAN may be the best at utilizing 3D... I just feel they should utilize it with anything other than the MYST series. URU & now MYST V seem like they are completely separate from the other MYST games to me. Or said another way...when it gets down to using both approaches (3D/2D) for the "single entity" of MYST...I don't think it is a successful mixture for MYST... even if everyone loves it (sounds weird I know). Again...namely because 4 of the 5 MYST games have come from using the "traditional" approach....as far as I'm concerned it's 4 out of 4....personally I don't really include URU.

I think CYAN should certainly go for it & I'm sure they will..they will most likely do incredible things with their accomplishments...but they should save it for something else! To me the MYST series becomes tainted by mixing up the appraoches within the same "entity" of MYST. They may want that better 3D world to walk around in...which is a wonderful goal...but when I "walk around" in the other MYST games...the experience is vastly different & profoundly more gratifying when using the "traditional" style.

Now on to Syberia. Looks like a very interesting game....I viewed several of the screen shots...many were beautiful. I think you had an interesting insight when you said:
"When you look at them, it looks as if it's important that the games look like someone drew them..."
I don't think anything is wrong with that! If it is highly realistic & can be done in a similar fashion to REVELATION let's say...sounds like something I would definitely buy & enjoy. 3D just puts me off...it comes across to "video gamish" (if that makes any sense) or childish as I mentioned in another part of the discussion forum.. I don't like seeing the character walking around nor seeing any "simulated" characters or "hopping" creatures for that matter. Even with the first person perspective it still doesn't do it for me.

So hey...if it seems like more of a world you're walking around in via 3D & you'd prefer that approach...no worries...you're gonna' get it... so at least someone will be happy! I just feel the realism more in the "traditional" style approach...REVELATION was incredibly realistic & am glad we share favor in it...I think if REVELATION used the 3D "URU" style... it would have been pretty bad. I was so happy to see it completed in the "traditional" style...you have no idea how much! Sorry for sounding like a broken record everybody!
Thanks for listening....

neo...1
06-16-2005, 02:34 PM
Deirdre_1
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you're getting a little paranoid... Thank you for thinking of my feelings....I wasn't offended in the slightest way by anything you said...I enjoyed your brief comment & know where you are coming from. I respect others views as well... as you'd probably know by reading all my responses from the start of this discussion forum. You'll also see that most people responding to me...basically everyone... is not sharing my view...which is great! Yes great! It teaches me more the more people disagree with me! So it's not like anything you said was anywhere near offensive! No worries Deirdre_1 & certainly no need for an apology OK!? Anything you want to say go ahead & say it! Everytime someone contributes to this discussion forum it's wonderful! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

salgene
06-16-2005, 09:16 PM
I could careless if its 2d or 3d or just pictures all over the place. Its a myst game, its done by Cyan. nuff said

neo...1
06-16-2005, 09:18 PM
AHHH the burden of genius.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Alahmnat
06-17-2005, 02:40 AM
To continue a thought that mszv touched on, I think too much emphasis is placed on things being "realistic" and "photo-real". In fact, given the constraints of CGI, striving for realism is just asking for a trip into the uncanny valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley). really good CG games and animation, like any other animation, tend to focus more on believability than realism. What I mean by this is that even in the original Myst, with as quirky and far-out as some of the landscapes and devices looked and behaved, the whole thing was internally consistent and presented the illusion of reality, rather than reality itself. Some people actually dislike Riven to a degree because it focused on being too realistic, and they feel that some of the "magic" of the original game was lost with that move.

The difficulty these days is that, with so many other games striving for (and often times widely missing) total realism, to release a game that has the same visual style and quality as Myst did would be silly and akin to market suicide. Nobody would buy it. I think in this respect the move to realtime imagery is a clever one, because it places constraints on what you can do in the game much like the constraints present during Myst's development. The challenges are slightly different, but ultimately it's a question of how to overcome the restrictions of the technology to give the illusion of a real place. The slightly "cartoony" - to use your term, neo - environments are, to an extent, the result of taking Myst's surrealism and trying to layer it with high-resolution textures and geometry. Now, it may just be because I really enjoy the slightly exaggerated scenery and brilliant color palette in Myst, or it may just be because I've had this idea of believability being king with realism a distant second objective in creating CG artwork drilled into my brain at school for two years, but I'm much more attracted to End of Ages than most other realtime games, and I think the imagery in EoA, while technically inferior to what's in Riven, Exile, and Revelation, is very much appropriate for a Myst game.

I also don't think pre-rendered photo-real images are a necessary staple for a good game - much less a good Myst game... the sheer bulk of really, horrendously, even terrifically BAD adventure games that have tried to echo Myst's success are a bit of a testament to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. There are examples of this in every industry, but I still firmly believe it's the content and not the delivery medium that ultimately determines the quality of the story and the experience. It's why I like Cyan for pushing the boundaries into realtime, and it's why I have a great deal of respect for Pixar for doing what nobody else in the film industry will do... make a traditional, hand-drawn animated feature film (they've actually started a 2D animation department).

As a side note, to anyone who thinks you can't get dramatic lighting and really *great* scenes from a realtime game, I suggest checking out some of the entries (and especially the winners) in the Golden KI (http://www.dpwr.net/goldenKI.php) photo competition on DPWR. Even I've been surprised by the quality of some of the entries.

larsschermer
06-17-2005, 02:59 AM
Take a look in "from myst to Riven" page 72. The top chute is still dramatic, but compared to the final shot, its dull, and that€s about the range a modern-day graphics card can render.
I'm not saying that Plasma is better then prerender or wise versa, its just not possible to generate prerendered lighting effects in a real-time 3D engine, with today€s technology.

Regarding detail, you might be able to walk around an object in a 3D engine, but all the details will be lost as a consequence of lowpolymodeling. personally I think pre render gives far more detail, then Realtime3D, but that€s just me.

Now however we discuss this, we wont change the outcome, Myst V will be in 3D, end of story. I think it will be a good game nontheless

Alahmnat
06-17-2005, 03:32 AM
I dunno if you can really call it low poly modeling anymore these days... the polycounts in realMYST were at least what they were in the original pre-rendered version, and I shudder to think about the insanity of the wireframes in Teledahn and Gahreesen... and from the looks of things, EoA is even *more* poly-dense...

Plus, a lot of the detail that might get lost because the geometry isn't as complex as it would be in pre-rendered images doesn't mean you can't make up for it in other ways. Bump maps, displacement maps, and well-painted textures can cover a multitude of simplicity if done well. There's also DirectX 9 pixel shaders that can mimic the glare effects from Riven, though we could get into a whole other debate on whether Cyan will actually be using them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Fortunately, there's a way to show off the changes (and advancements) in the images from Myst to EoA thanks to the seemingly ubiquitous presence of Atrus' prison on K'veer:

In Myst (http://www.dpwr.net/illustrated/mystnotin/1996-11.jpg)
In realMYST (http://www.dpwr.net/forums/uploads/gallery/1116459744/gallery_2_28_1119000461.jpg)
In Path of the Shell (Uru) (http://www.dpwr.net/forums/uploads/gallery/gallery_575_38_1088419988.jpg)
In End of Ages (http://www.dpwr.net/forums/uploads/gallery/1114638764/gallery_575_72_1116459630.jpg)

Alahmnat
06-17-2005, 02:03 PM
Also, as an aside to neo1... could you please combine your responses into a single post from now on? Generally speaking, it's bad netiquette to reply multiple times in a row to the same topic.

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

neo...1
06-17-2005, 05:41 PM
My humble apologies for not following "etiquette" in the discussion forum Alahmnat "moderator & community assistant"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

This is my first time starting a discussion & participating in a discussion forum...I merely thought by acknowledging everyone's response individually I was respecting them more....go figure! Each person seemed to bring up something DIFFERENT actually within a similar context also aimed in my direction so I figured it was kinda' like e-mail! No worries I'll figure something out... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This response is primarily for you anyway...so:

You continued MSRV's thought by stating that you think too much emphasis is being placed on "things being realistic" & "photo real"... I don't think anything is wrong with that emphasis & I don't think it is too much either. Just from the sounds of this forum... I think the same could also be said about placing too much emphasis on 3D...especially when involving the MYST series!

I really enjoyed your "uncanny valley" link & found it especially interesting. While you may be afraid of a trip to the uncanny valley, why not take a little venture?? I like to think I can control my emotions for the most part...especially when it comes to playing a video game. Clearly I have an emotional "attachment" to the "traditional" MYST series games via the experience I've had...but this is not the sole basis for being "repulsed" by URU or MYST V. To further apply the "uncanny valley" & help you see my perspective on this I'll use Star Wars for a moment or rather a character in Star Wars. Let's use Yoda. I love Yoda! As seen in the "old" Star Wars...Empire Strikes Back & Return of the Jedi... Yoda's character is "presented" as a puppet... as well as in Episode I(10 years later). Upon reaching Episodes II & III Yoda is completely "animated" yet at the same time highly "realistic"...he passed in my mind as being "REAL." As a puppet, Yoda didn't come across "AS REAL" as the "animated" Yoda...but he still was "REAL ENOUGH" because let's not forget he was also amongst other "REAL" people/characters & environments which all helped to facilitate his presence as "REAL." If Yoda or any other "creature" in Star Wars looked anything like the bouncing hopping "creatures" in MYST V I would be "repulsed" by it... to use the "uncanny valley" terminology. Actually I'm not repulsed...that's a pretty strong word...like "loathe"...yet my feelings are not TOO far away from those either.

In my mind...when simulating reality... an emphasis should ALWAYS be placed on how real something comes across. Failure to do so would be just that...a failure. When something simulated is able to pass for "REAL" ...to me it has succeeded! It has achieved & accomplished GENIUS. I can give a number of examples but I'm just gonna' blurt out look at DISNEY WORLD OR LAND.

So now coming full circle back to MYST. When I look JUST AT THE MYST SERIES...the predominant feel of the series has been a focus on being realistic. Through wielding the "traditional style" the MYST series has simulated reality successfully & that "traditional" style itself has changed for the better... meaning it has also become "more realistic." URU or MYST V comes across as "un-realistic." Pete & Repeat sat on the wall...Pete fell off & who was left...(I'm poking fun at MYSELF here for the record).
Also...along with this line of thought...based on the premise that the majority of the MYST games have been completed in the "traditional" style...I DON'T think this new style is appropriate.

I believe the first MYST as "aged" as it is... is still more realistic than URU Alahmnat...& in a way you prove my point in your opening statement. For me...for something to consist of "believability" it should also have "realism." I don't really think you can separate the two. Although....depending on the sophistication & level of "acceptance" there could be an exception based on the PERSON. To repeat... Example: I don't believe that URU or MYST V has "believability" so it's also not "realistic" to me. To someone else...maybe with more or maybe with less imagination...URU has "believability" but not "realism" or maybe to ANOTHER person it has both.

Obviously I couldn't disagree more with whomever thinks RIVEN lost its magic because of its realism...I think that realism is precisely what gives it its magic (combined with story of course).

You also mentioned how the "bulk" of other games who have attempted to follow in MYST's foot-steps have failed...well that's kind of a no brainer! That's what makes MYST (as I stated in another response somewhere) in a league of its own...the success of MYST is currently accredited to MYST RIVEN EXILE & REVELATION... if you really want to add URU go ahead but that keeps URU in the "minority." Hell! Add MYST V if you want to...the simple fact is that the dominant force in what makes MYST-MYST... has been accomplished through an incredibly creative use & continued change of the "traditional" style that utilizes the "MYST" story.
- THAT'S BOTTOM LINE - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lastly...I know I took the uncanny valley somewhat out of context in order to apply it to my perspective... so to make further sense out of the "uncanny valley" theory here... I think it is obvious that others are growing more "repulsed" by 2D & embracing 3D. When it comes to MYST...this will NEVER be the case for me....OTHER GAMES...perhaps. I think that if the "traditional" approach is put into the right hands... wonderfully new accomplishments can still be achieved. I've seen the best results in the MYST series thus far. Again that is also why I'm disappointed not to see the final installment of MYST in the "traditional appraoch." I hope others continue to attempt making games in this style...something incredible COULD happen?!

By the way...saw images from that Golden KI you mentioned...& solely for purposes of this discussion I'll just say nothing really that impressive about it...even with the lighting...looks kinda like URU or MYST V. While there is a lot of work going into these types of games (which is impressive) & I don't want to discount that effort because I truly do respect it....so a tremendous amount of work goes into a REVELATION let's say or any other of the "traditional" style games of MYST where I also think the effect of lighting is FAR superior!!
I'm in agreement with larsschermer when it comes to the lighting "issue"...

In response to your comment about being more attracted to MYST V than other 3D realtime games...I do agree with you there...

Oh & one final thing in response to your market suicide quote...I agree with you there as well...but just ask yourself if RIVEN, EXILE OR REVELATION was market suicide? I don't think so...

Alahmnat
06-18-2005, 03:24 AM
Interestingly enough, the games tend to get "graded down" in reviews because of their use of such "antiquated" technology as the slideshow format, which believe me is a huge turn-off for a lot of people who might otherwise have greatly enjoyed them. It's silly, perhaps, but no less so than being less attracted to EoA because it's in realtime.

I should also note that none of the games since Myst have sold as well as the original, especially not in the US market. Each release seems to have a smaller and smaller purchase base, so it could potentially be argued that people are moving away from the pre-rendered scenery in favor of less restrictive exploration. Of course, it could also be argued that the fan base itself is shrinking, or that the drop in sales for each game indicates how many people failed to complete the prior adventure... but I do think there is at least some credence to the complaints that Exile and Revelation focused too much on trying to make everything look fantastic at the expense, sometimes, of a well-integrated story. And to better clarify my point about the uncanny valley, it's all well and good to push things to a certain level of realism - as I mentioned, you can't claim that something you threw together in 10 minutes is believable if you can't even tell what it is you're looking at. However, once you hit a certain point, your brain stops filling in details for what's not there (classic example: Myst doesn't have moving water, but a lot of people "remember" it differently) and starts picking up on what's there that shouldn't be, and for me, at least, being a student of this technology, it's a lot easier to catch things that are subtly off in pre-rendered images than most, so that may be part of my reluctance to avidly follow the format. I just find myself more forgiving of realtime stuff, even if it does start acting quirky every now and then, because my brain does the job of filling in what's missing when I recollect on my explorations, rather than getting hung up on how weird or out of place something looked.

I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion now... not because I'm frustrated or because I've given up, but because I don't think I have anything else to contribute to the conversation, and I don't want to start getting snipey http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

And for the record, don't worry too much about stumbling on etiquette... it tends to happen when folks are new, so we're fairly forgiving of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

neo...1
06-18-2005, 09:45 AM
It is unfortunate that you're going to drop out of the debate/discussion Alahmnat...a little "snippiness" is to be expected in a healthy debate I would think... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif Admittedly...I'm at fault for that from time to time certainly more than you...(in my defense I am fielding a number of different responses)...I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary though Alahmnat...I always expect it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I'll try to be "less snippy"...I certainly don't want to push you or anyone away from the discussion...but I won't guarantee it either...It would seem that this is a more "heated" or sensitive issue...so I'm taking it as it comes...I wouldn't mind at all if you got a little more "snippy" you'd probably make even more good points if you did! If you're going to leave though...I do want to say thank you for all your insight & sorry if I pushed you away...

The games may tend to be "graded" down as you say...sure... there are plenty of "reviews" on the favor of 3D (as well as other criticisms of MYST) but there are also "reviews" that are clearly in support & could be said to "grade" it upwards! More specifically with credit to the "refinement" of the "traditional" approach. I would say that URU should also be considered in the "grading down" moreso than ALL the others! I don't think URU helped at all.

Generally as a rule, people who are "less patient" & less capable of solving more involved/complex puzzles as well as having difficulty in navigation (utlizing spatial skills) & difficulty in application of logic... are those whose heads begin to spin & ultimately can't settle in with this type of intensity...(I'm not saying this is you either Alahmnat). It's usually the "younger" generation or the much "older" generation but not limited thereto. This intensity is of course what has always made MYST-MYST. It truly does separate the "men from the boys" in that respect. (I think that is also one of the few positives of URU...challenging puzzles to be sure). I think there is also a large majority of people who look for this very challenge to help improve on those areas within themselves. My head always begins to spin with these games...but that's what I look forward to so that I may grow from the game. While I would admit that EXILE was shorter than I liked & perhaps could have developed the story a little more...I feel the stories are solid throughout all the games (including URU) & would imagine MYST V will be as well. A criticism I have of EXILE is actually that it was too easy! Again because MYST is a classic... it's "traditional" methods are where the well-loved story has predominantly found itself. SO it's important to lend credence there...

Certainly the original MYST is the "antiquated" specimen...but I don't think REVELATION is... Maybe so in your mind. And while you can speculate on how much more people would have "greatly" enjoyed a transition into 3D earlier on perhaps... I would argue again that we have to look at what we've got & also stop giving the excuse to URU's failure as solely meant to be created for multiple players...I think there are other factors to be considered when "including" URU into this aspect of the MYST series. You should most definitely consider how many people didn't finish or purchase URU or the "Complete Chronicles!" Perhaps it also effected the sales of REVELATION negatively?? So in using your argument...we would also have to attribute the "grading down" or a "shrinking in fan base" in this respect to URU's fair portion.

I think you have an excellent point when you mention you are more forgiving when it comes to "realtime stuff" (a little more on that in a moment). While I am certainly "less forgiving" when it comes to 3D I think we can at least come to some common ground on your perspective there...from the way you put it. I like to consider myself a student of technology as well...certainly I don't have your job...but I am going to be entering into game development myself...I may not be the guy who renders an actual image but I will be the guy that helps give a base for what "image" is to be created...or ultimately chooses the "traditional" style vs. the "URU" style. That is also PART of my motivation for this discussion. Mostly though this is about MYST for me! It is still possible to be objective even if not entering into the field....there are MANY on BOTH sides of our debate (just maybe not as many in this discussion forum http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )and again I don't want to take away from the hard work you or anyone does on EITHER "side."

I do NOT think in EXILE's or REVELATION's attempt to look "fantastic" the integration of the story was sacrificed... I did mention before that I wish EXILE was a little "longer" as well as more complicated. But again I think the stories are solid & feel EXILE as well as all other MYST games blow URU out of the water. As your opposite on this & in addition to your forgiveness comments for "realtime 3D"... it is far easier for me to pick up on the lack of realism in 3D whether it be bouncing hopping creatures for example or just the overall feel of the environment coupled with the ability to "see" yourself (although you can choose to change the perspective)....thus it is far more difficult for me to forgive...but I guess this is our difference & so it will be for many others.

Anyhow...I look forward to hearing back from you but if not thanks again for supporting the discussion...I think I learned the most from you thus far! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Naquiel
06-18-2005, 01:19 PM
Been a long time, but i think i will give my 2 cents worth.

From what im getting from Neo(sorry in advace if im getting this wrong)is that changing now from prerendering to full 3d realtime is taking away from what we have learned, and used to help portray a part of the storyline. Kinda like us reading regular books for a long long time and then some day we are told that our books now come on a moni disk or memory card to read on a new pda device. The story might not change, but how its shown kinda messes up the feel. We have gotten so use to the old node to node style and take our time exploring what might or might not be at every step we take.

So there is the other views ppl have from what they get from the myst series. Some like the rich story background, or they just like the interaction of just being in a different world to escape the real world. Every one is different and get different views from the games. For me i love the rich story background, i love to explore the different ages and what might come up with each step i take, but i really dont mind that that myst 5 is going to be realtime 3d.

Each myst game was a seperate game onto itself, for me. Myst was great for the excitment of the first time in a new world, getting to know what was there and how things worked. Controls where funny , but it was that way due to computer limitations at the time, but it was a good head start.

Riven was a big jump forward, things looked more real, interaction with things was more fun and the story just exploded. Cyan did great again with what they had.

Excile was one of my favorites (even though cyan didnt make it) was a grand experiance of seeing more of the story from a different point of view. Puzzels where in place, the graphics are still some of the best i have seen, but again the devs where limited on the tools they had. They could of moved to realtime 3d at the time, but cyan might have said no because the technowlogy was not ready yet.

Now URU came out, this was Cyan's chance to try something different, and again(to me)Cyan did great. Full realtime 3d was the next big step and it was great, but there was some problems. The problems i saw where not the 3d envirioment, in its self, but how it was handled. I could say why in full detail why i feel URU online was going fail at the time, but it will be opening a big can of worms. But URU was a big step forward, for ppl like me that love a rich story background, we got alot. From a movement standpoint, we finnaly got to move around in a 3d inviroment. Yes the grafix where a little set back, but to me it was just a hair back.

Path of the Shell was a little messy, but it helped a bit to make the multiplayer game URU onto a single player game. I think it worked out ok, and the ability to see more and learn more of the background story of the D'ni was great.

Revelation is great for what Ubi came up with, but i find that there was some problems with it. The prerendered sceens are great, the story line was very nice(except for some cheesy parts). But from a technowlogy point(especialy from Ubi) the move to 3d could of been made and enhanced(look at Farcry for an example). But with tradition, they stayed with prerendered to keep the style of exploring and the feel of the world your traveling in. I really like the story of the 2 brothers has ended....i hope.

Now for Myst 5, well i cant say much yet since i havent played it. so lets wait and see.


But for the main topic at hand. Going to full 3d realytime to some is taking away from part of the experiance of taking eack step of exploration, but at the same time, ppl can see things in 3d that you couldnt in a prerendered 2d node. Technowlogy has almost caught up, for example, look at some of the new screen shots for UT 2007, Halflife 2, Gear of Wars for Xbox 360, etc... There is alot of really good game engines now that are getting good and realistic, and since most of the myst games are single player, we still can get a very realistic world, characters are getting more real every day, and node to node exploration can be retired and a person can (if they wanted) just take each step to explor anyway they feel free to do.

Uru was the first step that Cyan took to give more freedom to us in exploring, we were able to interact more with the inviroment(i really liked playing with the crab creatures in POTS). We even had the chance to interact with others online(for a short time). But the thrill of exploring was still there even though its was from a different playing enviroment.

I hope the game comes out soon.

neo...1
06-18-2005, 06:29 PM
Hi Naquiel! Thank you for "breaking your silence"... your response was a breath of fresh air!

I like your example of "reading books" and I agree with it on a number of levels. Where that example kind of falls short for me is that I believe the "traditional" style has actually changed over time for the better. As far as other games go I really don€t have an issue when it comes to 3D. You should also know that I am a die-hard MYST fan and that the story is also very important to me as well as how the story has been predominantly portrayed. As a matter of fact... the story & the difficult puzzles are the only things that I do enjoy about URU. Unfortunately, for several reasons but primarily for its lack of "realism" (what continues to be debated) URU to me is like a thorn amongst roses. I certainly agree that CYAN can most likely execute a fantastic 3D game & most likely will continue to do so...but if you€ve read some of my other responses that€s not the issue for me. (If URU was considered not a part of the MYST series by others...I wouldn't have an issue either...if it wasn't... I would say it is an exceptional 3D game & the same would go for MYST V).

I really enjoyed reading your shared feelings on each game. It has also been previously mentioned how most people feel that each game can be thought in and of themselves...I agree with this...but I also feel that they are all integrated through the identity of MYST...making up the whole. Meaning what we have primarily come to experience through story & presentation of MYST. My position (sorry to be redundant) on URU & now MYST V is because of how they are presented...they don€t fit in to me. See some other responses I have for further detail...I€m trying to break out of this repetition but I guess it is also the mother of all learning... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I think it€s important to repeat the point that just because CYAN or whomever else had the ability to use 3D for application to the MYST series...doesn€t mean that they should have. If you have a chance or haven€t done so already take a look at some of my other responses in this regard.

I€m tremendously happy to hear your love for EXILE. It too is one of my favorites. I€m also glad that EXILE was not rendered in the URU style! Again I don€t think because REVELATION could have been completed in the 3D style it should have been. I agree with you that the times are changing and many things for the better...but I also include the "traditional" style in the possibility of changing for the better as well. When it comes to the MYST series...(as said before) unless I see Rand Miller or other real actors actually participating "inside" the game as well as what I would classify as "realistic" creatures & environments integrated with the story... it just doesn€t (URU) or won€t (MYST V) feel like a MYST game to me. But as stated so many times before...to each their own.

I feel (also as stated before) that exploration is still highly possible in the "traditional" style. Exploring can be achieved in all the "traditional" style games. REVELATION was highly interactive and incredibly well done in my opinion. I feel it is an excellent example of the "change for the better" or refinement of the "traditional" style...so is EXILE for that matter & so is RIVEN while I'm at it! I think there are STILL excellent possibilities for change to this style as well.

When you mentioned about REVELATION:

"But with tradition, they stayed with pre-rendered to keep the style of exploring and the feel of the world your traveling in."

You said it well. I think this is my fundamental point and has been all along. That by coming this far along since the original MYST...there is still an overwhelming respect & homage being paid for the "traditional" style in MYST & rightly so. Essentially, it is what has dominated the presentation of the series (as again stated numerous times before). I think a point to many of the people who want to include URU into the MYST series should also see that it doesn€t even have a number! 1=MYST 2=RIVEN 3=EXILE & 4=REVELATION
URU=URU & this is why I am upset with MYST V being completed in the 3D form & what has sparked the creation of this discussion forum!. Again to each their own€¦

From the overall feeling I get from your message I€m sure you will enjoy MYST V! As I did try my best to enjoy URU & the "Complete Chronicles" of course I will do the same for MYST V...I just know what the difference is going to be for me....

Thanks for listening...

Mowog
06-19-2005, 07:26 AM
One point that has been made in previous threads is that while Uru could have been considerably more enhanced, and therefore more realistic, it would have risked exceeding the capacities of the typical Myst fan's PC even more than it did anyway. Cyan was sort of caught in a bind here. They wanted to enhance the immersiveness of their adventures with realtime 3D, but they realized that the typical adventure gamer; unlike first-person shooter fans; most likely wouldn't have the latest and greatest computers or video cards. They had to seek out a middle ground where they could satisfy the most customers while still having an impressive-looking product. I had to swap out the video card in my VAIO just to play Uru, and that was no big deal. But then I'm fairly technically-oriented by nature, and was kind of itching to go with a hotter video card anyway. But I'm sure that there were a fair number of Uru buyers who took the game home only to find that it simply wouldn't run on their PCs. You can find many of their postings in the Support threads on this forum; for the most part, they had insufficient or incompatible video hardware. So yeah, Uru could have been a lot more realistic... and a lot fewer people could have played it.

Note that if you enjoy realism, try running Uru in 3D stereo using liquid crystal shutter glasses; sit up close to the screen so the scene fills your entire field of view, and walk into the image. Astonishing...

And you can't do THAT with a pre-rendered game.

neo...1
06-19-2005, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback on URU "Mowog"....

I have a pretty good sound system...sound has never been the issue for me (except of course the difference in linking books....when you link in URU... even the sound is less realistic than when you link in the other "tradtional" style games). I've never heard of liquid crystal shutter glasses (not sure if you're joking or not about that)...but my monitor is liquid crystal...& with all due respect you shouldn't have to put anything over your eyes for the game to give you that astonishing sense of realism! That could be the equivalent of saying...just take a hit of acid or some other mind altering hallucinogen to get the desired effect! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'll take the pre-rendered thank you!

Boyue65
06-21-2005, 08:50 AM
I, for one, will enjoy walking around the various Ages in Myst 5 in full 3D. I'll have to turn off that dratted point-click interface, of course, but there you go.

My ultimate hope for Myst 5 is that it somehow will look for the stuff you've cleared out of Uru and let you go back there and such. They run on the same engine and all, so all that the Myst 5 engine would have to do is disable the Havok physics stuff and let us peruse at our ease. It would be ten times better if there was a reason to go back to the old Ages, but the odds of that are just about nil.

neo...1
06-21-2005, 03:40 PM
Hi Boyue65 thanks for the feedback!
I'm sure you will enjoy MYST 5 & I will try to enjoy it as much as is possible for me! I think you have an interesting point about being able to explore the "old Ages" in MYST 5...who knows seeing things in that light may change my view to some extent....

Peace! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Alahmnat
06-21-2005, 05:02 PM
Yeah, I know I said I'm staying out of this, but I do need to keep an eye on threads, even if I don't say anything, and I wanted to address a technical side-note http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.


Originally posted by Boyue65:
My ultimate hope for Myst 5 is that it somehow will look for the stuff you've cleared out of Uru and let you go back there and such. They run on the same engine and all, so all that the Myst 5 engine would have to do is disable the Havok physics stuff and let us peruse at our ease.
There have been other optimizations and changes made to the engine between Uru and End of Ages beyond replacing the physics engine (which is no small feat, and not something you can just turn off). Odds are they've also changed their file encryptions since the H'uru team has already gotten the Uru data decoded to some degree, so the new engine will likely not understand how to read the old files.

The biggest change, though, is the interface... EoA's navigation controls are very different from those in Uru, and the Uru Age files would require a lot of editing to be compatible with the new control scheme (especially the node-to-node mode).

As nice as it would be, I'm afraid that, even if only from a technical standpoint (to say nothing of story continuity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), it just wouldn't be possible to bring your Uru data into EoA.

I do think we're going to see a few other familiar places, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

neo...1
06-21-2005, 08:58 PM
Alahmnat...things are much more exciting & informative with you "staying in it".... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mowog
06-22-2005, 05:03 PM
I have a pretty good sound system...sound has never been the issue for me Nope, not stereo sound... stereo imaging. Where your video card alternatively paints left & right eye views, and the glasses alternatively block each view, ensuring that each eye only sees the view meant for it. The result is simulated depth in the scene; that is, objects actually appear to be closer or farther away. Playing Uru in stereo is like looking into a diorama, vs merely a flat monitor screen.

HERE (http://www.edimensional.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29) are the glasses I'm using. Note that the things work with pretty much any realtime 3D game, such as shooters and the like.

Note too that I've been a stereo imaging fan for years, and have experimented successfully with stereo photography and graphics.

mszv
06-22-2005, 06:57 PM
I'm saving up my pennies for those glasses, Mowog! Wow - I want to try them!

neo...1
06-22-2005, 09:07 PM
Hey Mowog....
Man you really are a hardcore gamer...I'll have to give those a whirl....thanks for the link...maybe that'll get me over my 3D "issues." I'll leave it at that...I suppose if I can't fully enjoy 3D the way I've been arduously attempting to explain the way I do in the "purity" of let's say REVELATION or the other traditional MYST games...what've I got to lose! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif (That is...besides $70.00)

ChaoticCoyote
06-23-2005, 08:35 AM
Please turn your sarcasm detectors on.


Originally posted by ivanxuereb:
We would still have computers with a command line interface
I spend most of my time programming on Unix systems, and find many tasks work far better from a command line.

We would still have the inquisition
To keep my job, I just went through several hours of interview with a certain federal security agency. Lots of questions about loyalty, intentions, my past involvement in social justice... no thumbscrews, but a harbinger of where the U.S. is heading as a nation.

Movies would be in black and white and speechless
Given the current quality of movies -- lots of flash and noise, not much substance -- I'm not so sure that a silent film isn't better. Metropolis is an excellent example of a film that would be difficult to improve upon with voice acting.

We would ride a donkey/horse if we needed to go anywhere
Have you priced gas recently?

Things change.
Yes they do, but not always for the better. That said, I have loved (or at least liked) all of the Myst games, realMyst and Riven being my favorites. Uru is far better than its critics claim, and is a shining example of a vision that could not attain its lofty goals. As much as I hated the jumping games in Uru, I also found my annoyance more than compensated by the game's freedom of movement and dynamicism.

As an interactive story-telling medium, 3D offers options not available in pre-rendered form, and I look forward to seeing what Cyan can do with Atrus and his messed-up family.

neo...1
06-24-2005, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
Hey Chaotic Coyote,

Excellent job detecting that sarcasm.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I detected that earlier & gave my response...think he completely missed the point of the conversation at the time.

Happy to hear that RIVEN is amongst one of your favorites. It's undoubtedly one of mine too.

In response to:


"...Uru is far better than its critics claim, and is a shining example of a vision that could not attain its lofty goals. As much as I hated the jumping games in Uru, I also found my annoyance more than compensated by the game's freedom of movement and dynamicism."

&

"As an interactive story-telling medium, 3D offers options not available in pre-rendered form, and I look forward to seeing what Cyan can do with Atrus and his messed-up family..."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif First just a laugh at the "I look forward to seeing what Cyan can do with Atrus and his messed-up family..." ...pretty funny coyote. I do too...I hope it's not over with MYST V...

To stay positive about URU for a moment...I certainly enjoyed the puzzles, depth of story & detail in history able to be experienced in URU. I enjoyed watching the RELTO blossom into a more beautiful place & experiencing the fissure open....although all accomplished with a considerable lack of "realism." Certainly I feel the intentions or "lofty goals" as you say were high but you also said it well when this vision could not be attained...others may disagree with you on that point... but I most definitely would not. I did not care for the "jumping" games at all nor did I really experience the "freedom" you describe or dynamicsm either. I believe this "freedom" everyone is mentioning as mainly an attribute of 3D doesn't always constitue actual freedom. As said earlier...I think if a "pre-rendered game is done well enough... like RIVEN & its successors...freedom can be experienced there as well. Most definitely dynamicism. Ultimately this debate winds up being "solved" by being left to the "eye of the beholder."
However just another word on RIVEN. RIVEN is one of the most dynamic MYST games. Incredible really. Its depth is un-matched in my opinion as it is all integrated into an incredibly realistic "traditional style" game & storyline.

What has also been my ongoing argument (if you've seen some of my other responses) is that THE VERY SAME THING YOU SAID:

"As an interactive story-telling medium, 3D offers options not available in pre-rendered form..."

CAN ALSO be said about the pre-rendered game. Why can't I see Atrus (Rand Miller) or some other "real" character in the URU game...why does it have to be a "robot-rendered looking character? or a ridiculous looking "jumping creature" as seen in MYST V & at the end of URU? So we do have to admit...as much as many people do not want to...that there are things that the "pre-rendered" or "traditional style" game offers that 3D currently cannot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
As said SO many time before... I'd much rather have the "realism" of the environment & characters that the "pre-rendered" has offered & offers. Said another way...make a very good pre-rendered game & to explore through it will be a beautiful thing... which is essentially the entire MYST series 1-4!

Thanks for listening...

ivanxuereb
06-25-2005, 12:44 AM
"pre-rendered" or "traditional style" game offers that 3D currently cannot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Yes but rendering an image with the detail of Revelation takes alot of time. Imagine after rendering a complicated scene. The developer looks at the scene and says "Oh no! I forgot to turn on the shadows!" Plus during Revelation, everytime I saw a rendered cut scene (like climbing stairs) I knew what was comming, the colours went bad. My point: rendering hi-quality images and cut scenes takes time which Cyan dosn't have.

neo...1
06-25-2005, 09:40 AM
Fair enough Ivan! A beautiful point...

Final tid-bits in that regard...if this is to be the final installment of MYST V I think they should have taken the time...however long they needed....I certainly would have waited. But I guess that's not being too realistic or something??! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. During REVELATION everytime a rendered "cut scene" came...I don't think the colors went "bad" ...they did change for the purpose of movement but I actually enjoy those transitions...if anything they come across 10 time more realistic & believable than what I've seen in URU or "3D" style. I think if this "traditional" style continues to be refined & worked on all the more... that is...TIME IS TAKEN for it....even those "rendered cut scenes" you mention will blend in for the better. Look at RIVEN for instance...open up the secret passage from where the prisoner is captured...when the stone moves...the color fades but it still seems real....or look at any pre-rendered "scene" in RIVEN...then look at them in EXILE...then look at them in REVELATION....there is clearly a refinement & change for the better...I think it can & will continue to do so (to repeat-get better).
Just the opening title of REVELATION (since you mentioned REVELATION) with Atrus speaking & writing to the "player" as well as seeing the linking chamber with the two books beaming with light open as a deeper part of the story is revealed...still gives me chills! O http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Of course the music has a considerable effect on that as well. But that's just a hair of an experience before the game even starts that really gets me into it.

Anyways...just more food for the discussion... My hope is that a crew or someone decides to take on the discipline & time involved to produce something like a MYST in the future by utilizing the "traditional" method coupled with TIME taking efforts.... I'm actually going to do it I think! Thanks for listening! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ivanxuereb
06-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Well, if I wanted a game to be realistic I would not include an intro movie or a main menu. Remember Myst and Riven? You'd just click on the book in Myst and you start playing. And in Riven you'd hear Atrus' debrifing and then go straight to action. I'm surprised you liked how Revelations started given the fact that you like "tradition"
And as for the Revelation nodes and transactions, in real life (since you are comparing the games to reality) when I walk I am not limited to huge paces and unable to stop in between. Also when I climb stairs or use elevators colours don't just "change" or "transect"(go to 16 bits).

Mowog
06-25-2005, 01:19 PM
Man you really are a hardcore gamer... Anything but, actually. Just a Myst fan who happens to have a long-time interest in stereo imaging. I was thrilled silly to find out I could actually play Uru in 3D.

The whole stereo Uru thing started back in February of '04 when I started experimenting with generation of stereo pairs while playing Uru. Hogarth1 was another Uru fan who pitched in with some great contributions. FYI, stereo pairs are sets of static images that you can view in depth by (in this case) crossing your eyes to converge the two images. The effect is amazing. I documented the whole thing by starting a thread HERE (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=746109302&m=802108612), and in the ensuing discussion it was revealed that nVidia had stereo drivers for their graphics cards that would allow realtime stereo in Uru and similar games.

Hope you enjoy that thread, by the way. Some of us posted pairs we generated, and the scenery's pretty nice. It takes some practice to get the crossed-eye viewing method down, but once you do it's just silly fun.

I posted a large collection of my favorite pairs HERE (http://www.ketcherside.net/uru_3d.htm). Make sure your screen res is set pretty large, max your browser window, sit about three feet back from your screen, cross your eyes, and prepare to be blown out of your socks.

neo...1
06-25-2005, 03:51 PM
TO IVAN:

Well Ivan what can I say...to each his own buddy. If you don't get what I'm saying by now you probably won't get it....you may feel the same about me.

I don't know how much more traditional you can get other than seeing Rand Miller (Atrus) speaking to you & requesting your presence because he needs your help in regards to his sons...which is probably the MOST TRADITIONALLY rooted aspect of the story linking back to the first of the MYST series??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I just have to laugh at this point. If you can't see the beauty & realism in those introductions REVELATION & now I'll add EXILE) as well as their fusion into the game as being more realistic...than hey too bad so sad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I won't even attempt to mention all the renderings inside REVELATION that were "traditionaly realistic" to an outstanding degree...

Nothing wrong with the use of a menu....simply a refinement of RIVEN when you'd press the spacebar or maybe esc key and have options to change effects with transitions/zip mode or stopping/saving & ending a game...I think practicality is certainly a form of being realistic as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As far as your disfavor for change in colors when you ascend stairs or whatever else... well again I still think that this issue can be even more well refined and has been since the originals....I'll take that slight change of color knowing that it has a very good sense of realism to it. Just like I said several responses ago that I'd take the "puppet" YODA in the context of realistic environments & other "real" people in the environment helping "YODA"... the puppet... to come across more real! You can have your bouncing hopping creatures and animated characters of URU & MYST V...& I'll have my more realistic verisions of creatures/environments & "REAL" people in the MYST series from my point of view. I think "walking" down or up or anywhere for that matter in URU with an avatar that is supposedly made to look like you (if you want) comes across as kinda un-realistic too....I know people have grown to love avatars but not me! I tried playing from the first person perspective as much as possible but with URU it just wasn't the same as in ALL the other MYST games. In URU just the trees in RELTO look fake...I'm going to stop before I really start knit-picking....

The point for me Ivan is that your argument unfortuantely just doesn't hold any water.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif especially after having written in this regard so many times before... I won't go into depth again about it here. Sorry if I've frustrated you! But this basically just leads back to the two different ways of approaching gaming....nothing new here that hasn't been said before. We each have a way we prefer & find to be more realistic. Enjoy MYST V! Thanks...

neo...1
06-25-2005, 04:06 PM
Hey Mowog....looks like some very cool data you have constructed & for me to experiement with! Thank you for the threads....but just to make sure.... I will need the glasses to get the effect...is that correct?

Mowog
06-25-2005, 05:51 PM
I will need the glasses to get the effect...is that correct?
Not for the stereo pairs. You view them by just crossing your eyes to superimpose the two images into a "third" one in the middle, and that one will have depth. Good advice; pick a single small object on each side, and concentrate on superimposing just that object. Then the rest of the picture should jump out at you.

Again, it takes practice. Don't be discouraged at first! Once you get it, you'll be amazed. These Uru pairs will be a really good way to learn the technique.

neo...1
06-25-2005, 11:19 PM
Well Mowog...after long & sometimes painful discipline of crossing my eyes... I successfully experienced what you mentioned. Thanks for the "silly fun" & I enjoyed your effort! I have to say it WAS AMAZING! I will also say though... that I'll be ****ed if I had to do that to actually play a game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif NO WAY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif That reminded me of those "Magic Eye" "Hidden Dimensions" books that traumatized me a couple years ago! Loved them though! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

dawnadunn
06-25-2005, 11:37 PM
Mowog...

I purchased the E-Dimensional Glasses a long time ago (while I was still using a CRT monitor). By the time I paid in $CDN..and...the Customs taxes...they cost a fortune.

I was NEVER able to get them to work properly...and...now that I have an LCD Monitor...they want us to purchase a totally new set of glasses..!!! Surely they shoul be able to provide us with updated drivers, etc.

Can you think of any other solution so that I can view MYST V in 3-D...??

I anxiously await your opinion.

Mowog
06-26-2005, 01:15 PM
I successfully experienced what you mentioned.
Cool, isn't it? Note that if you sit back further from your screen, you don't have to cross your eyes quite as much; plus, the effect is a little better that way because there's less parallax between the two pictures.

Dawnadunn --

Nice to see you again! Seems like it's been a long time since I've come across one of your posts. Anyway, regarding the initial troubles you had with the glasses, I ran into the same thing once when I upgraded my nVidia drivers to play Myst IV. I lost my stereo capabilities. I later found that I could roll my drivers back to a previous version, regain stereo, and play both Uru and Myst IV. Heimdall was able to point me to the right drivers, and the fix was simple. I'm currently using the 56.72 main drivers, and I'm not sure what stereo drivers are currently in there... just so the version numbers match. But -- you're using an LCD so I'm not sure. Back when the above referenced thread first ran, there was mention of upcoming LCD-compatible drivers, but I don't recall anything about having to use different glasses. You're right, that's a pain! Sorry I can't offer much help there, as I've used a CRT all along.

dawnadunn
06-26-2005, 01:42 PM
Hi Mowog...

You're right...it has been a while since I have posted, although I have been keeping an eye on y'all... and anxiously awaiting MYST V..!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do remember all your posts about the 3-D glasses. As a matter of fact...it was because of your posts (even your cross-eyed ones) that prompted me to purchase the E-Dimensional glasses. It was shortly after my purchase that I ended up getting an LCD monitor. And I also remember all the "rumours" about new drivers to accomodate the LCD...and was waiting. But alas, it is my understanding that it requires another purchase of glasses. (Perhaps I'll go to the E-Dimensional site and read it again. Hopefully I am wrong.)


I am using ATI Drivers..not nVidia. Thanx for the response however. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


BTW...I'm still "stuck" with a Collector's Edition of Revelation. If you remember, a few Canadians bought a bunch of copies and sent them out to our forum buddies. One of them "pooped" out on us. Do you know of anyone who would still like an unopened copy..?

monsieurdavid
06-27-2005, 04:36 PM
Is this thread going to be published in paperback soon? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

neo...1
06-27-2005, 05:37 PM
Is that your way of saying you like the thread? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
Who knows! Maybe it will SELL! Then we can all get a piece of the action based on our contrbutions...hmmm maybe we should start writing some more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ivanxuereb
06-28-2005, 03:31 AM
A movie would be better, with bullet time scenes and all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dark Screen
06-28-2005, 07:35 AM
The responses in this thread are way too long. It took me a few weeks to read it all. I think I read most of it now.

I have seen no good reason to have Myst V be 2d. The "traditional style" argument is really lame.

The transitions to video in Myst IV are HILARIOUS! I love the one that is in the demo (also in the real game). It really pissed me off. I think the problem is they added a bunch of animation ontop of the prerendered image and once it goes to a video, these animations dissapear. This results in major changes when a video starts. I think they are even worse than the old myst games.

I like 3d because I can look everywhere.

thewebb
06-28-2005, 10:24 AM
wow, mowog, cool stereo imaging! it's kinda like a different way of doing those magic eye 3D pictures, although really it's more like, say, IMAX 3D movies - giving a slightly different image to each eye to simulate real world situations where each eye has a different view, purely because they are a small distance from each other.

come to think of it, it would be quite easy to do. all you have to do is make a two screenshots, one from a slightly different position. i gotta try that!

thewebb
06-28-2005, 11:09 AM
just gave it a go with some success using half-life 2. the only thing is the crosshair, which i couldn't get rid of, is of course in the exact same place in each shot which means the brain interprets it as infinitely far away, which is why it appears to be embedded behind the door. overall didn't turn out as well as most (if not all) of those uru ones. i guess it's a matter of choosing scenery well and knowing how far away the shots should be. but it's not bad and fun to do - thanks for the idea, mowog!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/jamespdwebb/3Dpic2.jpg

edit: made another one. this is a little better. the shots are quire close together (which i guess makes sense - eyes are close together) more mixture of scenery in foreground and background works better too. my attempt to do that last time with the wall on the left didn't work as well.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/jamespdwebb/3Dpic3.jpg

neo...1
06-28-2005, 01:15 PM
TO Darkscreen...

Ahhhh my total opposite returns! Pleasure to e-speak again! I think the responses are exactly how they should be...maybe TOO SHORT in some instances! I will apologize for my own lengthy responses if they have caused your "brain" to work a little too hard in seeing an opposing view. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Some have seen a few good reasons & some have not..you're one of the "NOTS" obviously. Glad you did spend some time reading the unbelievably daunting & lengthy thread though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (SARCASM ALERT)...Ohhh the torture...

SO you feel the intro to REVEALTION is "HILARIOUS" huh! I'm not sure what is more hilarious though.... the attempt in REVELATION's introduction to set a realistic tone & environment that you will actually be encountering with "real" people seen in the introduction....or let's say URU or MYST V's HILARIOUS looking animated characters, "unrealistic" environments & BUG-CREATURES who scamper about like crickets? Or maybe the foney looking avatars or possibly the trees as I mentioned seen in the RELTO but not limited soley to RELTO....I better stop here because this may get too lengthy for you... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now...admittedly there are some scenes in REVELATION that give me a chuckle... like when Achenar speaks to you in his blundering madness, when Sirrus screams "I am Sirrus & I will not be defeated" and there are a few more worth a laugh to be sure... But this humour should be kept in the light of knowing that the game itself has been wonderfully rendered & integrates a true sense of realism (from my perspective). SO I'll repeat for the hundreth time...to each his own.

I like 2D for ALL the MYST series games (that was MYST series games) because that is what the entire series predominantly uses... I feel I can ALSO look everywhere (to "your" contrary) & because what I'm actually looking at seems beautifully REAL...far more so than what 3D offers to the MYST series thus far....that's why I like 2D. Ever heard this before?

Your missing my point when looking at REVELATION's "traditional" style. All you'll have to do is play MYST 1-3 then REVELATION to see what has changed FOR THE BETTER in the 2D "traditional" style approach. That's all I've been trying to say and of course that MYST 1-4 have ALL been rendered in the "traditional" style for a good reason...not a "lame" one. I think it's "lame" to not see that! But hey if you don't like it...you don't like it! Enjoy your hopping dancing crickets! That's HILARIOUS! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif...& so is that MYST V "Introductory Trailer"!!

Alahmnat
06-28-2005, 01:23 PM
Hey... be nice. Both of you.

thewebb
06-28-2005, 10:52 PM
i find it pretty amazing that you guys can make 4 pages and roughly 20,000 words arguing one simple point.

neo...1
06-28-2005, 11:07 PM
Hey "thewebb" I am amazed myself... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I hope you didn't spend time counting all those words though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Like I said earlier...the hope is... "repetition is the mother of all learning" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

By the way thanks for sharing the stereo imaging...I know you're not "counting" that aspect of this forum as the same point included in all 4 pages and 20,000 words right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

thewebb
06-30-2005, 02:30 AM
well i only counted roughly by copying and pasting say page 2 to word and word counting it (it's about 5600) then multiply by 4 and subtract a bit for sigs, the fact that page 4 isn't full, 3D imaging discussion etc. so i suppose i wasn't counting that.

neo...1
06-30-2005, 10:30 AM
!!SO you weren't kidding?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Darcphaze
06-30-2005, 12:54 PM
After all is said and done here, does it really matter how its rendered? Isn't it actually all the facets of the game that have intrigued us for years, no matter how it was rendered? Sure one may be mentally easier than another, sure one may be easier on the eye or the hand than another. All that is superfluous (and I just know I'm gonna get it for saying so).

No matter where I was in the game, no matter what edition, no matter how it was done, the richness has always been appreciated, but I was never thinking about it when I was playing. Don't get me wrong. If I came across a shot that was exquisite, I'd Oooo and Ahhh with everybody else, but always it was the premise of the game, the original fubar that caused everything else that followed. Someone in trouble? Someone missing? Something went boom? Somebody got ticked? Someone, don't know who, can't be trusted? That question whatever it was, was the crux of the game, and how its resolved is different for every person who plays.

When you let the eye candy take away from the substance of any game, that game is diminished, no matter what game it is. You can have every trick, every special effect, every known twist of visual anamolies known to man! but if it doesn't have that intriguing question, its a repetitious game you eventually grow tired of.

I can say many things about the Myst series, but I have yet to grow tired of it. At least once a year, I reinstall it from the beginning and play it all over again. I'm sorry anyone is disappointed in the game's originality.

Sorry didn't mean to ramble so long. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lanzfan
06-30-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
Just really need to get this off my chest & see if anyone else feels the way I do on this...
I don't want to discount the history & detail of Uru but all the other MYST games are far more superior & enjoyable to me. Take a couple years if you need to "MYST MAKERS" but don't give me the last MYST game ever in a similar form of Uru. This is going to be like when George Lucas gave us the horrible Episode I & Jar Jar binks after 10 years of a sound trilogy....only sooner.
The look, feel, stunning realism, puzzles, gorgeous music, intricate sounds, backgrounds, creatures & characters PERFORM INFINITELY BETTER in the structure of the original MYST games. URU failed not because people couldn't play it on-line together the way it was hoped but because ultimately Uru was nothing like its predecessors & certainly nothing like Revelation (which I believe is the ultimate refinement of the original ideas & structure thus far). Yeah sure, URU is filled with history & further detail for us MYST nuts...but am I the only one who thinks it belongs completely separate from the other series?
I can be far more patient & disciplined in playing the other MYST games...I actually look forward to the challenge! Even long after completing them I love knowing that I can load them up in a moment & walk through them again with enjoyment. There's something special about them...every step taken is treasured...... but when it comes to Uru that feeling is exceedingly underprovided... & after seeing that teaser for MYST V in the "Uru" style... I am enormously disappointed & border-line disgusted.
I don't really care at this point what Rand Miller is saying about MYST V being finished the way it should be & not to worry...to trust the story & such in his interviews....he was saying similar things when Uru was in the works. Unless I hear something like: "we're going to ditch the 'Uru style' idea... take a year or two & develop the final installment of MYST the TRUE WAY it should be...including having HIM in there making a final appearence...it's gonna fall short. This is NO way to end such a powerfully sophisticated & wonderful series RAND!
Even with the so-called top-of-the line graphics, even with the story....URU style is NOT MYST style. They are like night & day. MYST V won't be able to touch Revelation or Exile or Riven or even the 1st Myst. Uru just doesn't fit in with the others no matter how hard it has tried & neither will this MYST V unfortunately. It would have been better to just end it with Revelation & not get my hopes up for a grand finale in the form of a childish Uru game. I will of course try my best to see the good in MYST V like I did with Uru...but I already know...ESPECIALLY after seeing that "Trailer Trash" that it's too late. At best it will be fun but it won't satisfy or fulfill like the others....I hope I'm wrong but its not likely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I was stunned when I saw the trailer. I wasn't that excited about Myst 5 up to that point, especially because I haven't beaten Revelations yet. But when I saw the trailer I was ready to pay 50 bucks almost on the spot. The graphics looked soooooooo amazing! And when I saw Myst island in there, well, that was something. I don't want to know anything more though.

But I agree that Uru is not quite the same as the Myst line. I think mostly because there were no people (real actors I mean, like Saveedro {sp?}) in the gameplay, and that kind of bothered me. But whatever Rand can put out, so long as it's not a First Person Shooter :P, I'll buy it. Especially since there's a few others in my family who will help pay for the game too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ivanxuereb
06-30-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by lanzfan:

I was stunned when I saw the trailer. I wasn't that excited about Myst 5 up to that point, especially because I haven't beaten Revelations yet. But when I saw the trailer I was ready to pay 50 bucks almost on the spot. The graphics looked soooooooo amazing! And when I saw Myst island in there, well, that was something. I don't want to know anything more though. Remember: the game is still in beta so things may change, for the better I hope. Oh, and that guy who was writing on the slate? He's not going to look the same because the Ubi marketing guys created him for the trailer.

lanzfan
06-30-2005, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by ivanxuereb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lanzfan:

I was stunned when I saw the trailer. I wasn't that excited about Myst 5 up to that point, especially because I haven't beaten Revelations yet. But when I saw the trailer I was ready to pay 50 bucks almost on the spot. The graphics looked soooooooo amazing! And when I saw Myst island in there, well, that was something. I don't want to know anything more though. Oh, and that guy who was writing on the slate? He's not going to look the same because the Ubi marketing guys created him for the trailer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He looked to me like he would only be in the intro or something.

BTW, from what I saw there, I'd be happy if it was released today. That's how great the graphics looked to me.

neo...1
06-30-2005, 10:22 PM
First TO DARCPHAZE...

Please don't apologize for the length of your response...or "rambling on" ...this forum discussion seems to require more involved responses to express our views (I know mine in particular http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) So please ramble on...contrary to what some other people may feel.

In response to your first quote...no where has it been mentioned (at least by me) about a preference in rendering because of its "ease of use" or "ease on the eye or hand"....I would agree that those issues can also be seen as "superfluous" as you put it. Like I have said a few times before..."after all is said and done" what will be...is...what will be. It's certainly not in my hands & MYST V is going to come out in 3D just like URU did. That said... I certainly do think as far as the MYST series go.... how they HAVE BEEN and ARE rendered does "matter."

You may not even realize it as you stated...but the intrigue & story that is so important and that you have grown to love in the MYST series over the years...has predominantly been "rendered" in the "traditional" style. I think that has a significant impact whether people are aware of it or not....care or not. Out of all the MYST series...I personally felt a negatively dramatic difference when playing URU...there are reasons for this. I think I know what they are & so I will anticipate the same type of disappointment in MYST V (regardles of one reason being that URU was going to be multi-player). On the whole...as a series...4 out of 6 aint bad results!

Also never have I felt that the "eye candy" replaces or diminishes the "substance" of the game. I feel that it has only enhanced what is there or the "substance" for the better. That said...when I play URU... I feel that the rendering or "every known twist of visual anomaly" that was used... did in fact diminish the "experience" of the MYST series or the "substance" of URU because of how the majority of the MYST games have been "rendered" and experienced over the years. This is an old point...see some other responses for further detail if you want).

I actually said the same thing you did in one of my earlier responses....I also enjoy loading up the MYST series 1-4 & playing or "walking" through them to this day...I have even tried URU a few extra times all the way through...but URU and the way it is experienced still remains & will remain a disappointment for all the reasons I've been rambling on about since the start of this discussion forum. Everything else (besides URU) is GOLDEN to me thus far!

TO IANZFAN:

Thanks for the feedback. It just helps to underline the point that everyone has their own view on this. I certainly don't feel anything "positive" about MYST V after seeing that trailer as well as experiencing the "in-game" footage. Alahmnat has a pretty informative response to me in regards to the trailer on page 1 (2nd thread)...similar to what ivan mentioned...that the game itself isn't going to look like how the trailer presents it. I hope too it's for the better...

I'm glad we share & understand a "bothersome" level of feelings when it comes to URU... but I also feel that MYST V will leave me with those same types of feelings. I am also a Rand Miller fan & will be buying MYST V regardless of what I anticipate. I have a profound respect for the MYST series and that is where I am primarily coming from in starting this discussion forum and continuing to debate!

lanzfan
07-01-2005, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by neo...1:
TO IANZFAN:

Thanks for the feedback. It just helps to underline the point that everyone has their own view on this. I certainly don't feel anything "positive" about MYST V after seeing that trailer as well as experiencing the "in-game" footage. Alahmnat has a pretty informative response to me in regards to the trailer on page 1 (2nd thread)...similar to what ivan mentioned...that the game itself isn't going to look like how the trailer presents it. I hope too it's for the better...

I'm glad we share & understand a "bothersome" level of feelings when it comes to URU... but I also feel that MYST V will leave me with those same types of feelings. I am also a Rand Miller fan & will be buying MYST V regardless of what I anticipate. I have a profound respect for the MYST series and that is where I am primarily coming from in starting this discussion forum and continuing to debate!

Umm, that's Lanzfan. I'm a big David Lanz (davidlanz.com) fan you see... :P

Anyways, looks like you've put a whole lot of time into this! I might be a Myst fan but I have never really spent enough hours in the community and doing similar stuff. So you've probably got more knowledge concerning Myst 5.

So I agree that the URU types aren't quite the same. Myst IV (4) is something else in that you have the Myst\Riven style screen by screen gameplay but there's also the stunning graphics. But 1 of the modes in Myst 5 should help keep some of that (you know, 1 mode where you can play screen by screen, the other is of the FPS type.) The 1st that mentioned will (I hope) make it like Myst, Riven, etc...

neo...1
07-01-2005, 12:58 AM
TO LLLLLLanzfan

"Umm, that's Lanzfan. I'm a big David Lanz (davidlanz.com) fan you see... "

Sorry about the L buddy!

Yeah I have been putting a good deal of time into this....but seeing how this is a topic of interest it doesn't take me too long to get the responses out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif This is actually my first attempt at starting a discussion forum...it has been based on the fundamental differences of "rendering" between URU & now MYST V with the rest of the series. I'm not sure how much more I know than you in regards to MYST V...I'm just coming from a particular point of view from after experiencing ALL the games & looking to see who else seems to feel like I do or not...& grow from the "why's" and "why nots." I am also in the process of learning game-development for creating a "MYST-LIKE" game & this is also helpful for me to see what route I should undertake....but for the most part this is about the MYST series & its closure.

I'm glad we also share an appreciation for MYST IV (as I'm sure you enjoy the other games in the series)...I too feel it to be stunning, realistic & overall... a wonderful challenge. Others certainly have disagreed. As mentioned before I hadn't felt that challenged from a MYST game since RIVEN. In regards to MYST V I was hoping that it actually was going to be a further refinement of MYST IV ...that is... a further refinement of the "traditional style that is used in ALL the other MYST games....which is part of my disappointment and part of the debate! As you mentioned the "node" capability in MYST V I was kinda' hoping for the same thing...for it to pass & satisfy me...but alas...it just doesn't measure up like the others for me. There is a link on the first page of this discussion forum by Alahmnat which leads to the "in-game" footage of MYST V...I think it is http://www.mysterium/ch (http://www.mysterium.ch) (You probably already know this if you've seen the trailer but just in case GO TO MYST V on the left & click "videos." It gives you a very good idea of how the game will be experienced. As I stated in the beginning of the forum...it feels kinda' like a passive version of Doom (with better graphics)!

For me... even if that "node" was superb (as I'm sure it is as close as it can be)...I still feel a need to have real people engaged in the environments rather than animated characters as well as realistic creatures & stunningly realistic imagery/sounds to capture that traditional "MYST" navigational feel that I've grown to love....all certainly integrated with the awesome story-line. If you've spent some time reading the "threads" or "posts" or "responses" as I've learned they are ALL called...you'll see the majority of people disagreeing with me even someone calling my preference/argument "lame!" But the overall point here is an expression of the experience of the MYST series & that to each person "his/her own." I hope you like MYST V!

lanzfan
07-01-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
TO LLLLLLanzfan

Well, I looked at 1 of those videos, spoilers and all. Wow, it is very different. I never played any of those Doom games, but I think I know what you mean. Still, I'm not so sure. I think it does look sort of like the Myst gameplay, with the screen by screen except with movement too. But I know what you meant when you said: "In regards to MYST V I was hoping that it actually was going to be a further refinement of MYST IV ...that is... a further refinement of the "traditional style that is used in ALL the other MYST games....which is part of my disappointment and part of the debate!" But is Cyan for the traditional? It seems like they gave UBI and their buddies the job of keeping the Myst style up while Cyan churns out the fresh stuff.

Here's how I see it:

It seems to me like Myst 3 and 4 were aimed at as many people as possible. You know, sort of like a video game made after a movie, like Star Wars or something. They looked more like the money making types (although I'm not putting them down in the least. They are superb!) But I think Cyan is more for the groundbreaking new strategies.

They started with Myst and man was that groundbreaking. Riven was too but to a lesser amount. They moved on to Uru and their attempt at Uru Live. Both were groundbreaking again, 1 was too much perhaps. Moving people to get CD drives is one thing (Myst). Moving all Myst fans to get broadband (URU Live) seemed to be too much. Too bad. Anyways, it looks like they want to start some other groundbreaking project (I really hope that it's not a insanely violent FPS though) so they needed to cut the Myst\Uru series, for now....

So, what's my point? Ummm... I just lost it :P. Well, I guess I'm just saying that Cyan seems more for the new, untried types of games. If they left it UBI, Myst 5 would probably be very similar to 4 but might not have the same meaning. They might have brought Saveedro back again. Tossed in Achenar and company and then brought Yeesha to save the day or something. Well, I know they'd do a better job then that but it would be Hollywoodish, no doubt. So looks like Cyan is trying to go with the newer, the bigger, and the better....The End of Ages.

Anyways, the game looks great to me, but you might well be right when it comes down to playing it this Fall. However, I TOTALLY agree with you on the point about Live Action over Rendered characters. Uru felt somewhat lonely too. But I guess Myst and Riven were even more so, so I can't complain to much.

I guess that's it then! I don't want to waste the time I have before #5 on here all day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Good luck with your game creating!

neo...1
07-01-2005, 10:42 PM
Hey Lanzfan

Thanks for taking the time to share your point of view again...I appreciate it greatly & have learned from you! So your time wasn€t wasted! Yeah... certainly the game play is different and I agree with the comment:

"think it does look sort of like the Myst gameplay, with the screen by screen except with movement too."

I think the key element in your comment being the "sort of" part! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Not sure if you saw the creatures hopping about or running along with you...I particularly don€t care for that AT ALL!

In regards to the question "But is Cyan for the traditional?"

Well apparently in the regard that they are not "for" the "traditional" style when it comes to MYST V... I would say yes. Don€t get me wrong, I€m all for new, creative, fresh, groundbreaking material & approaches (as stated before)...it€s just so funny to me that the more "traditional" rendering seems to be better suited for the MYST series...(I repeat for the MYST series) but hey that€s just me. Part of my argument has been that a visible change for the "better" in the "original" or "traditional" style can also be seen & appreciated. As previously stated...I see REVELATION as the best refinement of the "traditional" approach yet. Anyone who plays the MYST series through from the start can see this for themselves. What I was thinking...or hoping...was that maybe CYAN would do something even more "groundbreaking" within this "style." I believe there are still amazing things that can be done within the "traditional" style... contrary to what A LOT of people are saying. But I am also well aware of the current limitations...I just feel that MYST seems most like MYST when "rendered" in its predominant style of its series.

I don€t think CYAN just passed it off lightly to their buddies to render it for them...I think that in all the ideals & goals they have... they also still have an affinity for the "traditional" because that is what has originated, dominated & rewarded them when it has come to MYST. We€ll see what happens with MYST V. All I know is, myself included, that there is a large majority of people out there who would still prefer playing MYST & would also prefer to play a game LIKE MYST in the "traditional" style vs. that of what 3D can offer them. Certainly there is a large majority who would prefer the 3-D approach as well. What would be incredibly groundbreaking is if 3D evolved (which it probably will) into having the capability to implement real people/characters into even more realistic environments (to use one example)! Anyhow... onwards & upwards for CYAN & am looking forward to anything new they put out...hopefully like you said it won€t be anything insanely violent...if I had to guess...it won€t be...perhaps based on that "affinity" for the traditional I believe they have (obviously I mean several things when it comes to using the term "traditional").

As far as MYST III & IV being aimed at a large majority of people...I think you€re right...that€s really the only way to market anyhow. I don€t think that the games themselves lost anything because of that "target" marketing you mention. As said before if I HAD to choose I€m caught between RIVEN & REVELATION (I go into a little more detail in earlier threads in this regard - if you haven€t read already - as well as lending due respect to the original MYST - so I won€t delve into that again).

I do feel that if CYAN were to go with the "traditional approach" for the final installment..."Grand Finale"... of their MYST series...no matter who they brought back or who they introduced as "new"....I have to believe that it would have been their absolute best or at the very least... equivalent to one of their best..story - characters - presentation... ALL OF IT!

I€m glad we agree when it comes to experiencing "real" people in the rendered approach. I think it has a lot to do with how many people enjoy the game. As far as "loneliness" is concerned...well...typically like you said they all have that "solitary" element to them. I hadn€t really thought of that element effecting my dislike for URU but now that you mention it...the solitude I experience in MYST 1-4 vs. the solitude experienced in URU is far more bearable or enjoyable I guess in MYST 1-4...if that makes any sense!

Thanks for the good luck with my game creating... I€ll definitely need it! Hope you enjoy MYST V http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

lanzfan
07-01-2005, 11:34 PM
As far as "loneliness" is concerned...well...typically like you said they all have that "solitary" element to them. I hadn€t really thought of that element effecting my dislike for URU but now that you mention it...the solitude I experience in MYST 1-4 vs. the solitude experienced in URU is far more bearable or enjoyable I guess in MYST 1-4...if that makes any sense!

It does, exactly.

Well, I'm going to try and finish up this conversation quickly:

1) Yes, I never really liked those "creatures" either (also called the Bahro http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. It's kind of a weird ending to Uru to have those show up, except that the story was supposed to continue... 1 thing though that might explain them showing up in Myst 5: Maybe they're trying to finish up Uru at the same time, at least for now, so they're bringing in the Bahro again. Not to mention Yeesha.

2)I finally clearly understand what you mean: "I see REVELATION as the best refinement of the "traditional" approach yet... What I was thinking...or hoping...was that maybe CYAN would do something even more "groundbreaking" within this "style." I believe there are still amazing things that can be done within the "traditional" style..."

3) I didn't mean to downplay in the least the great job both companies did in either series. And, just to make it clear, I didn't mean that Ubisoft should have made a non-marketable game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

4) Yeah, I doubt any new series would be "insanely violent" but they did hint at possibly making a first person shooter. We shall see.... but we do know that it will be a ground-breaker!

5) I'm pretty sure I will enjoy Myst 5, thank you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, thanks again for the conversation. Although I didn't really have much of a opinion when I started replying, I don't now either http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

No actually, I've gotten a clearer idea of what I want to see in Myst 5.

Lanzfan,

neo...1
07-02-2005, 01:56 AM
Hey Lanzfan!

Glad I could actually make some sense...who would of thunk it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

1) Yes...you're absolutely correct...they are a continuation from URU without a doubt. From seeing them at the very end of URU as well as hearing the sound of strange creatures in the dark during URU...these are certainly signs of the "Bahro" to come.

2) Again thanks for the the understanding!

3) No worries...there's no way I thought you meant they should make an unmarketable game! I'm pretty sure I understood where you were coming from in expressing CYAN's want to advance & work on new things as they simultaneously approved for the making of MYST III & IV (as well as participated in it...i.e Rand Miller "starring" as Atrus!).

4) Didn't hear about the first-person shooter hint...who knows...after seeing MYST V's in game footage they can certainly pull off a "Doom-Like" gruesome shooting game! As mentioned before...I for one was so put-off by the "Bahro" that I had wished it was a little more like Doom so that I could take a few of those creatures out (regardles if they're friendly or not)! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

5.) ----Thank you as well...really enjoyed sharing similar views for a change...appreciate you spending some time sharing your voice.

Peace http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Mowog
07-02-2005, 07:32 AM
Thewebb --

Nice job on the stereo pairs! You've definitely got the idea. They look good!

And as for flailing on about the trailer, please be aware (if you aren't already) that the Ubi trailer is NOT representative of what we'll see in the game. We've gotten that alert straight from Cyan. The trailer used some of the environmental models evidently, but then Ubi's marketing bods took over and turned it into "something completely different."

Have you watched the actual gameplay videos that were posted someplace? If you want to see what the game really looks like, give those a try. And you probably know this already, but Cyan realizes that there are many fans who prefer the node-to-node navigation setup, and have built that option into Myst V. So if you prefer to click your way from scene to scene, no problem. And if you prefer to walk freely, no problem.

And as Alahmnat said, this really is a surprisingly friendly board, and confrontational posts stick out like a sore thumb.

Cheers,

lanzfan
07-02-2005, 12:24 PM
Have you watched the actual gameplay videos that were posted someplace?


I saw 1 of those, even though I don't want to spoil everything. Yes, it was somewhat different from the trailer. I guess my biggest worry should be over the fact that I might not be able to run it well on my computer! I have a Sony 1.8 P4 w/ a G-force FX 5700 (I think) g-card but the whole comp runs like a 1.0 or something. I'm beginning to really dislike Sony... :P

lanzfan
07-02-2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
Didn't hear about the first-person shooter hint...

I didn't actually hear\see that hint myself but my brother (who's done some of his own research) did. I think it was something Rand might have said in an interview or something. Just don't put a lot of trust in that rumor though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

See you,

ivanxuereb
07-02-2005, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
4) Didn't hear about the first-person shooter hint...who knows...after seeing MYST V's in game footage they can certainly pull off a "Doom-Like" gruesome shooting game! As mentioned before...I for one was so put-off by the "Bahro" that I had wished it was a little more like Doom so that I could take a few of those creatures out (regardles if they're friendly or not)! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif So much for tradition http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

go2bermuda
07-02-2005, 02:01 PM
But I agree that Uru is not quite the same as the Myst line. I think mostly because there were no people (real actors I mean, like Saveedro {sp?}) in the gameplay, and that kind of bothered me. But whatever Rand can put out, so long as it's not a First Person Shooter :P, I'll buy it. Especially since there's a few others in my family who will help pay for the game too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i don't know why rand would even think about leaving the live action character thing behind. for the four other mysts, it worked beautifully (i haven't played uru).the idea disgusts me. don't get me wrong, it's beautiful animation, but it's not the same at all. i would rather have a frame based game with the live actors than one without but you can walk around. i am really dissapointed in mr. miller.

-not planning on buying end of ages. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

neo...1
07-02-2005, 02:18 PM
WOW Gotobermuda!

I couldn't agree with you more...that's actually how this forum got started. I am however going to buy MYST V like I did URU... just because somehow/someway it is supposedly connected with the MYST series... although I don't truly feel that to be the case. My heart lies in the MYST series 1-4 as well! Very disappointed on any other approach when it comes to MYST! As stated a few times before as far as I'm concerned MYST IV is the "Grand Finale."

Thanks for the feedback!

TO IVAN: "so much for "tradition"...yeah...so might as well have some kind of fun blowing those Bahro away! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

TO MOWOG: I don't really see anything too confrontational in here either...for the most part I agree...a very friendly & spirited forum... maybe a little "snippy" to use the term Alahmnat mentioned a while back from time to time but all in all for the good in expressing feelings & opinions. Also in regards to the node to node...as stated before... really doesn't make a difference because of the overall feel of the environments & "lack of realism" in comparison to what is experienced in the "traditional" style...from my point of view. A great idea and option for MYST V but nonetheless still lacking....

go2bermuda
07-02-2005, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
WOW Gotobermuda!

I couldn't agree with you more...that's actually how this forum got started. I am however going to buy MYST V like I did URU... just because somehow/someway it is supposedly connected with the MYST series... although I don't truly feel that to be the case. My heart lies in the MYST series 1-4 as well! Very disappointed on any other approach when it comes to MYST!

Thanks for the feedback!

& Yes IVAN "so much for "tradition"...let's blow those Bahro away! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

a very good point. miller said this in an interview i just found
on justadventure.com: "Once you make the switch to real-time 3D, the live-action characters seem disconnected. They don€t fit as well in the environment, the continuity€s not quite there. But we did decide that we would try to do the real-time 3D in ways that no one has ever done and we€ve done them as well as we could. That included full-motion capture €" the studio did motion capture." i think i've cooled off and now it's about a fifty-fifty chance i buy it (maybe once i beat revelations). still, it seems to me that rand wanted to try out a "new toy" and just would like to tell him this isn't the place to do it.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Mowog
07-02-2005, 03:37 PM
I guess my biggest worry should be over the fact that I might not be able to run it well on my computer! I have a Sony 1.8 P4 w/ a G-force FX 5700 (I think) g-card but the whole comp runs like a 1.0 or something. I'm beginning to really dislike Sony... :P
My entire Uru and Revelation experience has been on a Sony VAIO that I've had for about five years. It's got a 1.3 GHz P4, 384 MB RAM, and an nVidia GeForce FX 5200. So my machine is somewhat below your specs, and it handles Uru very well. I'd like to have more RAM, but the RAMBUS modules that shipped with these machines when new have always been quite expensive. At any rate, I'm not expecting any problems running Myst V.

neo...1
07-02-2005, 04:12 PM
TO gotobermuda:

Agree whole-heartedly...and feel that the 3D & new attempts while admirable should have been been saved or applied to anything other than the MYST series! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Phen1
07-03-2005, 01:44 AM
I am so angry. They have officially ruined Myst. In my opinion, they should have stopped with Riven. This is terrible. I think I'll go cry for a week. Goodbye.

JEBWrench
07-03-2005, 09:27 AM
It's not going to be "Uru Style"... It's more FPS control, or node-to-node transfer in a real-time rendered rather than prerendered environment (Your choice of movement method). So you can play it like a normal Myst game.

neo...1
07-03-2005, 11:30 AM
TO PHEN 1:

Wonderful sentiments! While I share most of those feelings...I do love EXILE & REVELATION...
That said...I don't think any other game of the series has matched RIVEN's logic, intrigue, dynamicism, complexity & overall involvement (characters, story, puzzles & worlds). I absolutely agree that "Pre-Rendering ROCKS!" for MYST! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TO JEBWRENCH:

It is not only going to be "URU STYLE"...IT IS "URU style"... no matter how you look at it. Sure there are certainly some excitingly new bells & whistles/extra options for navigation...but animated characters, 3D...realtime...that's all what I would consider to be "URU style"...or said another way if it makes you happy NOT the "traditional style." You said it yourself..."real-time rendered" vs. "pre-rendered." "URU STYLE" vs. "TRADITIONAL MYST STYLE" (for purposes of this discussion forum). You can try and play MYST V like a normal MYST game...but that's precisely what the argument is about...it just simply is not going to play like a "normal" MYST game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mowog
07-03-2005, 02:38 PM
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, remember that it was Cyan's desire all along to go to realtime 3D, but the technology simply didn't exist yet, at least not in a form that would make realtime accessible to the average adventure gamer. They only did pre-rendered because they had to, basically. Trouble is, they did the pre-rendered thing so well that a lot of us have come to prefer it... so when the time was right (and that's open to debate) and Uru was in development, they finally were able to go realtime.

Personally, I enjoy both formats and I'm not going to complain one way or the other. Cyan has brought us some pretty extraordinary adventures, regardless of how they chose to deliver them.

JEBWrench
07-03-2005, 07:21 PM
So, you're telling me that by using an entirely different engine, as well as a different input format, it's the same thing?

It's RealMYST style, not Uru - There's a marked difference between third-person control and first person - if you don't believe me, play Resident Evil and then play System Shock, and tell me they're the same.

I echo Mowog's sentiments entirely. Rather than being elitist about it, I welcome the emergence of something new and potentially effective, especially given that the emphasis on Myst has always been the story, and boiling it down to an interface type is really cheapening your own experience.

neo...1
07-03-2005, 11:10 PM
TO jebWRENCH:

"So I'm telling you:"

...That it is "URU STYLE" & that is all. Everyone over the past 6 pages seem to know where that argument is coming from....mostly the people who don't even agree with me!!! Not sure if you spent the time to read or understand what is being said here in its entirety (many times over) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I certainly don't need to play "Resident Evil" then "System Shock" to see what you are talking about...maybe you should play them again to see what I am talking about if it helps? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif -(I'll explain further momentarily)

Admittedly I have stated that I am a "purist" & favor the "traditional" style when it comes to the MYST series...(that was MYST)and so do MANY others. This may be a good time to mention that we particularly feel that the "makers" of MYST V have "cheapened" the experience (to use your words) not that "we cheapen" the experience....no matter how much money they spend http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif But hey...that's just us! You obviously can think whatever you want to think about my perspective & see what it is you think you see...but maybe... check over the other pages if you get some time?? But especially with it being JULY 4th & all... I would like to underline that it is a "free country" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

At this point I can't argue with you over what seems to be such an obvious difference to me. Especially knowing that people not only see that difference...but it is mostly the people who don't agree with me that see & understand that difference! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Sorry to repeat that. That may not make sense to you if you haven't read all the other pages....then again it still may not. People in this forum generally give the leeway of evolution in this understanding. Meaning that 3D & realtime has evolved & so has 2D or the "traditional" or "pre-rendered" style. That said (for purposes of this discussion forum) all the MYST games are being categorized in a general sense to fit on one side of the spectrum or the other. Maybe that helps?

All the "material" or arguments that you are BOTH in "FAVOR OF" or "echoing" in Mowog's sentiments...(which you may see that I also appreciate & very well echo) and also that which you are "NOT IN FAVOR OF" have been covered already...as MOWOG also mentioned "at the risk of flogging a dead horse"...I am also trying to AVOID that (even if it doesn't seem that way)! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That is not to say I'm not open to further discussion or debate or support or even redundance of a particular opinion or sentiment...clearly that's what this forum is all about! But the issue you bring up unfortunately I see to be a "prevention" of moving forward in this discussion. I'm also spending the time to help clear the air for you...so we can move forward. Said another way...if you don't want to acknowledge or allow the difference of realMYST, URU & MYST V to be "categorized" under 3D and/or Realtime while MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION are to be "categorized" under "Pre-rendered" and or "Traditional Style" than you're going to have a hell of a time based on the sole purpose of this forum which also acknowledges or "allows" for that difference to be seen and argued.

Whether it be realMYST's role...the similarities of 3D...my respect for "change" therein...change itself... CYAN's capabilities both now & in the past...the potential "renderings" availability...the "failings" of URU...the LATEST REVELATION "approval" by CYAN & why... EXILE's approval as well...where things are headed in the gaming industry...as well as other issues...EVERYONE has painted a very clear & solid picture thus far on all those issues AND HOW...as well as seeing the fundamental difference between what would be classified in this discussion as "URU STYLE" vs. "TRADITIONAL STYLE"...sorry to repeat. That's why it has grown. Now if you want to take one of those issues to the next level BY ALL MEANS...or bring up a new one...I eagerly await your response! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ...rather than dread it!

I would request though that you read the other pages closely over (or AGAIN... if you have already ) before you say I'm being "elite" about this issue or not seeing the "categorization." Obviously, I disagree with the "label" of being "elite." I'm sorry if my response to you was so blunt that it made you feel that way. Make my poor ego feel a little better and say I'm being too "traditional" or something when it comes to MYST... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif...but not elite!

Take care & thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TO MOWOG:

I hope you don't think my point of view is "complaining" or "whining" ...otherwise this entire discussion forum would be a TOTAL waste of time. If it were complaining... from my perspective... that would mean I demand MYST V to be "re-made" anew. While I admit I would like to see that... I've already "flogged this horse" by saying that I know nothing I say or do will change MYST V's rendering! So here is how I see what you or others may see as a complaint just in case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif:

To repeat:

The point for me starting this discussion/argument/debate (also based on the TOPIC of discussion)...is to allow for the expression of true feelings experienced in the MYST series, see who else shares those feelings, who does not share those feelings & learn the "why" & "why nots" from them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Coronagold
07-04-2005, 08:19 AM
Mr. Burns - "Heavens, who'd have thought that a simple dinner would turn into a charged political debate?!"

neo...1
07-04-2005, 10:36 AM
Heh Heh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I did!

JEBWrench
07-04-2005, 03:09 PM
See, Neo, I was under the impression that they were referring to the entire engine as a whole -control scheme, lightening methods, texturing effects, etc... My rabid defiance was merely a result of that, and for that, I apologize.

lanzfan
07-04-2005, 06:01 PM
..So my machine is somewhat below your specs, and it handles Uru very well...

Well, it appears that I have some curse concerning computers. They always seem to always run slower for me :P. Maybe Sony isn't really that bad..

neo...1
07-04-2005, 10:36 PM
No worries jebWRENCH...as detailed as some of the responses can be...we are also "painting with broad strokes." Onwards & upwards... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

neo...1
07-17-2005, 11:15 PM
WHEW!

Allright...Allright...coming from me it may seem hypocritical but simmer down buddy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I thought I was passionate about MYST! While I disagree with some of things you said...I also agree...

I certainly share in your disappointment of URU and MYST V. I wouldn't go as far as you did to call everything after RIVEN dung though...amongst some other choice terms you use. I have pretty high standards when it comes to "traditional" MYST but I guess not as high as you!

Since RIVEN I have always been searching for a similar experience offered in a new way if that makes any sense. As you may have read...I felt that REVELATION came the closest since RIVEN...with regards to complexity-dynamicism - puzzle & puzzle incorporation into overall length of game (good story too). Failed Hollywood actresses...maybe you're right there...but I'd still prefer to see them and other real people in the context of rendering a MYST game. EXILE I felt was a good leap from RIVEN but needed more complexity... to paint with a broad stroke. I did enjoy Saveedro's acting while I'm at it...and yes I know he was professional.

I don't need to repeat my feelings in detail as you can ascertain from the start of this forum how much and to what degree I AGREE or disagree with you!

Currently been under-fire for possibly spamming the forums...while it is completely wrong and misplaced...I'm just giving you a heads up to watch the tone in case you come back. Things can be taken the complete wrong way in here. I'll just say the following:
I know where you're coming from & I feel your pain! I do love EXILE & REVELATION. Always love the story and puzzles involved with all the MYST games.
Lastly...stay hopeful...while MYST may be ending...."the end has not yet been written" for other creative endeavors & new possibilities that could give you that "traditional" MYST and RIVEN style you're looking for. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

mszv
07-18-2005, 12:36 AM
I thought I'd try one more time - responding to Neo1's last paragraph. Here goes -

All opinions about the game are welcome, like it, don't like it, not sure about it, like everything, like some things and not other things - it's fine. My warning was on spamming (making multiple threads for the same topic, posting the same post in multiple threads. Oh yeah, and don't bash each other - but you know, that's generally not a problem here1

Hope that's cleared up.

Coronagold
07-18-2005, 06:49 AM
This site should be called Opinions.

Mowog
07-18-2005, 07:40 AM
I don't know why I'm prolonging this, but...

A few years back, my family and I took a cruise up Alaska's Inside Passage. I was just blown away. I spent several evenings on the topmost deck of the ship, all alone, watching the mountains go by on either side and enjoying the fresh sea breeze and misty rain. It was heaven. And the chance to meet the local people and spend some time in the towns, forests, and mountains along the way was a genuine treat. Needless to say, the ship itself was fabulous and we were truly cosseted in luxury.

BUT -- we couldn't help but chuckle at some of our fellow passengers. There was one particular group of folks from New York or New Jersey who appeared to complain about things throughout the entire voyage. If it wasn't the food, it was the weather, and if it wasn't the weather it was the limited amusement in our ports of call. I commented to my wife how ironic it was that these people had ponied up big bucks to go on the cruise, then appeared determined not to enjoy it, no matter what.

I see the Cyan games in a similar light. Even at their weakest, they're still pretty extraordinary, and there's not much else out there to equal them. Getting back to Alaska, when my son and I joined an orienteering team and helicoptered up to the Mendenhall Glacier for a few hours of ice-climbing, we sure as heck didn't complain about the rain. We were in ALASKA, on a GLACIER, and it was incredible. The rain was just part of the adventure. Likewise, if I'm playing Until Uru, and am exploring Ae'gura... and there's some lag, the marker quests don't work, etc... It's still cool. I'm in Ae'gura. That's amazing. Even if the adventure is flawed, there's no other way I can experience those environments, and that's okay.

So now Myst V is being wrapped up, and if I may risk another analogy, I see it as something of a gourmet meal that's about to be placed before us. The best chefs in the business are outdoing themselves to make it truly delicious, yet a few of the patrons are raising a fuss and badmouthing the chefs because the food's grilled and not baked. Yeesh. I've got personal preferences too, but I try not to let them interfere with my enjoyment of games like Cyan's, or with life in general, for that matter.

BTW, Neo and the rest of you; this really isn't a rant, just an observation. I've enjoyed your postings! The fact that we're so passionate about Cyan's products merely illustrates how good they are, and what a high standard they've set for the rest of the industry.

Peace,

samgdni
07-18-2005, 10:41 AM
actually I loved Uru as much as riven and myst IV ((didnt care for exile)) what I AM bummed about are two things. 1) that this will be the end. In a year thats shown us the end of star wars AND star trek, i didnt need to hear Myst was ending too. 2) the biggest bummer, actually, is that the story arc will end with cg characters instead of filmed. Im sorry but the impact will not be the same with 3d characters.

neo...1
07-18-2005, 03:05 PM
Hey Mowog!

Thanks for the wonderful story and analogy. I definitely feel that I will take what I can get when it comes to MYST V.

As you know well by now...I would see your cruise as travelling through the MYST series 1-4. I think there's probably a separate cruise for URU and or MYST V. That's not to say both cruises can be enjoyable. I love Alaska but I can remember plenty of people as well who just didn't or don't.


As far as the "gourmet meal" analogy goes well...some people like to eat at different restaurants! Or have different tastes right!

I don't feel your response to be a rant but rather a breath of fresh air off the topmost deck of a cruise! I hope my response isn't taken to be a rant either.

Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TO samgdni:

Thanks for the perspective and I agree with both numbers 1 & 2 of your points! Also it's so funny how you vent about Star Wars & Trek and now MYST ending in too short a period of time! I feel the SAME WAY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif It actually isn't funny now that I think of it!

Alahmnat
07-18-2005, 03:14 PM
You could watch Stargate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

neo...1
07-18-2005, 03:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

C'mon! Star Wars aint no Stargate! But it may just have to do for a while! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Mowog
07-18-2005, 06:32 PM
Just a little personal note... I'd never played a realtime 3D game prior to Uru. I'd watched friends play Counter Strike, and found the technology pretty impressive. But the extent of my gaming experience was entirely with pre-rendered stuff, mainly the Myst series and other goodies like Journeyman Project 3, Syberia, etc.

As you can see from my forum data, I joined up in May of '03, well before Uru was released -- so I was one of those who were burning up the Uru forums early on, speculating what the game was going to be like. Just like this BB, really. And when it finally did release, and when I first installed Uru and clicked "Play..." I was just floored. The ability to move about wherever I wanted, an avatar that looked like me, and that great intro music when I first landed in the desert were just too cool.

So, I guess this is just to say that Uru introduced me to realtime 3D gaming, and that first impression has lasted to this day. Say what you want about Uru, but it struck a responsive chord with me, and I love it. I'm still active on the Uru forums, and still enjoy playing "Until Uru" off and on. It's a bit early to promise this, but I expect that I'll set my Myst V prefs to free movement.

Again, to each his own... but having been a huge Cyan fan since The Manhole first appeared in 1987, a big part of the fun has been watching Cyan's capabilities grow with each title. As such, one of the reasons I appreciated their transition to realtime is that I saw it as part of a bigger picture; they dream big, and a part of that dream from Day 1 has been to build worlds in realtime 3D that permitted free exploration. (I'm not making that up, by the way. It appeared in some of their press material years ago.)

Anyway, enough of that. As mentioned before, I like 2D AND 3D, as long as Cyan is behind it!

neo...1
07-18-2005, 08:08 PM
TO Corona...thanks for the laugh! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You're absolutely right!

Hey Mowog!

Thanks again for the personal sharing. I certainly respect and appreciate your experience of URU as well as understand it. I have to say I really do and did enjoy the music in URU. Music is also undoubtedly an essential element to immersion. I do think Jack Wall's work is the best. Sentimentally though...I have to say RIVEN's music...although at times repetitious and confined to a sound module...was highly creative for utilizing only one source. Of course having my most profound MYST experience through RIVEN so long ago....the music haunts me to this day.

URU's soundtrack while not entirely excellent in my view...is still great. My favorite tracks are:

Tracks 2 & 3 (just really fun to listen to...I like 2 a little more than 3 though)
Track 5 (figuring out/deciphering the meaning behind puzzles as the beautiful woman's voice "chanted" away in the background was a unique experience I had within URU that was a pleasure)
Track 6 (desert music as you mentioned - very cool...not sure if you noticed but towards the end of the track there is a brief and excellent use of what sounds like a shakuhachi or native american flute - quite peaceful - to me that's the best part of the track as it fuses with the guitar and surrounding instruments so well),
Track 10 (quite ethereal and well suited for the environment),
Track 13 (great rhythmic hypnotism and I enjoyed seeing purple shades with this particular track)
& Track 16 (for its sheer mysticism & again another track that suited its environment well).

URU on the whole is/was certainly something entirely different than ever experienced before not only in MYST per say but in the 3-D realm. To this... credit is certainly due. I am ALL FOR big dreams and tremendous visions...and of course even more for fulfilling them.
I do like 2-D and 3-D also and as stated before I also feel that some games are better suited for 2-D and some better for 3-D.

Thanks again Mowog http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Takua-Kaita-600
07-20-2005, 03:07 PM
It seems like you're cooling off, neo, so let me go out on a limb and give my 2 cents. (I've always wanted to say that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif)

It isn't exactly "Uru Style." It's containing ages are based on Leftovers from Uru, sure, and it's in 3d and all, but hey, it's A LOT different. I mean, it sounds like they've put A LOT more work into it than they did in Uru. I mean, sure, the people aren't full-motion, but have you noticed that they're very well done? I mean, it may just go beyond wondering if they're real or not. I mean, in Uru, the pitiful Yeesha really brought attention to the fact that she was not real. I mean, what with choppy movement, the lifelessness in her face and, well, bad-ness of the way her mouth moved...it was hard NOT to notice she was cgi. But notice that in Myst 5, if you've seen the videos, the characters are clean and synced perfectly. I even hear they're using full motion for the character's faces. Would I prefer full-motion? Yes. But they can't really do it. Full motion on top of 3D just looks....ew.

And if you notice, it sorta captures the effects of Revelation into a 3d environment. Have you seen the place that was in the trailer? Wow. everything looks fresh and...well, real. It doesn't look CG.

MY Issue is that, well, there ARE some Uru-ish things Cyan is going to put in there that I hate!

For example, have you seen the screenshot of the book in the Nexus pedestal? The linking book does NOT look like a book! It looks like a poor 3D escuse for a book! And what's more, ITS THE EXACT SAME BOOK THEY HAD IN URU! I can't believe it, but it seems like they're too lazy to make a better-looking one! What's more, if they're going to take it right from Uru, than the linking panels will not move, either. THEY HAVE TO MOVE! IT'S STILL A MYST GAME HERE! You kinda got used to this in Uru but I will not have it in EOA! Lazy, lazy lazy?
Another thing they did in Uru and presumably going to copy for EOA, too. They're using the ORIGINAL linking sound! I mean, come ON! It's been a tradition to create a new one with every MYST game! Why break it in the Grand finale?

So yes, There are some aspects of the game that will or will not be "Uru Style." But mostly, it will be something new, something wonderful, and something long remembered. At least, that's how it sounds.

Alahmnat
07-20-2005, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Takua-Kaita-600:
And I'm guessing they're not even going to make the panels move, are they? Lazy, lazy lazy?
I'm not sure how you gleaned this from a screenshot... It is, technically, possible to create moving linking widows in realtime, it just depends on what all Cyan wants to do with the Ages (and has nothing at all to do with Cyan being lazy). In realMYST, the linking panels were simply videos applied to the panel as a texture. If Cyan wants to react to the negative reaction Uru's stationary Linking Panels created, they could g back to doing that. However, if you wanted to have an actual realtime view of the Age you were about to link into, you'd need to load that Age's geometry into memory, increasing the amount of RAM required as well as the loading times for each Age. If the Ages aren't going to be changing much, they could use the videos as they did in realMYST. However, if they intend for Ages to change drastically from the start of the game to the end, a moving panel would cease to look correct by the end of the game, so they may again opt for stationary panels that display the link-in point, which likely won't change much.


And they're using the ORIGINAL linking sound! I mean, come ON! It's been a tradition to create a new one with every game, but youre gonna give us the OLD ****?
I happen to prefer the original over any of the other re-created ones (and personally I rather dislike Revelation's tuba-sounding take on it). But that's just me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neo...1
07-20-2005, 05:32 PM
Hey Taku!

Out on a limb ey??? I can think of riskier things...

I agree that it isn't exactly URU style. Key word here would be "exactly." I kinda' had a misunderstanding with JEBWrench a page ago in regards to MYST V being EXACTLY URU style....so if you're up to it take a gander over on page 6. Basically... the major point was placing the MYST games on one or the other side of the spectrum...3-D real-time vs. 2-D pre-rendered.

That said...just from "playing" the in-game footage...it does remind me a lot of URU. I do hope and expect it to be better than URU. I'll be willing to bet my house that MYST V will be better actually. Now there's a risk for ya!

I'm all for refinement! When it comes to 3-D animated characters...well again from that perspective...from the little able to be seen thus far.... they are more well refined than experienced in URU. I would not agree that "they" may just go beyond "real" from my view though...

In regards to:

"And if you notice, it sorta captures the effects of Revelation into a 3d environment. Have you seen the place that was in the trailer? Wow. everything looks fresh and...well, real. It doesn't look CG."

The key word for me here would be "sorta." Not sure I would agree that it doesn't look CG.

As far as your "URU-ish" concerns go well...I certainly agree... I even mentioned the very same thing you did in regards to the "linking-sound" (buried amongst thousands of words that is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) -

I couldn't agree with your very last statement more.

PEACE!

Takua-Kaita-600
07-21-2005, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Alahmnat:
I'm not sure how you gleaned this from a screenshot... It is, technically, possible to create moving linking widows in realtime, it just depends on what all Cyan wants to do with the Ages (and has nothing at all to do with Cyan being lazy). In realMYST, the linking panels were simply videos applied to the panel as a texture. If Cyan wants to react to the negative reaction Uru's stationary Linking Panels created, they could g back to doing that. However, if you wanted to have an actual realtime view of the Age you were about to link into, you'd need to load that Age's geometry into memory, increasing the amount of RAM required as well as the loading times for each Age. If the Ages aren't going to be changing much, they could use the videos as they did in realMYST. However, if they intend for Ages to change drastically from the start of the game to the end, a moving panel would cease to look correct by the end of the game, so they may again opt for stationary panels that display the link-in point, which likely won't change much.
I didn't mean it that way, and I see what you're saying. I'm just saying that...well, I can bet a lot that they're going to use stationary images. Plus, what I meant was that by looking at the screenshot, I noticed the book looked FAKE. Like a poor 3D excuse for a book! That bothers me.

And personally, I did like the Revelation link-in effect...I don't know about tuba, and I wouldn't call it normal. (personally, my least favorite sound was the one from Riven. Clever, but too different.) Im just saying they shoulda done something more original, ya dig?

Alahmnat
07-22-2005, 03:44 AM
Books are hard to do in CG because paper is so darn thin... it's even harder in realtime because you can't stack 600 planes together to make a bound volume... you just have to use a rectangular prism.

Takua-Kaita-600
07-22-2005, 04:59 PM
Not necesarily. You don't need to stack 600 planes together just to make a more realistic looking book. Simply use better-looking graphics for the book then the ones they're currently using.

neo...1
07-24-2005, 11:17 PM
SO anyway...I don't suppose either of you think that the success and failures of MYST V is totally hinged on the way the linking books look? Yes? No? Maybe so?

Oh and perhaps 2 brief comments on the lowering from HIGHEST RATING to MID LEVEL RATING of this forum as of... I guess last I checked it was July 20th or 21st.... after months upon months of being at its highest...

Don't want to let anybody down just in case they were looking to know my feelings on the matter:

1) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

2) 3554 viewings as of 7/25/05 morning time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Off I go to a nice, peaceful and undisturbed rest! That is... opposed to not being able to sleep because the rating went down... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

neo...1
07-25-2005, 11:37 AM
Oh and thanks...for bringing that rating down even further after my comments 7/25/05 afternoon

DudeMiester
07-25-2005, 11:22 PM
First, you can do a book with each page physically modelled, "The Room" demo from the last GDC did just that. Second, you can have real time rendered portals, Prey does just that. I'm not saying it's easy, but there is physical proof that they can be done in a full fledged game environment. Although unless they add a motion blur effect, the portals won't have the same dramatic effect imho.

bowendesign
07-26-2005, 02:26 AM
Despite my dislike of the design of the Prey avatars, that video blew me away with the sheer nerve of the visual ideas. If any game can show what can be done with 3D, it's that one. That small section with the plane, before a portal opens up behind the character was stunning.

mr._hacker_dude
07-26-2005, 05:37 PM
While I understand that the trailer does not represent the game I think the game designers made a mistake developing this game. I don't suggest for an instant that they go back to totally 2d graphics like Riven (wait, did I turn left? Or maybe right? Or is this looking behind me?) but this animation looks like Pixar. What happend to the good old days when everything was hand drawn? I could probably forgive that, but why make NPCs computer generated? It's really distracting. And don't give me that **** about live animation not working in a 3d environment. If it doesn't work in a 3d environment, don't program it in a 3d environment. There were also a couple scenes of 3rd person cinematics. It really detracts from the feeling of mystery. It works much better to just see out of a little window the way your person would. I'll still buy it and play it and hopefully beat it, but this is not the way Myst should go out. Atrus needs to be Rand Miller, not some 3d blob.

neo...1
07-26-2005, 10:27 PM
Well bowen...I would have to say that any of the visuals I've seen are no better than what can be seen in EXILE or REVELATION. I think EXILE and REVELATION offer beauty in an abundance that surpass what can be experienced anywhere thus far in the MYST series.

Mr. Hacker Dude:

You have quite a lovely profile image going...it actually makes me laugh everytime I look at it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Well I think I agree entirely with everything you have said here...I expressed some of the very same feelings you have. I would have really liked to see "Rand" in the game and feel he especially should have been... considering this to be the final MYST installment.

Oh when the blobs...oh when the blobs...oh when the blobs go march-ing in... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm wondering though...if we'll even see Atrus' character in 3-D?

Naquiel
07-26-2005, 11:53 PM
Well im back again, to hopefully give another point of view to the subject.

Lots of games to some feel more real one way but not in another, and as Neo has pointed out many times, is that sometimes holding with traditional game making should of stayed the same for the end of the series. But many others have looked at the changes and have seen that having things different with the sacrifice of live actors made the world as a whole more imersive.

But lets look at what Cyan invisioned for the world of Myst. They saw that ppl can go through Myst like a person walking out there front door to solve a mystery. They had a vison to make things real, but at the time, computers where limited, so things where set up the way things where. Later when computers evolved, the tech got good enough for Cyan to take the next step that they wanted. What they wanted, was a full world that ppl could walk through, to see the enviroment in full 3d, to touch things, to see the world up close without being limited from frame to frame from past Myst games.

Uru to some was a let down mostly because the npc's where not real like from past Myst games or that the graphics where not totaly photo realistic, but that was one sacrifice Cyan made for a more explorable world. But again as computers evolve, so do the graphics.

So in Myst 5, we will hopefully see the Myst world as how it was concived to be from the begining, but with a slight difference on how we interact with the npc's. A small price to pay to have a world to fully explore with beauty and mystery, But at the same time we loose out on some of the realistic emotional ties we get from the live acters.

But we really have to ask ourselves is this. When we play the game, do we play it for the npc's we see in the game, or is it mostly for the story we like to live in, or the worlds we like to run through? The characters we interact with in past Myst games had an emotional effect being from live acters, but who is to say we still wont get the same effect from the characters in Myst 5. We will have to see.

Myst 5 will be good as the past Myst games are, The story will be there, the ages to explore will take our breath away, and we will still get try to solve a mystery that will be put upon us.

Here is some wise words that might help:

Sometimes the way forward, is the way back.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice the few for the good of the many.

Alahmnat
07-27-2005, 01:23 AM
Um... there are no 3rd person cameras in End of Ages. The entire game is first-person, just like Myst, Riven, Exile, Revelation, and realMYST. I also have doubts that we'll be seeing much of Atrus, if we even see him at all.

DudeMiester
07-27-2005, 02:11 AM
Well the technology is there to do Riven quality visuals in full 3D at a decent resolution, but you have to start getting into high end hardware to do that. If Cyan was worried about sufficent user base, then maybe they should have made it for PS3, lol!

bowendesign
07-27-2005, 02:43 AM
LOL, why not? Maybe that's what they're doing with Latus.

@Neo - difference is, we can go where we want to in this one and not be limited to node style movement. Interesting you chose those two games as your fave visually of the series, as for me, in the main, they're candy-coated confections whereas Riven is more of the designwork I prefer. This is more akin to that than the other, non-cyan developed games.

As for avatars, we'll have to wait and see.

neo...1
07-27-2005, 10:10 AM
Hey Naquiel nice to "see" you again! Thank you for sharing and I appreciate your perspective.

I would have to say that the majority of people play the MYST series games because of its story/puzzles/intrigue/beauty/experience. HOW millions of people have come to experience MYST... is just as important (if not more) than what CYAN's intentions were/are. I know UBISOFT made MYST IV but I also feel that CYAN approved it...therefore having a hand in it no matter how "small" or "large." I am using REVELATION as an example because it is the latest MYST game to be completed and it was still completed in 2-D. I feel that REVELATION (nevermind RIVEN and EXILE) gives you that "open the door and walk out to solve a mystery feel" wonderfully.... as well as the other games in the series. I am always open to a "better" more immersive and absorbing experience. I truly hope MYST V will do this but again...avatars & 3-D characters really put a damper on things not just for a few...but many. A major reason for this is because of how the majority of the games in the series have been rendered & thus experienced.

I appreciate you sharing those very wise sayings...I am quite familiar with them! I don't think the "few"... are people who would like to see live actors though... & yes I truly do feel that sometimes the way forward is the way back. To me that would be the "traditional" style or a game design like RIVEN's as bowen has mentioned a few times. Certainly a continuation or effort to refine it.

On a different note...I also mentioned before when the day comes that 3-D worlds are experienced like that experienced in the "traditional" style ultimately incorporating live actors or at the very least... implementation of a "Yoda" realistic animation (as can be seen in EPISODES II & III)...will be a day that MANY people's differences will be no more!

Final note to apply the "sacrifice the few for the good of the many" in a different light...having just come from the "TIMED PUZZLE" forum & I don't mean this to be offensive in any way whatsoever to those with physical disabilities... Sacrificing timed puzzles would be considered (to me) a sacrifice for the good of the few...but that doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't still be a good sacrifice right! On the whole... if timed puzzles weren't used I wouldn't mind at all as long as the complexity and challenge remained.

Bowen:

Certainly understand the node style movement you describe. Yes...visually I would say as much as I absolutely LOVE RIVEN...that EXILE and REVELATION take visual presentation/"walk-through" to the next level. Someone briefly mentioned an interesting point about RIVEN and the inability to see to your right and left until clicking. But as a positive... RIVEN still is a more refined "slide-show" presentation so to speak vs. that experienced in MYST and the visuals are also better. I agree whole-heartedly with you in regards to RIVEN's design style. I've said it many times before that I don't think any game comes close to matching its overall complexity & dynamicism! That would include game design. I can appreciate your "candy-coating" analogy...but I also feel that EXILE was a solid gaming experience and REVELATION brought me back even further... coming close to a "Rivenesque" feel. It's been a long-time since RIVEN and I guess besides being highly "nostalgic" I truly appreciate the challenge and overall length in game that REVELATION gave me! Nevermind the "tapping" of the hand and stunning visuals!

RIVEN though...is the game that made me truly "fall in love" with the MYST series...it is sheer genius. Unbelievable to this day from start to finish! A step "back" here...no matter when that step is taken...to then move forward... would certainly be a wise one.

bowendesign
07-27-2005, 04:55 PM
I'm starting to like you, Neo... careful! We could end up agreeing all the time!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Part of the appeal of Riven came from the fantastic, otherworldly artwork of Richard Vander Wende. I'm a massive fan of his - he worked in animation doing backgrounds for Disney, specifically Aladdin. He really was the catalyst for how the Myst series ended up.

Exile was a solid game with some nice touches, but it felt very disparate to me. As a puzzle game, I liked it, but the various disconnected areas didn't keep my interest in the same way as Rivens ever-unfolding mix of puzzle and environment. I still enjoyed it, but it didn't have much meat to its bones, so to speak.

Revelation, initially, really put me back in the Riven spirit. Especially Teledahn (is that right?), the hub age. I could put up with the finicky interface, somewhat scattershot use of sfx (the blur effect came and went from screen to screen), occasionally bad compositing and timed puzzles, as up until the whole "dream" section I was mesmerised. Serenia's music still haunts me even now. It's a real shame that a lot of the acting pulled it down, as I really got lost in the world at times, and I was really disappointed with the ending and lead-up to it, as it descended into some real out-of-place new-age antics.

Understand I'm more willing to forgive the avatars of Myst V, because for me it's Cyan's first real game since Riven. Uru really did very little for me, RealMyst was a retread but very successful, but now Cyan are putting their all into something which, right now, looks really beautiful and brings the world into 3D.

I'll take a step back, here - so feel lucky - it would be really nice if they could successfully implement CRISP FMV characters in this world, but it wouldn't work. However, every indication is these avatars have a lot of spark and excellent voiceovers, which we should be grateful for after Uru's (admittedly because of the design requirements) awful blocks seemingly from 4 years ago.

At least Cyan are making an effort to make these guys believable. I think we're all pretty much sold on the environs though, and I can't wait to... heheh... get lost in them.

neo...1
07-27-2005, 11:32 PM
Same here bowen! Who woulda' thunk it huh?! Awesome that we can agree and if we can also continue to "agree to disagree" at times... everything will be cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

First as you mentioned him...I must pay homage to Richard Vander Wende http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif God bless that man! Besides loving RIVEN...I absolutely love Aladdin. I can remember once Aladdin came out on video...watching it every day for months just to get lost in its art. I still enjoy popping that one in. I have Mr. Wende's web-site bookmarked and absolutely love looking over his work. Although I am not in animation...I am also a fan...and I can appreciate you being such a big fan of his. The man...plain and simple... is a genius.

With regards to EXILE... I'm glad we both feel that it is a solid game. Certainly it did not keep my interest in the way you described RIVEN'S "ever-unfolding mix of puzzle and environment." Personally when it came to puzzles... I found them ALL too easy especially after having been put through the ringer with RIVEN. While I still enjoyed the puzzles because of "where I was" in solving them... I just felt that they were/are wimpy puzzles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif whereas RIVEN's were MONSTERS! Also felt that the "dynamic forces spur change" etc. puzzle was far too weak for an end puzzle and the overall conclusion completely fizzed out. I wanted it to be longer & more involved.

The end puzzle was basically matching simple terms that were not only bold italicized in the journal - so you knew exactly what you needed to choose - but those terms were also put up on symbolic display in the lower room of Narayan. At that point all you had to do was copy them down and duplicate the correct symbols on the "power lighting mechanism." If "they" wanted to make it a little more challenging and "Rivenesque"...maybe those symbols could have been scattered about different ages you'd visit... forcing you to go back if you missed them??

Anyways...I definitely agree that REVELATION's ending was weak...and there were definitely some "new-age antics" going on there to be sure. That comment made me laugh btw http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I do feel EXILE's ending was weaker than REVELATION's though. So back to EXILE for a quick moment...as I mentioned before it may be a sign of a good game if it leaves you wanting more...but this is part of that "meat" you mention that I wanted and it certainly left me hungry on a number of levels.

As far as REVELATION goes...yes...it absolutely put me back in as close to a "RIVEN spirit" as I could get...or I had been in...for a long time. It is in this "spirit" that I continue to grow a love for REVELATION.

I believe you are thinking of "Tomanah"...Teledahn is in URU.

I'm not sure if you are talking about the enable/disable "focus" option in the display options menu... when you mention the blurring? I know this option, when enabled, allowed whatever you were looking directly at to be clear and would also simultaneously/purposely blur your peripheral vision. I turn this option on and off and am still not quite sure which way I like it better.

Anyhoot...I also share your appreciation for Serenia's music. Quite beautiful and "serene" to be sure. The most hauntingly powerful piece of music for me though - in the entire score - has to be in "Sirrus' Lair." With an almost byzantine-like chant going on... as it mixed together with Japanese monk style undertones accented with wonderful ambient "harmonics"... this piece was "ENTIRELY MYSTIC" and the muse of RIVEN was instantly summoned here for me. The menu screen's theme is also VERY VERY VERY powerful as well. Almost every track on EXILE's score and REVELATION's score is absolutely perfect. I suppose we can discuss this in detail at some other point as my response gets lengthier & lengthier!

I understand where you're coming from in regards to CYAN'S first real game since RIVEN...I certainly will be and am grateful for anything better than URU! So away we go...

bowendesign
07-28-2005, 02:51 AM
Yup, as long as it's less of a mess than Uru, then great! It's not as if Uru didn't have its fine points - yeah, you're right, Teledahn was the mushroom Age, wasn't it? But as a game it just didn't work on so many levels... no strong narrative, using the weaker part of the Myst mythos from the books, setting it now and creating a decayed world with nothing happening in it... I'm sure a lot of Mystites love it (I know they do), but it's sad the way it turned out.

I'd have to buy Revelations score, but I'm on a CD feeding frenzy and must calm down! If I find the game again on the cheap (I sold it after finishing it) I'll get it and replay it.

The whole "focus" thing was problematic for me, as it wasn't always implemented despite being enabled, and you'd often go from a gorgeous, complex multi-layered scene to one with two levels of focus, which made the game feel a bit shabby... it didn't stop it feeling Rivenesque in Tomhana though, which was my favourite age other than the initial part of Serenia.

I'm hoping Myst V will put me back in that dreamlike state of fascination with the gameworld. On the basis of the video's, it should... here's hoping, I guess.

neo...1
07-28-2005, 10:08 AM
Hey Bowen...

Very sound criticisms of URU...and yes I do think there were some good points as well. Yes...Teledahn as far as I can remember is the "mushroom" age.

Not sure if you knew this or not bowen but you can actually download "Revelator" from the MYSTERIUM web-site and quite simply follow the few directions to pull off or "hack" ALL the sound files on both DVD's of REVELATION. The files on each DVD are called SOUND. You can actually make an even better CD than what is currently being offered you. There is an additional step that you will need to do. All the files are in ".ogg" format and you'll need to convert from .ogg to mp3 or wave if you want. Some web-sites offer free converters as a trial period and you simply spend a few minutes converting all the .ogg files to your desired format and you won't need to use the "converter" again. The sounds you get are well beyond just finished pieces of music...you can also enhance your CD with sounds and voice-clips if you want. TONS OF GOODIES THERE! Make your own Desktop Theme too!

I definitely love Tomahna in REVELATION and especially loved being able to experience what was behind the locked door in EXILE....very well done!

If a game can put me into a dream-like state...being so "real" that I don't know the difference between dreaming/reality (AS STATED IN THE MATRIX)...what a wonderful game it would be!

bowendesign
07-28-2005, 12:44 PM
Thanks for the Revelator tip! I'd have to buy a new copy of Revelation though. I have a nasty habit of selling games I completed and regretting it later. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

neo...1
07-28-2005, 12:50 PM
No problemo...

Jeese...that is a nasty habit! I guess not as bad as smoking though! When it comes to MYST no matter what I "hack" I always get the original mastered CD anyway. Good way to support MYST as well as Jack Wall...definitely a fan of his. As far as keeping my games go...I have a wonderful little section "carved out" just for MYST games...and there is where they will stay! If anyone gets too close to this collection... alarms start going off... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

mYstAddict255
07-29-2005, 11:04 AM
I don't personally think that Myst V is going to be "Uru style".... I think it will be similar to the previous Myst games, only in real-time 3d. I think that with the "classic mode" interface, EoA can be similar enough to the previous Myst games, while still including real-time 3d. Actually, I think having a real-time 3d world will make people feel as if they are actually in another world, which is the whole point of the Myst series.

neo...1
07-29-2005, 09:45 PM
Hey MYstAddict255...thank you for expressing your viewpoint!

Well...as said numerous times before...to each their own. I'm not entirely sure how you are able to separate MYST V from being "URU STYLE" via 3-D realtime with avatars, bouncing Bahro" and 3-D animated characters... as well as the overall transition/walkthrough experience....but I certainly wish I could do the same! Undoubtedly MYST V will be better than URU in many ways that I look forward to.... which some of those ways have been briefly touched on....but there is no escape for MYST V from some basic constituents that URU also shares.

Said another way...The fundamental differences being discussed over the last 8 pages (give or take a few threads) is 3-D vs. 2-D with plenty of room for expansion. From my perspective...URU Style would be considered 3-D and "personally"...just from the very little seen thus far...there are many similarities to URU that you cannot dismiss from being similar to MYST V (namely the ones listed above).

There is no doubt that some people favor and prefer 3-D and there is also no doubt that some favor and prefer 2-D especially when coming to MYST. There is also no doubt that some people don't mind either way! There is currently a poll being taken in this regard...go cast your vote! My God! Just realized this almost sounds like: Democrat - Republican - Independent! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Obviously a major point of the MYST series is to get lost in its ages (or "another world" as you put it). What I have said quite a few times is to take a look at how many games constitute "the whole" MYST series. Being an "addict" I don't have to tell you that for the most part the series has been rendered in 2-D. That may also be a good point to consider when discussing the experience of "getting lost" in MYST "worlds" or ages for millions of people. When you mention:

"a real-time 3d world will make people feel as if they are actually in another world"

I'm sure it will for some...just keep in mind that it won't for all... for many reasons already discussed in these threads and others...


So all I really have to say to those who do not have any "issues" with 3-D whatsoever...EAT IT UP and ENJOY! Have a banquet like Mowog described earlier. I will too...as best I can...just pass me the SALT!

mr._hacker_dude
07-30-2005, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Alahmnat:
Um... there are no 3rd person cameras in End of Ages. The entire game is first-person, just like Myst, Riven, Exile, Revelation, and realMYST. I also have doubts that we'll be seeing much of Atrus, if we even see him at all.

If you watch the in game footage, you enter an elevator and pull the switch. The camera then cuts out and you see the elevator descending from the outside.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/Phoenix_Hacker/elevator.jpg

Alahmnat
07-30-2005, 04:03 AM
You're also looking at a beta release of the game. Gameplay elements, textures, functionality, cameras, and node locations are subject to change.

Takua-Kaita-600
07-30-2005, 04:30 PM
Hear, Hear. It's not ever yet..

Coronagold
07-30-2005, 07:16 PM
The stuff that looks refined is prolly pretty much finished. Areas that look a bit muddled or like Spyro the Dragon are most likely very early pics or footage. (I hope.)

craiglerock
07-31-2005, 10:58 AM
I have to say that I'm completely excited about myst V. I understand the misgivings, and I was a little dissapointed with URU for similar reasons, but I think Myst V will be something that comes as close to something like Myst IV as real time has gotten.

When I started reading this thread I think I agreed with Neo..1 more often than not, but after seeing more previews I'm becoming convinced that I will get more of that feeling that I enjoyed from Riven. (Which I guess shows, that people can change their minds)


My criticism with Uru isn't the real time per se, but that there were no rewards of the quality that I experienced in Riven. The appearance of actual actors sucking me into story were vital. The intro to Riven is amazing, I was instantly hooked. Compare that to Uru which is well.. pretty pedestrian. You're just kind of wandering around because you don't have anything else to do. Anyway, there were no rewards of the Riven quality. Many real time games still have pre-rendered scenes at key points, and yeah they don't reinforce the immersion, they pull you out in a sense, but the beauty and quality is worth the trade off. They give you the tangible sense that you are participating in an art form rather than just a puzzle game. They chose not to do that in Uru, and I think that was a bad decision.

Now, back to Myst V.

I think they've got something with their method of compositing the real actors. I haven't seen that before and when it works, it really works. I haven't seen anything like that in other games so it seems to me that Myst V is following in the tradition of Myst innovation to provide the best immersion to it's fans. The Yeesha animation was dissapointing but the other character was like nothing else I've seen in a game, and it definitely sucked me in. Hopefully Yeesha will get some more work before it's done.

neo...1
07-31-2005, 09:34 PM
Hey Craig thanks for sharing your perspective!

I love the fact that you expressed that people can change their minds! This could go either way and I think this fact may also be part of the excitement. I'm glad you're excited about MYST V and hope you enjoy the banquet.

When you said :

"...I think Myst V will be something that comes as close to something like Myst IV as real time has gotten"

I think you are right in this respect. The better 3-D gets...there is no doubt in my mind that it will begin to resemble that which can be attained now.... as seen in MYST IV (to use your example).

I would love to think that there would be a "Rivenesque" experience to MYST V but I'm definitely not going to go there...that is setting myself up for a MAJOR let down. I already had that experience once with URU and I'm not up for it again...I was so happy that REVELATION brought back some of that "Rivenesque" feel for me.

When you mentioned:

"...The appearance of actual actors sucking me into story were vital."

I couldn't agree with you more here and unfortunately...that is also what has been stated as a basic difference between what "realistically" 3-D currently will allow you to experience and what 2-D can.

I feel the exact same way when you shared the comment about the intro of RIVEN:

"The intro to Riven is amazing, I was instantly hooked"

Absolutely... no doubt...110% agreement! URU quite simply pales in comparison not only here but practically EVERYWHERE to RIVEN...and yes I agree it was a poor decision. I also mentioned before that I treasure every transition like a beautiful painting that I've been allowed to walkthrough! I mention this comment here in reference to:

"They give you the tangible sense that you are participating in an art form rather than just a puzzle game."

Very well said...

I'm glad you're able to see past the animated characters and "bouncing bahro" (as I like to call them)...for me unfortunately this aspect of the game is just too much of a hang-up. As you expressed how vital actual actors were in "sucking you in"... that goes for me in all the MYST games. Anyhow...I don't have to tell you to enjoy it, love it and eat it up craig! But I did anyway.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

craiglerock
08-01-2005, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by neo...1:
When you mentioned:

"...The appearance of actual actors sucking me into story were vital."

I couldn't agree with you more here and unfortunately...that is also what has been stated as a basic difference between what "realistically" 3-D currently will allow you to experience and what 2-D can.
My point here really is that there doesn't have to be a hard an fast line. We can have 3d gameplay interspersed with 2d scenes like many 3d games have done.

The more I think about it, I think there were a lot of weaknesses to Uru that drug it down that had nothing to with 3d vs 2d. I personally thought the scenery was rendered well enough. But the soundtrack creeped me out. There's no driving motivation for your character. I could go on.

Realism isn't necessary for immersion and satifaction for me. I loved Princess Mononoke even though american actors were dubbing over characters animated for japanese and the animation was never confused for reality. But the animation of the characters and the scenery were infused with artistry and emotion and an essentially great story came to life.

Contrast that with the Yeesha avatar in Uru who carried all of the emotion of a slam dunk in an ea sports game. I don't need a "real" looking person but the emotion has to be pulled off somehow. I sensed the emotion in some of the previews that I saw for Myst V and that gives me hope.

I suspect, that like me, some of what you actually were dissapointed in was a lack of artistic care and flaws in some of the decisions, not just 2d vs 3d. If the emotion, the humanity gets expressed, the story drives/responds to your actions, then I think ultimately even if one prefers the 2d gameplay one can forgive the style and enjoy the story.

Alahmnat
08-01-2005, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by craiglerock:
The more I think about it, I think there were a lot of weaknesses to Uru that drug it down that had nothing to with 3d vs 2d. I personally thought the scenery was rendered well enough. But the soundtrack creeped me out. There's no driving motivation for your character. I could go on.
As I've said before, i think the flaws so evident in uru are because it was designed as a multiplayer game, changed to have a single-player lead-up at the last minute, and ultimately was forced into a format it wasn't intended for (exclusively single-player) with a story that hadn't even gotten started. Fortunately, End of Ages doesn't really suffer from that problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

bowendesign
08-01-2005, 03:50 AM
That may be, but it still had some technical flaws and the intial concept on release was probably too vague - was it single player? Was it multiplayer? Was in massively multiplayer? Why so many hubs instead of one, clean city over several servers?

It was released far too early, to be honest, and it felt experimental more than a complete game. I remember butting heads on the Uru forums about the controls and character weighting, which are STILL terrible even with a joypad configured to it.

Don't get me wrong - I love what they attempted to do with Uru. It still is a great experience in parts. But it didn't fail because it was reduced to a singleplayer experience - on release, the multiplayer version, even if it was a beta (another erroneous mistake), was laggy and felt pointless to many, many people outside the Myst community. True, it might've taken off - I don't doubt that - but the initial impact of the game was more a confusing morass of details for the average Myst fan, taken in main from the books.

Introducing weighty fantasy-concepts was a bit of a mistake for a game intended for an MMO but attempting to link it to reality made things even more bizarre. It's a very, very difficult thing to pull off, even in fiction books let alone games (only very talented writers such as Haruki Murakami can really do this). This overcomplification put a lot of people off... I guess I'm saying, let's appreciate Uru for what it is and what it tried to do, but lets not gloss over the issues by putting it down to a single source.

Alahmnat
08-01-2005, 04:29 AM
Well, speaking from the experience of one who was in the beta test for 10 months prior to release, I think the game really did lose a lot of cohesion when it was decided right before E3 to have the single-player introduction... I do think most of the problems, both in terms of the story and the technical issues with multiplayer, stemmed from the altered development cycle just months before the game was scheduled for release. In that regard, I agree, it did come out too soon... things were changed late in the game that, IMHO, altered it for the worse, and there wasn't enough time to devote to properly integrating those new things into the game. The whole journey cloth concept was completely different in the beta, taking a much more backseat role, and I think the overlapping of Yeesha's preaching on top of what the DRC were regularly failing to accomplish in terms of story really didn't help anything at all. The massive sharding early on also didn't help, but because the City was so impossible to explore due to the technical issues that hadn't yet been ironed out, it was an unfortunate necessity. Of course, I also think there were a lot of people put off by the lack of a conclusion to the single-player game, when it was really just the exposition of a bigger story... the people who got it (not all of whom were devout Myst fanatics, I should add) really got into it and went along for the ride, making their own fun when the game didn't immediately provide it, while those expecting a complete game with a climax and a conclusion were just left confused and annoyed. I really don't think the single-player bit helped at all, personally... it just complicated things even further.

There was a lot wrong with Uru when it came out, I'm not arguing that... I just think, looking back at it from a somewhat more inside perspective, that it really unravelled right after E3, because single-player bugfixing and somewhat arbitrary puzzle creation took precedent over creating new areas to explore and refining the multiplayer code... if they had stayed the course things may have evolved differently... or they might not have, I dunno. Though I don't like playing "what if"... it gives me headaches http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

My point, ultimately, is that I don't think it's fair to compare End of Ages to Uru because it's really like comparing strawberries and grapefruit... EoA is a return to form in a lot of ways, being built from the ground up as a Myst game, whereas Uru was built from the ground up trying to be something different (and failed), which I don't think was a terribly good idea either, in hindsight.

bowendesign
08-01-2005, 05:39 AM
I'll be honest here.... I didn't have a great experience with the beta. I was in it from the end of June and found a part of the community was very closed-off and consisted of some real fanatics, which made critical posts about the way it was playing very difficult to get noticed without a lot of arguing. Even when it came to the controls. I've been in many other betas, but never experienced the same vehemence or adoration of a game creator before. Says a lot about what Cyan has created, for sure, but it wasn't helpful that some very noisy individuals seemed to praise their every move.

I also found, in the main, that a lot of the more rabid fans were also being listened to and promoted within the Uru community. One particular individual seemed keen to make my participation null and when they became a moderator I just gave in. Still played the beta, though, and enjoyed what I could, instead making bug reports within the game rather than posting on the forums.

I do have some fond memories of it, particularly mixing with some great groups in the city (I'm not saying the community was all bad!), but the game itself mainly impressed me from a visual standpoint and nothing more. It was never very clear what the intent of having the game as an MMO meant, which was a big PR mistake too - the content wasn't ready, the public didn't know what was going on or what the game required from you and it was all very confusing.

It just became peoples mission to "break the game" as all it consisted of was barriers and indistinct arenas with nothing much in them. Again, part of the problem of it being released far too early.

I never, ever felt that the games narrative, whether the singleplayer was introduced late in development or not, suited what they were trying to create, nor that the Myst lone style of play was suited to an MMO. Cyan bit off more than it could chew, and I completely respect their intent. That said, I don't really think they could've made it any other way. The problem with games that require group participation is they require groups - perhaps it would've been better developing a multiplayer title within a narrative, only with logic puzzles that changed each time, or concentrated solely on exploration within a preset gameworld.

I don't know... I'll always be fond of Uru, but probably for all the wrong reasons.

At least with Myst V looks like they're committed to creating what they do best. It's what I've been waiting for since Riven.

ChaoticCoyote
08-01-2005, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by bowendesign:
I'll be honest here.... I didn't have a great experience with the beta...

Your experiences and mine were very similar. The cult-like atmosphere prevented Cyan from hearing legitimate suggestions from those of us who saw a problems. I'm not saying that the game would have been a success if Cyan has listened to my every word -- I *am* saying that some of us saw some of the very problems that lead to the failure of Uru as an online game. People who sucked up were promoted to moderator positions, and it quickly became clear that contrary opinions were not welcome.

I really like *all* of the Myst games, including Uru. I still play Uru, from time to time, though I've avoid the unofficial online version in spite of my enjoyment of the old "beta" community. Some of my fondest gaming memories are of weird "parties" held in the city -- and in a way, that sums up what went wrong with Uru, since the things I found most enjoyable had nothing to do with a single-player plot or puzzles.

Uru suffered in many ways -- jumping puzzles that violated the "feel" of a puzzle game, the lack of a cohesive and conclusive story, impossible lag on the servers. It could have been an astounding success, had it been given another six months and more focus.

In the end, Uru was less game and more "experience". I am assuming that Myst V will not have the problems that plagued Uru.

..Scott

Coronagold
08-01-2005, 07:37 AM
I tend to agree that in Uru beta there was an element of roleplaying that I loathed. I didn't expect Star Wars or Star Trek-type cosplay within a Myst game...creating closed communities & pretending to be DRC syncophants. The division between Yeesha & the DRC & Phil & Sharper just sent the 'roleplaying' community into an all out ego war.

A lot of us non-roleplayers just hung out & played heek, kicked Eddie, did marker missions & yakked in the Hood. After a while it became a bit boring. Nothing new was being added after the Great Zero.

Lag never got any better. It even affected the Ages outside the City, causing never ending bugs.

bowendesign
08-01-2005, 08:11 AM
Phew! I'm glad it's not just me. As a Myst junkie "coming out" against what I'd experienced in Uru was risky at the possiblity of alienating myself on this very board! I agree with everything you guys say.

For me, what they did with Uru ruined the concept "You Are You". I keep reading about The Stranger as a character (I always thought the idea was the game placed you in the picture, not a seperate entity) and all this DRC just overcomplicates a beautiful series of games centred around a very simple, unique concept and basci but effective family drama. That's why I'm hoping all the Uru stuff is left behind.

Eddie kicking was fun, wasn't it? Shame he often disappeared into the scenery. I also enjoyed stair races and playing football with the DRC cones. Standing about waving to eachother and trying to break into the library was fun too.

neo...1
08-01-2005, 09:47 AM
Wow! How deep the rabbit hole does go...
Some really great insight into URU going on here! I wish I could participate a little more in your direct discussion but it's clealry for you guys...I'm just going to learn from all your direct experiences & I definitely appreciate everything shared here.

So I'll just jump back to craig's response...

Craig you mentioned:

"I suspect, that like me, some of what you actually were dissapointed in was a lack of artistic care and flaws in some of the decisions, not just 2d vs 3d. If the emotion, the humanity gets expressed, the story drives/responds to your actions, then I think ultimately even if one prefers the 2d gameplay one can forgive the style and enjoy the story."

You suspect correctly. But sincerely...when it comes to MYST... I truly feel that 2-D vs. 3-D is currently a deciding factor in and of itself. With other games I don't hold this impact to be as strong an issue for many reasons I've mentioned already.

I enjoyed your Princess Mononoke comparison and you make a very clear point here....which will allow me perhaps to clarify my own view. I am also a Princess Mononoke fan...or maybe I should say... a Hayao Miyazaki fan.

When you said:

"Realism isn't necessary for immersion and satifaction for me. I loved Princess Mononoke even though american actors were dubbing over characters animated for japanese and the animation was never confused for reality. But the animation of the characters and the scenery were infused with artistry and emotion and an essentially great story came to life."

If you feel so...then cool...no worries! I respect your view and experience. Just as long as it "works" then great. I'd say everything you mentioned are undoubtedly essential elements of bringing a story to life. I would also say though from my experience of the film...that the art itself was steeped in "realism" and the way the movie/story flowed (even if it was "childish" on a number of levels)...allowed for the immersion. I would define the "realism" experienced in Princess Mononoke (for me) through the incredible use of NATURE in this film.... as then fantasy, characters, music and story take its "vital" place within... to also provide the immersion or "bringing the story to life." Said another way... for me...the natural art was "realistic" - (also the attention to detailed "realism" - details like a splash and reflection in the water let's say) and so became the "artistic fantasy" within it.... if that makes any sense!

Anyhow...the different dubbed voices didn't effect me either...nor has it for other Japanese Anime...because after all IT IS ANIME. But as a side note (or opinion) when it comes to a film like "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" let's say...I prefer watching it in Mandarin (it's original language) with english sub-titles. This is how I first saw Crouching Tiger. So then... when I attempted to watch it again on DVD with the English dubbing...FORGET IT! The dubbing instantly began to ruin what an incredibly immersive film it is. This is how my mind works I guess! But we need to ALWAYS keep the "genre" in mind when utilizing examples for comparison.

I COMPLETELY laughed out loud...REALLY loud upon hearing:

"Contrast that with the Yeesha avatar in Uru who carried all of the emotion of a slam dunk in an ea sports game." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks for the laugh...

You bring up a truly powerful element to gaming and all types of film when you mention emotion. It's really worth discussing "emotion" in full...but I need to get going for the time being. Perhaps later...

Thanks for the response craig!

Someone just sent me a link to an article on EA...the only reason I'm placing the link here is because you mentioned EA and towards the bottom of the article (3rd paragraph to the end) a very good statement is made/asked in regards to emotion and video games:

"Can a videogame make you cry?" he asks. "If we can get there, we'll broaden the market dramatically."

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.08/ea.html

Mowog
08-01-2005, 10:42 PM
"Can a videogame make you cry?" he asks. "If we can get there, we'll broaden the market dramatically." Well, the cancellation of Uru Live genuinely did bring many fans to tears.

The pros/cons of Uru have been so exhaustively discussed that I won't add to the clamor. What I will say is that someday I hope we can get a glimpse from Cyan of what Uru would have been like had Live actually taken off. Remember, the Riven that we all love was created by these same minds, and I'm sure that the overall scheme for Uru was nothing short of staggering. Judging Uru by what we eventually saw is a mistake. I'll never get to sit down over coffee with Rand Miller and have a one-on-one, off-the-record chat about what they originally envisioned for Uru. But at least it would be nice if, now that Uru Live is officially dead, someone at Cyan would produce a tell-all book or video making plain their entire master vision for Uru. I got the idea that Uru was compromised and eventually canned mainly due to schedule and cost overruns. I'd just like to know what it would have been like if everything had worked. Having a good idea of the overall vision, and understanding why it didn't happen, would probably silence much of the criticism.

vesselle
08-02-2005, 01:36 AM
for my dissenting opinion, i love 3D, but as long as the storyline is deep and well-exectuted, i could care less how they present it to me.

V***V

cs000
08-02-2005, 03:05 AM
I loved every minute of it-lag and all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifIf there had been no lag, it would have been over in 10 minutes anyway. Lets hope that it will all come back someday-real live MMOG with audio and CAM. I'd even stop some of my nastier habits to pay for it.

neo...1
08-02-2005, 09:53 AM
Hey Mowog!

I think a sit down with Rand would definitely be cool where and whenever! Personally...I'm not sure how much I would discuss URU but to each their own...

I certainly wouldn't mind a tell-all video...but you know something...just from the feedback coming through some of the latest threads in this forum (in regards to URU)...I'm not sure those insights would even make it in the "tell-all" video!

On a somewhat similar note...I purchased the LE of MYST V yesterday for a few reasons... one being that they are offering a:

"22-minute video, made by GameTap,(which) offers a retrospective look at the making of the entire franchise."

Nevermind the intriguing artwork and soundtrack!

For now...that'll have to do....and I definitely look forward to it!

TO Vesselle:

Well I wouldn't call your opinion "dissenting" here! But I guess that could also be an opinion as well! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

neo...1
08-07-2005, 01:22 PM
Well I know there is a lot of "Buzz" going on right now with MYST V just around the corner... but I wanted to follow up on the topic of "emotion(s)" experienced in video games briefly mentioned a few threads ago.

From my experience thus far...when it comes to a type of "simulated" emotional experience...movies tend to have more of an overall impact on me than video games...however a video game's ability to be dramatic and convey its drama/story also can prove to be effective. With this said...I'll try and apply emotion to the MYST series...or at very least try by using a few examples from one of the games. The best way is probably looking at it TWO ways. 1) From the player's experience 2) From actual emotional "elements" taking place within the game...

1st thing to do I think would be to categorize emotions...and then depending on who or if anyone participates... can apply their own experiences and insights when it comes MYST.

The "standard" or typcially categorized emotions are LOVE, JOY, ANGER, SADNESS & FEAR.

After finishing a game... or during game-play for that matter... have you ever said something like "I absolutely LOVE this game!" I know I have several times...particularly with RIVEN.

There is no doubt that I love RIVEN for reasons I could go on and on about. But can we see the emotion of love within the game? I would say yes... The love between Atrus and Catherine namely. Maybe the love or "caring" of Catherine by the "D'ni" or vice versa. Arguably, I also think we can clearly see Atrus still attempting to "love" or "care for" his father towards the end of the game (if you decide to summon him before rescuing Catherine & ensnaring Gehn)...upon which Atrus is rejected with a statement - something to the effect of "...you are no longer my son" and is then shot. I think this is probably one of the "saddest" moments inside RIVEN. This example can also show Gehn's "anger."

Another "sad" moment could maybe be seen if you capture Gehn but do not free Catherine? For me, as a player, the true sadness is now steeped in "nostalgia" for RIVEN and of course at the time having such a wonderful game come to an end. Even now with the entire MYST series coming to an end...I don't think it's a "joyful" experience. No matter how much or little we "enjoy" MYST V.

As far as "fear" goes....well I think because RIVEN had such an eeriness to it... whether it be seeing people get shot, experiencing "other-worldly" creatures/art/worlds & secret passageways...as well as you yourself getting shot...waking up in stranges places...and ALWAYS surrounded by seemingly "repressed" & most definitely haunting music....I would say the emotion of fear is played upon quite well in this regard.

As far as "joy" within RIVEN goes....on the whole I wouldn't say it has a lot of "cheer" and "joy" found within it. Sure at the end...Atrus, Catherine and the D'ni are saved...but I'm just not sure how much "joy" was actually IN the game? Now outside of the game (from the player's perspective)...there is NO doubt that I have NEVER "enjoyed" playing ANY other game as much...

So...I figured I'd just share some of those experiences and see if anyone else has anything to offer on this subject. It's a good one and seems to bleed into itself in many ways just as emotions truly can do!

Thanks for listening...

Naquiel
08-09-2005, 11:41 AM
I like what was done in both Riven and Myst 3. But since you hit many points in Riven, i will talk about Myst3:Excile.

Not many liked Excile, some felt it moved away from the past games when it came to the puzzles and the meaning of the game. But from what was all there i saw alot of emotion, mystery and drama to make me keep going back many times.

Excile had other features that made it more fun to explore also, as in the 360 degree view and lots of great sceenery. But what moved the game for me was looking at a game threw the eyes of a mad man. A man that had his world torn from him (his family, his home). In his madness he wanted revenge for what Atrus's sons did, and wanted to hurt Atrus for what the 2 sons did, and for Atrus to feel the pain of great loss.

Excile for me was more emotional for me than Riven, and even better than Myst 4.

Great emotion in games is good and tells a good story, but is hard to make sometimes. Lets just hope Cyan found the emotional tie-ins we have grown to love from the past Myst games for Myst 5.

neo...1
08-11-2005, 09:06 AM
Hey Naquiel...

Sorry it has taken me a couple days to respond...I've been away from Internet access.

I enjoyed your "emotional" evalutation of EXILE and I agree with everything you shared.

I also felt EXILE to have strong not only emotional & dramatic elements to it but the "mystery" you mention was definitely there as well. I still "enjoy" or "love" going back to EXILE!

You touched on the perfect "emotional" aspects of Saveedro...there is certainly anger/rage seen in his revenge (also when he's ready to knock your head off with his stone hammer at the end of the game!). There is definitely despair/pain seen in his screaming at the top of his lungs...pleeing with you to not leave him stranded at the end (to name one). It's also interesting to note in a diffferent way that if you don't perfectly trap him and force him to face "EXILE" for the rest of his life (for all he knows") he doesn't hesitate to come running up after you (AT FULL SPEED!) with that hammer either! His madness can be seen here for sure but also through the extremely well developed concept of forcing Atrus/you to re-learn or learn in a new way the fundamental principles of the ages you are dealing with....& that should also be mastered. You mentioned this well when you stated looking at the game through the eyes of a madman.

In many ways this is what RIVEN is all about....seeing the game or the AGE through the eyes of a madman. The entire AGE of RIVEN as well as Gehn's "personal office-space" if you will...is Gehn's! Everywhere you turn...you're basically forced into the mind of Gehn and his desire for being a "God." Also I think it's an intriguing aspect that whatever age he writes... that the age will never survive. His inability to write "correct" ages is the cause...but that inability is certainly rooted in his madness!

ANyhow, I would have to say that Saveedro's story/experience is certainly a tragic one...yet can also be seen at the very least as happier in the end. I enjoyed being given the ability to leave him trapped. This was great because it touched on my own want for revenge. That is...after being clunked on the head by him a couple times...and/or having him back-stab you upon giving him the book of Releeshan...whereby he drops it into an abyss never to be found and takes off...I definitely felt like he deserved being stranded there! Ultimately though...once you come around and fully understand that he is a victim of Atrus' sons and definitely after he screams his brains out...compassion should be the ultimate choice and Saveedro actually shows gratitude.

I'll save MYST IV for another discussion...but for now I'll just say that I agree that I don't think emotionally (as hard as it may have tried) that it impacted me as much as EXILE or RIVEN did from the way the story was experienced. It impacted me emotionally in other ways. But I'll leave that out for now...

neo...1
08-12-2005, 09:11 PM
I know this actually doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand but I had to add an interesting link. Not sure if anyone else read or heard about this article about the 28 year old Korean man who died after playing 50 hours of video games http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif ...there may need to be a more serious disclaimer on games now! EVERYONE BE CAREFUL with MYST V! Stay nourished and get sleep...if that doesn't help... get psychological treatment...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6448213/did/8888579/

ARatcliffe99
08-13-2005, 02:00 AM
I've loved all the Myst series of games, and pre-ordered them when I could. And yes I have favourite moments in all of them (I don't have a single favourite game in the series though). I was in the Beta of Uru, so perhaps I got a better feel for how it should have been, but it was the life that everyone brought to it that complimented the 3D aspects - it made the single-player version/expansions so much more heart-wrenching in their solitude. That being said, I enjoyed the sense of 'alone amidst beauty and story' that accompanied the other games.. double standards? maybe.

That said, and having read through the whole thread in one sitting, I feel I ought to put my hap'orth in. I feel it's a bit like people going on holiday to certain places in the world. Some go there with pre-conceptions (the beggars, the dirty roads, the... etc), and often, because they arrive with such a mind-set, they can never escape it. Everything they see is coloured by their pre-conceptions. Others (and I include myself in this category), go there with an open mind. Yes, there are there are those aspects, but there is also so much more. I enjoy the experience, I see the good as well as the bad... I see the wood as well as the trees so to speak.

Now, I admit, there is one pre-conception I'll be hard pressed not to have. I'll probably enter Myst V with the pre-conception that there will be beautiful views, fun and challenging puzzles, and a wonderful storyline. Sadly I'll have to live with that, but I can't see myself being disappointed.


Elkestra


P.S. following on from a few of the posts 3-4 pages back (turning this thread into book/film/etc)... I'm considering converting the thread into a computer game. Not sure wether to make it pre-rendered, or realtime-3D....

Any opinions? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


PPS. Any way to change the forum-post nickname from the default forum account name? (I'd rather have it showing my preferred nick (used everywhere else forum-wise) - Elkestra.

rw.
08-13-2005, 10:09 PM
Bravo, Elkestra, well said. I especially like this statement of yours:

"Now, I admit, there is one pre-conception I'll be hard pressed not to have. I'll probably enter Myst V with the pre-conception that there will be beautiful views, fun and challenging puzzles, and a wonderful storyline. Sadly I'll have to live with that, but I can't see myself being disappointed."

Oh, and welcome to the forum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neo...1
08-13-2005, 10:52 PM
Hello Aratcliffe99 or should I say Elkestra?

Thank you for spending some serious time and reading over everything from start to finish. I truly appreciate your hap€orth! & I will spend a good time responding to you.

I believe it was Mowog a few threads back who used a story of his trip to Alaska to illustrate a point that could also be tied in with the perspective you offer. Yes...I think there are certainly those who travel with preconceived notions...and yes I would also say that there are those who don€t. This could go either way as a positive or a negative. Meaning...let's say I think my trip to Alaska is going to be AWESOME...but it turns out I hate the experience...then that would be a positive "pre-conceived notion" turned negative. Let's say I don't want to go to Alaska because of my "preconceived notions" but my wife drags me there and I wind up loving it...then this is obviously a negative turned to a positive. I think there are plenty of people who don't have any "preconceived notions" either way and simply wait for the experience to let it speak for itself (-Believe it or not I do try to practice this last perspective). Similarly, I also think that there are different types of people who enjoy and appreciate different experiences more than others. As Mowog also mentioned dining to illustrate this point... my response was that some people simply enjoy eating at different restaurants. That€s really what this all boils down to. Corona also said it well (which still gives me a chuckle)...when he said this forum should be called "opinions."

On the one hand "we" try for the absolute by stating/expressing what it is that everyone appreciates or enjoys...as you mentioned:

"beautiful views, fun and challenging puzzles, and a wonderful storyline"

These no doubt are critical and I certainly don€t feel that expecting these 3 elements is a negative...the only negative would be if one of them were missing! In this regard what you describe as a pre-conception (that could be negative)...I would describe as a positive expectation or even a standard that should be included in the game. Maybe the same? Maybe not?

Is it possible though...to know what a particular experience will be like before you experience it? Well I would say YES IT IS! Certainly not in all cases. But let's say I know ahead of time that I'll be visiting Tiajuana Mexico...that I'll be staying in a trailer & the only food at my disposal will be beans & rice, with the possibility of encountering black widows, tarantulas, rattlesnakes, lizards...with no internet, no tv or movie theatre, no computer or playstation....basically camped out in the middle of no-man's land. I think it is possible to assume or "preconceive" that the trailer is going to smell from my gas (forgive my crudeness- or I better make sure I pack some GAS-X)...that maybe I should bring a few books...and be careful of my surroundings before I even get there. CVS, the local mall or the Holiday Inn are not anywhere near a possibility. Or let's say...I know I'll be travelling with a woman who lives at the nail salon, hair salon and is into driving around in fancy cars, changing her clean & perfectly ironed clothes at least twice daily and surfing the net for the better part of 4 hours a day...while the experience in Tiajuana might be just what this person needs...it might be a VERY good idea to leave this person behind if I don't want to be doing some SERIOUS babysitting or pampering!

Anyhow...there are always exceptions to the rules...but I also think it is possible to put together sound ""notions" before actually experiencing something.

Now to build upon this...there is also a difference between what an actual experience offers...positive/negative. This is where it starts to get a little hairy because what some people would view or experience as a negative is another person€s positive and vice versa obviously.

I think the main point to consider or what I would argue (& have been arguing) in regards to "pre-conception" is that...it is possible to know ahead of time (FOR ME) if a game is rendered in 2-D with Live-Action sequences (real people) vs. 3-D and animated characters WITHIN THE MYST SERIES...how the game will effect me to a considerable degree. It is from direct experiences that I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt (AGAIN from my perspective/preference/opinion) that I know what the experience will be like...regardless of how good the story, beautiful views & challenging puzzles. In MYST V's case...to stay positive...it will be better than URU. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Call this a preconceived notion if you will...but well based with reality or an educated guess. I don't think it's negative to do this either. I think it is realistic. BELIEVE ME I will be the first to admit if I was wrong in my "notion" and how wrong I was...but I very simply know better. So I will continue to throw it out there because of how sure I can be based on not only the little I've seen but have experienced and what is currently possible! CLEALRY not everyone agrees nor do I "expect" them to!

Thanks for the time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ARatcliffe99
08-14-2005, 04:03 AM
To rw:

Thank you for your appreciation and welcome. I've been around in the Uru and Myst IV forums for a long time, but haven't been particularly active recently (that interfering delusion called 'real-life(tm)' has been getting in the way). Not sure why the system thinks I only newly registered (perhaps since I'm starting from scratch again, I ought to just re-register with the Elkestra login). And yes, reading it again, that statement did come out rather well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif maybe I'll put it in my sig http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To Neo:

Hi. Thank you for your reply. You covered several aspects of pre-conceived notions very well - the Positive->negative and vice versa. However, perhaps because I didn't state it well enough, I was more concerned about the 'Negative begats negative' aspect (as covered in my description of someone not enjoying the holiday because they already expected not to).

To put it into context, in already deciding that the game has 'lost something' because it is realtime-3D rather than pre-rendered, is there not the real risk that - even if the game looks stunning in realtime-3D - the perception will be permanently coloured (discoloured?) by thinking 'but its not pre-rendered'. I admit that in terms of a series like Myst's, it's easier to envision changes that could personally affect judgement/enjoyment, and it seems this is the case here. However it's important, I feel, to try to put these aside. Otherwise the perception could be detrimentally coloured by the pre-conception, which reinforces the pre-conception, and so on - a vicious circle. Of course, this can also work in reverse - positive pre-conception colouring perception. This is why reviewers sometimes have a hard time being objective about a game series/genre they love/hate.

Will I be able to stop myself being influenced by pre-conceptions (positive or negative)? Probably not, but knowing that they are pre-conceptions and keeping an open mind is the first step.


Elkestra

Elkestra
08-14-2005, 04:29 AM
Well, that answers that question. Seems I have two logins for Ubi.com (and the other one hadn't used the forums before, hence the lack of correct nickname, and 'newly registered' status).

I'll stick with this one from now on.


Elkestra

neo...1
08-14-2005, 09:05 AM
Hi Elkestra! I see the change worked out for you...congrats!

You re-stated your points well...and yes I completely understand/understood where you are coming from with pre-conceived notions. In other words...you did just fine the first time. Again...(to also re-state)...my point plain and simple is that I think you can surmise an experience before hand based on particular "ingredients" if you will...I don't think it is a negative to do so either...(it can be yes...but it's not an absolute) I feel that it is simply being realsitic. There are a number of people out there who know where I'm coming from on this and some may agree and plenty do not.

That said...I think enjoying the game is certainly possible...but to repeat... there are those who are of the opinion/preference of an experience that 2-D with specific implementation of real-people/live action offers over 3-D and animated characters. After reading over all the threads you probably know a point I mention a few times is that this is particularly true for me when it comes to the MYST series because of how dominant 2-D and live-action has been in the series....I believe it has shaped the "rendering" experience of MYST....and that is also why there are opinions to be sure on both sides... as well as either or. Not sure if you saw the poll "MYST V CLASSIC GRAPHICS vs. 3-D? I think even if it is based on a small number of people from this site...it still offers important stats (SO go cast your vote if you haven't already!):
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262...33/showpollresults/Y (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262/m/7431058833/showpollresults/Y)

So on the whole as I said before...I'll take what I can get...enjoy it as much as I can....and I also know where it will fall short for me already. Sad but true. In addition to playing MYST V...what I'm really looking forward to is the "making of" video, soundtrack and artwork that's coming along with the LE edition.

Thanks for your time!

Jnathus
08-14-2005, 07:02 PM
I had the preconceived notion that URU wouldn't work because it was taking a genre that is usually done single-player and put it into an online environment. Far from pioneering anything, it seems to have ensured that adventure games won't see an online model, because if the people who gave us the best selling adventure game of all time can't get an online adventure game going online, who can? Unfortunately, I was right, but that never stopped me from enjoying URU.

I love the URU game, despite its MANY flaws. Since I play many a current day game (Half-Life 2, No One Lives Forever 2, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, and Doom 3), I find that URU's graphics hold up reasonably well. I didn't find Yeesha's animations to be too terrible when compared to other games I've played, and therefore I never judged it too harshly. I never compared it to the pre-rendered Myst offerings because it wasn't meant to stand alongside those.

I never liked the change in actress for Catherine. I like the original Catherine from Riven, and I thought the actresses chosen for Myst III and IV were a bit to flowery by comparison, especially when considering how strong and resilient she is portrayed in Riven and in the books, but I never had any control over the change.

So, like you said, I take what I can get in regards to the series, but I don't feel like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel in doing so.

I only hope that Cyan can continue to produce games in what seems to be a dead gaming genre (Which is not to say I don't like adventure games. I just appear to be among the few remaining who do.)

Leehrat21
08-14-2005, 09:19 PM
I don't know if this discussion is long gone, but I too agree that this end should be just like the beginning and like the heart of this series, to hear that there are no live actors, and that it is real-time 3-D upsets me. realMyst and Uru, are break-offs, the finale should be just like the opening and everything in the middle, the fact that there were real actors in Myst, made me love it more, it made me connected to the characters, and that made Myst unique, and it put me in awe. I am heartbroken it is no longer so.

neo...1
08-14-2005, 09:20 PM
Hello Jnathus...I like your profile image!

Thank you for sharing your feedback and experience with a "preconceived" notion! That basically speaks for itself.

I think you illustrate a good point in naming the few games you did in comparison to URU...in that light I would agree that Yeesha's animation may not be too terrible. Unfortunately it is hard for me to not compare URU along-side the other MYST games because ultimately...it stems from the original story. Clearly there is a different experience that URU offers vs. that of the pre-rendered group...and it is because of this that there is so much division yet also unity if that makes any sense! I won't expand further because there are so many other threads in this regard on the other pages. But most recently...just above...Leehrat21 summs up my feelings perfectly on the matter.

Anyhow, I'm really glad you brought up the Catherine acting change! I definitely like/liked the original actress for Catherine in RIVEN best. She was great...and I don't want to offend the new Catherine...but...her voice really irritated me...and she also is no where as good-looking! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Lastly, I would honor and agree that we're certainly not scraping the bottom either and hopefully I'm not coming across like that. When I say...falls short...it primarily has to do with a realistic immersion and "connection" that I've mentioned several times before.

I also share the same hope as you for CYAN and this genre...and my hope also lies in those who seek to create a game (or games) as radical as the original MYST and definitely RIVEN was/is...
Maybe CYAN will open their doors to new people with exciting new ideas...if not... I think we can at the very least anticipate people who share this hope...to bring this hope into the field through their motivation/inspiration & ultimately do something FANTASTIC with it! In my "humble" opinion (if you will)...it is going to have to be something totally new and completely original. Right now...too many games (particularly in this genre) attempt to emulate the MYST series. I also mentioned several threads ago...about a return to a "Rivenesque" style. This doesn't mean be EXACTLY like RIVEN per say...but rather be like RIVEN (in sum) by taking into consideration its inherent originality...its incredible patience (or thoughtfulness) in the development process and use of live-action...its story and amazing artwork.

Thanks for your time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TO Leehrat21:

You came to the right place...that's what this forum is ALL ABOUT! Thanks for sharing! The discussion is not and cannot ever be long gone because there are many of us that share the very same feelings you so perfectly express(ed)...and many who don't! I couldn't agree with you more or express what you said better.

Thank you!

Takua-Kaita-600
08-15-2005, 03:53 PM
Regarding the "New Catherine,"

I have a theory that kind of covers for the change in actress...I'm just assuming she aged pretty quickly after Riven and by a great amount after Exile, and that she dies shortly after Revelation.

Coronagold
08-15-2005, 07:43 PM
Strange that we are asked to ressurrect D'ni when Releeshan had been Atrus's latest work since Exile. He abandoned D'ni. Yeesha didn't.

What happenned to Releeshan that forced Yeesha to concentrate on D'ni again?

I think what Cyan is concentrating on his time around is heavy replay value.

I think that each choice will hold larger repercussions. I'm talking like...deciding to wait or acting right away. I have a feeling there will be a strong AI in this game.

Cyan wants this game to last a long time.

neo...1
08-15-2005, 11:23 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LOL Taku...I really like the theory!
That works for me too...thanks!

Hey Corona! UH....I'm not sure you meant to post here or not...based on the logic of the last threads...but I think I follow what you're saying anyhow. SO what the hey...strong AI would be intriguing to experience as well as deeper choice repercussions!! I'm also ALL FOR a LONG gaming experience. Oh and I just have to say something to you Coronoa on a personal/side note...I just read your comment in the "...kills yeesha" forum...and I can now say beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are the funniest person in this ENTIRE MYST V web-site. In all the threads that I have encountered thus far...there is no one else who has made me laugh as much...

Coronagold
08-16-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by neo...1:
I just read your comment in the "...kills yeesha" forum...and I can now say beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are the funniest person in this ENTIRE MYST V web-site. In all the threads that I have encountered thus far...there is no one else who has made me laugh as much...

Thank you, Neo. Once in a while I do try to sneak them in under the radar, like those tiny drawings on the margins of the pages of Mad magazine.
What makes it even funnier is nobody responded to my post, so it sits there like a log in a bowl of clean water. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

neo...1
08-16-2005, 08:55 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Like I said...beyond the shadow of a doubt! You're unbelievable...I don;t know where you get some of the things you say...I'm still laughing...
So do you want me to respond...I think the fact that no one responded definitely makes it funnier as well...so I guess I'll just leave well enough alone....

Jnathus
08-17-2005, 08:08 PM
I have one thing I'll be bummed about if it happens in Myst V. If I have to keep linking back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back . . . to solve any puzzles, I am going to say unpleasant things out loud. Watching a load screen isn't what I consider fun unless I've gotten some honest to goodness game time / enjoyment out of the time between load screens.

That was one of those unfortunate URU I love it / hate it things. I love the scenery, the story, but I hate the whole 'made for a whole bunch of people but only mildly adapted for your singular self' design which made solving some of the ages (especially in PoTS) rather tedious.

neo...1
08-17-2005, 10:15 PM
Hey Jnathus!

I certainly agree with ALL those sentiments. I like a good puzzle...but linking back & forth while a nice experience in freedom for URU...in this respect just isn't/wasn't my cup of tea. I don't care for the loading screen either. Pre-rendered is very cool when it comes to loading...you just click on a saved game and very quickly... you pick up right where you left off. Don't care for the "jumping challenges" in URU either. Better stop...I'm tempted to start tearing URU apart suddenly...

LOL to: "saying unpleasant things out loud!" I can just picture/hear it! I wish there were more things that I could love about URU so hopefully MYST V will fill in some of the gaps for me. I'm really hoping for a MYST VI "pre-rendered" by CYAN! There's some wishful thinking...

Alahmnat
08-17-2005, 10:24 PM
Just FYI, the loading times in Myst 5 have been greatly reduced according to MarkD, who did a speed comparison on his work computer a little while back. They've changed the way the Ages load, so that 1) it's more optimized in the first place, and 2) it doesn't load *everything* at the get-go... rather, it loads the first couple of areas and then lets you in, loading additional data as you explore. Presumably, and especially in situations such as what you encounter in Gahreesen and Ae'Gura, this means you wouldn't be loading the *entire* Age, since there would be no way to get to parts of it from your present location, thus making the load time ultimately worthless.

And, perhaps more impressively, the load times have been reduced even though the detail, quality, and overall size of the Ages in EoA is larger than that of the Ages in Uru.

neo...1
08-17-2005, 10:28 PM
Well...that certainly sounds good Alahmnat!

Ciris
08-23-2005, 01:10 PM
Alright, I've read through most of this thread, and I don't think this point was ever made. My first adventure games that I played were Space Quest 3, King's Quest 4, and Loom about 15 years ago. When I played those games, I thought they were the best games I had ever played. (and they may have been considering the only other pc games I had played were Oregon Trail and a few educational games that I haven't a clue what they were called) Then a couple of years later a played Space Quest 4 and 5 and King's Quest 5 and 6. I thought those games were even better. I thought the change in graphics and gameplay enhanced the game. Same thing happened with me and the Myst series (except for Exile. The 3d panning was helped, but I just didn't like the feel of the game, and I didn't like some of the graphics, the age with all the plants.) Back to the series. As the games progressed, I thought to myself, ya know this is game is even more fun than I thought. I went into Uru thinking it was going to be an awful game compared to the Myst and Riven, but I enjoyed it more so. I am excluding Path of the Shell, because that was pretty bad. I liked Revelation and if the demo says anything, EoA will be my new favorite.

But when I hear people say that Cyan should keep the Myst series as a classic point and click pre-rendered interface, I find that demand to be quite limiting and possibly insulting to Cyan. Had Sierra had that demand put on them back in the early nineties, we'd be stuck playing all those early Sierra games with the basic Vga graphics and a text based interface.

ZeusmeisterX007
08-23-2005, 03:14 PM
Yeah, I think that the change to 3D should have been made long ago.

ZeusmeisterX007
08-23-2005, 03:15 PM
I think that each choice will hold larger repercussions. I'm talking like...deciding to wait or acting right away. I have a feeling there will be a strong AI in this game.

Cyan wants this game to last a long time.

I don't believe that this game really has AI, as what I saw in the demo was all scripted stuff.

I also don't think it will be any longer than Uru: Ages beyond Myst was.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, that was an accident.

neo...1
08-23-2005, 11:17 PM
Hey Ciris thanks for sharing & I appreciate your perspective on this.

I think I understand your view on the "evolution" of games/rendering & graphics pretty well and it has been touched upon in many different ways. I think your view simply shows again how different people have different views on this. If you haven't visited the poll room on this very issue (when it comes to MYST that is) check it out... although small it still offers something significant:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262...33/showpollresults/Y (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262/m/7431058833/showpollresults/Y)

For me...the argument or fondness of MYST was/is experienced through all the games of the pre-rendered form or 2-D. I believe & know that this form itself has changed & become more well refined over time as well...that is apart from 3-D....on its own. I know I've stated that numerous times & this is not a new topic.

Unlike you...I actually went into playing URU for the first time with high hopes & expectations only to have them dashed bitterly by a MAJOR traditional difference in gaming experience http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I knew this difference in rendering existed but never had really encountered a major upset like this in rendering...which really brought my attention to it when it came to MYST. Now other games I could stomach...but for me this was just MYST GONE BAD! I was sooo happy to have REVELATION (even with its weak points) come back to save the day!

As I also said before...if MYST first came out in 3-D and maintained that continuity...that would at least make sense to me...I'm also pretty confident I wouldn't have become such an avid MYST fan...because obviously...working with what we have...I have to base my entire MYST gaming experience on the entirety of what we have. Now if you're talking half-life or some other alternative game...my view can change quite easily...but when it comes to the MYST series...I just think 3-D should have been left out completely....or now I'll just say been done from the start (thank God it wasn't though!). As also mentioned before...I feel that some games are just better suited for 3-D and some for 2-D and in this case my opinion is & will always be that MYST... because of how it started & where it went... 2-D is what has suited and suits it best.

Sorry for all the repetition because I know I've said this numerous times before...

Also...this isn't about point & click solely so much as it is about being pre-rendered/photo-realistic/live-action (meaning real people playing a part in the game). I would think that after seeing the refinement of the classic style change from the first MYST to MYST IV - in many ways - including navigation... that other positive possibilities are out there. Also as mentioned before...when & if 3-D becomes capable of adequately/realistically incorporating real people or incredibly (YODA-good/Star Wars good) "realistic" animation into a game's environment(s) (which many people might argue that they can do now...but I wouldn't agree)...as well as being on par with photo-realism... this may settle some division.

To me & those who share my view on this rendering preference when it comes to MYST & why...it is pretty cut & dry & is not meant to be insulting to CYAN but if that's how it is taken...then so be it.

Hey ZEUS! Thanks for the input...if MYST V is longer than great! If not then...oh well. My hopes really aren't set too high for this one...so maybe I'll have some pleasant surprises. Haven't played the demo yet but seems like a lot of disappointment out there right now...

ZeusmeisterX007
08-24-2005, 08:34 AM
Speaking of Half Life, Half Life 2's characters are very life like, much more so than what I have seen in End of Ages so far. Uru's Yeesha was animated terribly, as has already been pointed out.

Ciris
08-24-2005, 02:05 PM
I understand your point, neo. I guess for me graphics are secondary, considering I still like playing old dos games. I also enjoy the freedom of movement in 3d. It's not necessary for the overall story of a Myst game, but for me it adds something. Ultimately, I think that no matter how a game is produced, be it a myst game or any other, there will always be people who dislike the end result. That does not include technical problems, because those should really be dealt with before the game is shipped or at least have a patch being planned.

Spin_Waffel
08-24-2005, 11:52 PM
Perhaps my post will go to prove the point of the 3D haters, but I am not a long time Myst player. Mostly I have played first person shooters and I love Uru. I was so afraid that Myst V was going to be a point and click slide show, in order to make the old Myst players happy. I am sorry for the people who prefer static pictures, however I think most other gamers would like to have free-look, I know I do.
Uru is the best looking game I own, to just stand there and look at the beautiful sky and desert is a joy. A 3D world is so much more real than pre-rendered pics, even if they look better.
At least for me anyway.
I'm sure I never would have had much interest in any part of Myst if the Uru demo was a slide show. As for those who are disappointed, I know how you feel. I was bummed when Heretic II came out in 3rd person.
Uru and Myst V more than make up for it.

neo...1
08-25-2005, 12:41 AM
Hey Spin_Waffel thanks for the contribution!

I would say that the first MYST was definitely a slide-show & RIVEN was a better slide show...but to me...EXILE & REVELATION didn't quite strike me as a "slide-show"... I know we come from two different points of view on this so I'll submit to calling them "point & click" & just leave it back to the sentiments: "To each their own."

I certainly wouldn't agree - in the slightest way - that URU looks better and is anywhere near as realistic as any of the other MYST games (OK...maybe...I'll grant you that URU looks better than the first MYST http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)! Perhaps if you said URU looks better or more realistic than many other 3-D games...I could agree with you...no problemo. Nor would I come anywhere close to agreeing that 3-D (when it comes to MYST) is more realistic. It's certainly not as easy to say that this is solely based upon looks either... but on a number of critical ingredients working together with the "looks." Just to clarify the "2-D lovers" range in likes/dislikes for 3-D when it comes to MYST...I'll name the the critical ones again that have been stated numerous times over: a dislike for seeing an avatar, 3-D animated characters & a dislike for the absence of realistic immersion experienced through photo-realism & live action sequences utilizing REAL people.

Another issue also dicussed at length in many of the other threads of this discussion is the argument or question if URU is really considered to be a part of the MYST series at all? While the story is there, cool puzzles, different worlds & characters perhaps (the parts I do enjoy)...it just struck/strikes me & others who share this view like: "What the hell is this?" "This is supposed to be MYST?" And so I try to include it & bounce back & forth but no matter what... URU feels separate to me - as it was supposed to be - & yet I cannot separate it COMPLETELY because it is a part of the series - as it was also meant to be. Sounds tricky but actually makes perfect sense to me! Or said another way from my view URU is like a thorn amongst roses. AND SO a few pages back or something you can check out all kinds of further discussion on this "issue" if you like...

Just to clarify on your final statement...the bummer to be made up (for those who favor "pre-rendered" that is) when it comes to MYST... is not to be seen or received in URU or MYST V to be sure...but NOW in a MYST VI "pre-rendered" which could happen or more likely will never happen....but the end may not be written I HOPE! Therein lies the spark of this forum/TOPIC...current disappointment & different perspectives on this "disappointing to many" yet "satisfying to many" ...BACK & FORTH issue!

Thanks!

LordAkira110
08-25-2005, 12:55 PM
I was so afraid that Myst V was going to be a point and click slide show, in order to make the old Myst players happy. I am sorry for the people who prefer static pictures

I think the reason why people the "old myst players", enjoy the slide shows or the point and clicks, ect. Is simply what came along with that, a game that is purposly slow, quite and paced which has created its own genre. And I agree with that.

Also not to pick on you or anyhting but if uru is the best looking game you have.... you must not be much of a gamer. Also the problem with 3d rendered games is that as they get better all previous games look silly and unrealistic now that you have a comparision. As to the older Myst games they are always going to hold its own with those "static pictures", while I also get that delightfully slow paced game.

PS ......Im not "old"

neo...1
08-25-2005, 10:27 PM
Another view that is "well said" LordAkira http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

ZeusmeisterX007
08-25-2005, 11:17 PM
Quote: "Also not to pick on you or anyhting but if uru is the best looking game you have.... you must not be much of a gamer."

There aren't many 3-D games that look better than Uru. New FPS's do, but if your not a fan of them you might not have somethin better than Uru even if you are a hardcore gamer. I'm a rather hardcore RTS gamer and I don't have much that looks better than Uru.

Spin_Waffel
08-26-2005, 02:29 PM
I didn't mean to P.O. anyone. I wish everyone could get the game they like. It wouldn't bother me if Uru was not part of the Myst universe. I just like bright outdoor alien worlds that are rendered in 3D, with puzzles that aren't too hard. I like a cool story that has to be figured out, that "what's around the corner" exploration. Being able to free look makes me feel like I'm really there. Doom 3 has more realistic rendering but I don't like the dark, claustrophobic environment.
Also, I did not mean to imply anyone was old personally, I am 47, way too old to die young. Feel free to make fun of my decrepidness. I make no claim of being "much of a gamer", most of the games I've played were FPS. Grim Fandango is notable exception, loved the story, puzzles were hard for my dumb ***.
What I don't like is there is no possibility for user made maps with the Myst games, unlike the ID, Half Life and Unreal games. This would give more control to the Myst community, rather than having to try to sway what a corporation does. I would love to be able to put some more books on the shelf in Uru.

mszv
08-26-2005, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I like slow paced games myself, and sometimes have a nostalgic fondness for "point and click" and the slideshow view. And yes, Myst 3 and 3 are slideshows, with that extra panning. It's like those panning views of things you see on websites, though I'm sure they use different software. On well, different people like different things. It's nice that Myst V, while not prerendered (yippee!) will support the more static point and click view, the classic and a variation, along with nagivation.

I like a full 3D, go anywhere kind of game, that isn't too fast. There aren't that many of them.

Ah - modification tools in a Myst series games - wouldn't that be nice!

Mr Zebe D
08-26-2005, 04:44 PM
Not me. I love URU and have really enjoyed playing the Myst V demo in free-roam mouse driven mode. I've had the added pleasure like Mowog of seeing Noloben in glorious 3D with wireless stereo shutter glasses.

neo...1
08-26-2005, 10:07 PM
To Spin Waffel:: Thanks again for the feedback, understand your view well, I don't think you implied anyone was "old" & I hope you don't think you P.O.'d me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

To mszv: Love the slow paced, nostalgic "point & click" as well! As far as my take on EXILE & REVELATION being called a "slide-show"... you mentioned the term "panning"...and it is this "panning" to me that keeps me from pinning a definitve YES to them as being a slide-show. Now MYST & RIVEN OK... no problemo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wish MYST V would have been pre-rendered but am at the very least happy to hear that the point & click has been/being integrated into the game....this certainly doesn't make up for the difference & my disappointment though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gifI will reserve my further negative thoughts towards MYST V for the time being...

To Mr. Zebe D: Bring on the shutter glasses!

uecasm
08-27-2005, 05:40 PM
neo -- considering how negative you seem to be on the whole "realtime graphics" issue, it seems a bit surprising that you're so enthusiastic over in Zeus' Source thread. That's 3D realtime too, you know... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Mind you, I probably shouldn't talk. I've never been especially consistent myself, so why should I expect it in others? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

neo...1
08-27-2005, 10:24 PM
Hey uecasm!

Thanks for the response. This may be a perfect opportunity for me to clarify yet again my view. I'm sure many people have a difficult time figuring out "absolutes" or "consistencies" in my view and I guess it's understandable. When it comes to the MYST series though...I think I have been pretty **** consistent. SO as you said you shouldn't talk...I'll just have to respectfully say "speak for yourself" when it comes to consistency! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif NO offense of course.

To further explain - as to me it seems you are clearly "calling me on this" - (you can spread the word http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif as much as you like btw) that without "beating a dead horse" that my consistency has always been "here" when it comes to discussing the MYST series & my disappointment in 3-D within THIS SERIES & why. I have also stated on NUMEROUS occassions when it comes to other games... I really don't have a problem with 3-D...and that some games I feel are just better suited for 2-D and some for 3-D. If you want to read ALL the details I've offered in this regard...there's plenty of it throughout all the other pages.

Now as for the project in Zeus' source thread... last I checked this is not being completed by a crew of programmers @ CYAN or some other huge company to be included as an OFFICIAL part of the MYST series... right? SOOooo as I stated over in Zeus' thread...this will be a great chance to participate in a game project, learn from it & enjoy it! I have no qualms about the engine he wants to use & it's not my call anyway. I hadn't even thought twice about it until now! I really wouldn't be over there so much if this was an issue (as you noticed). Hope that clears up my enthusiasm, motivations, consistency & "negativity" for you. For the record...believe it or not...I'm really a VERY POSITIVE person actually!

P-E-A-C-E

juliasin
08-28-2005, 01:28 AM
Oh God! I hope it's better than the trailer. And that if Myst has really ended, that Cyan continues to produce single player problem solving games of the same calibre. There just seems to be a plethora of shootem up stuff that relies on hand-eye coordination and little imagination, and a dearth of intelligent games. Cyan has for me been at the forefront of this area of gameplaying and I feel a real despair at the thought of no promise of something of equal style for the future.

Diegoa
08-28-2005, 02:56 AM
I had a look at the Myst 5 demo and I must say I am hugely disappointed. It is a copy and paste of URU and that€s all.

The most creatures in the background are static, you cannot jump around in the freaking game, the puzzles are lame and the voices of the people are stupid. The tablet thing half works and is a waste of time, what is up with that.

The characters look like they are floating 1 cm above the ground. There are graphic problems here and there. The character faces looks like they have been stretched and their facial textures look horrible. The rain is pretty lame and I don't see any audio clues. When you move around in 3D free mode you. Characters clothing sometimes flap right through there bodies. They must be joking if this is a huge technological step in gaming than all previous Myst games. LOL

don€t hear footsteps and it looks like you are running on smooth butter, way to fast. I am afraid it might look like it is going to be a short game like URU.

uecasm
08-28-2005, 04:01 AM
neo: I know and understand your position; I was just gently poking fun (we're all friends here, after all, aren't we?). While I do happen to disagree with your position, that doesn't really matter. The world would be a much less interesting place if everybody agreed on everything.

(Incidentally, I used the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif smiley to denote me whispering "it's realtime" followed by your shocked expression -- not some sort of "spread the word" thing. Perhaps I should have used http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif instead. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

neo...1
08-28-2005, 10:34 PM
(Incidentally, I used the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif smiley to denote me whispering "it's realtime" followed by your shocked expression -- not some sort of "spread the word" thing. Perhaps I should have used http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif instead. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Yeah...maybe you should have! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Fair enough & no worries uecasm...

To Juliasin: Well said...& I share a similar despair but more of a hope in those who recognize what you expressed & in those who possess a willigness to not only maintain this "style" as you describe but make it even better! I'm ONE!

To Diegoa: I noticed you posted the same thing EVERYWHERE so I guess I'll just respond here.... I haven't played the demo yet...and I think it's FAR better that I don't for a while. I have a very strong feeling I will wind up sharing your feelings unfortunately. Anyhow, I'm not really surprised to hear what you have expressed but I'm also not surprised to hear people actually enjoying the demo. I won't say much else on this until I actually play the demo & then of course let the "effects" SUBSIDE.

LordAkira110
08-29-2005, 12:34 PM
Ok I didnt think I would be posting again.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Some of it is a rehash of what i already said.

before I begin, let me say that I have no doubt that Im going to enjoy the game. And I hope I wont sound like an arrogant little child who always has to be right.

Now...... To me this thread is mostly about 3D/rendered/realtime VS 2D/prerendered/Point and Click ect.

I stronlgly believe that Myst should never be 3D....Never. Now I know 3D means having free movement thus making it "feel" more real. Also it was said that while pre-rendered pics may look realistic it still doesnt have the same effect as being in a 3D world. After reading this I think some big points are being missed. Lets take a look at a few a these...

1. I have no doubt that this is going to be one of the best if not the best looking "3D rendered" game to date......noticed how I used "to date". Which means(I know I said this before) as better looking games using 3D are going to come out, which they are. Myst 5 is going to look out of date, silly looking unrealistic to comparison. Now the advantage for pre renderened pics, is that they'll always look realistic thus making it enjoyable to play again. Believe me, I am,after all its Myst.

2.Which brings the 2nd argument.....which is pre-renderned myst means having to point and click and the lost of free look and free movement, ect. And I'll admit thats a disadvantage. However I believe one of the things that gives Myst its Myst feel is the point and click which paces you, a deliberate slow pace if you would.

3. Ok so I guess you cant have your cake and eat it too. To have one thing is to give up another...... However I think the exception to this, the fine line, is Revelation. WAIT WAIT come down, breathe, I didnt like some of the puzzles either BUT thats not what Im talking about. What I am talking about, is the fact that Revelation had the best of both worlds. While not 3D and free moving. It DID give you "free look" or panning. While it also gives you that "myst paced game" with the point and click.(even though again you still get free look) Also with birds flying around in front of your face,the "free look" panning you get and that realistic pre-rendered pics..... are you honestly going to tell me that it doesnt feel or look more real that Uru or Myst 5, just because you had to click to the next spot(which is PART of myst) when it gives you everything else?????? As I recall on the demo and this is mentioned on another thread myst 5's back round is static(birds, ect.)
OK go ahead and rip me a new one....

LordAkira110
08-29-2005, 01:23 PM
Quote: "Also not to pick on you or anyhting but if uru is the best looking game you have.... you must not be much of a gamer."
ZeusmeisterX007 Said:
There aren't many 3-D games that look better than Uru. New FPS's do, but if your not a fan of them you might not have somethin better than Uru even if you are a gamer. I'm a rather RTS gamer and I don't have much that looks better than Uru.

Well Zeus that depends on what you consider FPS. Theres alot FPS's that are semi RPG's and vice versa. Theres even some semi RTS's out there....But your right for a pure RTS Uru has the cake. ehhh cake again. However if you ever played anything,anything newer I dont now how you can consider URU to be top of the line anymore.
Anywho point taken

Mr Zebe D
08-29-2005, 01:31 PM
There are better 3D games out already. Cyan took the deliberate decision not to implement Pixel Shader 2. You only get that on higher-end cards, and they wanted a bigger audience.

wendaniel
08-29-2005, 04:50 PM
I am admittedly late in joining the Myst Phenom (2001), but before Myst first came on the scene I believe that there was nothing like it. Can it also be said that the style of URU and now Myst V can be considered the same thing?
I have fully immersed myself in the Myst world, because it gives a good escape. Let yourself follow the same approach with this Myst and things might be "new".
At very minimum don't let yourself be too conservative (that is with a little "c").

Brobotics
08-29-2005, 07:01 PM
I think i'll miss the old myst style yeah, the demo is nice but I prefer the old myst games, with real people in a really nice looking rendered enviorment... URU was a nice extra on the Myst series and since it was made for multiplayer the 3d is understandable, imho they should have kept it in URU and made Myst as it always has been, great sounds, graphics, characters, bit more difficult puzzles (lets not make it easier cause some people cant solve it, its part of the game, it is normal that solving something can take more than 10 minutes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and of course a great story.

perhaps I change my mind after I played the full version of Myst V, have to wait and see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zoonishii
08-29-2005, 07:28 PM
I've got no qualms with "URU-style". It's not just because I thought Uru was great, I mean, I just finished the Myst V demo recently, and this "Classic Navigation" is very cool. It really is the best of both worlds.


~Zloonsheepfeed

LordAkira110
08-30-2005, 10:02 AM
I've got no qualms with "URU-style". It's not just because I thought Uru was great, I mean, I just finished the Myst V demo recently, and this "Classic Navigation" is very cool. It really is the best of both worlds.


~Zloonsheepfeed

Yea but the thing is... you dont need 3D to have "classic navigation". Revelation for me was much more real even though it wasnt free moving, it had real actors, you had panning(free look), rendered enviorment looks great.Its by far the best looking myst game.

LordAkira110
08-30-2005, 10:17 AM
Its a pretty pointless debate its already out and it is what it is. But Again i just strongly believe 3D is wrong for anything Myst.... ok ok ok, except for Uru, as it was already mentioned it was needed for a multi player enviroment . BUT it shoulda stayed there. It looks like Myst, Riven, Exile, and Revelation was all in line and moving forward. Each one sticking with what made myst, "myst" and able to add a level of realism that is incredible. Again just look at Revelation. Now Myst 5 is a huge side step ( and a back step ).
Maybe Cyan shoulda wrote the story for this one and let Ubi do the game making......

I apreciate everyones point of view. But theres a million other games that I can get my "3D" fix from, that will all be on the shelf and out-dated months maybe weeks later. Im sorry but I dont want that for Myst!

This is the last time Ill be clogging up the thread on the subject.

cantabilem
08-30-2005, 01:40 PM
I'd like to add my 2 cents as others here. I paste below a post I made, after trying EoA demo, in Cyan forums. Huge Uru fans disapproved, sometimes in a rather unfriendly way, but I don't care : that end for Myst series is messed up altogether. And I'll say it, even if it's too late http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Here's the post :
I downloaded and installed the demo flawlessly.
I was expecting : the end of Atrus story and of our character, a last effort to renew the graphical beauty of the Myst series, one step further Revelation (which I loved indeed).

What we get here:

Moves: every motion mode is affected by some sort of 'drunken' camera, far worse than in Uru, which was already unbearable. I had to stop this demo every 10 minutes, feeling sick (really) with the moves and angles of the camera. Classic or advanced classic modes feel the same from this point of view.
This camera is still worse during the cutscenes where two D'nis talk to you : it turns, winds, zooms, never stops moving. What crazy guy invented that? Looks like the silly camera moves in Matrix, only far sickier. I 'm under the feeling that somebody found it might be 'modern'. It is only pathetic. Even Myst (I) with its simple abrupt screen to screen movement was better than that.

Graphics: Graphics quality is OK . I played 1280*1024 32 bits antialiasing and aniso. on.
But DESIGN is quite poor : except the shiny globes, everything looks terribly un-natural. Look at these waves : they grow when dying on the sand (???). The sky looks like something painted, far behind the stunning beauty of Revelation and even Uru (which I disliked a lot) was beautifull from this point of view. Landcsapes are quite poor too. No surprise, no pretty light effect. Just 3D modelled landscapes as any graphics pro might create every day with appropriate tools. Once again, no life, no soul. Where's Myst magic ?

It is still worse with human characters. Their moves feel natural, but they are ugly, not realistic at all. They seem to have been disguised in some way. Their skins look like plastic or something like that. They wave their hands like dumb dolls. I can't believe that after Atrus and his sons and daughter and wife, some game conceptor will serve us these ghosts, without a soul...

general feeling: The game wants to be 'immersive' and achieves the exact contrary : this camera, those graphics and characters make you feel you're not in an Age, but in a game, not even a good one.
There's something like a 'new age' atmosphere (silly music too, falsely mimicking some oriental tune) which reminds me of elevators or supermarkets (
The exact contrary of Myst-Riven-Exile-Revelation, where you were inside the new world because it was appealing not because programmers demonstrated their skills in 3D graphics motion. It reminds me of a 'demo' meaning the demo scene - except that the game should fit in 740 Ko in such a case and would be meant for that.

Alas, Atrus have disappeared and those dumb asses D'nis are back, with their lost world that is supposed to be dead and actually can't die once for good.
And their silly speech about 'you have much to learn' and 'elemental creatures' and such childish things...

Gameplay: As i said, I had to stop every ten minutes, becoming sick, so I can't really comment. Moreover, I don't feel the desire to find what is to be done, I don't feel called by something or someone. I just feel these bloody D'nis are well lost on their island and I won't go there to find them.

All in all :It is more than a deception. It is a sequel to Uru in its worse aspects, not a Age to explore but another 3D game with puzzles and a lazzy background story. It is a very sad end for the Myst series, how very sad !

So, Revelation was the last Myst opus. Atrus will drink his bitter cup to the end of his life.

May he rest in peace, and Myst too.


PS : pardon me, Uru lovers : I don't like the game at all, but it doesn't mean there should not be more of them. Only, NOT the LAST Myst ever !

RWLeibrand
08-30-2005, 07:51 PM
Like most of us, I've been playing MYST since it first hit the store shelves over 10 yrs. ago. I too, liked the original "old style" and thought I would never get used to the "new style". However, as I began to concentrate on the storyline, I realized that the graphics only aided the comprehension of this "virtual art". I constantly found myself so mesmerized by the adventure, that the visuals were not as important to me anymore.
Remember the early days when adventure games were nothing more than text based? Your imagination draws the ultimate graphics.
I am not looking forward to this final chapter as it marks the end of an amazing personal journey. The joy I experienced when reading science fiction and "Lord of The Rings" with nothing more than a few sketches was incredible. My minds eye was opened by talented writers and fanciful artists. I'm 48 yrs. old now and my minds eye was opened again by "MYST". Occasionally, I've read these forums for other peoples opinions. Yet, I find myself agreeing with everyone.
I love both graphical styles. I hope the series never really ends. This modern classic has given me many hours of much deserved escape and relaxation from a very busy, stressful, and anxious world.
Thanks CYAN.

robsmyst
08-30-2005, 08:54 PM
No to the first topic, I liked the uru style and like the way Yeesha was in uru , conpared to the kid version of her, I like the 3D version more, also think the plot of uru could of been better if they never tryed to make it into a multiplayer game , it would of been more like myst 5, still good but the puzzles were not myst like and very hard to figure out on ones own

uecasm
08-31-2005, 02:54 AM
cantabilem: the "drunken camera" moves give you context. Since you can actually see what path is being followed, there's no way you can get lost in the jungle (as was common in M4) due to unexpected node layouts.

When listening to characters, you stay in one spot and the camera follows the movements of the other character (it's polite to look at people when they're talking to you, after all). But if that bothers you, then you can use the mouselook to lock the camera, and look at whatever angle you want. (In Classic mode, hold the right mouse button and move the mouse. In Classic Plus, click the RMB then move the mouse. In Free Move, simply move the mouse.)

The only thing which annoys me a little is that you're stuck in one spot. I liked the way that you could move to any position during speeches in Uru. Still, I can understand why -- the scripted animations wouldn't work too well if you changed position, especially if the other character walked through the spot you're standing in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That is, however, another thing that HL2 does better. Even so, EoA's characters are still significantly better than those in almost every other game.

cantabilem
08-31-2005, 02:20 PM
I do not agree at all with most of what you said.
1? the 'context' idea: it's a good idea to see your path, it isn't to make you sick with rolling moves.

2? Politeness when listening: I think. You may listen to somebody without turning around him (or her) and HE (or she) may speak wihout moving here and there like a stupid doll. And waving his arms... Looks like some dumb relative of Pinocchio.

And that doesn't amend either all the rest: another D'ni stuff (I was thinking about the word b***s**t), no more Myst magic, Atrus left alone, and so on...

Although I can perfectly understand that Uru lovers will appreciate, I, as a Myst fan, am altogether disappointed and rather angry.

I won't buy that game and weep on Atrus fate... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neo...1
09-01-2005, 11:39 PM
WOW TONS OF GOOD PERSPECTIVES & FEEDBACK HERE! Been busy busy so gonna' keep my responses short & sweet.

To LordAkira: Arrogant little child?

I don't think so. I agree with absolutely everything you said (as you probably already know if you've read any of the other pages). Although all of what you shared is "well said"... I'll just pick one comment in particular of yours to recognize & give you another bow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

You said: "I appreciate everyone's point of view. But there's a million other games that I can get my "3D" fix from, that will all be on the shelf and out-dated months maybe weeks later. Im sorry but I dont want that for Myst!"

Neither do I & again very well said! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

To Cantabliem:

I have not played the demo yet...& it is a good thing the more & more I read/hear about it. From the sounds of things...the game "looks" good but plays bad...but I really can't comment further because I haven't tried it yet. I can take a WILD guess though & say I'll be agreeing with EVERYTHING you expressed. I have stated numerous times as well that REVELATION for me will be the true "Grand Finale!" There's a poll being taken in this regard if you haven't noticed already:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262/m/5031058443

Your final quote:

"PS : pardon me, Uru lovers : I don't like the game at all, but it doesn't mean there should not be more of them. Only, NOT the LAST Myst ever!"

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

To RWLeibrand:

I appreciate & share your views & experience very much! MYST has always been such a tremedous "outlet" and/or "escape" for me also & my disappointment lies with its ending as well as the final rendering experience...certainly not a grand finale from my view for such a profound series.

To robsmyst:

Thanks for sharing & your view continues to show the variety of perspectives that there are on this! Glad you liked URU & although it (URU) was weak on a number of levels I think MYST V will certainly be better! Glad that you have something to really look forward to with no disappointments in sight! WIsh I could say the same. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

TO uecasm:
I'll be sure to make some further comments on the topics you mention once I try out the demo!
The way things are looking...it's gonna' be at least after the weekend.

~ Peace everyone ~

ZeusmeisterX007
09-02-2005, 12:24 AM
I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes...

Everyone keeps saying that Uru was a terrible game and it's graphics were horrible compared to point-and-click Myst games. I think that some there are several Ages in Uru that play out "classic Myst" style. Kadish Tolesa was a very good Age in my opinion, and I can't think of any way to improve it. (Except make the final puzzle harder to guess, because I guessed it on the third try, but that's a different story.) I also liked Ahnonay, the "Island of Time" from Path of the Shell. I thought that the Age was brilliantly designed and modelled except for that weird chair ride at end, which was glitchy. I think that maybe people are being too critical about the End of Ages demo. Think what people would have said about Revelation if the demo puzzle was the puzzle with the sinewaves that you have to do right after starting a new game. That puzzle was rather frustrating and would have been complained about as well. (I later found that that puzzle can be skipped.)

neo...1
09-02-2005, 01:03 AM
I don't think you're gonna' "get flamed" for your view...at least you won't by me! I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you & say I don't think URU or any part of URU for that matter feels anything like "CLassic Style" MYST. God bless your imagination! I haven't played the demo yet...but it does seem like there is a lot of criticism out there...while it is probably for good reason (I need to play this **** demo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)...still... it's not the official game yet so I guess we'll see! But like I said many times before...personally I already know where MYST V will fall short & why yet I still do hope to have some unexpected & pleasant surprises. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

cantabilem
09-02-2005, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by neo...1:
There's a poll being taken in this regard if you haven't noticed already:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5811098262/m/5031058443


Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of it. I voted (guess what http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

peace331
09-02-2005, 09:41 AM
Ok.. it's not usually my preference to get involved in settled disagreements, but anyway. In my opinion, when ZeusmeisterX007 mentioned about the "classic Myst style" I think it had little to do with the "feeling" Neo was referring to. Of course, the interface, the overall 3D paysages, etc. of URU is simply different of what Myst preserved; in the other hand, I do agree with ZeusmeisterX007 that URU might still bear the classic Myst style: in its puzzle-solving approach and game strategy.

When questioning the style itself, did anybody notice that even Myst IV was, at some point, only too distant? I mean, the puzzles I had to solve in Revelations reminded me more of "The Seventh Guest" than Myst itself for quite a number of times.

P.S)I admit, I love the "Exile feel & style" far more than the Uru's. Furthermore, Uru wasn't available to mac, which P. me O. And that sentiment unfortunately still lingers seeing the End Of Ages. Had a post concerning this issue already, it'd be unwise to double in here. Sorry with all respects to Uru fans.

neo...1
09-03-2005, 10:24 PM
Hi Peace thank you for your perspective!

Just to let you know in case you didn't read any of the other pages...that this disagreement goes well beyond just what Zeus & I recently shared...but I appreciate your effort!

While I pretty much agree with everything you said... I'll have to also respectfully disagree with your comment on REVELATION. MYST IV as I've shared a few other times... brought back a feeling that was reminiscent of RIVEN for me. Although unique & interestingly new... I really loved every puzzle & found them to be well placed for their ages within MYST & somehow...someway..strangely familiar (if that makes any sense!). As I also have said...I really had not felt this challenged since RIVEN. While I love EXILE...I found/find it to be both too easy & too short!

Thanks again for the response & I'll take a look for your other post!

PEACE!

By The Way... I like your quote: -- do you agree that fact is what you believe and not the truth? --

That's a tricky one...I certainly believe in truth & fact! Are they always the same though? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? My scientific mind says yes or that they should be...but my more "spritual mind" - if you will - sometimes recognizes truth where my scientific mind cannot...

peace331
09-04-2005, 07:25 AM
Thanks, Neo.

You haven't played The Seventh Guest, have you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I knew I was missing something and thus could somehow be misled. hope I didn't stall too much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I favoured Riven the most among Myst series, too. Really challenging, yet so unique, interwined, puzzles we had back then.

P.S) I like your signature, too.

deyvid32
09-05-2005, 03:15 PM
i've been reading those 12 pages for hours and have to say i totally agree with neo...
i'm a deep myst fan, from myst to revelation. i can even now remember me discovering these games. myst, riven, exile and revelation. can remember how these four 2D games were more and more incredible. 2D can (even in 2005) do wonderful games. for example, i turned crazy last year as i saw theses visual effects on revelation when u point something on the screen and everything around becomes out of focus. as i turned crazy more years ago as i saw the sun effects in exile... and so on... of course revelation was not perfect, it's puzzles were too simple, exile was really beautiful but too short, riven was the most difficult one, and so on... but **** it, there are only four games i can play again and again as years go by... myst and it's sequels (which, of course, doesn't include uru!!).
as much as i try to remember, i didn't feel anything playing uru (which by the way, i finished with help, just to see how they made it end...). i found it cold, totally out of purpose, with no soul.

so, i must say that, as neo and others, i'm really really disapointed end of ages looks like uru. i've downloaded the demo and, playing it, didn't feel like i was in the game. which i felt when i played revelation demo.
what the hell happened in cyan minds to leave 2D and leave WHAT MADE MYST BEING MYST... and i can't understand why they decided to make a sequel without giving us the feeling it was a sequel (which means looks like the others, with some improvements). uru was out from the mysts. don't they remember that?

maybe it's the end. yeah... must be the end.
and i'm sad the end comes like this.

david.

ps: am french, so please forgive me for my english... and there's no agressiveness at all in this post, be sure of that. i'm just so disapointed...

neo...1
09-05-2005, 11:43 PM
Hey deyvid!

Many thanks for taking the time & effort to read over the past 12 pages. I appreciate your view & obviously we share the same experience & disappointment unfortuantely. Your french came across just fine for the most part (to me) & I clearly understand your expression of frustration & disappointment rather then agression... in other words... "I feel your pain" man! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif In case you wanted to know the expression you used "turned crazy" is usually expressed as "went crazy" or "went crazy over" or "go crazy" !


As you know I mentioned it a few times...you said it well when you pointed out how the series rendering evolved & "got better" over time. I think with the right support behind this... it could only continue to get better. Ultimately as mentioned before...this may finally wind up with the positive characteristics & fusion from both 2-D & 3-D...and all will be well!

I agree with almost all of your brief descriptions of the games except REVELATION. Certainly it was not perfect & yes there were simple puzzles....but I didn't think that Spire's main puzzle was too simple at all....very complex, involved & well integrated into its Age. The marble code was a nice challenge but the answer (eventually realized)was staring you right in the face...but I'm always a fan of the "Ahh Hahhh" puzzle! The irrigation system in Serenia once visualized appropriately coupled with the "bailing" technique...also made for a nice challenge I thought. So... I'll just repeat that I thought EXILE's puzzles were too simple to be sure...& was glad that REVELATION brought some "Rivenesque" challenge back to the series for me. Oh & yes...I certainly cared for URU the least & I think you touch on a very good point about its "coldness"... I found it to be that way as well...but never really articulated the feeling as you described. The more I think about it the more I agree with those sentiments... yet I also know there are people out there that absolutely LOVE URU too...

Anyhow...in sum...YES...it is truly sad if this is truly the end. I don't agree or like the choice at all that was made for bringing this series to an end....but obviously we've got to take what we can get & there are plenty of those who also disagree with us. SO at least someone can be happy & who knows...however unlikely it may be...a hope could be that CYAN may have another trick up their sleeve!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

HexenX
09-06-2005, 12:20 AM
Look, it's simple:

They need to finish the game earlier and so they are going for the, IMO, crappy style of real-time.

I really wish they could've stayed with live-action, but I guess it's not gonna happen.

Why make a 3D game when there is so many of those out there already?

MYST was unique (well, almost) in its live-action worlds. I was disappointed enough to hear about Uru, but now: the *last* MYST game?!?

Ubisoft, Me = Angry

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

neo...1
09-06-2005, 09:20 AM
Hey Hexen! When it comes to MYST I share those feelings. Well summed & simplified. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Takua-Kaita-600
09-06-2005, 06:45 PM
Personally I think Ubi has really screwed Myst up. I think Cyan may have been able to make Mysts 3 and 4 eventually, they would have been radically different though, but because of Ubi look at Cyan now! It's 2 people!!!

Jnathus
09-06-2005, 07:39 PM
Well.. to be fair, I don't think Ubisoft is ENTIRELY responsible for Myst's ending. I think that Myst had to end, and although I'm not happy about it.. maybe it's for the best.

I still remember that Riven The Sequel to Myst was just supposed to be called simply "Riven." That wasn't Ubisoft's call, but they made the Myst III and Myst IV naming calls as well as the fact that URU had to be marketed as "ages beyond Myst" instead of just URU. I don't think that little naming controversy is the problem that resulted in a lack of popularity and ultimately Cyan's reduction in staff, however I think it may be a sign of what might've been going wrong. I don't really know.. that's just me thinking (sometimes a very dangerous thing).

I'm MORE upset, now that I've built a reasonably powerful computer, that Myst V's demo ran EXTREMELY slow (20 fps and lower in some sections) even though I get decent to great frames in just about any other current day game. I consider myself a Computer Power User and therefore know quite a bit more than the average joe. I know how to squeeze every drop of performance from my machine and no tweaking has helped the demo run faster unless I like blurry low quality textures, the lowest resolution and no AA / AF.

I've already ordered Myst V, but if I start getting hitches and lockups, I may have to cross my arms and sit here not enjoying myself just because. And that will just ADD to how sad I am about Cyan's reduction (and probably demise). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

neo...1
09-06-2005, 08:37 PM
Hey Taku & Jnathus...

After reading the upsetting article posted by mszv which offers some insight into what's going on with CYAN...

http://www.adventuregamers.com/newsitem.php?id=1057

...there is one particular passage that sticks out to me like a soar thumb... it's this one:

"It may seem unfathomable for the company whose Myst and Riven games have exceeded 12 million units sold worldwide to fall on such troubled times. Unfortunately, the company risked many years and millions of dollars to develop the ambitious Uru, which ultimately failed to capture the massively-multiplayer audience it hoped to reach, leaving Cyan with financial burdens too deep to overcome."

Sorry for double posting the following but I don't feel like re-wording & re-writing this again & would like to include it here so:

I do understand (& have always understood), appreciate & admire CYAN's ambition/vision as well as care for their fans. I have said & will always say that.... as well intended as URU was meant to be - which AGAIN is no doubt respectable - it doesn't mean the choice was correct & there are many reasons already discussed and probably many more not even discussed that contributed to its failings. I think as was also touched upon before...each game (& decision for that matter) speaks for itself. This article concludes my feelings on URU indefinitely. I have several reasons...but if there is just ONE reason to be upset with URU & its decision to be implemented into the MYST series THIS HAS GOT TO BE IT for me! To repeat...I will always honor the intention & respect the endeavor behind it...but there is always a time & a place for dreams & clearly URU was not well timed & I do not feel or have ever felt that it was well placed in the series...but hey...that's just me...

SO Taku...while you may be correct in blaming UBI for this... I have to say you can't blame UBI ENTIRELY for this...it was a decision CYAN was surely a part of & they are certainly paying the price for it. Now in regards to your other comment...I would have absolutely loved if CYAN waited and took on EXILE & REVELATION themselves. As much as I love EXILE & REVELATION....WOW...I can only imagine what the possibilities would have been there. We might very well have had 2 more incredible "RIVEN" caliber games. Uh oh...starting to get upset again... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

On the whole I will also just re-post the following for whatever it may be worth:

to anyone undecided in buying MYST V & who loves the MYST series (or even part of it) regardless of whatever fault you may find within ... it's worth keeping a great co. like CYAN going (maybe not even for the MYST V game per say) by buying the game... who knows it might just help & we could get something great in return! If ever there was a time to support the company & you want to somehow...I can't really think of a better way to do it. They only need a few million dollars... no problem http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

RWLeibrand
09-07-2005, 04:33 PM
ALL,

I don't contrbute to these forums very often, but I have a confession to make: I love MYST in ALL it's versions. I have a feeling that most of you all do too. However, to put things in proper perspective, the real culprit, in my humble opinion, is time.
In 1994, PCs were just catching on. MYST was so graphically and storyline revolutionary, that the industry (still in it's infancy) had never seen anything like it before.
However, as computers began to get more and more powerful, adventure gamers began to demand more depth and complexity within the games. The industry responded by releasing so many "copy cats" of the MYST genre, that the unique qualities we all fell in love with became common.
As more time passed by, My interests expanded into other genres which took my focus off MYST. Yet, everytime a new release was announced, I had to have it. I supported the publishers regardless of changes that had been made throughout the years. How many of you all can say that?
We love to complain, it's our nature. However, loyalty is harder and requires an acceptance and appreciation of how things are rather than how we wish they would be.
I will remain true to this series; not because of it's stunning scenery or interesting characters, but because of it's story. I've always felt "MYST" fans were special because they appreciated the interaction with objects embedded within the story which were crucial to understanding the struggle Atrus was dealing with in his life. However, most gaming magazine reviews were highly critical of not only the series, but of the MYST fans as well. Personally, I think those who scoffed at MYST simply couldn't understand it the same way we did. It was their job to review the games. We, on the other hand, played it because we loved it.
Somehow, over time, our focus has been redirected and many people now see the series differently today than 11 years ago. I think that collectively, we are ultimately to blame for the decline of the series because our interests have been splintered exponentially due to the quantum leaps made in computer technology within the past several years.
May I suggest that we give CYAN, a fantastic company who we all owe a debt of gratitude for literally thousands of hours of gameplay a well desearved vote of confidence. Over the years, they have had perhaps more pressure thrust upon them by the gaming community than most people realize. In their quest to take the genre to the next higher level and the incredible stresses of finance, the story and styles have made a few twists and turns that were probably unexpected. I simply think they got caught in a shark feeding frenzy when all the other publishing companies began to squeeze the community for revenue share. CYAN was catapulted to the top of the heap by us. They, therefore, became the prime target. Success, though difficult to achieve, is even harder to maintain.
Thank you CYAN. You can always count on my support. This MYST fan will always consider you as Number 1.

Sincerely,

Robert W. Leibrand

neo...1
09-07-2005, 06:53 PM
HI Bob!

I'm glad you have decided to contribute as of late. Your posting was like a fine piece of poetry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif In case you didn't know btw I did respond to your pm a while ago.

You touch on some very good points & I think loyalty is something that in today's society whether it be the gaming industry or anywhere else for that matter... it's just simply missing...or lacking...

Don't really have too much else to say other than... very well said Bob...very well said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

rw.
09-07-2005, 07:10 PM
RWLeibrand, one word, bravo! I especially agree with this statement of yours,

"May I suggest that we give CYAN, a fantastic company who we all owe a debt of gratitude for literally thousands of hours of gameplay a well desearved vote of confidence."

I too have been a fan ever since I first played Myst and I have purchased all of them, some of them, more then once. I need no other reason anymore to buy a game Cyan has developed, or licensed out to be developed, then that Cyan has had a hand in it. And, when Cyan gets back on its feet with new funding, and I simply refuse to belive they won't, I will be ready and willing to buy the next product they come out with. If Cyan develops it, that is all the sell I need to buy it.

Oh and RWLeibrand, I hope you post here more often, your post was a very fine read.

neo...1
09-07-2005, 08:02 PM
TO RW:

"...when Cyan gets back on its feet with new funding, and I simply refuse to belive they won't, I will be ready and willing to buy the next product they come out with. If Cyan develops it, that is all the sell I need to buy it."

AMEN to that!

ZeusmeisterX007
09-07-2005, 08:59 PM
I've decided to buy End of Ages right away.

neo...1
09-07-2005, 09:24 PM
Right on Zeus!

RWLeibrand
09-07-2005, 09:51 PM
neo...1 & rw.,

Thanks for your support; the choice of words are easy when the feelings are genuine.
Let me share something with you that may be a signal of things to come.
My hobby is model railroading. I've had Microsoft's "Train Simulator" sim program since it first came out in 2001. It's a very popular game, but only with us train nuts. Microsoft planned to publish an updated version, but decided to pull out when their budget bean counters produced research data indicating market share was not large enough. That left us very upset, to say the least. But guess what? There have been several indivduals who have taken the 2001 program (which the graphics code is very dated by todays standards) and have significantly improved upon it. Over the past 4 years, these independant efforts have gotten the attention of some large software publishers only because the improvements are sold in the form of new locomtives, rolling stock and routes. These have generated hundreds of thousands of dollars to those individuals who first improved upon the original code! It appears as though a new and dramatically improved railsim is finally going to market after all. The corporate greed factor has finally kicked in and recognized a good money-making opportunity!
I mention this only to illustrate the positive nature of how a computer game has been able to capture the imaginations and loyalties of devoted fans. MYST fans are a very devoted group, regardless of version and playability preferences. I think if we focus our energy and express our support in a very tangible way, then the future funding issues CYAN will have to face may become easier. When the Miller brothers first embarked upon this journey, they had to know that it was a gamgle. When MYST became a runaway smash hit that no one was expecting, I can only imagine their euphoria.
I'm sure they've done a lot of soul searching within the past couple of years trying to figure out how did they get from "Mt. Everest to Death Valley". It's happened to all of us, usually because we were either not paying attention to the details or thought their was a money tree growing in the back yard! That's called adversity. My guess is the Miller's have gotten quite an education over the past 11 years. As long as our words of support through these forums get to them directly along with our tangible "votes of confidence" at the cash register make an impact with the publisher, I see dawn breaking on the horizon.

Thanks again,
Bob

LordAkira110
09-08-2005, 03:26 PM
HUH?!?! Didnt I say, that I wasnt going to post again on the subject.
But hearing the recent news and reflecting on it, I find my self very very upset. And most of my anger is tords Uru.
Its very clear that Uru was the Failure that put Cyan in its current state. Now there might be many reasons on why Uru, was and is a Failure. But theres one good reason that I think I can point to...... Yep you guessed it, realtime 3D.
Why would they even want to make Uru ,realtime/3D/rendered. Well, Ive heard for it to work in an multiplayer enviroment it needed to be in 3d.... ok I agree with that. It could also be that they were trying to appeal to a broader audince, with FPS and other games using similiar technology doing so well.
So they say(Cyan)..... hey if we make our game 3d maybe we can attract some of those younglings from their Halflife or whatever. What didnt happen though, was that big red flashing light going off and a loud siren. Know I now theres always an exception but how many 12,15 year old kids running around blowing each other up, are going to take the time to sit down and play a game like Uru just cause its "3D".(I would be the exception but I wasnt the marketing target, most likely).
Even if you liked Uru and "3D" type games it still cost them millions of dollars to develop that technology, which is why I believe they would of needed that new audinence to make back their money. But that didnt happen.
Now what absolutly puzzles me..........
Is that if they had to push Myst 5 EoA out so quickly(do to their financial troubles) and try to make enough sales to save them selves. WHy oh why in the world would they make it Uru Style??????? That to me, is freakin Frimbizal!
Wait wait .... ok I know that they were trying to "recycle" to save money. But then why couldnt they reuse the engine or whatever it would be called for Revelation. Is it because UBI soft would have to give it to them? Anyway Read my other posts( theres only 4) on why 3D for Myst is stupid. Then I think you can understand my frustration a little bit more.

To: whoever said that UBI softy is the reason for Myst's failings.....
Thats absurb and crazy. Sure I didnt like some of the puzzles either, but as far as the feel of the games and the graphics(2D/prerendered ect.) they were able to continue that line (which is what made Myst popular in the first place)from myst/riven all the way to revelation while evolving it, Hence panning(free look) and other goodies. So its now Cyans last Myst game(maybe last game period) and instead of staying on that line that is Myst-Revelation, they start from Uru. Which by the way, is way down the ladder with all the other flash in the pan 3D games.

Ok /end rant

mszv
09-08-2005, 03:34 PM
Hi all,
Cyan hasn't done 2D in a long time - it's not the technology they use anymore, hasn't been for years. Riven is the last 2D game they did, and that was years ago. 3D is what they do, it's what they work on, it's what they know. From what I read, they wanted to do 3D for a long time. I think they have worked on the technology, and the new game (from what I've seen) and Uru looks beautiful. This is my opinion - others may or may not like how Uru looks.

So it makes sense to me that they would do a 3D game. I also think that, if they are doing a game set in their game world, the world of the D'ni, they might want to pull in ages that perhaps were part of Uru, but never got released, I've been wanting to see the tunnels for some time.

My opinion, as always - others have their - opinion that is!

LordAkira110
09-08-2005, 03:40 PM
I see your point. But ubisoft had the technology to make revelation 3D but they didnt. Maybe being a larger gaming company they knew what was best for Myst. Ironic, HUH

Jnathus
09-08-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by LordAkira110:
But theres one good reason that I think I can point to...... Yep you guessed it, realtime 3D.
Why would they even want to make Uru ,realtime/3D/rendered. Well, Ive heard for it to work in an multiplayer enviroment it needed to be in 3d....

It could also be that they were trying to appeal to a broader audince, with FPS and other games using similiar technology doing so well.

Now what absolutly puzzles me..........
Is that if they had to push Myst 5 EoA out so quickly(do to their financial troubles) and try to make enough sales to save them selves. WHy oh why in the world would they make it Uru Style???????

To my understanding, Cyan wanted to go realtime 3D because it was the answer to many of their movement and believability issues. RealMYST was what they really wanted Myst to be originally. A place that felt real.. because of day / night transitions, moving around freely exploring every nook and cranny, not chained to the rail of slides that they put together for you. Their move to 3D started FIRST with the desire to open more up to the explorer. They didn't originally know how they were going to do the multiplayer. The first poll I took part of in spoke of it being 'episodic' and requiring an online component for updates with the POSSIBILITY of working collaboratively with others (not the necessity).

However, in light of URU's failure they had to use what they had to make Myst V. Cyan didn't make or utilize the technology implemented in Myst III or IV, so their only alternative to realtime 3D would be to go back to the old Hypercard system used in Myst and Riven. I'm certain they wouldn't have done that. At this point Myst V is realtime 3D.. and if Cyan does find funding for Something Else, I'd bet it will be Realtime 3D as well.

About URU failing, I can't argue that it didn't. What I can argue is that URU DID appeal to a different audience. This was something I initially didn't like. To me, gaming is mostly a single-player experience. I play one MMORPG and a few First-person shooters in deathmatch, but the majority of my gaming is single-player and by myself. Since adventure games were always single-player (unless you had someone in the room with you), I couldn't see URU surviving. Unfortunately, I was right, but my hesitence was ill-founded and part of the problem. Maybe that's a marketing problem, or maybe I just didn't like change. Either way, the audience URU drew was a big part of the experience, and that is something that I've enjoyed in UU and also something I'll forever be sorry I missed out on when I didn't try prologue.

rw.
09-08-2005, 05:49 PM
This is kind of touched on before in previous posts, and somewhere I saw a video of Rand talking about Realtime 3D. If I recall, the gist of that desire to use Realtime 3D is this, to create as real and as immersive world as possible, and it is to some degree easier and less costly as the system can extrapolate and generate dynamically additional movement based on rules within the code.

If you have played the demo, I think they have succeeded wonderfully with the Realtime 3D and, at the same time, made substantial progress in moving the images in Realtime 3D toward the quality of 2D/prerendered.

Watch the dynamics of the clouds, incredible. pay close attention to the dynamic movement of individual blades of grass and the greater realism of the movement of the water. Realtime 3D opened up the door to those environmental dynamics and realism. The point, to approximate what we experience in the real world so that the mind might more readily accept what we view on the screen as a real and immersive invironment.

Of course what was lost, as Rand mentioned due to not being able to blend well, is the full motion video cuts that we had in previous games of Rand as Atrus, Catherine, Yeesha, and the brothers, and of which I am fond and will miss. This was done to help ensure a seamless environment that did not cause the visually processing viewing mind to stop and go, wait, stop, that doesn't fit. So, the characters also were done with Realtime 3D technology. But again, what they accomplished with capturing and mapping the movements of a real individual, Rand in the case of Esher, into the game I think is fantastic.

As for URU Live failing, yes, commercially it did. Still, I think with a little more funding and a bit more time, they would have overcome the remaining technical hurdles. They, in my opinion, were really trying to deliver into a multiuser environment such detail and dynamics, that it was just to close to the edge of the technological envelope.

This of course is just my opinion and half-penny worth. MSZV is absolutely right, "My opinion, others have theirs - opinion that is."

LordAkira110
09-08-2005, 05:53 PM
Obviuosly Uru didnt draw enough new people and obviouly it wasnt as broad as they hoped it would be. They knew how many people thye needed signed up to keep it going. And they must of planned on having those numbers. But they didnt. If they planned on mostly already current myst fans to keep it oging it would obviously still be up and going.
And again why didnt they utilize myst3 or revelations technology? Obviously with that left out, they only have Uru style or the "hypercard" system of myst/riven. So you got me there.....But with Uru bombing like it did. Again, I say why didnt they utilize M4?????
You already know my argument on why 3D is wrong with myst, so in my mind that even stacks against it even more. YOu guys are right though.... If you liked, didnt like uru its just an opinion. But thats irrelevent to the fact that it tanked. and with them know trying to save them selves with the sales of M5. Why wouldnt they stay stick with the other 4 succesfull games. (i know sales for M3 and M4 werent close to the 13 millions copies world wide of myst and riven BUt no game would. Myst was if not one of the first cd rom games out lol. I had to buy a cd rom to play myst)


And you know what...I like 3D Games. I play tons of games that are Online multi player(War craft, age of empires, Star wars galaxies...ect) I also play half life, Real tournament, and a bunch other single player titles that are the Hot and New best looking game thats out there... and you know what ,in about 3 weeks I finished it/bored with it, its now a 3 week old out dated piece of **** and it then finds it way on my shelf or Ebay.
With that said they COULD of stayed on that line that is Myst thru Revelation

rw.
09-08-2005, 05:57 PM
You are right, they could of used the M4 or previous technology. But Rand and Cyan had a dream. The kind of dream that energized them when they first developed Myst, and they followed the dream.

Sometimes dreams come true, and sometimes, they don't quite meet up with reality or work out quite as planned.

LordAkira110
09-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Watch the dynamics of the clouds, incredible. pay close attention to the dynamic movement of individual blades of grass and the greater realism of the movement of the water. Realtime 3D opened up the door to those environmental dynamics and realism. The point, to approximate what we experience in the real world so that the mind might more readily accept what we view on the screen as a real and immersive invironment.

Uhhhh yea and M4 had Birds flying off guard rails right infront of your face, while using "real" rendered images. And I did play the demo and the whole look and feel of the enviroment looks lame if not dead. Again that is my opinion. After all beauty is in the eye of beholder. Unless your UGLY http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif