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View Full Version : FW190, Bf109 gunsights- why are they so weird?



drizz01
12-24-2004, 03:02 AM
Why are gunsights for the 109 and 190 both so weird?

It seems that they are cut in half.

Also, the target zone seems to be barely over the front bulkhead of the 190, making it hard to keep the target in sight. (Leading to the next question, why did they make 190's so hard to see out of?)

Does anyone else have problems with these gunsights? Personally, it is very hard to aim weapons on these planes.

Any suggestions, other than practice (which I am doing)?

x6BL_Brando
12-24-2004, 03:25 AM
Hit Shift+F1 to centre these gunsights.

123-Wulf-JG123
12-24-2004, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
Hit Shift+F1 to centre these gunsights. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez Brando..... dont give away secrets like that!
Nothing funnier than guys who WON'T(or can't http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) read the manual posting those classics.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

flyingscampi
12-24-2004, 05:43 AM
Don't mention the view out of the FW-190 cockpit in Il-2 (sore subject).

The gunsights in Luftwaffe aircraft are mounted on the right hand side of the cockpit hence the Shift-F1 (Gunsight view) to **** your head to the right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flyingscampi
12-24-2004, 05:46 AM
I meant shift http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Vipez-
12-24-2004, 06:28 AM
i don't think he asking how to center the revi.. infact he is partly right, looking at the historical photos revis were much higher than they are in game.. so you are partly right, imho the revis' height is just too low (or the revis have been mounted too low on some planes..) basicly it means it's harder to shoot with german planes.. it just needs practise to get used to it.

Bar in FW-190 is an other story (a long one and sad one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif )

LStarosta
12-24-2004, 09:27 AM
Nothing like pickled herring on Christmas Eve.

SkyPiggies
12-24-2004, 09:31 AM
Completely unrelated point:

Don't the 109 and 190 have mirrors? Or did German pilots have rubber necks?

In fact, all the German planes seem not to have them

JG301_nils
12-24-2004, 11:07 AM
The Shift+F1 is more or less common knowledge after these years, but WHY were the German gunsights offset? Why didn´t they center the sight in the front window as other countries did??
-nils-

Chuck_Older
12-24-2004, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
i don't think he asking how to center the revi.. infact he is partly right, looking at the historical photos revis were much higher than they are in game.. so you are partly right, imho the revis' height is just too low (or the revis have been mounted too low on some planes..) basicly it means it's harder to shoot with german planes.. it just needs practise to get used to it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re-read the original post- he says it looks like they are cut in half. He doesn't say "half-size" or "too small"

Shooting with German planes is not different that with other planes. many folks have a heck of a time hitting things with the Bf-109, and they never seem to discover the interesting point that at certain speeds, it's easier to get strikes with the '109.

There are planes with worse gunsight pictures than the FW-190, by far. Take a razorback P-47 up for a spin sometime! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The FW-190's sight has something odd about it. I was convinced of this beyond a shadow of a doubt and I won't get into optical quality and the way light bends here.but the sad fact is that such a stink was raised about it that the maker of the game has flatly stated that it will not be fixed and is not open for discussion. the hand that fed the dog got bitten too often on this subject.

But I can hit my target in a '190 with no trouble. Any aircraft in the sim has limitation for deflection shooting, and again, the '190 is not the plane with the worst over-the-nose view in the game.

take up the flyable fighters and see for yourself; the FW-190 is definitely not the worst

jeroen-79
12-24-2004, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG301_nils:
The Shift+F1 is more or less common knowledge after these years, but WHY were the German gunsights offset? Why didn´t they center the sight in the front window as other countries did??
-nils- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They put the sight in front of the right eye so that the left eye didn't look through it.
Maybe they preferred to have one eye see the whole reticle instead of two eyes seeing half of the reticle?
A bigger glass would have solved that though.
http://www.geocities.com/jeroen_huijben/sight.txt

Jungmann
12-24-2004, 01:22 PM
"They put the sight in front of the right eye so that the left eye didn't look through it.
Maybe they preferred to have one eye see the whole reticle instead of two eyes seeing half of the reticle?
A bigger glass would have solved that though."

I don't think this is the answer, IMO. The whole purpose of a reflector gunsight over the older ring and post sights was to project the reticle at infinity. In other words, in RL, the pilot sees the ring as out there--on top of the target--not a foot or two in front of his face, and thus forcing him to constantly change the muscles of his eyes and focus between something close up and far away.

The reflector reticle was designed to be used with both eyes open, with the pilot's focus out there, at his target and the sky around it, so he could track the target better and better hold on to his situational awareness.

I know all that for a fact. What I don't know at all is why the Germans mounted their sights off center-line. Even with all the posts on this subject, I've never seen an authoratative answer. Anybody?

Cheers,

Korolov
12-24-2004, 01:28 PM
I believe they mounted the sights offset for the same reason as how you aim a rifle; both eyes are focused on the target, but you only see one reticle through the right eye.

Dolemite-
12-24-2004, 02:03 PM
German engineers wanted to give newb pilots a hard time, so they moved all the gunsights to the right, and left "Shift-F1" out of all the pilot manuals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Vipez-
12-24-2004, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
i don't think he asking how to center the revi.. infact he is partly right, looking at the historical photos revis were much higher than they are in game.. so you are partly right, imho the revis' height is just too low (or the revis have been mounted too low on some planes..) basicly it means it's harder to shoot with german planes.. it just needs practise to get used to it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re-read the original post- he says it looks like they are cut in half. He doesn't say "half-size" or "too small"

Shooting with German planes is not different that with other planes. many folks have a heck of a time hitting things with the Bf-109, and they never seem to discover the interesting point that at certain speeds, it's easier to get strikes with the '109.

There are planes with worse gunsight pictures than the FW-190, by far. Take a razorback P-47 up for a spin sometime! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The FW-190's sight has something odd about it. I was convinced of this beyond a shadow of a doubt and I won't get into optical quality and the way light bends here.but the sad fact is that such a stink was raised about it that the maker of the game has flatly stated that it will not be fixed and is not open for discussion. the hand that fed the dog got bitten too often on this subject.

But I can hit my target in a '190 with no trouble. Any aircraft in the sim has limitation for deflection shooting, and again, the '190 is not the plane with the worst over-the-nose view in the game.

take up the flyable fighters and see for yourself; the FW-190 is definitely not the worst <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so what planes do you think have worse forward views than 190? (not counting P-47 D-22, D-10) ..

BuzzU
12-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Shooting at the enemy when you can't see it, but hope you guessed right, is accepted in the FW now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MEGILE
12-24-2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why are gunsights for the 109 and 190 both so weird? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Germans were craph airplane manufacturers.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-24-2004, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why are gunsights for the 109 and 190 both so weird? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Germans were craph airplane manufacturers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that must be the point.

VW-IceFire
12-24-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why are gunsights for the 109 and 190 both so weird? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Germans were craph airplane manufacturers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they were, the British wouldn't have praised the designs as much as they did. Particularly the FW190.

The Zero and several other Japanese planes also have the gunsight off center. It must have something to do with the eyes...something that the Allies didn't do.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the concept of just projecting the ring on the windscreen like in the Tempest V. I think thats the best gunsight idea I've ever heard of. The Corsair comes pretty close to that...a separate reflector thats fairly large. It just makes sighting the target so easy...regardless of the nose of the plane or anything like that.

meh_cd
12-24-2004, 03:04 PM
Do you have a pic of the Tempest gunsight? It sounds neat.

p1ngu666
12-24-2004, 05:31 PM
maybe so site didnt get in the way on normal flying?

corsairs is nice, but wouldnt like to crash with that there...

MEGILE
12-24-2004, 05:36 PM
Icefire I don't quite think you caught my sarcasim there so I'll do it again for you...


Because Germans were craph airplane manufacturers.

muaBDnuerF
12-24-2004, 05:51 PM
I guess it's the same principle as with the aiming system on the G36 assault rifle (standard issue in the German army now, has a small "scope" on it with a red dot in the center). Have both eyes open, one through the gunsight, the other one on target, and you see the dot "on" the target. Your eyes are kinda tricked into thinking that the dot is actually there, imagine a laserpointer..

123-Wulf-JG123
12-24-2004, 06:06 PM
At last...someone is getting there... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Absolutely Right.

Kandiru-Aku
12-24-2004, 06:44 PM
Funny how i evolved in this game. I remember the days when i used to fly Yaks and LAs. Now i am exclusively dedicated to the Gustavs and the KingCobra.

You live, you learn. That luxury was rare in the war, but we have it in IL2. I remember the day when a guy in a BF-1096A/S put me to shame in a LA-7 over and over again. We were getting a lot into turnfighting. That day i promised myself to learn turnfighting in the 109. And i have to tell you that once on that path, it becomes a ballet of combining all 3 axes and taking it to a higher level.

The KingCobra was a natural extension of the 109 or maibe thats how i see it. Love the snap stalls and totally unexpected trajectories, and the fact that i am sitting on top of the CG so blackouts happen less.

Anyway thumbs up for DE engineering. You tell me plz what other WW2 planes could endure 800 kmph dives, and then climb back up with wings still attached to fuselagehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif?

Sorry if post too long and boring

Kan

_Neveraine_
12-24-2004, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Icefire I don't quite think you caught my sarcasim there so I'll do it again for you...


Because Germans were craph airplane manufacturers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That of course would explain why British Rocket and Jet Technology was so far behind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif No need to troll Megile.

muaBDnuerF post seems to make the most sense

p1ngu666
12-24-2004, 08:40 PM
yes, the miles m52 waa miles behind german jets
but, u catch things up quickly when u can do 1000mph http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif