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GH_Klingstroem
01-08-2006, 02:41 PM
And with 25% fuel she was a delight to fly in the sim! Much easier than some other planes... I dont see what all the complains come from! Fly a 190 which I almost always do and the p51 is very easy to fly! Only prob I had was the breaking up of the wings at high G...
anyway, just some thoughts of mine...

Bearcat99
01-08-2006, 03:09 PM
I sometimes do 25 & tanks. Even at 50 it isnt a bad plane.... I have my issues with it but i still fly it. It is what it is in the sim so I am just trying to work with what I have and learn to fly it better.

gx-warspite
01-08-2006, 03:17 PM
25% fuel in a P-51 is a lot. They didn't get their great range with small fuel tanks, you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Mustang has 192 gallons internal capacity. Contrast this with 66 gallons for a 109. At 25% tanks, you're getting more fuel than a 109 at 50%.

Kuna15
01-08-2006, 03:18 PM
P-51 indeed offers some advantages... my favourite is C model in game. It is fast and handles very nice. If I may give you few advices.
In dive you must carefully watch your speed (I usually throttle down and combat flaps when in dive) to avoid wing trim. It is better to dive in shallow angle.
And set convergence on low values I have mine around 180m.
In D20NA model always use K14 gyrosight it can ease up gunnery a lot. In regular ETO dogfight I always fly on 25% fuel. 3900km/4 is more than enough for that purpose. However, D model has reduced range so it may not be wise idea to select 25% in all situations.

neural_dream
01-08-2006, 03:19 PM
Among prop planes the RAF Mustang has the highest sea-level speed in the game. Over 650km/h.

SeaFireLIV
01-08-2006, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I dont see what all the complains come from! QUOTE]

A lot of kids view this plane with hero-worship (not a bad thing in general, I love the Spit), but it does make them think it can do anything. The complaints come when they find they have to learn to fly and fight in it before they can kill anything (as the real pilots had to).

Brain32
01-08-2006, 05:11 PM
And with 25% fuel she was a delight to fly in the sim! Much easier than some other planes... I dont see what all the complains come from! Fly a 190 which I almost always do and the p51 is very easy to fly! Only prob I had was the breaking up of the wings at high G...
anyway, just some thoughts of mine...
I had like completely same expirience(I'm also FW190 flyer), I took P51D20(75%fuel - bad FW habbit), the result was two FW190D9 and one 109G-K downed(eventually I was killed by my own stupidity)...
And they say P51 is unusable...

drose01
01-08-2006, 08:55 PM
But what do you FW pilots have to say about the FIREPOWER issue???

A Mustang feels like a peashooter compared to a 190 (or almost any cannon-equipped/non-US aircraft).

VW-IceFire
01-08-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
And with 25% fuel she was a delight to fly in the sim! Much easier than some other planes... I dont see what all the complains come from! Fly a 190 which I almost always do and the p51 is very easy to fly! Only prob I had was the breaking up of the wings at high G...
anyway, just some thoughts of mine...
Which P-51 were you flying? Thats also important.

p1ngu666
01-08-2006, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And with 25% fuel she was a delight to fly in the sim! Much easier than some other planes... I dont see what all the complains come from! Fly a 190 which I almost always do and the p51 is very easy to fly! Only prob I had was the breaking up of the wings at high G...
anyway, just some thoughts of mine...
I had like completely same expirience(I'm also FW190 flyer), I took P51D20(75%fuel - bad FW habbit), the result was two FW190D9 and one 109G-K downed(eventually I was killed by my own stupidity)...
And they say P51 is unusable... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

brain, u dont have wobble, for those with wobble p51 is one of the worst http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

trick with p51 is dont go too fast or u rip wings easily, dont slow down too much or ull wobble about alot, and have a horrible spin/stall

crazyivan1970
01-08-2006, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
And with 25% fuel she was a delight to fly in the sim! Much easier than some other planes... I dont see what all the complains come from! Fly a 190 which I almost always do and the p51 is very easy to fly! Only prob I had was the breaking up of the wings at high G...
anyway, just some thoughts of mine...

Are you insane? How dare you to say thing like this? Unacceptable!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Friendly_flyer
01-09-2006, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by drose01:
But what do you FW pilots have to say about the FIREPOWER issue???

A Mustang feels like a peashooter compared to a 190 (or almost any cannon-equipped/non-US aircraft).

That's possibly a result of the P-51 not having canons. Not that the .50ies are useless though, have you tried being at the receiving end? It€s mostly a matter of finding a convergence you like and learn to judge distance. Even the 8 X .303 Hurricane is a killer with the right convergence.

If you like nose-mounted canons, stick to Axis.

Hristo_
01-09-2006, 01:53 AM
Tried it here and there in crazy DF servers. A decent plane, just not my cup of tea.

Down low it is challenged by 190 and dominated by La-7. Up high it gets the better of both though.

Probably the best plane for survival.

SeaFireLIV
01-09-2006, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by drose01:
But what do you FW pilots have to say about the FIREPOWER issue???

A Mustang feels like a peashooter compared to a 190 (or almost any cannon-equipped/non-US aircraft).

So you expect the P51 to have the same effective firepower as a cannon-arned FW190? OF COURSE, a P51 feels like a peashooter compared to it. Read up on the difference between a P51 guns and a 190 guns. You don`t want a 190 behind you for ANY length of time.

A realistic sim is NOT about balancing the firepower of every aircraft, it`s about replicating their capabilities in reality. Of course, you`ll probably say a P51`s guns were as tough as a 190`s cannons now.

Trick is, you can out manouever a 190 to avoid his guns, get close to him (real close) and pound away. 190s have a lot of rear armour, but can`t turn.

luftluuver
01-09-2006, 03:44 AM
Weight of shot for a 3 sec burst

Dora 9 - 26lb (2 20mm, 2 13mm)
F6F - 16lb (6 0.50")

for further comparison

Tempest - 40lb (4 20mm)
Yak 3 - 20lb (1 20mm, 2 12.7mm)
Me262 - 96lb (4 30mm)
Me109E - 13lb (2 20mm, 2 7.9mm)

GH_Klingstroem
01-09-2006, 03:50 AM
yup sorry, forget to tell I was flying the p51D! the most difficult of them as far I understand... I do feel the firepower to be less than the 4 20mm cannos im used to on the fw190, but they should be as well...
I also agree that it feels like the target sometimes flies through the gaps of the 6 synched 0.50s. I compared it to the field model of the p40 which is the only US plane with unsynched guns and it makes a huge difference I feel, at least it looks like it!
Then again, As a LW flyer, i must say that it DOES hurt quite a bit to be hit by the 0.50s even though it may not be visual from the outside!! Loss of controls would in reality make a pilot to bail out but in the game not and thats maybe what makes the .50s feel like pea shooters. in the game we stay in the AC when we in real life would leave the AC very fast! Smoke, bullets holes etc etc...

One more thing, how much used was the p51 Mark III in reality. U see it quite often on 1943 "full real" servers as a choise for the reds... Just wondering if it was used often in 1943 as a fighter ???
cheers

luftluuver
01-09-2006, 04:14 AM
The first RAF base to receive Mustang IIIs was at Gravesend in Kent. The Mustang III initially equipped No. 65 Squadron in <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">late December</span> of 1943, followed by No. 19 Squadron in March of 1944. Later the Mk. III also equipped Nos 64, 65, 66, 93, 94, 112, 118, 122, 126, 129, 165, 234, 237, 241 249, 250, 260, 268, 306, 309, 315, 316, 345, 430, 441, 442, and 516 Squadrons and No. 541 Squadron of RAF Coastal Command. These units included four Polish squadrons (306, 309, 315, 316), three RCAF, and one Free French.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_9.html

Feathered_IV
01-09-2006, 05:07 AM
I've been flying the D quite a lot lately too.
I also was wondering what the fuss is about. When proper attention is payed to trim it seems to fly very well indeed. Also, the superb all-round visability is a huge advantage over the average Luftie kite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna15
01-09-2006, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
brain, u dont have wobble, for those with wobble p51 is one of the worst http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I have discussed that issue with @ B and we have came up to conclusion that he has same in game physics as I. He said that he hasn't experienced wobble in his 402m and I didn't said anything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. So ... in any case we have same game (physics).

Now if you have problems with wobble, I will send you a PM with my e-mail adress so you can send me a track (NRTK and TRK) with your P-51 handling and we may compare it to ours. Of course I will post links in IL-2 GD for others to see tracks.

Brain32
01-09-2006, 08:49 AM
I have discussed that issue with @ B and we have came up to conclusion that he has same in game physics as I.

Yes it's there, not dramatically but it is...
BTW Kuna, I was recording the fight I mentioned earlier in this thread, and wobble is much more noticeable than in our tests. It seems that wobble is stronger online, atleast in my case...

neural_dream
01-09-2006, 08:52 AM
It definitely has something to do with the computer's performance. So, it's normal to see it stronger online where there's lag.

SweetMonkeyLuv
01-09-2006, 08:57 AM
One thing to add on the matter of the armament...

Having flown LW mostly over my history, and having recently flown p47s and p51s a good bit, I find myself getting lead on target more often now. The 50 cals may not hit as hard, but they seem to have better muzzle velocity and less drop. I find them a bit easier to aim with than cannon.

Kuna15
01-09-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have discussed that issue with @ B and we have came up to conclusion that he has same in game physics as I.

Yes it's there, not dramatically but it is...
BTW Kuna, I was recording the fight I mentioned earlier in this thread, and wobble is much more noticeable than in our tests. It seems that wobble is stronger online, atleast in my case... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Send me a track on mail. Or just the part where the problem is most visible.

HayateAce
01-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Wow, some blues saying the P51 is "just fine." Very interesting indeed. Hmmm, let's see. It was an outstanding fighter plane in real life, yet is some kind of nothing underperformer in oleg-land. The TRUTH is the P51 is said to be, OVER and OVER and OVER, a dream to fly...much easier to learn to fight in than a P38. Yet, in olegWorld the sight of P51s in the air is quite rare.

Gee, what to believe. Oleg or real world accounts...............golly that's a tuff one Beaver.

http://www.geocities.com/alcus2/beaverhere4.jpeg

robban75
01-09-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Wow, some blues saying the P51 is "just fine." Very interesting indeed. Hmmm, let's see. It was an outstanding fighter plane in real life, yet is some kind of nothing underperformer in oleg-land. The TRUTH is the P51 is said to be, OVER and OVER and OVER, a dream to fly...much easier to learn to fight in than a P38. Yet, in olegWorld the sight of P51s in the air is quite rare.

The P-51 is an outstanding fighter in the game! It's very fast, it turns well, has a good roll rate and its dive and zooming abilities is amongst the best in-game, if not THE best!

Hristo_
01-09-2006, 11:19 AM
This one is SAID to be a dream to fly as well. Over and over and over...

http://marc.smartelectronix.com/magic-carpet.gif

But flight test data is very scarce http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Brain32
01-09-2006, 11:26 AM
You really don't know what are you talking about do you, I know that no words, tracks or anything can make a troll stop trolling...
Anyway, P51 is a dream to fly, it's caracteristics are very rewarding, but like in any plane you can get kills just by plain fact that you are flying a good plane...
Yes the wobbles are here even I noticed them, but if a FW flyer can learn to compasete them in one sortie and get 2kills(+1 stolen) then I think this issue shouldn't be a show stopper to a deticated or frequent P51 flyer...

EDIT: You guys are really fast http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, my post is directed to HayateAce...

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 12:02 PM
HayateNoob posts like anyone who has been brought up on John Wayne

what else can you expect from someone who defends the way LaGGs are in this game

Kwiatos
01-09-2006, 12:07 PM
P-51 dream to fly ? Maby in your dream but definetly not in these game...

Kuna15
01-09-2006, 12:17 PM
Here it is ... Brain despatches two Fockes (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/online/402__brainp51d_2xFW-190kills.zip) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Problems are clearly visible on around 10 min of track or so, when he attacked Codex in his FW-190D. Especially when Codex tries to out scissor him and Brain is compensating on him.

robban75
01-09-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
P-51 dream to fly ? Maby in your dream but definetly not in these game...

Naturally, flying a REAL Mustang must be a much more dreamlike experience than flying a simulated one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Viper2005_
01-09-2006, 01:05 PM
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html

Take the P-51D (V-1650-7) up to 20,000-25,000 feet where it belongs and you'll find that it really is a dream to fly.

If you want to fly higher use either P-51B (V-1650-3) or a Spitfire H.F. Mk. IX .

If you want to fly lower, use a Mustang III, but don't fly too much lower, as it still gives its best performance at higher altitudes than most people think.

NB, IRL the Mustang III was fitted with both the V-1650-3 and the V-1650-7; only the latter could be uprated to +25 psi boost. +25 psi boost ~ 80" Hg.

p1ngu666
01-09-2006, 01:08 PM
p51 is ok to fly apart from the wobble, but if u push it too far (very easy todo) then it bites. hard.

ive noticed the wobble more online too. flew the vc last night and that was alarmingly unstable

GH_Klingstroem
01-09-2006, 01:10 PM
Kwiatos and Hayateace u guys must get some practice if you find the p51 with 25% and 50% fuel difficult to fly!!!
Now go and practice and dont come back till you have changed your opinion!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

robban75
01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Here it is ... Brain despatches two Fockes (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/online/402__brainp51d_2xFW-190kills.zip) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Problems are clearly visible on around 10 min of track or so, when he attacked Codex in his FW-190D. Especially when Codex tries to out scissor him and Brain is compensating on him.

Great track! Brain shows the lethality of the Mustang against(what I believe to be) the Luftwaffes best fighter.

What to complain about, really? It's a killer.

WOLFMondo
01-09-2006, 01:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Case closed!

The P51's are not nerfed, just some people need to learn to fly! Wow. Simple isn't it.

HayateAce
01-09-2006, 02:14 PM
Neato, surrounded by aerodynamicists.

http://www.foxtrotuniform.com/images/logo.png

Bearcat99
01-09-2006, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by drose01:
But what do you FW pilots have to say about the FIREPOWER issue???

A Mustang feels like a peashooter compared to a 190 (or almost any cannon-equipped/non-US aircraft).

The 50s are fine... just set your convergence to 175-300max meters.. which translates into roughly 191-328max yards... Beyond that and you are wasting ammo when you factor in gravity, speed and all those other factors. Actually IMO 300m is too much.. I have my cannon to 300 and my mgs to 250.. If you hit within or close to convergence you can do some damage. The next time you are in a QM... and shooting pause the sim while shooting and go to the enemy view and look at your tracers... or better yet put it in arcade mode and see where your shots are going. If you hit it will do damage. Dont go by online performance either..

SlickStick
01-09-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Dont go by online performance either..

Ain't that the truth. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

arjisme
01-10-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Here it is ... Brain despatches two Fockes (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/online/402__brainp51d_2xFW-190kills.zip) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Problems are clearly visible on around 10 min of track or so, when he attacked Codex in his FW-190D. Especially when Codex tries to out scissor him and Brain is compensating on him. I watched this track and saw the wobbles you are talking about. Brain pointed out that he was loaded with 75% fuel at the time. Doesn't that make a difference in the P-51? With that much fuel, the COG is much further back, right? I haven't tested this myself, but are the wobbles much more controllable with less fuel in this plane?

Kwiatos
01-10-2006, 03:18 PM
P-51 wobbling not metter 100%, 50% 25% or 0% fuel. These stupid springing (vertical and horizontal) casue that these plane is unseless in these game. These plane fly but cant fight.
I prefer P-51 from 3.04. The same poor handling/turn at slow speed but no stupid wobbling. The same P-47 - in 3.04 no wobbling and have acurate high speed roll rate and 0,50 cal effectvitiy.

Now Dora 9 is the King.

Kuna15
01-10-2006, 03:19 PM
@ ar****e aircraft handling in general should be noticeable better. And aircraft performance too (less weight).

Anyway here is track with P-51C (loaded with 25% fuel).p51c_vs_2xki84 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/402__kunap51c_vs_2xki84.zip)
After I shot down first "Frank", select external view on another Ki-84 running away. Then press your button to lock nearest airborne enemy; that would be me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Zoom up on max. level, I should be close on his dead 6. Now observe carefully my nose as it dances waltz of his own while I gun down the target. I think it is best viewed that way.

But to be honest this isn't the case only with P-51 (this is just the thread about P-51's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

robban75
01-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
But to be honest this isn't the case only with P-51 (this is just the thread about P-51's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

Excactly. All planes wobble. Some more some less. Also, planes appear to behave differently on different computers. The D-9 wobbles just as much as the P-51 on my 'puter. Same with the Spitfire. The Bf 109's are very stable in comparison.

StellarRat
01-10-2006, 06:03 PM
All planes do wobble. In real life they wobble a lot more than in the game, so get over it (and yes, I have flown a real plane.) A plane that doesn't wobble at all is MORE unrealistic than one that does.

Professor_06
01-10-2006, 09:22 PM
Wrong! Airplanes in real life do not wobble. LOL. They have adverse yaw, experience turbulance, buffet, sideslip, etc. But they don't "wobble". Wobble is not an aviation term, its a 4.02 patch term. Two things cause "wobble in this "game". (1) The CoG on most planes is off. This causes exagerated adverse yaw during roll. (I think the Devs built in a funky CoG to simulate torque affect)IMO. (2)Input settings for yaw seem to be dependant on input device and computer. This means everyone has different problems with adverse yaw and yaw stability. Welly, if you are flying a wobbly plane, maybe you should have your mechanic look at it. Or.. Maybe buy more life insurance? Good luck

StellarRat
01-10-2006, 11:51 PM
Yes, "wobble" was a bad term for it. I should have said "tend to bounce around". I was just translating into simple terms. Maybe I shouldn't have assumed that the "wobble" being described is the same thing, but I believe it is.

potzblitz
01-11-2006, 02:58 PM
Trick is, you can out manouever a 190 to avoid his guns, get close to him (real close) and pound away. 190s have a lot of rear armour, but can`t turn.

a p-51 cant turn at all...at least if you compare to a 109g. p-51 bleed energy quickly if he tries to turn.

here you can see an interview of a p-51 pilot
http://www.forumtroll.net/movies/EAA_Interviews.wmv

gx-warspite
01-11-2006, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by drose01:
But what do you FW pilots have to say about the FIREPOWER issue???

A Mustang feels like a peashooter compared to a 190 (or almost any cannon-equipped/non-US aircraft).
What is there to say? It obviously doesn't have the firepower of a 190. I don't see why this comes as any surprise, since it didn't have that firepower in real life either. There's a very good reason why the USAF abandoned .50 caliber armament - it's insufficient. Even with the relative fragility of jet aircraft, heavy machine guns don't provide the necessary firepower.

I don't hold Oleg accountable to the fact that I'd lose a turn-fight with a Spit when in a 190 and I don't see why you're complaining to him that P-51s don't have the same firepower as 190s. You want to go complain to someone? Go complain to North American and the USAAF.

Incidentally, as someone who alternates almost exclusively between 190s and P-51s, I don't think the disparity is that great, especially not since the latest patch with the increased rate of fire.