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mucker
10-23-2004, 02:33 AM
Get a life PF Whiners! If the product is a liitle rough right now, deal with it. We all know how great the IL2 engine is and programming it for an entirely different theater is a monumental task.

Oleg has never failed us and has produced a masterpiece with FB/AEP. The same will hold true with PF but it may take some time. I have spent less than $100 on the IL2 series, incredible bang for buck, beyond my wildest expectations, IMO absolutely no-one has a legit beef about quality per dollar...it stands alone at the top in flight simming. I know passions run high in this forum, but lets inject a little perspective into this situation........if we bite the hand that feeds us, the hand may just decide to dissappear.....

m

VFA-195 Snacky
10-23-2004, 02:37 AM
lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Ruy Horta
10-23-2004, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
if we bite the hand that feeds us, the hand may just decide to dissappear..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I am happy with the whole FB/AEP/PF experience. PF needs to evolve and time will tell if they'll keep their word, but lets not turn things around.

WE feed their mouths, they do not feed mine.

Now I will tell you my fear. PF as released might be just that little teeny bit lacking that it will tempt people to opt for an alternative to buying the full game (as in downloading a pirate copy).

Some people may decide NOT to feed said mouth anymore.

I bought my copy, its been installed, I installed the no cd-patch and its 100% the same as the leaked copy (which I tested with a clear contience having pre-ordered my copy months ago, period). Judging on my own feelings, I am certain some people would have second thoughts having experienced both.

I believe in supporting the continued development of this series, and I agree that all in all it is GREAT bang for the Buck.

But lets not turn things around and lets not pretend that PF can stand alone and be described as a finished product.

I am overal positive, as long as we'll see some improvements and as long as those basic improvements aren't packaged in another commercial product.

sapre
10-23-2004, 03:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
if we bite the hand that feeds us, the hand may just decide to dissappear..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I am happy with the whole FB/AEP/PF experience. PF needs to evolve and time will tell if they'll keep their word, but lets not turn things around.

WE feed their mouths, they do not feed mine.

Now I will tell you my fear. PF as released might be just that little teeny bit lacking that it will tempt people to opt for an alternative to buying the full game (as in downloading a pirate copy).

Some people may decide NOT to feed said mouth anymore.

I bought my copy, its been installed, I installed the no cd-patch and its 100% the same as the leaked copy (which I tested with a clear contience having pre-ordered my copy months ago, period). Judging on my own feelings, I am certain some people would have second thoughts having experienced both.

I believe in supporting the continued development of this series, and I agree that all in all it is GREAT bang for the Buck.

But lets not turn things around and lets not pretend that PF can stand alone and be described as a finished product.

I am overal positive, as long as we'll see some improvements and as long as those basic improvements aren't packaged in another commercial product. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You got 1 thing wrong.
both 1C maddox ANd user feed their mouth each other.
neither stops, it'll be a disaster.

mucker
10-23-2004, 04:02 AM
Hey Ruy, unless you have the ability to write great flight sims, they certainly do feed you. How else would you fly on a computer. Someone has to feed you.

The way I look at it is a one on one relationship. Me and the flight sim developers. I do not have the ability to create a program such as IL2. If I went to an independent group of programmers and said "Hey, I'd like for you to write me a flight simulator of top notch caliber and I want to pay only $40 for it" and they agreed, I'd be laughing hard and thought I was ripping them off!

Bottom line is nobody can seriously complain about anything. If you do, you are taking this game way too seriously.....I would much rather support a great product and keep things rolling along than risk whining it all away........

If I were Oleg, just for the entertainment value alone, I would give all you whiners the bird, ditch flight sim programming for good and go develope a great FPS where I could make alot more money, and laugh when everyone was crying for my return......

m

Ruy Horta
10-23-2004, 05:26 AM
look at it the other way round, I do not need Maddox to live, since I make a living working for another slavemaster, hence they do not feed me period.

Do I like what they offer, I must because I am still buying, but the relation is clear. They do not feed me in any manner. If PF or similar products are not released by Maddox, they'll be released by another, if there is a market there is a seller.

I don't doubt Maddox or Luthier's love for the subject, it generally shows, but having watched game development during the last decade has opened my eyes to reality.

Regardless of the amount of whining, if PF sells well, we see further development, if it doesn't...it dies, and no amount of kissing developers **** can change that.

Simple logic.

Now we are back to square one, WE FEED THEM, our MONEY is the means by which we support PF development and growth, not our words.

I put my money where my mouth is and so far it is good value for money, but I am hoping that Maddox & Co will deliver on their word WITHIN the frame work of the original release (and that's an issue where they did not always delier in the past - see the IL2 development history).

But certainly, this series is a benchmark, I cannot and won't argue with that, and Maddox & Co enjoy my full respect, although my words may always convey that.

sapre
10-23-2004, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
look at it the other way round, I do not need Maddox to live, since I make a living working for another slavemaster, hence they do not feed me period.

Do I like what they offer, I must because I am still buying, but the relation is clear. They do not feed me in any manner. If PF or similar products are not released by Maddox, they'll be released by another, if there is a market there is a seller.

I don't doubt Maddox or Luthier's love for the subject, it generally shows, but having watched game development during the last decade has opened my eyes to reality.

Regardless of the amount of whining, if PF sells well, we see further development, if it doesn't...it dies, and no amount of kissing developers **** can change that.

Simple logic.

Now we are back to square one, WE FEED THEM, our MONEY is the means by which we support PF development and growth, not our words.

I put my money where my mouth is and so far it is good value for money, but I am hoping that Maddox & Co will deliver on their word WITHIN the frame work of the original release (and that's an issue where they did not always delier in the past - see the IL2 development history).

But certainly, this series is a benchmark, I cannot and won't argue with that, and Maddox & Co enjoy my full respect, although my words may always convey that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maddox feeds you with greatest WW2 flight sim, And the you feeds Maddox with money.
Plainly simple. Why can't you accept this simple fact?
And if your saying you can live without IL2, i suggest you to stop playing it immidiatly.
Besides, I don't care at all even if you loose your interest in aviation, but if Oleg does, it somewhat concerns me.

Ruy Horta
10-23-2004, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
And if your saying you can live without IL2, i suggest you to stop playing it immidiatly.

Besides, I don't care at all even if you loose your interest in aviation, but if Oleg does, it somewhat concerns me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, my friend, if all things in life were just so simple. I can live without a lot of things ranging from plain things like cookies to fine wine and even sex, but that doesn't mean that I don't to occasionally enjoy all those things.

And I enjoy PF or more precisely I enjoy FB+AEP+PF.

As for your final statement, that's quite a different issue. You don't care about my opinion, and the same holds true the other way round, but that is the life of a forum.

I'll end this on my part, since we cannot agree on this issue anyway, and we don't care either what eithet thinks, but then again I didn't post an anti-whine post, now did I...

NegativeGee
10-23-2004, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Ah, my friend, if all things in life were just so simple. I can live without a lot of things ranging from plain things like cookies to fine wine and even sex, but that doesn't mean that I don't to occasionally enjoy all those things.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You almost had me believing you until I read that sentence http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Seriously though, I disagree with your rating of the Maddox Games team. There is an awful lot of expertise from the aerospace industry there, along with some other great professional talent that has added to the IL-2 series. I don't think they are the sort of group that gets together on a project like this often at all.

I'm just glad Oleg decided to give up selling cars and take a risk on his game- without which we would be stuck in CFS hell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Eraser_tr
10-23-2004, 08:12 AM
Whiners, just ask yourselves:Are you having fun playing PF? if you answer yes, stop whining and play.

sapre
10-23-2004, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
And if your saying you can live without IL2, i suggest you to stop playing it immidiatly.

Besides, I don't care at all even if you loose your interest in aviation, but if Oleg does, it somewhat concerns me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, my friend, if all things in life were just so simple. I can live without a lot of things ranging from plain things like cookies to fine wine and even sex, but that doesn't mean that I don't to occasionally enjoy all those things.

And I enjoy PF or more precisely I enjoy FB+AEP+PF.

As for your final statement, that's quite a different issue. You don't care about my opinion, and the same holds true the other way round, but that is the life of a forum.

I'll end this on my part, since we cannot agree on this issue anyway, and we don't care either what eithet thinks, but then again I didn't post an anti-whine post, now did I... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your getting me wrong.
I didn't say I don't care what your opinion is, I said I don't care even if you loose your interest in aviation or, more prescise tosay, loose your interest in IL2.
Theres a big diffarence in there.
As a group, user has a power and it is equal against the developer, but as a individual, user has almost no power.
Besides, even if you stop playing IL2 now, you fed Maddox allready http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JonHal
10-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Hmmm.. Interesting post. So the fact that we spend our hard earned money on a product doesn't give us the right to compain about certain aspects we dislike? do you feel this way about a resturant that serves you a great dinner but a moldy roll? How dare you complain! that chef could be off making a lot more money someplace else! You should just be thankful he tried!
That kind of logic doesn't cut it in free enterprise. The IL-2 Team made us a great Pacific Theatre Sim. Please don't paint them as some kind of holy martyr. I work for a non-profit for children. I could make a ton more money in another field but I choose to work with kids. In your world those kids better not ever complain if I offer them sub-standard service! How day they bite the hand that feeds them!

As I've already posted I'm very pleased with this game. It's a great game. But that doesn't mean there is room for improvement. I've paid my money I can complain and compliment all I want. If you don't like it don't read the post. To paraphrases Obi-Wan who is Whinier, the Whiner or the Whiner who whines about him?

Regards, Jon


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
Get a life PF Whiners! If the product is a liitle rough right now, deal with it. We all know how great the IL2 engine is and programming it for an entirely different theater is a monumental task.

Oleg has never failed us and has produced a masterpiece with FB/AEP. The same will hold true with PF but it may take some time. I have spent less than $100 on the IL2 series, incredible bang for buck, beyond my wildest expectations, IMO absolutely no-one has a legit beef about quality per dollar...it stands alone at the top in flight simming. I know passions run high in this forum, but lets inject a little perspective into this situation........if we bite the hand that feeds us, the hand may just decide to dissappear.....

m <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

unseen84
10-23-2004, 10:24 AM
I agree with everything JonHal said. IMO, those who whine about whiners are more annoying than the whiners themselves. Some of these anti-whiners seem to feel that almost every bad thing anybody says about PF is a whine. Saying "all the american planes are overmodeled" is a whine. Saying that this game is not complete without flyable, carrier-based torpedo bombers is, IMO, a legitimate complaint.

mucker
10-23-2004, 11:14 AM
Well Jon, if you get a bad meal at a resturaunt, you simply have the option go to the myriad of others, you know choice. Where are you going to go to get quality flight simming? So you think that $40 earns you the right to whine whenever you feel? If you buy a hard back book, a CD, blah blah.....and it ends up to be not what you expected, the author is not going to change the book or the musician re-issue the CD, you simply accept the fact, you deal with it. You should be very lucky Oleg and crew listen to all the **** and work there butts off to correct issues, they certainly don't have to...

m

Stiglr
10-23-2004, 11:24 AM
I find it amusing that those who dare to mention the mistakes and problems of the sim (and over the life of the franchise the problems and mistakes have been many and egregious) are deemed to be "taking it too seriously".

{channeling Steve Martin}
Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse US for wanting quality.

Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse us for having learned a little something about history and the aircraft and can tell poor modeling when we spot it.

1C and Ubi are putting their product out in public and are earning money by doing so. So they can stand a little public scrutiny.

I could complain that some of the 1C fanbois are too easily satisfied with a few eye candy effects, and too willing to "just accept" poor quality, but I'll hold off on that...

Eraser_tr
10-23-2004, 12:00 PM
It's one thing to have criticisms about a game and a whole other thing to have 10 threads complaining about something. Be more civil about it, if work I've done was being treated like how some are talking about relatively minor things, I'd be very discouraged to do any more for those people.

mucker
10-23-2004, 12:01 PM
Well said Eraser!

Oleg fanboy? You bet I am, I enjoy his work immensely and for the $100 or so I've spent over 4 years on IL2 software, I am completely satisfied with what I have received. This is a game of incredible depth, no other has held my interest for this long, but it is just that....A GAME. I have no complaints and also, I actually have a life outside of FB (imagine that). I have a good laugh at all of the armchair pilots who don't know jack, you know, the "so called experts" who make this game their life and feel that a`$40 purchase earns them a lifetime pass of whining.....so, whine away whiney boys...I'll play the game, have fun, most of all, I'll put it in proper perspective...

By the way Oleg and Team....Great Work!!!!!

m

Ruy Horta
10-23-2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
Well said Eraser!

Oleg fanboy? You bet I am, I enjoy his work immensely and for the $100 or so I've spent over 4 years on IL2 software, I am completely satisfied with what I have received. This is a game of incredible depth, no other has held my interest for this long, but it is just that....A GAME. I have no complaints and also, I actually have a life outside of FB (imagine that). I have a good laugh at all of the armchair pilots who don't know jack, you know, the "so called experts" who make this game their life and feel that a`$40 purchase earns them a lifetime pass of whining.....so, whine away whiney boys...I'll play the game, have fun, most of all, I'll put it in proper perspective...m <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why are you continuing to argue with those who have no life?

Bearcat99
10-23-2004, 05:31 PM
The bottom line for some of you is this..... relax.. enjoy the sim. In case you dont know.....1C stands behind thier products. Coming from ANY other sim venue I understand that this is a totally new and foreign concept to many. It was to me when I first bought IL2... but it is absolutely true. So enjoy the sim... visit the forums and wait for that patch that we know is coming. The team put together from all reports a world class product so take into considertation with whom you are dealing and relax.

BUckaroo13
10-23-2004, 09:09 PM
Actually Friend, If I bought a book that purported to be a factual histroy book and said the Nazis won world War 2 I'd complain about it! You have heard of the concepts on Book Critics, Food Critics and Movie Critics right?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
Well Jon, if you get a bad meal at a resturaunt, you simply have the option go to the myriad of others, you know choice. Where are you going to go to get quality flight simming? So you think that $40 earns you the right to whine whenever you feel? If you buy a hard back book, a CD, blah blah.....and it ends up to be not what you expected, the author is not going to change the book or the musician re-issue the CD, you simply accept the fact, you deal with it. You should be very lucky Oleg and crew listen to all the **** and work there butts off to correct issues, they certainly don't have to...

m <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chuck_Older
10-23-2004, 09:13 PM
Just gonna say one thing

There's two types of criticism. Slinging names around isn't going to change the fact that one of them is constructive

mucker
10-23-2004, 09:14 PM
I haven't heard Buckaroo, but, on something as serious as that it would be criminal not to complain....

m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PlimPlam
10-23-2004, 09:22 PM
I'd whine but I dont have it yet. Which is slowly starting to annoy me a bit as each day passes.

Which makes me a game-not-having whiner I guess!

Or woot I whined about the game *cough* in a round about sort of way.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Philipscdrw
10-23-2004, 09:56 PM
Mucker, do you realise you have started a thread to whine about people who start threads to whine?

BM357_Raven
10-23-2004, 10:39 PM
mucker wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oleg has never failed us and has produced a masterpiece with FB/AEP <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% CORRECT!

Ruy Horta
10-24-2004, 02:59 AM
I wonder how many of those who complaint about the whiners actually HAVE PF on their HDD and tested it?

Yes, like I wrote a couple of times before FB+AEP+PF is an epic flightsim, groundbreaking and a benchmark for some time to come...BUT, and there is always a but.

For instance PF is buggy, you cannot fly a normal USMC campaign for instance, and I wonder how many jughead wannabees (or have beens) will like to experience that.

That's just an example, there are more odds and ends that must be called bugs, but those will be covered in the usual patches, indeed Ubi can be trusted to support the product to that extend.

Now a little bit different are the lacking campaigns, maps and objects. SOME of the might be included in future patches, but chances are most of those promised features will see the light of day only in a future add on.

Now, MAYBE 1C wants to support the product, but what if sales are less then rosey, what if Ubi decides to cut their losses and drop continued support, what if Maddox needs to choose between his other projects (like BoB and also other games, like Wartime Commander or Soldiers Heroes of the Second World War).

Nothing is fixed, there is no patch until you ready for download and their is no add on until you see one on the shelves.

The bugs I can handle, they are relativly minor.

The current "odd" campaign setup can be tweaked.

A missing CBI element I find less acceptable, since the chances are very likely they will NOT appear in a free patch, although PF was originally advertised as being more than Pacific campaign.

Its clear that cuts were made within the ship list, and being for much of the part of Naval content, I find them lacking in the game (US Battleships, IJN Battleships, little choice in IJN CV, no smaller IJN CVs - the substitutes are IMHO offending, since we don't need a substitute name to put in a substitute - as in KGV is modeled 3-4x under different names in the object list). If you look critically at the ship list, it might be curtailed by about 1/3.

What FB+AEP+PF does well, it does extremely well and kudos to the developers for having captured much of the essence of aerial warfare (at least for the virtual warrior to enjoy).

I agree we must relax, for the time being, but there are no guarantees as some of you (up to the moderator) seem to believe or propagate.

BOTTOMLINE, there was a statement that at least part of the "missing content" would be offered for download upon release and said release has been put into effect since the middle of the week.

It looks like we are already shifting from guarantees, are we not?

BTW...must applaud the gunflare shrinkage, which after being impossible to change, was finally changed for the better. If you want just one good reason to get PF next to your FB+AEP set its that.