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Feathered_IV
08-03-2006, 09:09 AM
I've always been fascinated with these things, but good images have always been so had to come by. Until now anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.gennadich.com/images/409_pic_multi.jpg

http://www.gennadich.com/images/408_pic_multi.jpg

Feathered_IV
08-03-2006, 09:09 AM
I've always been fascinated with these things, but good images have always been so had to come by. Until now anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.gennadich.com/images/409_pic_multi.jpg

http://www.gennadich.com/images/408_pic_multi.jpg

Ernst_Rohr
08-03-2006, 09:13 AM
This stuff is looking sooooo good. Been years since a good WWI sim has been out.

I am really looking forward to this sim!

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-03-2006, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
This stuff is looking sooooo good. Been years since a good WWI sim has been out.

I am really looking forward to this sim! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mirror those same sentiments. I'm really looking forward to cruising around in an Eindecker...in April. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


TB

Jester_159th
08-03-2006, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
This stuff is looking sooooo good. Been years since a good WWI sim has been out.

I am really looking forward to this sim! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mirror those same sentiments. I'm really looking forward to cruising around in an Eindecker...in April. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


TB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hate to disappoint you, but there's no Eindekers from what I've seen. There's rumours of earlier models (including your Eindeker I'd expect) at a later date, but nothing definate.

F19_Olli72
08-03-2006, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jester_159th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
This stuff is looking sooooo good. Been years since a good WWI sim has been out.

I am really looking forward to this sim! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mirror those same sentiments. I'm really looking forward to cruising around in an Eindecker...in April. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


TB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hate to disappoint you, but there's no Eindekers from what I've seen. There's rumours of earlier models (including your Eindeker I'd expect) at a later date, but nothing definate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, since the sim focuses on 1916 - 1918, but hey....theres always the very cool Junkers D.I http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif which was put in service (although limited) in 1918, if only the devs would/could model it that is...:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww1/jud1-i.jpg

Jester_159th
08-03-2006, 04:39 PM
Well we've been without a good WWI sim for a long...LONG time so I can live quite happilly with the time period they've chosen.

And with the talk of possible expansions (eg the earlier years I mentioned) I'm harbouring a distinct feeling of cautious optimism about GT's project (which isn't like me at all...I'm usually a confirmed pessimist!!!)

Personally I'd love to see a flyable Fe.8 (and other "pusher" types)...... I think that might make me a masochist as well as a pessimist!!

Bo_Nidle
08-03-2006, 04:47 PM
Really looking forwards to this one!

I even found an out of print book called "Warbirds:Military aircraft of the First World War" published by MacDonald and James in 1973 and purchased it in the hope that you can skin these aircraft too.

From the pictures on the website this is going to be something special. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ElAurens
08-03-2006, 04:55 PM
Ummm, not to rain on the parade, but where are they getting viable information on flight models?

And please don't point me to some dubious web site. I mean real flight test info.

Jester_159th
08-03-2006, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Ummm, not to rain on the parade, but where are they getting viable information on flight models?

And please don't point me to some dubious web site. I mean real flight test info. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you only have a single record to play when this project is brought up?

As for "dubious" websites: Did you bother to register at the aerodrome and actually ASK some questions as I suggested in a previous thread?

ElAurens
08-03-2006, 06:11 PM
Jester, I understand your enthusiasm for this product, please understand that I share the desire for a quality WW1 flight sim. That said, my question still stands. Where is the data coming from? There is no comprehensive test data for any of these aircraft, none. Aircraft design and testing was in it's infancy, accurate instrumentation simply did not exist. All we have are pilot reports, hearsay, and perhaps some manufacturer's basic performance data. In short the kinds of things that are regularly laughed off these boards.

In summation my question is totally valid and needs to be addressed by the producers of this sim, and asked more by the potential customers of this product.

Feathered_IV
08-03-2006, 06:19 PM
ElAurens, I have to agree with you that much of the FM for individual aircraft will necessarily be speculation. I had reservations about the sim initially due to this. I guess now though, I see it more as the price to pay to get a new WWI sim at all. Maybe it's better to consider it an aesthetic simulation, rather than a technical one.

ElAurens
08-03-2006, 06:29 PM
I agree with you Feathered, I'm sure it will be fun, and look great, but the FM wars will be ugly.

Time will tell.

Cheers.

PikeBishop
08-04-2006, 02:39 AM
Dear All,

I say again that which I have often said in the past.......all the data can be calculated as far as FM's are concerned. Weights and measurements are available even for these early aeroplanes. Maximum speeds, minimum speeds, ceiling and climb rates also. All data can be calculated from just these few bits of info. (climb rates not really needed). The only things that are probably not calculable are rates of roll and general reponse and handling. For those things you have to rely on anecdotal evidence....as reliable as possible. Oleg has been able to reproduce all these things in IL-2 and I'm sure he will be of service to the GT team if needed.
Best regards,
SLP

SeaFireLIV
08-04-2006, 04:19 AM
These must be the ultimate `****` planes!

They remind me of cardboard boxes with a rubber-band engines attached... and highly unsafe too. Still wouldn`t mind giving it a run.

ElAurens
08-04-2006, 05:28 AM
OK, calculate for me the roll rate of an SE5a.

Or the turn time of an Albatross III.

BTW, whats the VNE of an Ansaldo?

You cannot calculate these things. They can only be measured.

Why is this so hard to accept?

PikeBishop
08-04-2006, 06:05 AM
OK, roll rates cannot be calculated accurately as I said.
The turn time of a DIII you need to know how fast he is going and how much 'g' he is pulling. Let us say that he is pulling max 'g' for the speed he is going. If he is travelling twice his stall speed he can pull a 'g' max of 4'g' instantaneous. From this one can calculate the radius of the turn and so the time it takes to complete. But he will lose speed at that 'g' because of the drag so he either dives to maintain his speed or slackens off. All the drag can be calculated the thrust and so on.
The VNE of an ansaldo would have to be compared to similar aircraft which we did know the VNE because this is more a structural item. I suppose a computer model could also be constructed looking at the plans and construction but all in all it would be pretty close and probably not much over 200mph. The DVII constructed for the film "the blue max" had a VNE of 150mph but this was probably on the safe side and again in reality it would be in the region of 200mph. In the game though I dont suppose many would try to reach these speeds because most of the fights would be at low altitude since much height is lost during manoeuvers and ceilings were not that great.
Best regards,
SLP

PikeBishop
08-04-2006, 06:15 AM
If you want to calculate TERMINAL dive speed, this can quite easily be done since at that speed the drag would equal the mass plus the thrust plus the acceleration due to gravity taking into account the angle of decent.
regards,
SLP

PikeBishop
08-04-2006, 06:17 AM
Remember that at max speed the thrust equals the drag

Jester_159th
08-04-2006, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Jester, I understand your enthusiasm for this product, please understand that I share the desire for a quality WW1 flight sim. That said, my question still stands. Where is the data coming from? There is no comprehensive test data for any of these aircraft, none. Aircraft design and testing was in it's infancy, accurate instrumentation simply did not exist. All we have are pilot reports, hearsay, and perhaps some manufacturer's basic performance data. In short the kinds of things that are regularly laughed off these boards.

In summation my question is totally valid and needs to be addressed by the producers of this sim, and asked more by the potential customers of this product. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not debating the validity of your question (or concerns relating to it). I agree with you, for any product claiming to be a simulation the highest possible level of fidelity is important in the extreme.

However, in a previous post about this project you raised the same issue. I directed you to a website and in a follow up post suggested you register on their forums and ask some questions to find out HOW valid your contention regarding the lack of information could be. You appear to have simply shrugged the site off without investigating...even after I told you that some of the contributors on that site's forum are respected aeronautical historians, many of whom have work published and accepted as being accurate.

IF the information you're concerned about is available, either someone on that forum will know about it, have access to it, or will know of someone who should.

Or an even simpler solution, have you registered on GT's forums and raised your concerns there?

If it's not available, then your concerns are not only valid, they're confirmed and need to be addressed if at all possible. At the moment though, you're only presenting some unsubstantiated concerns as being fact.

Also, regarding measuring: Are you aware that there are currently ACCURATE, flying replicas of quite a few of the flyable models GT are proposing to model? There is even a video recently posted on this forum of a Camel flying. There are also flying replicas of the Fokker DR1 and DVII. I believe there's an Albatros DV out there as well. So it may not be perfect, and I've no idea if it's actually been done, but it is possible to get the measurements you mentioned for some (if not all) of the models in this project.