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View Full Version : .50 BMG is not so bad in game, despite reputation.



mortoma
02-12-2008, 11:28 AM
I have been flying a huge bunch of .50 cal. armed planes lately and and have not had too much trouble getting kills with these machine guns. Was flying a Corsair the other day and a Zero was in a tight bank in front of me from the left to the right. It was such a high bank that I was looking at the topside of the Zero as if I were above it. I rolled to the right and gave it a bit of lead and my Mgs cut both wings off. I was in a Mustang III and took on six JU-88s by myself because my AI flight mates went off to chase the FWs that were escorting them. And the Mustang III only has four .50s too but I was able to get four out of six and two of the four had wings on fire. Other two took a while to die but they died. I ran out of ammo after the four bomber kills. Off the subject for a second but I only got pinged by their gunners once, got a wing tank leak but it healed up later. Yes, it took me more hits to down the planes than if I had cannons. But shouldn't it have taken more hits to kill the planes than with cannons? I say yes!! Oh, and I have my convergence set at only 200 meters to suit my combat methods. By the way, I seldom have much trouble killing planes with the Italian guns either. And that includes heavily armoured aircraft like LaGGs and such.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Damage modeling is somewhat arbitrary, really, so a certain amount of tweaking is OK. Course the AP value of the "API" on the 50s is about nil (I'm not talking about "feel" here, but fact, a number which is like the german mine round, not like the other AP values for other guns)

JG53Frankyboy
02-12-2008, 11:32 AM
it sounds you make these impressions offline ?

and yes, offline the MGs are working better - no package loss , longer hitting time as the AI is not so "nervous" in its flying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but online , they normaly lack the kind of instant kill ability in the typical online "snap shooting" ..............

R_Target
02-12-2008, 11:35 AM
My only gripe is the odd incendiary qualities.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 11:47 AM
What incendiary qualities, lol.

The belting has little API or APIT apparently.

Monguse
02-12-2008, 11:51 AM
We should have had API belting for a very very long time. Information was sent and there is plenty of data showing its use.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 11:59 AM
To be fair, I don't think that the weapon stuff is cut and dried. The DMs are simply not accurate enough to rely on the MV, mass, etc of the rounds. The entire notion of tracking specific rounds as they do damage is only valid if the damage system has a scale size of about a bullet cross sectional area.

It clearly doesn't, so a certain amount of tweaking is required, IMO.

mortoma
02-12-2008, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
it sounds you make these impressions offline ?

and yes, offline the MGs are working better - no package loss , longer hitting time as the AI is not so "nervous" in its flying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but online , they normaly lack the kind of instant kill ability in the typical online "snap shooting" .............. That depends, AI can be squirelly when they do the roling dive with a lot of rudder and negative Gs. The AI are really hard to hit when they do that. Trouble is, they don't always do that.

And plus, sometimes online it's actualy easier because you can sneak up behind the human piloted planes whilst the AI can always "see" you. Impossible to sneak up on AI, period. The extra two or three seconds you get to pound that human opponent online before he reacts to being snuck up on in many instances gives you a victory.

mortoma
02-12-2008, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
To be fair, I don't think that the weapon stuff is cut and dried. The DMs are simply not accurate enough to rely on the MV, mass, etc of the rounds. The entire notion of tracking specific rounds as they do damage is only valid if the damage system has a scale size of about a bullet cross sectional area.

It clearly doesn't, so a certain amount of tweaking is required, IMO. Let's not get too technical. We can judge that one can shoot down other aircraft with regularity when one shoots them with .50 cals in this game we play.
And that it is more difficult to do so than when one uses cannons, as it should be. That is all that matters in this discussion.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-12-2008, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
...The DMs are simply not accurate enough to rely on the MV, mass, etc of the rounds. The entire notion of tracking specific rounds as they do damage is only valid if the damage system has a scale size of about a bullet cross sectional area...



THAT should be the final word. I've said similar things so many times and reiterate it here again regarding Damage Models.

Increasing their complexity and extensiveness in SOW is the single thing I'm most looking forward to...bar none. This will impact so many other areas that even if the FM's and weapons were left the same, people would fly it so differently, that it would still be a completely new game.

blindpugh
02-12-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
What incendiary qualities, lol.

The belting has little API or APIT apparently. watched a video other night of 50 cal. AP round fired at 13mm steel plate with another 13 mm steel plate 6 feet behind-from 600 yards AP round went straight through both steel plates-so in my opinion these 50.s in the game need a hell of a lot more work!!!

biggs222
02-12-2008, 12:58 PM
??? no API? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

wow i thought for sure they would have modeled that into the .50 i never thought to question it cause its so obvious that there should be API.

no wonder people have been complaining about the .50 for so long.

HayateAce
02-12-2008, 01:09 PM
Welcome to the world of firing dry slugs at your enemies. The funny thing is, the skilled among us red fliers are still getting decent kills. Imagine the outcry from blues if one of their weapons was supposedly not modeled up to its fullest capability....oh wait, they already cried and got it.

JtD
02-12-2008, 01:17 PM
It works well enough for me, too. Most of the time, that is. The Pacific is no real contest, though. Japanese planes seem to go down if you only point the guns at them, no need to squeeze the trigger.

I had a good time recently with the P-51B against early 44 German opposition. Sure 4x.50 don't work as nicely as the Fw's dreaded 4x20mm, but good enough for me. I even shot a wing off a bomber, didn't happen to often before. The nicest feature they have is the great range.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 01:21 PM
If the belting were changed on the .50s and they became grossly overpowerful, it would show a flaw in the DM system.

The "toughness" issue is fascinating to me. It's hard to fathom why the F6F would have an aileron toughness of 50, while the P-51 and Bf109 have 100, for example. Or why the left Stab and Vator on the F4F are 80, and the right are 100 (most all other fighters have 100 for both, and no other plane in the game has any asymmetry at all except the F4F)

I think a lot of the feeling about .50 cals has to do with lack of any visual feedback.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Not all the japanese planes are easy. Remember all the threads with documentation about how the Sally was totally FUBAR damage wise? You can only get it to burn on one side by shooting through the opposite side, and it burns no other way (somethign like that).

There were many images in arcade mode showing a zillion rounds and it flies on. The Ki-27 might have had similar issues. I do know that the Ki-21 is tougher than the A-20 based on those FM files.

JtD
02-12-2008, 01:30 PM
I know I need less 0.50 hits for to kill a late Japanese fighter than I need Japanese 20mm hits to kill a late US fighter. It's like 25 vs 40. In the PTO I usually fly the P-47 and 25 hits are dealt in a second.

There sure are issues with some DM's. Mostly, it doesn't bother me when flying, only when testing.

Tater-SW-
02-12-2008, 01:37 PM
Flying against the japanese, I'd prefer to see more fire, and less planes breaking into pieces, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JtD
02-12-2008, 01:40 PM
For the level of protection the Ki-84 had, it is very easily set on fire.

crucislancer
02-12-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
I have been flying a huge bunch of .50 cal. armed planes lately and and have not had too much trouble getting kills with these machine guns. Was flying a Corsair the other day and a Zero was in a tight bank in front of me from the left to the right. It was such a high bank that I was looking at the topside of the Zero as if I were above it. I rolled to the right and gave it a bit of lead and my Mgs cut both wings off. I was in a Mustang III and took on six JU-88s by myself because my AI flight mates went off to chase the FWs that were escorting them. And the Mustang III only has four .50s too but I was able to get four out of six and two of the four had wings on fire. Other two took a while to die but they died. I ran out of ammo after the four bomber kills. Off the subject for a second but I only got pinged by their gunners once, got a wing tank leak but it healed up later. Yes, it took me more hits to down the planes than if I had cannons. But shouldn't it have taken more hits to kill the planes than with cannons? I say yes!! Oh, and I have my convergence set at only 200 meters to suit my combat methods. By the way, I seldom have much trouble killing planes with the Italian guns either. And that includes heavily armoured aircraft like LaGGs and such.

I agree, the .50s aren't bad at all. Yup, more lead needs to be on target. That's the way it should be. I've been flying a lot of US planes offline recently, P-47D and F4U-1A mainly. I've had as many as 5 kills per mission in the P-47D offline against Fw-190s and Bf-109s, with my average being around 2/mission. Corsairs against Zekes, usually about the same. Quite a few times, I'll give them a 2 second burst, and they start going down, even though they only appear to have a fuel leak. With Zekes, I tend to de-wing them more often then anything else. The last 10 Zekes I downed all lost a wing or some tail surface that made then go in. Occasionally, I'll flame them, and rarely I'll blow them up. I nailed a 109 yesterday while he was in a climb, and he went down in flames. Another blew up.

I've been reading a lot of Allied pilot stories recently, and it seems that they all fired a 2 or 3 second burst, for the most part. That seems to work for me, and in some cases even less then that will work, if you hit them just right. That's the key right there. Yeah, more work to get kills, but more satisfaction, I think.

I can't really comment about online, as I don't play on servers that often, and it seems that I wind up in something with cannons more often then not. I do recall setting a Zeke on fire with a short burst while in a Corsair, but as like would have it 5 of his friends sent me down after him. Such is life on a dogfight server.

I'm not one to pour over the numbers to see if a gun is firing the way it should, with the right ammo and so forth. I work with what I have, and I'm happy I have it. Complaining about that kind of stuff seems counterproductive to me. No game will be perfect, especially one as complex as IL-2. The next game will be better, and then the one after that a further improvement.

Bsnakeman
02-12-2008, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
I have been flying a huge bunch of .50 cal. armed planes lately and and have not had too much trouble getting kills with these machine guns. Was flying a Corsair the other day and a Zero was in a tight bank in front of me from the left to the right. It was such a high bank that I was looking at the topside of the Zero as if I were above it. I rolled to the right and gave it a bit of lead and my Mgs cut both wings off. I was in a Mustang III and took on six JU-88s by myself because my AI flight mates went off to chase the FWs that were escorting them. And the Mustang III only has four .50s too but I was able to get four out of six and two of the four had wings on fire. Other two took a while to die but they died. I ran out of ammo after the four bomber kills. Off the subject for a second but I only got pinged by their gunners once, got a wing tank leak but it healed up later. Yes, it took me more hits to down the planes than if I had cannons. But shouldn't it have taken more hits to kill the planes than with cannons? I say yes!! Oh, and I have my convergence set at only 200 meters to suit my combat methods. By the way, I seldom have much trouble killing planes with the Italian guns either. And that includes heavily armoured aircraft like LaGGs and such.


S!

Which is your conversion settings?

Thanks,

M_Gunz
02-12-2008, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
And plus, sometimes online it's actualy easier because you can sneak up behind the human piloted planes whilst the AI can always "see" you. Impossible to sneak up on AI, period. The extra two or three seconds you get to pound that human opponent online before he reacts to being snuck up on in many instances gives you a victory.

You can't slowly crawl up on them and hang back inside 250m while lining up the perfect shot.

If you come in with high delta-V then you will find that you have a few seconds to get off
shots before the AI tries anything. Hit, exit, return with speed advantage and repeat.
I've crippled AI 109's with early VVS planes, Yak and MiG that way on the first pass.
Those planes don't have much guns or ammo.

I see a lot of "what the plane can't do" posts when really they should be saying "what I
can't do with the plane".

As long as you fly online with people who are much over 100ms ping then you have to accept
oddities. You want the best then have a LAN party. It would be insane to ask for tweaks
to the game based on lag since that's not always the same, who loses out is not by gun or
ping or nationality. If you can't stand the .50's online then don't @#$%-ing fly them.

M_Gunz
02-12-2008, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
What incendiary qualities, lol.

The belting has little API or APIT apparently. watched a video other night of 50 cal. AP round fired at 13mm steel plate with another 13 mm steel plate 6 feet behind-from 600 yards AP round went straight through both steel plates-so in my opinion these 50.s in the game need a hell of a lot more work!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Steel plate" -- the variance that can be described right there is wide, mild steel to armor
with differences in just armor plate, not all armor plate is equal.

M_Gunz
02-12-2008, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Bsnakeman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Oh, and I have my convergence set at only 200 meters to suit my combat methods.

Which is your conversion settings?

Thanks, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Friendly_flyer
02-13-2008, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The Ki-27 might have had similar issues. I do know that the Ki-21 is tougher than the A-20 based on those FM files.

I have flown quite a few missio0ns against them on the Buffalo. They are quite possible to shoot down with .50ies, but they won't burn.

blindpugh
02-14-2008, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
What incendiary qualities, lol.

The belting has little API or APIT apparently. watched a video other night of 50 cal. AP round fired at 13mm steel plate with another 13 mm steel plate 6 feet behind-from 600 yards AP round went straight through both steel plates-so in my opinion these 50.s in the game need a hell of a lot more work!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Steel plate" -- the variance that can be described right there is wide, mild steel to armor
with differences in just armor plate, not all armor plate is equal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>whatever! its still over one inch of steel at 600 yards-- get it !!!what part of armour piercing round did'ny you understand?

LEBillfish
02-14-2008, 08:13 AM
I "rule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif" with .50Cal. armed planes (though rarely flying them.....Then again, the MAXIMUM convergence I ever use is 179m (rare) normally around 119-149.....

p.s.....Forget all the BS you have read about r/l setting of convergence from manuals out to 500m and so on. That flawed thinking corrected and noted in the field, and even just yesterday watched some .50Cal aircraft guncams on TV where range was noted on the clips.....Not one was over 100m, most between 43 & 79m.

You simply waste ammo at those rediculous ranges afar.

M_Gunz
02-14-2008, 08:23 AM
whatever! its still over one inch of steel at 600 yards-- get it !!!what part of armour piercing round did'ny you understand?

Oh I get it just fine. I've cut metal and engineered production in a fabrication shop back
25+ years ago so "steel is steel" don't cut it with me. I'd like to give you a hacksaw and a
piece of hardened tool steel and watch you waste the blade trying to work your way through.

The difference between a Ford Econo-Box and a Mercedes is they're both cars, right?

Blutarski2004
02-14-2008, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
I "rule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif" with .50Cal. armed planes (though rarely flying them.....Then again, the MAXIMUM convergence I ever use is 179m (rare) normally around 119-149.....

p.s.....Forget all the BS you have read about r/l setting of convergence from manuals out to 500m and so on. That flawed thinking corrected and noted in the field, and even just yesterday watched some .50Cal aircraft guncams on TV where range was noted on the clips.....Not one was over 100m, most between 43 & 79m.

You simply waste ammo at those rediculous ranges afar.


..... Queen of the skies and a woman after my own heart.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 08:39 AM
USN/USMC planes were set to 1000 feet, in the field, period.

As for US .50 cals, you fly with them all the time, the same gun is on the Ki-43 and other japanese planes with .50 cal guns. The same, exact gun, it's not even cloned and renamed.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 08:47 AM
BTW, I have no problems killing with 0.50 cals, but as gibbage pointed out, the DMs are very poor for non-HE rounds. No radiators modeled at all. No O2 tanks, etc. There is API in the belting, but aside from there being too little of it (that's actually sort of date dependent since ealy in the war the US planes sometimes had nothing but ball ammo with the odd tracer) the AP part is apparently lacking.

Blutarski2004
02-14-2008, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
What incendiary qualities, lol.

The belting has little API or APIT apparently. watched a video other night of 50 cal. AP round fired at 13mm steel plate with another 13 mm steel plate 6 feet behind-from 600 yards AP round went straight through both steel plates-so in my opinion these 50.s in the game need a hell of a lot more work!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Steel plate" -- the variance that can be described right there is wide, mild steel to armor
with differences in just armor plate, not all armor plate is equal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>whatever! its still over one inch of steel at 600 yards-- get it !!!what part of armour piercing round did'ny you understand? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Blindpugh, we have official historical data on WW2 50cal AP performance:

M2 50cal HMG firing M2 50cal AP @ MV 2835fps -

- versus homogeneous rolled armor plate at 30 deg angle of impact:

100 yds - 0.63 in
200 yds - 0.58 in
300 yds - 0.54 in

- versus face-hardened armor plate at 30 deg angle of impact:

100 yds - 0.55 in
200 yds - 0.51 in
300 yds - 0.46 in


Source: Dept of the Army technical manual TM9-1907 "Ballistic Data Performance of Ammunition" - July 1948.

HayateAce
02-14-2008, 09:32 AM
Non of this matters. BoB:SOW will herald the end of immune German WunderBlunder fighters.

It's over gang.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

crucislancer
02-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
USN/USMC planes were set to 1000 feet, in the field, period.

This is true, though I read recently in Corsair Aces of WWII (Osprey) that they set theirs to 900 Feet, which is 274 meters. I've been using that lately, with good results. In fact, I've been trying to find historical data for convergence settings and see how well it works in the game.

With one exception, the offline campaigns I've been playing have been in .50 cal armed aircraft, and most of the time I get some good scores. For instance, the 3 missions I played yesterday, all from different campaigns:

4 Bettys in a F4F-3 (convergence @ 274)
3 Zeros and 1 Rufe in a F4U-1A (convergence @ 274)
2 bf109G-10s and 2 Fw190A-8s in a P-47D-27 (inboard guns @ 228, outboard @ 320)

Most of those went in due to PKs, missing surfaces, and the occasional missing wing. The Bettys were all engine fires, and I set one of the Zeros on fire. Granted, all offline, and the AI planes tend to go in easier then human pilots, but just from what I see I don't think there's much of a problem with the .50s in game. You can pull tons of historical data, compare results, and so forth, but in the end it's all about making the kill, and the .50s will do the job in the game.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 10:40 AM
A given unit might have changed that range a little. The thing is that they shared planes in the Navy (and USMC), even between units. One squadron would rotate out, and the next would take the planes. Having variable harmonization under those conditions would be a major PITA since the pilots would never know what to expect (and the same plane might be flow by two or more different guys on the same day, even).

From a "feel" standpoint I'd like to see more fire, less catastrophic failure of the airframe, though the results in terms of kills might well be the same.

R_Target
02-14-2008, 12:18 PM
I think the decision was made at the squadron level. McCampbell said VF-15 used a tighter pattern than the BuOrd recommendation.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 12:25 PM
Yeah, that would certainly be possible. Individual pilots didn't have custom patterns, though. Also, the USN doctrine was simply not the short range most people use in il-2.

You fight the way you train, and USN/USMC pilots didn't train with convergence settings other than what the standard was. Certainly nothing like 100m or less.

mortoma
02-14-2008, 08:39 PM
It does not matter what convergence the US military used in WWII. Since the game is the game and real life is real life. The damage model is crude and unsophisticated compared to reality so comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. You must use what works in the game, not what they used in real life.

R_Target
02-14-2008, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
It does not matter what convergence the US military used in WWII. Since the game is the game and real life is real life. The damage model is crude and unsophisticated compared to reality so comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. You must use what works in the game, not what they used in real life.

Agreed. I use about 200m most of the time. This gives me a little range for deflection. The downside is I have to kick rudder to get hits if I get in too close.

The weirdest thing I ever saw was blowing the wing off an N1K2 at 450m.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 09:02 PM
I use 1000 feet. If my kill tally is slightly low for the game, I am none the less getting more kills than Foss, McCampbell, Bong, etc (combined, usually, lol).

Gibbage1
02-14-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by crucislancer:
4 Bettys in a F4F-3 (convergence @ 274)
3 Zeros and 1 Rufe in a F4U-1A (convergence @ 274)
2 bf109G-10s and 2 Fw190A-8s in a P-47D-27 (inboard guns @ 228, outboard @ 320)


Isent it VERY telling that, with 7 kills of the most flammable aircraft of WWII, only 1 went down to fuel tank fire?

Considering the Betty's entire wing is a fuel tank, the lack of flammability demonstrates the lack of incendiary content in US .50's.

Also, just think of how fast those 2 109's would of gone down if it took just 1 bullet through its radiator to bring it down.

M_Gunz
02-14-2008, 09:28 PM
If you're going to make deflection shots or high speed passes then you're going to be closing
on the target often quickly. I'm old and slow but I doubt that anyone can fire from inside
100m and avoid ramming the target in many such situations.

The farther out I set convergence, the more parallel to my line of sight the bullets travel.
Cockpits don't tend to protect the pilot from the side or above or often beneath very much
esp shoulders and head, at 500m the .50's go through just fine and it only takes one hit to
PK. Even without PK you still have chance to destroy other lightweight parts. Not that I
fire from 500m and stay that far away still firing! If I make my 1st burst at 400m then I
have maybe time to correct aim and get damage in before I have to exit the pass.

How much ammo is an enemy plane down worth? When I do it right he is dead or smoking in a
couple seconds. My final shots may be from 150-200m, if I'm still on target.

So I submit that convergence range is a matter of how you will engage.

Tater-SW-
02-14-2008, 09:35 PM
BTW, I seem to see far more flaming japanese planes with the Hurri.

M_Gunz
02-14-2008, 09:38 PM
Gib, I do not understand fire and incendiaries *in the game model*. I know we get fires but
I don't know that anything but tracers or certain damage will light a plane up.

Note on Olegs' Guns and Ammo chart that incendiary material is lumped in with explosive.
There is only one value stored, only one to use.
Perhaps the spread of fire is by the value and the M2 "power" value is very small indeed.

OTOH the Mk 108 Incendiaries that IRL did not explode until immersed in liquid act as contact
exploding HE with little shrapnel but a huge orange burst, verifiable in arcade mode playbacks
where you can count the frags.

The hardware was not enough to support spread of fire or fully real blast shockwaves.
This is another place where less 3D modeling would achieve more realistic results.
But hang in there since every new version takes another step, some day it will be the best way.

Ratsack
02-14-2008, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
...Also, just think of how fast those 2 109's would of gone down if it took just 1 bullet through its radiator to bring it down.

This is wrong. While I agree with your criticism of the DM generally, you're mistaken in this instance.

The radiators on the Me 109 G had cut-off valves in the cockpit so either one could be isolated from the rest of the system.

It would take two bullets.

Ratsack

Gibbage1
02-14-2008, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
The radiators on the Me 109 G had cut-off valves in the cockpit so either one could be isolated from the rest of the system.

It would take two bullets.

Ratsack

P-47 fires 113 bullets per SECOND. Thats a lot of changes to hit both rads. Also, how long could the 109 fly at full power if 1 rad was hit? Hummmm? Im guessing not very long. Its still dead meat. Just needs a little more cookin.

JtD
02-14-2008, 11:48 PM
The last time I flew in P-47 online as a fighter I scored 8 kills with 360 hits. The 8 kills were scored against 1944 German opposition and include two Bf 110 which soaked up most of hits, I know I checked after the first one and it ate about 100.

Leaves less than 40 hits / kill for the rest.

Before that I flew the P-51 and scored 6 single engined German 1944 fighters with 130 hits. That makes about 20 hits/kill.

Gibbage1
02-15-2008, 12:08 AM
How many of those kills were fuel tank fire, or radiator leaks? Or even ammo explosions?

GH_Klingstroem
02-15-2008, 01:14 AM
Guys I would suggest that u get used to fire within in the 150-100m distance and also set ur convergence at that. I know its all up to individual preference but the reasons are two!

1. Its much easier to hit a target that is close in, filling the whole circle of the gunsight!

2. I have noticed that most bullets lose their strength outside 300m. That I have noticed by taking hits by german 30mm rounds and 20mm rounds and recieve NO damage at all. I see the shell hitting me and think "now its over" but I hear no hit sound and I recieve no damage and can keep fighting.

I belive this goes for the 50 cal as well as I think its something in the game engine. Could be all from lag to luck but I think the lag will increase with range to target.

My hit percentage is very very rarely below 10% after a few hour online and belive me, the 50 cals can do severe destruction, but almost only when ur hitting ur target from an angle, preferably from above. We have the "point convergence" for the 50 cals in this game so "50 cals" users have to be the most accurate shot in the game. U cant spray and pray like u can with the Fw190 or 109 for example. Be accurate and fire just very short burst every time YOU KNOW u will hit!

With the point convergence you can be 50m behind ur target and it can fill ur whole gunsight circle BUT if that pipper is just 1mm below or above ur target, EVERYTHING will miss (unlike any other gun in the game)!! There is almost NO spread so be accurate when firing! The best advise I can give is to trim trim trim so u are stable on the stick the second u start firing!

M_Gunz
02-15-2008, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
...Also, just think of how fast those 2 109's would of gone down if it took just 1 bullet through its radiator to bring it down.

This is wrong. While I agree with your criticism of the DM generally, you're mistaken in this instance.

The radiators on the Me 109 G had cut-off valves in the cockpit so either one could be isolated from the rest of the system.

It would take two bullets.

Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite a few planes had automatic cut-offs in radiators and IIRC oil systems. The whole cooler
didn't need to shut down, only the part with the pressure drop. The cut-offs were a feature
like self-sealing fuel tanks, non-oxygen gas or fumes in the fuel tank or slats, etc.

I wonder if any of the bombers had gear blow-down bottles or if that one is much newer?

Still you won't get full function with 25% of your radiator not working.

DKoor
02-15-2008, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
BTW, I seem to see far more flaming japanese planes with the Hurri. +1

7,62 is far more effective in this area than 12,7.

But no one gave a leak about that.

And it's not something we've noticed yesterday.... TigerTalon made a series of tests in this regard and we could all see huge difference between incendiary power of 7,62 vs 12,7.

mbfRoy
02-15-2008, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

With the point convergence you can be 50m behind ur target and it can fill ur whole gunsight circle BUT if that pipper is just 1mm below or above ur target, EVERYTHING will miss (unlike any other gun in the game)!! There is almost NO spread so be accurate when firing! The best advise I can give is to trim trim trim so u are stable on the stick the second u start firing!
That's so true... yesterday I went back online on WC after many months, took a Mustang III and dammit it is SO hard to hit with the 50cals. I had been playing offline flying the P-51 mostly (after watching your videos :P) and while I can pretty much do the vertical maneuvers I found out that I suck so badly at shooting that I was embarassed. I still got one kill (and 2 deaths, and no credit for the kill since I didn't make it back) but my accuracy dropped to 1% http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 06:15 AM
if this is still true for 4.08

Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

no wonder !!


APIT - APIT - APIT - HE - AP for the .50cal would be propably better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and perhaps the Maddox team should rethink the power of the .50cal HE round , less power than the APIT round and also less than a .303cal API round !?!?!?!

GH_Klingstroem
02-15-2008, 06:25 AM
Frankyboy do you know which one of those rounds in the 0.50cals it is that creates that flash when u hit the target??

Most rounds will show no clue when u hit the target exept debris falling off, but some will create that flash you see in gun cameras etc etc. Which round is that??

mbfRoy
02-15-2008, 06:27 AM
The problem is not that they are weak (they are not IMO), the problem is hitting with them! Also the lack of visual feedback caused by the lack of hits -no dispersion + no sparkles => think:"god dammit I'm not hitting!"- doesn't help either. 10-20 bullets can cripple any luftwaffe fighter or even rip a wing, assuming that those bullets did hit at convergence.

In the end it's more a matter of getting used to not seeing where you are hitting but knowing that at X distance with Y banking if I lead the target Z degrees I'll score. So... it's just asking for lots of hours flying and shooting these birds

MB_Avro_UK
02-15-2008, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
The radiators on the Me 109 G had cut-off valves in the cockpit so either one could be isolated from the rest of the system.

It would take two bullets.

Ratsack

P-47 fires 113 bullets per SECOND. Thats a lot of changes to hit both rads. Also, how long could the 109 fly at full power if 1 rad was hit? Hummmm? Im guessing not very long. Its still dead meat. Just needs a little more cookin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

113 50s per second! So, if you are on target for one second that should cause a massive amount of damage?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

JtD
02-15-2008, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
How many of those kills were fuel tank fire, or radiator leaks? Or even ammo explosions?

I figure a tad more than if I had used a 20mm round from another plane.

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 09:42 AM
Isent it VERY telling that, with 7 kills of the most flammable aircraft of WWII, only 1 went down to fuel tank fire?

It doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong. It could be that very flammable aircraft only burn one time in 10 in real life, but less flammable ones only one time in 20. Without some sort of baseline it is hard to say if the modelling is right or not.

But... if you compare against numerous types and create a ranking of how flammable they are in the game, and do the same for real life then there might be some planes that look out of place in the game's ranking.

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 09:53 AM
Yes, but if you shoot the same planes down with .303 guns, and they burn more...

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 10:01 AM
I wonder if any of the bombers had gear blow-down bottles or if that one is much newer?

The E.28/41 had this. I don't know about bombers.

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 10:11 AM
113 50s per second! So, if you are on target for one second that should cause a massive amount of damage?

Depends on the hit rate. A typical WW2 hit rate for a burst was 5 to 10% but based on longer bursts (around 2 seconds) with bracketing. So assuming that the hit rates for 1 second truly on target to 10 to 20% then that's around 10 to 20 actual strikes on target. That should be enough to put a WW2 fighter out of action (18 hits calculated as the average for 50 cals).

So if you are dead on target then you should cripple the target about 75% of the time if your actual hit rate for that one second burst is 10 to 20%. If the hit rate for that 1 second burst is down in the 5 to 10% range then it is going to be down to 25% at best (roughly).

If you are in a Tempest or Fw190A then (discounting cowl guns) you are throwing about 45 shells out per second, 10 to 20% of which is between 4 and 9, with 5 to 6 considered sufficient, so the kill certainty should be higher than with 50 cals, and it seems to be. Down at the 5 to 10% level and you are landing 2 to 4 hits, so stand maybe a 35% chance, so only a little better than 50 cals. In real life you'd stand a better chance of causing critical damage with a low number of hits with 20mm due to the chance of an HE hit being near something critical. This should be reflected in the game. The game probably overemphasises it a bit, though, due to the thresholds in the damage system. Plus the mind will tend to remember the spectacular wing removals more than the other events (the mind tends to remember outliers as in an evolutionary sense novelty might be the beginning of a new trend, so our minds are keenly observant of these), so you tend to overempahsise those in your memory, so you need to rely more on statistical analyses.

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 10:12 AM
Yes, but if you shoot the same planes down with .303 guns, and they burn more...

Is that just with .303s or all rifle calibre guns?

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 10:26 AM
i think only the soviet Shkas is comparable, no wonder IF this is still the 4.08 belt -> ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API
........all other rifle calibers are much less efficent than the .303cal

GH_Klingstroem
02-15-2008, 10:44 AM
yes Aaron,however if IRC the average guy in WW2 was FAAR below 10% hit rate. I tend to remember that if you hit with 10% of ur rounds u were considered an extremely good marksman! On warclouds WF server most guys are at hit rate of around 2% or even less! (im talking about 0.50 cals now)
The reason as I see it is still the extremely tight convergence we have. It makes it extremely difficult to hit ur target!

I cant explain it properly but its like sending out a PAPER THIN wall of bullets towards ur target. ALL bullets will either go just above it, or be smack on, or ALL bullets will end just below ur target. There is no vertical spread!!
U can change ur convergence distance as much as u want but that will only change the distance where this paperthin wall of rounds will converge, its still paper thin!!
Now from what u read in reports they say that you should go so close in on target´s 6 that you cant miss. Well with the 0.50s we have u can be less than 50m behind ur enemies 6. It doesnt matter, if that pipper is a just a mm below the target or above, ALL ur rounds will miss!
The actual round itself I find deadly enough. I think maybe the Fw190 engine DM needs a bit weakening tho and maybe the P47 engine needs a bit of toughening, but thats another story...

R_Target
02-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by DKoor

And it's not something we've noticed yesterday.... TigerTalon made a series of tests in this regard and we could all see huge difference between incendiary power of 7,62 vs 12,7.

Indeed. TT's tests were pretty thorough.

GH_Klingstroem
02-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Still noone here that knows which one of the 4 ammo types in the 0.50cal belt that produces that flash when it hits it target????

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Still noone here that knows which one of the 4 ammo types in the 0.50cal belt that produces that flash when it hits it target????

the APIT

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 11:11 AM
I have a feeling that with the proper belting, and/or "power" values scaled to the other rounds the 0.50s became too deadly vs japanese planes and it was easier to tone down the .50s than redo all the japanese DMs.

GH_Klingstroem
02-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Thx Frankyboy!

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
I have a feeling that with the proper belting, and/or "power" values scaled to the other rounds the 0.50s became too deadly vs japanese planes and it was easier to tone down the .50s than redo all the japanese DMs.

i realy dont see a proplem in that (flying japanese often online !).
the only real late war japanese Zippo, the Ki-84, is than "balanced" by its performance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

it would realy be interesting to see how .50cal with more APIT in their belt would be .............

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 11:46 AM
I fly japanese a lot as well to balance sides. The short story is that I imagine that flying a zero would be like flying a US plane vs something with good cannons. Any solid burst would torch it. Right now, a similar burst would likely kill you just as dead, but it wouldn't burn. Lethality would probably be up a bit overall, though.

Honestly, the way to fly a zero is to not get hit. Not ever. Also, you certainly don't want to get hit at all in a Zeke then have to fly back to Buin or Buka from Guadalcanal, you just won't make it. (trust me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

One problem is that the belting for the M2 affects US planes throughout the war, AND other planes that use the M2 as a stand in for their own 50 cals (the japanese planes (Oscar, etc) in game use the M2, unmodified apparently). What would be ideal would be to have an early war M2, and a later war M2. Early would have almost all AP, and a little APIT (the min possible, 1 in 5 or 1 in 10). The later war M2 would have a proper belting heavy on API. "Later" in this case would be early 1943 or so. In 1942 a major complain of the USN pilots was that had they been shooting API they would have downed far more planes (and they were already at a positive K/D vs the IJN, even with naught but ball ammo).

Such a API heavy belting would make the US planes overly deadly in 1942, and right from '43 on.

tater

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
...................... (the japanese planes (Oscar, etc) in game use the M2, unmodified apparently). ...........

at least they have another tracer colour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 12:07 PM
I don't begrudge the Oscar any increase in lethality it might gain from 1943+ M2 belting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have to say, the oscar is a joy to fly, and I love the feeling of really earning a kill with it. I just don't understand the guys who fly the planes with wish 'em dead guns. I took one of the Franks up vs B-29s and it was a joke, frankly. Bang, bang, bang! Dead 29. Bang, bang! Dead 29. I had less trouble wiping out a tight formation of B-29s than I have with a Vic of Vals in a F4F-4, lol.

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2008, 12:24 PM
sounds like the -Ic ..........
if yes, i doubt Maddox made for the japanese Ho-105 canon another modell, i guess the ingame Ho-105 is a simple "copy" of the german MK108 - that means Mineshells....................

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 12:30 PM
yes Aaron,however if IRC the average guy in WW2 was FAAR below 10% hit rate. I tend to remember that if you hit with 10% of ur rounds u were considered an extremely good marksman!

I know. I was bumping up the chances a bit, but then some shots will have been speculative during WW2 - i.e. not likely to hit at all, so that lowers the hit rate (overall) but it might be not far from 10% when 'on target'.

Aaron_GT
02-15-2008, 12:31 PM
There is no vertical spread!!

JtD did a fair bit of testing on this, and it seems to be within normal dispersion bounds for an individual gun, but with out pattern harmonisation it is less than it could be, as pattern harmonisation involved canting some guns up and down relative to the others.

Xiolablu3
02-15-2008, 01:30 PM
SHould a bigger 50cal round actually have more chance of setting a fuel tank on fire? Or should it be about equal with a .303?

Does a bigger round make it more likely to flame up?

I have no idea actually...


I pretty sure that the .50's are more effective in general than the .303's. Try using .303 vs a late war FW190, for example and its almost useless.n Its OK vs Japanese planes or early Bf109E's.

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 01:42 PM
From my experience in game, the 303s are MORE effective at starting fires.

JtD
02-15-2008, 02:19 PM
Some are more effective than the HMG. Not all, though.

But why are so keen on fires? It's not that you hit a plane and it's going to ashes instantly, you know. Is there any test around explaining the effectiveness of an I round against fuel tank that offers a decent level of protection, say self sealing with inert gas filling?

Tater-SW-
02-15-2008, 02:29 PM
I think since I mostly fly in the pacific I find it odd that the planes known for being very vulnerable to fire don't burn very often, and instead break apart frequently, and yet with a hurricane they catch fire for me with a little squirt.

M_Gunz
02-15-2008, 02:30 PM
I used to think that B-17's had those features.....

Gibbage1
02-15-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
But why are so keen on fires?

Because THIS is simply NOT acceptable.

http://www.gibbageart.com/files/burn.jpg

DKoor
02-15-2008, 03:08 PM
Without a doubt fire (other than plain shell thru skull scenario) was your no.1 enemy in airplane.

So crippling incendiary power is really... well.

Doh.

JtD
02-16-2008, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
But why are so keen on fires?

Because THIS is simply NOT acceptable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why don't you do it like this?
http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/screens/burningG4M.jpg

Three out of four Betties caught fire in the first pass.

But it's not like that you reply to my post actually answered my question. I've seen a H6K taking hundreds of hits without catching fire.

uf_josse
02-16-2008, 12:23 AM
API only in a belt, little bit more desync and spreading woul'd be a great solution in pacific theater..... it change reaaly the perception of the game.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif believe me.

Much more planes that catches fire, rarily broken wing.... but harder for western front..... me and fw are pretty resistants to API. Just have to perform perfect aiming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Copperhead311th
02-16-2008, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
if this is still true for 4.08

Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

no wonder !!


APIT - APIT - APIT - HE - AP for the .50cal would be propably better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and perhaps the Maddox team should rethink the power of the .50cal HE round , less power than the APIT round and also less than a .303cal API round !?!?!?!
+1

uf_josse
02-16-2008, 01:03 AM
No more true for HE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

power is something like 0.00098

And you forgot to speak about kaliber..... very important value for weapons...... (not true caliber, but ability to perforate....)

JtD
02-16-2008, 01:32 AM
Do you guys actually have a clue what what value in FB code stands for, how it compares to other guns in game and how things were in real life?

Do you actually have recent data? Because the table above is about 4 years old.

How often were HE rounds used with the Browning anyway? Why should it have more power?

uf_josse
02-16-2008, 01:38 AM
yes.

Gibbage1
02-16-2008, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by JtD:

Then why don't you do it like this?


Only 1 of those Betty's has a fuel tank fire. The rest are engine fire/smoke. I never said anything about engine fire. Im speaking only of the incendary being able to light fuel tanks. IF you cant look at my screenshot and realize something is VERY VERY wrong, then your blind.

JtD
02-16-2008, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:

Only 1 of those Betty's has a fuel tank fire. The rest are engine fire/smoke. I never said anything about engine fire. Im speaking only of the incendary being able to light fuel tanks. IF you cant look at my screenshot and realize something is VERY VERY wrong, then your blind.

No, there are 4 fires on 3 planes and all are fuel tank fires. If you can't look at my screenshot and realize that this is VERY VERY different from yours, then you're blind.

You presented one sample of evidence, I provided another one. Mind you, it was the first try I gave it. I don't know many were needed to produce the picture you posted.

Tater-SW-
02-16-2008, 08:58 AM
What is the factor considered incendiary? The "power?" It would be interesting to compare different APIs in game, since the US IM11/IM23 was pretty unique and effective (and the UK introduced something similar for their .303s, the dewilde ammo)

Tater-SW-
02-16-2008, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by uf_josse:
No more true for HE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

power is something like 0.00098

And you forgot to speak about kaliber..... very important value for weapons...... (not true caliber, but ability to perforate....)

What are some sample values for this used?

blindpugh
02-16-2008, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
if this is still true for 4.08

Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

no wonder !!


APIT - APIT - APIT - HE - AP for the .50cal would be propably better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and perhaps the Maddox team should rethink the power of the .50cal HE round , less power than the APIT round and also less than a .303cal API round !?!?!?! Dont you just know olegs a LW fanboy!!

M_Gunz
02-16-2008, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uf_josse:
No more true for HE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

power is something like 0.00098

And you forgot to speak about kaliber..... very important value for weapons...... (not true caliber, but ability to perforate....)

What are some sample values for this used? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I try to remember, it was like explosive power equivalent to so many kilos of TNT.

All explosives and incendiary material for bullet or shell are lumped into that one number.

Gibbage1
02-16-2008, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
No, there are 4 fires on 3 planes and all are fuel tank fires.

Your evedence is rather flawed in the fact that the targets are NOT in full frame, and you cant see what components are damaged. My evedence shows EVERY HIT AND ITS LOCATION ALONG THE WING! That screenshot was a pack of 4, like yours. I did the very same thing as you did, I just didnt make the Betty's postage stamps.

Its also interesting you say you did it all in 1 pass, but only 1 shows the arrows.

So I will say this simply, so you can understand. Got track?

Gibbage1
02-16-2008, 12:45 PM
Also, remember in my screenshot, there are about 200 hits in the wings. The Betty's wings are nothing but a aerofoil fuel tank. 1 our of 4 bullets in an APIT on the .50's, so that means at least 50!!! APIT's passed through the Betty's wings WITHOUT lighting it on fire. Just the fact that I could even get a screenshot like that means there is something very wrong.

BaronUnderpants
02-16-2008, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
No, there are 4 fires on 3 planes and all are fuel tank fires.

Your evedence is rather flawed in the fact that the targets are NOT in full frame, and you cant see what components are damaged. My evedence shows EVERY HIT AND ITS LOCATION ALONG THE WING! That screenshot was a pack of 4, like yours. I did the very same thing as you did, I just didnt make the Betty's postage stamps.

Its also interesting you say you did it all in 1 pass, but only 1 shows the arrows.

So I will say this simply, so you can understand. Got track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maby he meant first pass on each aircraft...4 passes in total.

JtD
02-16-2008, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:

So I will say this simply, so you can understand. Got track?

You can't argue a subject, you need to go down to personal attacks and insult. Not my cup of tea.

Tater-SW-
02-16-2008, 04:37 PM
Regardless, the gibbage shot should be totally impossible with any API ammo.

I've found problems in my betty testing with reversed damage, too. I only hit the left wing and the right smokes/catches fire.

M_Gunz
02-17-2008, 12:24 AM
If it's one target this way and another target the other way then could you be looking at DM
or a combination of DM and incendiaries used? A tough plane to light up could be used to
show something about differences in different guns and ammo but please be careful to not
say that the ratio of light-ups equals the ratio of incendiary effect, there may be some
thresholds in the code where a value slightly higher would make the fire while the other
almost as large would not. The test can be fine and still poor conclusions may result.

Gibbage1
02-17-2008, 03:05 AM
I would say that the Betty's wings not lighting up COULD be a DM problem, IF the .303's didnt light them up so easy. Try the same test with a Hurricane, and the Betty's light up real well! I haven't tried it with the Russians 7.62 green lasers, but im sure it will be very similar to the .303's since they have a LOT of incendiary and tracers in the belting.

Gibbage1
02-17-2008, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
You can't argue a subject, you need to go down to personal attacks and insult. Not my cup of tea.

All I did was ask for a track, or even closer shots of the Betty, and you dodged. Put up, or shut up. The fact that your dodging such a SIMPLE request leads me to question your "proof".

JtD
02-17-2008, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:

All I did was ask for a track, or even closer shots of the Betty, and you dodged. Put up, or shut up. The fact that your dodging such a SIMPLE request leads me to question your "proof".

What you said was:


So I will say this simply, so you can understand.

You don't say sorry for that, you can ask for whatever you want, be it simple or complex. You won't get it.

And you are not the one to tell me to shut up. I expect an apology for that as well.

JtD
02-17-2008, 04:55 AM
Now this was just too funny, can't resist:

Porked .50 cal vs. ubertough Betty (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/eighthits.ntrk)

Not that you get the wrong picture though, the above is not the norm.

M_Gunz
02-17-2008, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I would say that the Betty's wings not lighting up COULD be a DM problem, IF the .303's didnt light them up so easy. Try the same test with a Hurricane, and the Betty's light up real well! I haven't tried it with the Russians 7.62 green lasers, but im sure it will be very similar to the .303's since they have a LOT of incendiary and tracers in the belting.

What if it's the tracers that catch the fire and the incendiaries only explode?

JtD
02-17-2008, 06:38 AM
With the 0.50 cals, both the APIT and the HE can cause fires.

Tater-SW-
02-17-2008, 09:09 AM
I think there is certainly an issue with DMs, too. That's the problem with any weapon/DM changes, they are very much linked.

Many of the japanese planes are screwy in the DM department. The Sally, for example. It has left/right issues (shoot one wing, the opposite wing smokes, etc"”the Betty shares this problem, BTW)), and is almost impossible to light afire. The Ki-27 is also weird. I never catch them on fire, but I do make them EXPLODE quite a bit, what's with that?


tater

Browning50cal
02-17-2008, 09:24 AM
I feel the same way about the .303 vs. .50 issue. In Il2 it is way easier to set something on fire with a .30 cal weapon than it is with the BMG .50.

I think how many rounds it takes to get a .50 kill is modeled o.k., but they don't ever light anything up. It is possible to put an F6F's entire ammo load into a Val and still have it fly away. Not everytime, but it does happen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Like was said earlier in the thread, if you do the same with a Hurri, you can flame at least 5 Val's with that loadout (MkI even). It's one of the biggest turn offs for PF for me, and why I normally gravitate to Eastern or Western front campaigns.

You can clearly see in the Marianas cun cam footage that's so popular, that a Zero will positively go up like a torch at the slightest penetration by the .50 round. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

While that would be detrimental to gameplay for those that fly the Japanese aircraft, it would in no way be unrealistic.

My favorite aircraft to fly against Japanese aircraft is the P-39 D2. It has a 20mm that will take off a wing, and 4 .30 caliber guns that flame Japanese aircraft as if you were shooting them with a .50 in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

B50

uf_josse
02-17-2008, 10:06 AM
Hummm... exact that it is rarely fire on kI-27... But it can happen..... (he exploded 2 seconds later)

http://lespotesajosse.free.fr/ki27-flammes.jpg

Possible too for sally wings, engines and... fuselage (very surprised but, it happened.... often left engine, but can burn from 2 wings (with a looooong burst...)

http://lespotesajosse.free.fr/sally-flammes.jpg

http://lespotesajosse.free.fr/sally-flammes2.jpg

BTW, i was very surprised to see that perhaps the most flammable japanese plane is the ....ki46 in the game.... a real torch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Tater-SW-
02-17-2008, 10:12 AM
I was just testing, and the 303s no longer light up the betty, least in the 4.09 beta i'm using. Last time I tested a bunch was a while ago.

I emptied an entire ammo load (hurricane) into one betty wing a few times and I managed smoke once, zero fire. I did get some fire with the 50 cals though it looked like gib's image before I saw any. The Sally is nearly impossible to set afire. The 30 cal on the 109F4 lights on fire the betty pretty quickly. A lot less than all the ammo required.

JtD
02-17-2008, 10:42 AM
I tested this a lot within the last two days and I never fires on the G4M start on the other wing.

I take it you guys did not watch my track?

Can we keep it to 4.08? 4.09 hasn't been released yet.

Tater-SW-
02-17-2008, 10:54 AM
I think my reversal issue was an engine fire. It certainly happened though, not a single hit on the left side and it (engine) was burning.

M_Gunz
02-17-2008, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
I think my reversal issue was an engine fire. It certainly happened though, not a single hit on the left side and it (engine) was burning.

When the 151/20 and gunpod ammo mixes were finally fixed it was part of a patch. There is one
chance it will get fixed and that is probably extremely slim unless it's already been done.
But I thought that the release 4.09 was only waiting on maps back a while ago?

Tater-SW-
02-17-2008, 08:05 PM
The 409b 303 seems to have no API, I emptied (completely) a hurri into a betty and no fire. The arrow shafts were overlapping and covered every square inch of the target (was aiming at wings).

Gibbage1
02-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The 409b 303 seems to have no API, I emptied (completely) a hurri into a betty and no fire. The arrow shafts were overlapping and covered every square inch of the target (was aiming at wings).

Try the I-16's green lasers. Those things would light stuff up easy. Maybe its a new bug with the fuel tanks? I know in the past, the Betty's WOULD light with the Hurri. It was a lot of fun in QMB's.

Tater-SW-
02-17-2008, 10:11 PM
I know, I saw it online, too, on the Malaya maps (the G4M being the only bomber for the japanese to use).

Gibbage1
02-18-2008, 01:08 AM
I do my test off-line in QMB. I set up 4 friendly Betty's and have my way with them. Online, its possible to have bad connections that may drop hits and sway the test results. I also sometimes test using a 2nd computer on a lan, for the P-47 engine DM bug. There are no dropped or missing packets on a LAN.

Aaron_GT
02-18-2008, 04:24 AM
It probably comes down to how the damage model hit boxes are placed and how simple the damage model is. There are times when I've put plenty of 20mm ammunition into something and it has carried on as if nothing had happened. It's not necessarily common, but it happens. With Gibbage's pic there is no statistical context so it is hard to say if it is one of the statistical outliers (akin to Johnson's P-47, possibly) or nearer to the average. Ditto JtD's pics. Perhaps the variation is too great in the game compared to reality, but then P-47s coming back after 20 20mm hits would then also not happen, but perhaps the distribution's tail is currently too fat.

BSS_Sniper
02-18-2008, 06:02 AM
Could someone show me or explain where there is/was a HE round for the .50 cal in WW2 or even 30 years after that? From what I understand it has only been recently developed and rare. More of an exotic round. I've never in my personal/professional experience seen or heard of one other. Just wondering.

M_Gunz
02-18-2008, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Could someone show me or explain where there is/was a HE round for the .50 cal in WW2 or even 30 years after that? From what I understand it has only been recently developed and rare. More of an exotic round. I've never in my personal/professional experience seen or heard of one other. Just wondering.

There was even explosive .45 ACP and be sure later on explosive .22 rimfire.
These were hollow point lead with tetryl and a plug, the primer is the charge.
It's not nearly the same as thin or thick wall steel with fuse and charge in effect for size.

JtD
02-18-2008, 09:26 AM
The difference between my and Gibbages results is down to the angle of attack. I attack from above, so I hit the fuel tanks at a perpendicular angle. They light up very well. Gibbage parks on the aircrafts 6 and shoots from there. I suppose with the il-2 DM his hits do not penetrate into the fuel tanks and do not cause a fire. This has very little to do with the .50, a but a lot with DM.

What I would like to see is a picture of a G4M wing construction, probably including metals and thicknesses used, couldn't find any on my HD or in the web. Anyone?

Aaron_GT
02-18-2008, 10:17 AM
It might be how the fuel tanks are modelled and/or the way the damage system is a bit all-or-nothing. It sounds like a number of components in the game are not of the same size as the originals, so perhaps the fuel tanks aren't tall enough to be reliably hit with enough damage for the DM from the rear. It sounds like 4.09 has changed things too (I haven't installed the beta myself).

Tater-SW-
02-18-2008, 10:19 AM
This is certainly true in actual play. I have practiced a doctrinally correct (for the USN) "high side" attack and I try to set them up whenever possible.

That said, I have experimented with dead 6 attack (friendlies) using various MGs, and others set the Betty aflame from dead 6 better than the US 0.50 cal (which pretty soon into the war should be almost all API). The german MGs do a better job, for example, as do the russian ones, so it's not just the DM, though the DM is certainly an issue.

I would say that it might be the HE in the other beltings, but I know for a fact (I can make screenshots if you like) that pure API/APIT belting on the M2 sets G4Ms ablaze from dead six, too, so it is not just the DM.

RegRag1977
02-19-2008, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
The difference between my and Gibbages results is down to the angle of attack. I attack from above, so I hit the fuel tanks at a perpendicular angle. They light up very well. Gibbage parks on the aircrafts 6 and shoots from there. I suppose with the il-2 DM his hits do not penetrate into the fuel tanks and do not cause a fire. This has very little to do with the .50, a but a lot with DM.

Exactly! This is exactly what i thought after watching your track with the F4F attacking the Betty.
The angle of attack is practically 90? with big altitude/speed advantage. Was really impressive track http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif 8 hits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
But the problem is that in the pacific scenario you can hardly use this technique to ignite the betty fuel tanks, unless you have a good submarine mode http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, like a flying fish. Because there typical Betty missions are mostly dropping little bombettes over the target or the special "torpedo hut delivery": both styles are done at very low altitude. So you only have the choice to attack between 0? and 45? to manoeuver if you want to have a chance to recover and to keep your speed ( Betty are fast on the deck even if you fly a F4F fighter against it, and you really don't wat to get the special .30 right between the eyes).
I'm not the best shot in the place my stats are always fluctuating around 10%, 8%, 12% depending on the AC : but using those angles, rarely have i flamed a Betty, even with 8 .50 cal.
I tried from higher angles and it was easier, mostly because you had the time, the room, to aim at the engine sector...Up there, they are not so dangerous for the fleet...

Only my two cents though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tater-SW-
02-19-2008, 12:41 PM
Again, while that angle of attack might show a DM issue, I can reliably set them afire pretty easily with pure API/APIT from dead six. It's not just the DM.

mbfRoy
02-19-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Again, while that angle of attack might show a DM issue, I can reliably set them afire pretty easily with pure API/APIT from dead six. It's not just the DM.
You mean with API/APIT-only in the 50cal ammo belting?

Tater-SW-
02-19-2008, 12:54 PM
yes.

Don't ask. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mbfRoy
02-20-2008, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
yes.

Don't ask. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Hmmm ok I won't ask. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Does it light up other aircraft more easily aswell? Also, are the tracers easier to see from the cockpit?

BSS_Sniper
02-20-2008, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Could someone show me or explain where there is/was a HE round for the .50 cal in WW2 or even 30 years after that? From what I understand it has only been recently developed and rare. More of an exotic round. I've never in my personal/professional experience seen or heard of one other. Just wondering.

There was even explosive .45 ACP and be sure later on explosive .22 rimfire.
These were hollow point lead with tetryl and a plug, the primer is the charge.
It's not nearly the same as thin or thick wall steel with fuse and charge in effect for size. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sounds like an exotic/rare round, not something in common everyday use. I'm not denying there were any, just that there was an HE round for .50's in aircraft belting. I still don't know why I see that popping up every once in a while here.

Ratsack
02-20-2008, 06:36 AM
Both sides made extensive use of explosive bullets in WWI.

FWIW.

cheers,
Ratsack

BSS_Sniper
02-20-2008, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Both sides made extensive use of explosive bullets in WWI.

FWIW.

cheers,
Ratsack

Please show me common use of .50 cal HE. Not arguing really, I just don't believe it was common if even used.

Diablo310th
02-20-2008, 06:53 AM
The only mention I have ever seen of the HE round was by a PBY crew that tried it on Japanese ac. By 1944 if not sooner most US ac were using a loadout similar to 4xAPI and 1xAPIT. There were some custom loadouts also by crewchiefs. I posted some time back in the 50's thread pictures and links to articles showing the typical loadout.

Tater-SW-
02-20-2008, 07:15 AM
It is more effective vs some japanese planes, and doesn't seem so for the german planes. According to uf_josse who has done more testing, it might be less effective (4xAPI, APIT) vs german planes than the stock belting, and is certainly far less effective than vs the japanese planes.

He said above in this thread:

Originally posted by uf_josse:
API only in a belt, little bit more desync and spreading woul'd be a great solution in pacific theater..... it change reaaly the perception of the game.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif believe me.

Much more planes that catches fire, rarily broken wing.... but harder for western front..... me and fw are pretty resistants to API. Just have to perform perfect aiming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mbfRoy
02-20-2008, 08:29 AM
I wonder why since API stands for Armor Piercing Incendiary, right?. Are you using API or AP?

Also, if you put APIT only does it shoot tons of tracers and last but not least, does it make lots of sparks when the hits land on a target?

Tater-SW-
02-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Dunno why the API isn't any more effective vs the german planes. The HE rounds in the stock belting might be doing more than the difference between AP and API for planes with self-sealing tanks, perhaps.

M_Gunz
02-20-2008, 10:41 AM
Dunno if it's any help,

From Ammo Guide: (http://ammoguide.com/?article=kpagel0507)

Development Takes Off :
The onset of WW2 initiated a surge in development of the caliber and many design concepts were investigated just prior to, during, and well after the war. Loadings tried, at one time or another over the decades, include Ball, Blank, Grenade Blank, Dummy, Proof, Tracer (numerous variations !), Incendiary, Explosive, Shot, Frangible, Match, Hollow-Point, Tear Gas, Spotter (Observation), Armor Plate Test, Armor Piercing, Limited-Range Training, Short-Range Training, Limited-Range Training-Tracer, Short-Range Training-Tracer, Armor Piercing-Incendiary, Armor Piercing-Tracer, Armor Piercing-Tear Gas, Armor Piercing-Explosive, Armor Piercing-Incendiary-Tracer, Explosive-Incendiary, Explosive-Tear Gas, Incendiary-Tracer, Hi Explosive-Incendiary-Armor Piercing ("Multi-Purpose"), Hi Explosive-Incendiary-Armor Piercing-Tracer ("Multi-Purpose-Tracer"), (Plastic) Practice, (Plastic) Practice-Tracer, Flechette, Armor Piercing-Discarding Sabot, Armor Piercing-Discarding Sabot-Tracer, Caseless, Telescoped, "Folded," Lockless, Gyrojet, "Taper-Bore," "Triplex," Bio-Chem Warfare, etc.

I don't know Oleg's source. Explosive bullets were not just experiments but for snipers they
were illegal. Not saying they were not used, just that finding data on those who were around
to clean up records may be difficult. And of course on the basis of a single reference we may
have such in IL2 series. I have not found them in a WWII M2 ammo lineup yet.

BSS_Sniper
02-20-2008, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Dunno if it's any help,

From Ammo Guide: (http://ammoguide.com/?article=kpagel0507)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Development Takes Off :
The onset of WW2 initiated a surge in development of the caliber and many design concepts were investigated just prior to, during, and well after the war. Loadings tried, at one time or another over the decades, include Ball, Blank, Grenade Blank, Dummy, Proof, Tracer (numerous variations !), Incendiary, Explosive, Shot, Frangible, Match, Hollow-Point, Tear Gas, Spotter (Observation), Armor Plate Test, Armor Piercing, Limited-Range Training, Short-Range Training, Limited-Range Training-Tracer, Short-Range Training-Tracer, Armor Piercing-Incendiary, Armor Piercing-Tracer, Armor Piercing-Tear Gas, Armor Piercing-Explosive, Armor Piercing-Incendiary-Tracer, Explosive-Incendiary, Explosive-Tear Gas, Incendiary-Tracer, Hi Explosive-Incendiary-Armor Piercing ("Multi-Purpose"), Hi Explosive-Incendiary-Armor Piercing-Tracer ("Multi-Purpose-Tracer"), (Plastic) Practice, (Plastic) Practice-Tracer, Flechette, Armor Piercing-Discarding Sabot, Armor Piercing-Discarding Sabot-Tracer, Caseless, Telescoped, "Folded," Lockless, Gyrojet, "Taper-Bore," "Triplex," Bio-Chem Warfare, etc.

I don't know Oleg's source. Explosive bullets were not just experiments but for snipers they
were illegal. Not saying they were not used, just that finding data on those who were around
to clean up records may be difficult. And of course on the basis of a single reference we may
have such in IL2 series. I have not found them in a WWII M2 ammo lineup yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the sniper thing is a common misconception. There's nothing illegal about that. Actually, there's one thing, hollow point rounds, but who wants to use those for LR anyhow. lol

Anyhow, I'm still wondering why HE is even talked about since it was not common what so ever in aircraft belting or any for that matter and still isn't today. I also wonder why oleg has it included, if I read things correctly, in the game.

Tater-SW-
02-20-2008, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by uf_josse:
No more true for HE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

power is something like 0.00098

And you forgot to speak about kaliber..... very important value for weapons...... (not true caliber, but ability to perforate....)

What are the stock il-3 penetration values for the various 50 cal ammo, and how do they compare to others?

M_Gunz
02-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
I think the sniper thing is a common misconception. There's nothing illegal about that. Actually, there's one thing, hollow point rounds, but who wants to use those for LR anyhow. lol

No need for long range, ball ammo tip gets hot and soft enough from friction to mushroom big.


Anyhow, I'm still wondering why HE is even talked about since it was not common what so ever in aircraft belting or any for that matter and still isn't today. I also wonder why oleg has it included, if I read things correctly, in the game.

Here in the US we have games with AK-47, etc. You think Russian or US data gets used?

Gibbage1
02-20-2008, 11:41 PM
Reading the account of Midway, the PBY Catalina that found the Midway fleet, only did it because they stole 5 .50 cal HE rounds from the armory to try them out on a H8K that shot them up the day before. Apparently, the PBY and H8K had been trading shots for a few days.

The PBY crew stocked extra cans of fuel to extend the range to find this H8K. They were low on gas, and about ready to RTB, and decided to use the fuel cants to stay a little longer. Soon after they used the cans, they found the Japanese Midway fleet!

So, Midway itself happened BECAUSE of .50 cal HE rounds.

They did exist. What they were, and how much they were used is still in question. The only reference I have come upon that describes what it was, was the tip being filled with Mercury. Once the bullet hit, the Mercury would compress, heat up, and flash. Creating a very bright white flash. This was used in conjunction with AP rounds VS Japanese aircraft, in that the AP's would puncture the fuel tanks, and the mercury flash would set it alight. I have not yet been able to confirm these mercury filled rounds.

Tater-SW-
02-21-2008, 12:15 AM
API used IM11: IM-11
50% Barium Nitrate
50% Magnesium Aluminum Alloy

Some also used IM23:
IM-23
50% Potassium Perchlorate
50% Magnesium Aluminum Alloy

M_Gunz
02-21-2008, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The only reference I have come upon that describes what it was, was the tip being filled with Mercury. Once the bullet hit, the Mercury would compress, heat up, and flash. Creating a very bright white flash.

Mercury does not do that, Mercury Fulminate does.

It's the same as what cap gu caps have a tiny (less than 2 milligram) amount of and blasting
caps that can take your hand off easily have more of.

Any fulminate will explode when squeezed or pinched. It is or was used in firearm primers.

M_Gunz
02-21-2008, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
50% Potassium Perchlorate
50% Magnesium Aluminum Alloy

This is very like the mix used in M-80's. We just used the Perchlorate and straight Aluminum.