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View Full Version : Difference between Fw-190 A-5 and the A-5 1.65 ata?



Ba5tard5word
02-16-2009, 11:36 PM
The game doesn't say what the difference is, also I have Hardball's aircraft viewer but unfortunately it leaves this one out.

Is there an aircraft viewing program that is 100% complete or at least mostly complete? Hardball's program is great but is missing a few entries.

jamesblonde1979
02-16-2009, 11:53 PM
I had a poke around and all I can come up with is Boost pressure. Another reference mentioned use of the ata as a Schalachtflieger (Fast-bomber?) and not as a fighter but this seems dubious.

Freiwillige
02-17-2009, 01:02 AM
Thats it. Once some of the bugs were worked out of the BMW 801 engine the BMW team with the Luftwaffe let the boost be increased to 1.65 ata or 1.65 atmospheres of positive pressure. Before they increased boost it was limited to 1.4 I beleive.

PanzerAce
02-17-2009, 01:48 AM
it's basically the high altitude variant, since the higher boost means that the performance isn't going to fall off quite as fast.

And freiwillige, you sure it's positive and not absolute?

DKoor
02-17-2009, 02:07 AM
"Common" FW-190A5 is faster at higher altitude than FW-190A5-1,65, while 1,65 is faster than 1,4 on deck.
Not such a big (speed) deal anyway.

JG53Frankyboy
02-17-2009, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
The game doesn't say what the difference is, also I have Hardball's aircraft viewer but unfortunately it leaves this one out.

Is there an aircraft viewing program that is 100% complete or at least mostly complete? Hardball's program is great but is missing a few entries.

get il2compare too

Daiichidoku
02-17-2009, 07:33 AM
1.65 Ata allows for that much power to be obtained from the engine, over the 1.42 Ata
as per 'normal' A5

the 1.65 Ata rating is only good up to 2000m, above that it drops back to 1.42 Ata

unless you are specifically looking at down-low ops, i wouldnt bother, as the 1.65 Ata version overheats much more readily than 1.42 Ata type

Xiolablu3
02-17-2009, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by PanzerAce:
it's basically the high altitude variant, since the higher boost means that the performance isn't going to fall off quite as fast.

And freiwillige, you sure it's positive and not absolute?

This is incorrect PanzerAce, I think you are thinking of Nitrous Oxide GM1 which is used at higher alts..

Like the higher boost Spitfires, higher boost only makes the plane faster BELOW full throttle height.

So that means the higher boost FW is faster at lower levels. (Any height lower than the height that the FW190A5 acheives its highest speed.)

Xiolablu3
02-17-2009, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
1.65 Ata allows for that much power to be obtained from the engine, over the 1.42 Ata
as per 'normal' A5

the 1.65 Ata rating is only good up to 2000m, above that it drops back to 1.42 Ata

unless you are specifically looking at down-low ops, i wouldnt bother, as the 1.65 Ata version overheats much more readily than 1.42 Ata type

I do actually find the 1.65 ATA useful, as you often have to dive for the deck and run in a FW190, and I found the extra speed on the deck helps you escape Spitfire IX's easier than the standard 1.42 ATA.

Ba5tard5word
02-17-2009, 09:55 AM
Alright gang, thanks.

any idea how much faster it is?

TX-Gunslinger
02-17-2009, 10:15 AM
Ba5tard5word -

Il2-Compare V4.07 by ROSS_Youss

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Il2%20FB%20Aircraft%20Performance/A5vsA51.65.jpg

Actual testing/verification by FatCat99

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Il2%20FB%20Aircraft%20Performance/FatCat_Speed.jpg

S~

Gunny

coyote40368
02-17-2009, 10:31 AM
Hardball's aircraft viewer does have the numbers for the 1.65 ata 190a5. Also the P-38L late, bf109 K4 C3 etc.

If you select the fw 190 A5 and hold the cursor over the "speed at sea level" text, for example, a box with the speed for the 1.65 ata version will pop up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
02-17-2009, 11:03 AM
You might find out if there's a difference in the props used in the IL2 models, the regular has a high speed prop.
Also the dates each becomes available.

A bomber version would have a wide blade prop wouldn't it?

Choctaw111
02-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
1.65 Ata allows for that much power to be obtained from the engine, over the 1.42 Ata
as per 'normal' A5

the 1.65 Ata rating is only good up to 2000m, above that it drops back to 1.42 Ata

unless you are specifically looking at down-low ops, i wouldnt bother, as the 1.65 Ata version overheats much more readily than 1.42 Ata type

I must ask. If the 1.65 is lost above 2,000M and behaves just like a standard 1.42, then what happens with the 1.42 at higher altitudes and why?

TX-Gunslinger
02-17-2009, 06:31 PM
Similar performace vs altitude characteristics, i.e. overboosted engine = better performance at lower altitudes traded for worse performance at higher altitude.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Il2%20FB%20Aircraft%20Performance/MkIXcLF%20vs%2025lb.gif

No wide blade props on any production 190 until D9 and A9 (and maybe F8/F9)

S~

Gunny

M_Gunz
02-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
1.65 Ata allows for that much power to be obtained from the engine, over the 1.42 Ata
as per 'normal' A5

the 1.65 Ata rating is only good up to 2000m, above that it drops back to 1.42 Ata

unless you are specifically looking at down-low ops, i wouldnt bother, as the 1.65 Ata version overheats much more readily than 1.42 Ata type

I must ask. If the 1.65 is lost above 2,000M and behaves just like a standard 1.42, then what happens with the 1.42 at higher altitudes and why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IL2Compare charts show it doesn't behave "just like" because the lines don't match. But above full gear height the
supercharger can't make full compression any more, the boost tapers off the same as the Max ROC by altitude shows.
Max Speed drops by more complex function is why those curve. The climb is a more direct measure of the power since speed
is kept more constant, thrust = power / speed so the faster the plane goes the less thrust for the same engine power,
speed curves are affected thus so climb gives more visible way to see. Top speed still increases with alt because the
thinner air makes less drag that is worth the square of that less drag while thrust drops off as 1x only. But climb is
not faster and faster so less slant even with the same physical benefit.

The 1.42 boost SC attains full heights at higher altitudes than the 1.65 boost SC. It's like running with drag race gears
as opposed to road race gears. Gonna hit the shifts sooner but gonna top out sooner as well.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-18-2009, 05:44 PM
It's slightly faster down low...but it overheats like a nympho in a bar at closing time.

I ALWAYS take the standard 1.42 if it's available. I guess because I'm a bit hard on the engine and the 1.65 bites back.

If you manipulate prop pitch and use boost only when really needed, it can save you on rare occasions.

HellToupee
02-21-2009, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Similar performace vs altitude characteristics, i.e. overboosted engine = better performance at lower altitudes traded for worse performance at higher altitude.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Il2%20FB%20Aircraft%20Performance/MkIXcLF%20vs%2025lb.gif

No wide blade props on any production 190 until D9 and A9 (and maybe F8/F9)

S~

Gunny

Actually they didn't trade performance at high altitude, it should match 18lbs curve at heights were 25lbs can't be attained, its based on performance data of a IX that was under performing when at 18lbs. Boosted A5 i suspect should also be the same.

Freiwillige
02-21-2009, 08:10 PM
You dont manipulate the prop pitch in a 190. The Kommandogerat did all the equasions for you and found the ideal prop pitch, fuel mixture and supercharger speed automaticly.

Only when that sytem was damaged could you or should you over ride the sytem to nurse your craft home.

This from wiki: One key advancement was the kommandogerät (command-device), a mechanical-hydraulic unit that automatically adjusted engine fuel flow, propeller pitch, supercharger setting, mixture and ignition timing in response to a single throttle lever, dramatically simplifying engine control.[1] This could be considered a pioneering step towards the use of computerised "engine management" systems, as in modern automobile and truck engines.

TX-Gunslinger
02-21-2009, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
You dont manipulate the prop pitch in a 190. The Kommandogerat did all the equasions for you and found the ideal prop pitch, fuel mixture and supercharger speed automaticly.

Only when that sytem was damaged could you or should you over ride the sytem to nurse your craft home.

This from wiki: One key advancement was the kommandogerät (command-device), a mechanical-hydraulic unit that automatically adjusted engine fuel flow, propeller pitch, supercharger setting, mixture and ignition timing in response to a single throttle lever, dramatically simplifying engine control.[1] This could be considered a pioneering step towards the use of computerised "engine management" systems, as in modern automobile and truck engines.

Sure. In a real 190 - or in the Mod A3.

As far as stock Il2-46, you'd better manipulate prop pitch in Antons (Dora shows no benefit) if you want best performance.

I used to post and write articles about this years ago... somewhere on M4T and around here in ancient 190 posts is an extremely well tested prop pitch formula - where, when and how.

I must say that I much prefer the mod A3 and it's historical implementation of the Kommandogerat that you describe.

S~

Gunny

TX-Gunslinger
02-21-2009, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
It's slightly faster down low...but it overheats like a nympho in a bar at closing time.

I ALWAYS take the standard 1.42 if it's available. I guess because I'm a bit hard on the engine and the 1.65 bites back.

If you manipulate prop pitch and use boost only when really needed, it can save you on rare occasions.

Best straight forward advice - right here.

I also don't use the 1.65 much, when I have a standard A5 available, unless I'm packing 4 X 50/1 X 500 load (U17 version which is in reality a G/F series Jabo).

S~

Gunny